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Nov 14, 08 - 01:15 pm Comment from: Macintosher

Cool. Yep, I agree. Pity he didn't mention that a PC will get groans, but a Mac will get "Hey, cool. I have one of those too!"

Nov 14, 08 - 01:15 pm Comment from: Macintosher

Sorry, just to clarify I agree with the article.

They forgot to mention that Windows is a turd.

@Reality Check

"- I've never had problems with Sleep in Windows since the mid 90's"

You must be the only one.

I've been maintaining Windows networks for well over 12 years and this is still a problem on various desktops and laptops no matter how clean the Windows installation.

I have yet to say the same about any Mac OS X machine I have maintained.

MDN Magic Word = "have". As in Windows would love to have what Mac OS X has in droves. Reliability.

Just to add to Reality Check:

5. Mac OS X + Windows is better than just Windows
- But also costs more!

7. A culture of good quality community software
- But there's far more softare for Windows.

8. More useful apps out of the box
- Obviously referring to iLife, and out of the box this is true. But Microsoft's quick download Windows Live products close this one up.

10. Apple doesn't load the system up with crap
- And in many cases, neither do PC manufacturers, anymore.


And the last 3 are just ridiculous.

Nov 14, 08 - 01:32 pm Comment from: ragarcia

I also have experienced a myriad of sleep related issue in Windows laptops. I admit, I haven't tried Vista yet, but it sure has been an issue with 2000 and XP on Dell and Toshiba laptops.

Realty Check makes some good points, and some dumb ones. One mistake he made was assuming the article was about OS X vs. Windows, and it's note.. it's about Apple Macs (the hardware + software) vs Windows PC (the hardware + software).

I agree that some of those 15 reasons can be replaced with better ones. There's still way more advantages of Macs over Windows PCs.

@Reality Check
1. Reliable sleep mode
- I've never had problems with Sleep in Windows since the mid 90's

WOOOOWW1 you must live in some kind of reverse parallel universe. Because in our 156 nodes network, all the windows machines has problems with sleep mode since EVER!!!.

I believe you concept of "Working" differs a little bit of the actually meaning of the word "Working".

Let me give you an example, for Mac users, the Sleep functionality is "WORKING" because if you put your mac to sleep, or if it sleeps by it self, you just move the mouse or press any key and it wakes up in no time fully operative. That is a definition of a feature that actually WORKS or is WORKING in Macs.

In PC, if the computer falls to sleep, If you get it to respond to the mouse or the keyboard, you have to wait a few minutes (it is better to have it turn off and then turn it on than put it to sleep). Once it "Wakes up", some parts of the screen does not refresh, and some applications are marked as "in use" even if they are close, and that os when the computer does not hangs during sleep mode.

Even that I am a Wintel Engineer, I prefer to use Mac and I use it at home because IT JUST WORKS!!!.

Nov 14, 08 - 01:38 pm Comment from: alansky

What is this moron talking about??? The race isn't even close at this point. Apple is pulling away. What is this crap about "still better"? Macs have always been better than Windows pc's. It's just that—in a stupid, brainwashed society—Macs had to be miles ahead before most pc users started to get the message. But the genie is out of the bottle. Microsoft is toast and, if the Windows peanut gallery were capable of being honest with themselves, they'd know it.

Poor choice of comparison. Mac refers to the hardware and Windows refers to software. This makes his blaming of hardware issues on Microsoft a mute point. Don't get me wrong. I still give Microsoft their dues of making the worst operating system I've used to date.

To Rality Check:

Im sure youve never had any problem with sleep in windows, the problem comes when you want to wake it up!

Bottom Line
Macs are just SNAPPY !

Wow...that list was pretty lame. Reality Check's counter was pretty good.

Anyone that has persistent sleep issues under Windows and still calls themselves a Windows administrator should be fired; if you don't know how to set AHCI parameters, don't call yourself a professional.

If these are the best reasons (most of them false) to persuade me to switch from a PC to a Mac, then forget it. Some of these comparisons might just about work if you were talking about XP running on an absolute budget piece of kit full of manufacturer's crapware, but put Vista on a computer costing the same as an iMac and there's only one choice for anybody not in thrall of the Apple b.s.

