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He must think Google Chrome is hideously ugly, too. The Safari 4 GUI is virtually identical to it on Windows.

Feb 28, 09 - 04:36 pm Comment from: Arnold Ziffel

Pish tosh! There's nothing that says the tabs have to be on the bottom of the titlebar. It's purely a preference thing.

I did restore the progress bar, but using 4 without it was not a deal breaker nor close to being a deal breaker for me.

If folks like those at Apple didn't try new ideas, we'd never get anywhere. Pushing the boundaries of what is considered the norm, including making many mistakes, is the only way to discover a new way of doing things.

I hope this stuff coming out of Apple is not a result of Steve Jobs absence.

Feb 28, 09 - 04:41 pm Comment from: Macintosher

This reminds me of the Apple Newton: half-way to a good thing, but bad enough at this point to be slated by technophobe journalists and so it'll have to be reinvented.

Think Newton>iPhone and so Safari 4 Tab Bar>Some great concept which forgives and forgets.

"$ defaults write com.apple.Safari DebugSafari4TabBarIsOnTop -bool NO
$ defaults write com.apple.Safari DebugSafari4IncludeToolbarRedesign -bool NO
$ defaults write com.apple.Safari DebugSafari4LoadProgressStyle -bool NO"

You're right! Macs are so much easier to use than PCs!

Feb 28, 09 - 04:46 pm Comment from: Crunch n Munch Cheese Wafflez

I like the new tabs. Safari 4 has been a joy for me to use.

"$ defaults write com.apple.Safari DebugSafari4TabBarIsOnTop -bool NO
$ defaults write com.apple.Safari DebugSafari4IncludeToolbarRedesign -bool NO
$ defaults write com.apple.Safari DebugSafari4LoadProgressStyle -bool NO"


Yes, a gorgeous, delicious, sexy and elegant solution!!!

Feb 28, 09 - 05:01 pm Comment from: MacSmiley

I agree with the author of this article. Tabs on the top make sense in Google's browser because each webpage is supposed to have its own isolated memory. IOW, each page IS its own application, and one page getting hung is not supposed to affect other pages.

I hear tell that Apple is trying to make Safari on the desktop more like Safari on the iPhone. However, the desktop and the iPhone are two different contexts that have nothing to do with each other.

Tabs on the top make sense in a recipe box on the kitchen counter. On the desktop, they makes me feel seasick.

Feb 28, 09 - 05:06 pm Comment from: The Other Steve

Of all the advances to Safari 4 including blazing fast speeeeeed, he thinks it is a disaster because of . . . tabs?

1. This guys reviewing skills (or maybe computer skills) need to improve to include more that what color paint it is.

2. Holwerda should grab a dictionary and lookup the meaning of beta software. Apple released a public beta so they can get feedback. If they get enough they will make the change.

3. That said, if Safari's tabs are going to get ALL the headlines then Apple should make the old and new tabs available in preferences and let individual users decide.

Let's be honest here - Apple has got it wrong with the new tabs. I've been using Macs for nearly 20 years so I recognize good UI when I see it. I've tried for a few days now to work with the new tab system but today I converted it to the old Safari 3 style.

It was just too hard to quickly close more than one tab at a time with quick clicks as they jump all over the title bar. Also, the favourites web display page looks very slick but, in all honesty, don't we already have our 10-12 most used web sites already listed in the title bar?

It's still a worthy upgrade though if only for the improvements in speed and page loads.

Being Safari isn't just for Macs your sarcastic comment doesn't make much sense.

All you have to do is cut and paste those command lines into Terminal and restart Safari. Seems pretty easy to me.

Explain how to do the same thing for Windows.

Feb 28, 09 - 05:13 pm Comment from: HMCIV

I'm guessing Apple will make the tabs location a preference, unless they have a grand plan in mind.

Feb 28, 09 - 05:14 pm Comment from: coolfactor

I think the new tabs are not that bad. I'm used to them now. They are nothing more than auto-tiled windows all sandwiched together into a single window. Nobody complained about the concept of tiling windows. I think the new tabs will grow on people as they realize they're not that big of a step from the UI conventions we're already used to.

i miss the blue progress bar in address field too

Feb 28, 09 - 05:16 pm Comment from: coolfactor

So having said that, I think this is how tabs should've been from the start.

We have a socialist jackass in the White House destroying everything and all we have to worry about is Apple put tabs on the top of the window. Too cute.

Sorry to say I like the new tabs. Of course I always thought the title bar was a horrible waste of real estate.

opinions are like assholes
everybody's got one

Feb 28, 09 - 05:25 pm Comment from: Arnold Ziffel

@Bob,

Obama's not just a socialist--he's a Communist, a fascist, and a secret Muslim.