Nov 14, 08 - 02:27 pm Comment from: DLMeyer

Yeah ... Reality Check's counter was, for the most part, better than the lame article. Still ... not quite right.
Point 3, for example. Apple may be "a PC" these days, but they do a better job of making sure the parts they get are properly specked and working when they ship. MS is not in the hardware business, but those who build "PCs" scrabble hard to keep costs low - even if it means not being "too fussy".
Point 7, is debatable. There is more decent-quality software for Windows than for OSX. However, having a choice of good Word Processors is of questionable value. The fact that there is more absolute CRAP for Windows than all the software for OSX plus all the GOOD software for Windows, that's something I can do without. Most games that start out on Windows are of questionable quality, the best of these generally get to OSX ... eventually. The latest expansion for WoW was released for both platforms just yesterday.
Point 9, the article got right. Not that most of the more commonly used Windows settings are hard to locate, but many of the less common ones are well hidden.
Point 10 ... how to say this ... "really?". Most Macs come with iLife installed. This is a Good Thing for most of us and most of us would be willing to buy our copies and install them ourselves were this not the case. Two of the three people I helped switch are not interested. OK, one let's her boyfriend noodle with GB on occasion - he uses Logic on his own system.
The one Mac-related problem I've had was when I was wearing my "Mac Rocks" cap, recently, and was told I was brave for wearing it the day after the election. "Huh?" It's time to store it over the winter in any case.

"Linux command line" What??

Mac OS X is *not* Linux; It's for the most part BSD code with GNU and GNU-licensed stuff here and there. It pisses my off when people see a shell and assume it's Linux.

Nov 14, 08 - 02:42 pm Comment from: Roger Knights

There's a recent thread on http://www.AppleInsider.com called Reasons to Buy a Mac, at: http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=92663

Poster Nobody Special offered these:

1. There are zero viruses on the Mac
2. Comes pre-installed with industry-leading applications like iPhoto, iMovie and Time Machine for automated backups.
3. If necessary, it's possible to run Windows on a Mac
4. Apple Stores offer free technical support
5. Macs have the highest customer satisfaction ratings and are more reliable
6. Macs are widely considered easier to use—not just from a user interface point of view, but also when it comes to common tasks like networking
7. It's easier to instal and uninstall applications

Poster Trevowski said:

8. Most macs, (from an everyday user perspective),have a much longer life over PC's.
A PC machine must be updated every 2-3 years, macs 4-6 years.

9. MUUUUCH less upkeep, and a smoother OS

I continued the list with these (the last few are minor, obviously):

10. Higher resale value.
11. A more attractive upgrade path (to 64-bit Snow Leopard + Nvidia etc.).
12. Access to Unix under the hood.
13. Lower power consumption (on the Mini).
14. Quieter (often).
15. Trending "greener" (New MacBricks got a top environmental rating).
16. Company is the most financially secure (it's hiring, not firing or hire-freezing).
17. Sturdier (the MacBrick laptops, that is).
18. Better looking.

Nov 14, 08 - 03:01 pm Comment from: G4Dualie

How is it Reality Check manages to thoughtfully write that much and be the first poster?

Actually I'd complain about the sleep issues on the Mac. Honestly can't compare them to windows laptops, since I never had any of those, but waking from sleep is one of the issues I'm unhappy about with my MacBook. It's probably related to usb devices and external monitor, but that isn't an excuse in my eyes.
Also used to have issues with computer refusing to shutdown. I'm hoping Snow Leopard will improve these general reliability issues.

Nov 14, 08 - 03:15 pm Comment from: ken1w

#2 is mostly irrelevant because of #1.

#4 is just plain irrelevant.

It would appear that Jordan & Reality Check have a problem with understanding the article based on their replies. " Good quality community software " means LESS CRAP. Who wants more software if it's crap ? Answer this documented fact : Why does it take fewer techs to support an equally numbered base of Macs vs PCs ? Also, everyone on the planet knows that Vista is simply an over bloated piece of software. Roger Knights makes some very valid and important points in his reply.

@Reality Check:
"1. Reliable sleep mode
- I've never had problems with Sleep in Windows since the mid 90's"

Good for you. I never got it to work reliably and purposefully (for, say, noticeable longer battery life) on any Windows laptop I had.

"3. Apple uses good quality parts
- Apples are PC's these days. The components are identical. The difference is the case design and other "features" like back-lit keyboards, but part quality is the same. Hell, Apple uses the same Taiwan factory as Dell."

As others have said, Apple spends more on selecting the good bins on parts, and gets extra runs and slightly modified parts to fit on their custom made motherboards from the parts manufacturers. (Just look up and learn about the "Santa Rosa" MacBooks, that do not really feature Intel's Santa Rosa chipset -- but a modified, higher integrated, custom made for Apple chipset based on it.)

"4. Less blinking lights
- So what?"

Nearly none of the extra lights and buttons on all the Windows laptops I had in the past was ever useful for me (the only exception being the WiFi light, and that could have been removed if Windows had used a proper notification section on its toolbar, used properly by the driver programmers).

Now, I work in science and engineering and have to build prototypes for my science. I know that any extra light and button needs extra engineering, mounts, cables, and costs to implement. If I have a laptop where R&D;has spent all these extra expenses for things that fulfill no purpose (for me), but is still cheaper than a MacBook, I wonder where they have saved the extra money -- i.e., the important parts need to be 'junkier'. To pay for lights??

Careful... a few problems with your post:

8. More useful apps out of the box
- Very subjective statement. Out of which box? There's some fine Windows software out there - and also a load of dross.

The computer's box... as in, brand new machine.


10. Apple doesn't load the system up with crap
- Neither does Microsoft. That's a problem with 3rd party OEM's. I agree this is annoying, but it's not a Windows issue.

Comparison is with a PC, not Widows itself.

Nov 14, 08 - 03:58 pm Comment from: derekcurrie

Ignoring the trolls who have infected this thread:

This list is actually a bit lame.

It wimps out on the fact that Macs can be an order of magnitude easier and less expensive to support. (aka 10x less).

It completely neglects the fact that every professional study ever done comparing Mac versus Windows PC prices has established that Mac computers have been and continue to be cheaper than comparably outfitted Windows PC machines. These reports never make the lame-brain mistake of looking only at a computer's shelf price. Instead they take into account ALL cost factors, including those the occur after paying the shelf price. Specifically the full price of a computer includes:

1) Shelf Price
2) Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) - What you have to pay to get the computer running and keep it running so it does what you require.
3) Return On Investment (ROI) - What financial benefit you derive from the computer over the lifetime of the computer.

It is consistently amazing how Windows PC buyers think only of the cost of the box at the shop without considering its hardware and operating system quality and how that quality will impact their lives financially.

@Reality Check:
"1. Reliable sleep mode
- I've never had problems with Sleep in Windows since the mid 90's"

Lucky you, my ThinkPad has serious sleeping issues and there's no rhyme or reason.

Well, there's a very interesting sub-article at Anandtech, by Anand Lal Shimpi, that shows Windows Vista, kills the battery life in a Pissy notebook twice as fast as a Mac. This is a BIG difference. And, this observation has yet to be widely noted.

http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=3435&p=13

Some of the comments above are obviously from IT's and techies, which the majority of users are not. The best technology are tools that make people's tasks easier not harder. The majority of computer users do NOT know "work arounds" or have other solutions for the annoyances and frustration when using Windows. Having worked with Wintels at work and Macs at home for 10+ years it's amazes me to see how much frustration Windows users are willing to put up with or how much time Windows users will invest trying to find a "work around." I still use a 5-year old PowerBook G4, and it still works smoothly for web browsing, email, word processing, consumer-level photo and video-editing, and managing my music collection. My experience has been that I am constantly trying to make my Wintel PC work for me, and that's seems to be a typical PC experience for many, probably, most consumers and end users at the workplace. When it comes to computers, Apple just gives the user a better technology; better tools to work with.

Nov 14, 08 - 04:31 pm Comment from: since1985

@ Reality Check:

It is clear by many of your answers, such as this:

"13. Apple seems largely to be lameness free
- Not at all clear what this means?"

that you didn't even read the article.

@Reality Check

@Victor - see the link I gave above. MacOS has its own fair share of sleep issues too.

I insist, you must be living in a reverse parallel universe. With all do respect, I am not talking about "Links" (by the way, I did not see yours). I am not talking about what other say/ I am talking about my personal experience in the enterprise and Home. I have always used Mac at Home and I have NEVER had issues with the "Sleep" mode, not even my partners in the Mac support division in here. And I have 12 years working with Windows in the enterprise and we had ALWAYS have problems with Windows sleep mode.