Come on, get your Right Wing talking points down, sir!

I don't understand the hubbub. I think the new tabs are great if simply for the added realestate when at full screen. And as for the moving hit points, seems moot to me as I would assume many so called 'power-users' such as myself hardly use the mouse for much in the way of browser manipulation. I can't imagine clicking to close tabs over the apple+w shortcut. Once I mapped apple+k for the search bar, I had no problems switching from firefox to safari 4.

I honestly don't understand the big deal everyone is making about the tabs. I like the UI changes in Safari 4, including having the tabs on top.

No matter how Apple updates the UI, there's always someone out there who wants it back the way it used to be.

It's a Beta, People. If Safari 4 turns out to be a lead balloon they can change it.

After a day of trying the new UI, I also reverted my tabs to their original location and restored the blue progress bar. Not only did the dragging issues drive me nuts (not a far drive... walking distance actually), but it really bothered me that I had to do extra mousing to reach the tabs on top. Yes, that extra inch of mousing really annoyed me.

But I did appreciate the attempt to open up more browser height. So how about putting the tabs on the left side of the window? Screens now are much wider than they are tall. Take advantage of that. Of course, that might also mean additional mousing that I wont like.

Feb 28, 09 - 05:34 pm Comment from: Eric

Disaster?

Hardly... I consider it a solid improvement. In fact, the tabs where they WERE before was always my #1 complaint about Safari... The title bar seemed like a waste of space to me, especially on a notebook display. The tabs on top makes MUCH more sense to me. My two other complaints had to do with history and bookmarks. The Safari 4 beta fixes the history complaint perfectly fine for me. Work on the bookmarks and I'd be perfectly happy.

That said, on Windows, I do not think it works as well... considering the translucent title bar... but that translucent bar itself is not something I like much... I just tolerate it at work as I have no choice (GPOs make it required. can't turn it off).

Safari 4 deign and UI is excellent, and the new tab bar location feels intuitive. I like it. Pages load faster and there have been none of the page-loading "hangs" that plagued Safari 3. Page display consistency across open tabs, and consistency of font-size-selection, across open pages, is buggy. That should get worked out in due course.

Feb 28, 09 - 05:39 pm Comment from: Arnold Ziffel

Only socialists like tabs on the top.

Also worth mentioning is that command-clicking on the title bar (or tab bar now) now longer gives a hierarchy of the address. This is a step backward!

It's a beta.

Losers.

Feb 28, 09 - 05:48 pm Comment from: MacBill

Totally agree with MDN's take on this. Safari 4's UI is a disaster. Thank GOD we can switch things back to the way they used to be!!

Feb 28, 09 - 05:48 pm Comment from: ericdano

I dunno, I hated the top tabs, but now that I've used them it is nicer. I can see ever so slightly more webpage without tabs taking space there.

The title bar was kind of dead space anyways.......and if you have Safari 4 in its own Space (via spaces), then it makes more sense to have tabs in the title bar.

Feb 28, 09 - 05:49 pm Comment from: cptnkirk

I like the tab location. It's especially nice to reclain some screen real estate since my only Mac is a MBP. You guys on iMacs have lots of screen real estate. those of us who must live on the smaller screen appreciate this thoughtfulness.

Quite the opposite to me...I found the tabs-on-top thing (both Chrome and Safari) to be a very clever use of screen space.

Anyhow, it would be good to have it as an option...

Regardless of the tabs, all the other improvements quite justify the update.

Cheers!

Feb 28, 09 - 05:51 pm Comment from: Big Als MBP

If you need the tabs in the same place on every update or you'll resort to 'ResEdit' them back where you want them then you have more problems than just tab placement.

You're getting old and set in your ways. You'll never change. New things will always piss you off. Innovations will continue to scare you. Paranoia will take over your life.

You may as well kill yourself now. You're already half dead.

Feb 28, 09 - 05:51 pm Comment from: Hg Wells

I also miss the blue (or whatever color we choose) progress bar. But I'm getting used to the tabs. It is true that it is a bit harder to drag the whole window around without being careful where we grab.

One reason I like the new tabs on top is that, when there are multiple windows open, you can offset the windows to see the tabs on all the open windows. Before, tabs on other windows were hidden. I'm getting used to the new tabs. Those people who made a snap judgement that they hated them and abandoned them without giving it a few solid days really did not give themselves a chance to get used to them. Of course, some people don't adapt to change well...

I second that, it's a BETA.
Maybe in the final version, switching between tab look will be placed in Prefs

don't know what the problem is, I actually like the tabs on top


i occasionally move my window when i wanted to move a tab but that's just getting used to something different

One thing different that I haven't seen anyone else mention is that it appears each tab is also running its own process. At work I used to be able to log in once on Safari and all my tabs worked for our companies intranet, now I have to sign in for each one. Annoying in the sign-in aspect but more robust in others.