Nov 14, 08 - 06:49 pm Comment from: Mac Daddy

With a Mac, you don't need to know this:

"if you don't know how to set AHCI parameters..."

just to get the damned sleep function to work.

Nov 14, 08 - 07:14 pm Comment from: CYxodus

1. Reliable sleep mode
- I can't tell you how many times I couldn't wake Windows up from sleep mode.

4. Less blinking lights
- I have some computers in my bedroom and there are so many blinking lights on my Windows PC that I have to cover the lights. The blue light on the front is so bright that I can do shadow puppets with it from across the room.

6. Easier to troubleshoot Macs
- That's what I hear from the Roadrunner techs all the time.

7. A culture of good quality community software
- That is so true. Mac apps just work and have style.

8. More useful apps out of the box
- iLife blows everything Windows has out of the box away.

10. Apple doesn't load the system up with crap
- One of the reasons I love Apple. Every windows PC I've owned has been loaded down with junkware.

12. Still no need for additional security software
- Who would willing use an OS that's a hacker's paradise. Btw, if the Mac was as unstable as Windows, the MS trolls would have created something long ago to shut us up.

13. Apple seems largely to be lameness free
- Everyday that I'm forced to use Windows, I discover something wrong with Windows.

perhaps i have yet to post a similar comment on the mdn boards, though i find it hard to believe: "15 reasons apple macs are still better..." it really isn't so difficult. is it...

@ G4Dualie:

"How is it Reality Check manages to thoughtfully write that much and be the first poster?"

Hear! Hear!... Microsoft´s new stragedy is to infiltrate and change the mind of the the Apple community and it´s fanboys, via suttle comments and an increasing number of clever trolls. Some of these comments and trolls are the work of Microsoft. Microsoft knows that the best thing Apple has going for them is the grassroots and the hype on the internet and forums like these.

There is so much at stake for Microsoft, that this is a plausible explenation. Money talks. Microsoft is hurting right now and they now know, that they have to be creative in their marketing. I think they have a division that is paid to solely roam the Apple related forums to spread bad carma. This would be good buisness for Microsoft.

I don´t think I´m imagining this. I have never seen so much bad mouthing regarding Apple products and so "well orchestrated" in these forums before...

I could be wrong. But I don´t think so...!!!

Ps: I know Apple has grown to a size where they are likely to be targeted more. And I´m not talking about the matte/glossy and firewire issues either...!!!
No!, the flood of trolls just tells me, that there is something else going on...

Mac user = Cultured, refined. well mannered individual. (OK you can call us gay if you don't get it)

Windows user = Bogan.

As far as I can see, he missed my two biggest gripes with Windows:

1 Having to re-install all your apps if you have to do a system install

2 Having to see the word Microsoft a bazillion times a day. Are they really that insecure about their software or do they need to keep reminding themselves.

think a big reason why macs are better is because of it's low power consumption. My iMac reaches epeat silver environmental standards, and the new macbooks meet epeat gold. I go to a school that is packed with dells and I wonder how much power the computers are consuming, because they're on all of the time. Apple hardware isn't the same as any other of hardware. It meets high standards of quality and cleanly integrates with it's operating system.

@CYxodus


4. Less blinking lights
- I have some computers in my bedroom and there are so many blinking lights on my Windows PC that I have to cover the lights. The blue light on the front is so bright that I can do shadow puppets with it from across the room.

I too have that same problem.

@Reality Check,

Thanks for taking the time to post that. A few mistakes but all in all, a much needed perspective to what otherwise is an All Apple All the Time web site.

Windows sucks and Apple is a great company but it really is their Operating System built to work with hardware they control the manufacture of that makes the difference.

I read this site for breaking news items. Everything else is biased BS that may or may not be completely true.

Say MDN, what happened to all those daily reports on Apple's (AAPL) stock price? Hmmmmmmm????????

Lights, lights - it's all about the lights. Here's my lights saga:
(I have an office/bedroom combined)
On my HP printer I've covered the LCD screen, the on/off button and the wireless indicator light - semi-permanently.
When I go to sleep, I pull the mag-power from my MBPro, unmount my two backup drives, cover the blinking sleep light with my wrist-rest, as well as the blinking light on my Medion laptop.
THEN the room is dark enough.
Good night - sleep tight.
)