I too reverted to the old style tabs for a couple of days but am now trying out the new style. Some confusing differences to work out but not a game changer by any means. Like most new UI tweaks it may take awhile to get used to, but then bob's your uncle.

Gotta love the we-want-things-to-stay-exactly the-same-way-they-were thinking of the "Mac" people here. "Think different!" Or, you know, not.

Might as well be Windows lemmings begging to keep XP. Sheesh!

Feb 28, 09 - 05:59 pm Comment from: Hg Wells

On the other hand, it's been crashing, especially when I have a lot of tabs and windows opened. It doesn't always "Reopen All Windows" from the previous session sometimes just opening untitled windows. Of course, that's because my entire history also gets wiped out.

It's a beta, of course. And I'm not going to stop using it.

"I like the new tabs. Safari 4 has been a joy for me to use."

I agree - the tabs are fine. If you want a preference that puts them somewhere else, fine with me, but I like 'em where they are. Please tone down the cheap rhetoric - the world did not come to an end because they moved the tabs.

"It's highly likely that we use the Safari web browser more than, or at least as much as, any living person. 16, 18, and even more hours per day."

Hence the distinct lack of perspective.

Maybe it's because I use a laptop with only 854 vertical pixels, but I like saving as much vertical space as possible, so having tabs on top in the unused header area is something I like.

Feb 28, 09 - 06:21 pm Comment from: DLMeyer

OK, I don't usually use Tabs. I'm retired and can afford to have one browser window open at a time. So, MOST of the time the new design steals real estate from me. As soon as I pop open a second Tab - several times a week - the new scheme saves me real estate. No Big Deal either way. Especially since I'll be getting one of the next-gen 24" iMacs ASAP.
Several people have spoken along the lines of "the current switch-back is TOO HARD". Why did you wusses get a Unix machine if you don't have the chops to make it dance? Oh, right, same reason my wife did ... it makes her life easier. Well, there were comments on THAT as well ... put this in the PREFs.
As for the author ... I'll quote a NuYawka: "Fageddaboudit". Hope I spelled that right. Sure. A "UI Disaster" ... IF you hate it. Soo ... change the Prefs? What if you LIKE it? What if you Just Don't CARE? <Yawn!>
One more quote: "It's A Beta!". And figuring these things out is one of the things they want to know about. So they ask. And twits get all flustered and upset because the LOOK changed. What would he have said if they'd adopted the drawer seen in OmniWeb (I like that, too)?

Feb 28, 09 - 06:22 pm Comment from: Andy

Personally, I don't understand the reaction about the tabs. Okay, they aren't to everyone's taste -- and there is the Terminal workaround -- but should that mean Apple must cease all further development on Safari?

Innovation typically brings change, remember. The change isn't always good, granted, but that's the nature of the beast. If the anti-tabs-on-top people are a minority, who do you think Apple will listen to?

Arguably, if people had their way, we'd still be stuck in the 1990s tech wise; isn't that fact alone the reason why Microsoft is in such tragic shape? It's also why Steve (and others like him) is so important.

I never used the tabs in Safari 3, I dislike them in Firefox, Like them better in 4. I just don't use them, I would like the option to turn tabs off if I don't want them

I love the new tab position.

I hope they use this in other apps too.

The new tab position will make sense when more web applications are released. Trust me Apple knows best.

If nobody bitches about it, then they're not being bold enough. I remember a lot of griping about Aqua at the beginning, too.

-jcr

I like the new tab location. It's not that hard to get used to and saves a lot of space.

Feb 28, 09 - 06:29 pm Comment from: CourtJester

Preferences Preferences. Thats the ideal solution.

But after living with them a few days I happen to have become accustomed to Tabs on top.

The Windows version looks dreary and old fashioned though. Not Apples faul;t though if that's what Windows surfers are used too.

Feb 28, 09 - 06:30 pm Comment from: John E

OMG! tabs on top! Hurricane Katrina!! 1906 Earthquake !!! Atomic Bombs!!!! Total Disaster!!!!!

Mr. Thom Holwerda really needs to get over himself. the whole world, even just the world of computing UI's, is not about his petty likes/dislikes.

why does MDN link to this kind of junk?

"It was just too hard to quickly close more than one tab at a time with quick clicks as they jump all over the title bar. "

Psst: command-w

-jcr

. . . and watch Safari grab even more browser market share.

LOL, I love these meaningless articles. The non-Apple industry just can't stand the fact that Apple's getting it right, has been doing so for the past few years, and will continue to do so.

The competition is just squirming with Apple-envy. But we're used to to that by now . . .