MacDailyNews - Where Mac news comes first

Dec 04, 09 - 03:35 pm Comment from: ElderNorm

"and what I haven't been able to find yet is an argument that says Apple absolutely needs Verizon in 2010 in order to retain profitable iPhone success."

BINGO.

Just a thought,
en

Dec 04, 09 - 03:37 pm Comment from: El Guapo

"Live and Let Die"

With all the money that Apple has why not invest big time in the AT&T;network. I want the best and fastest coverage there can be.

Dec 04, 09 - 03:41 pm Comment from: Predrag

For that matter, they don't need anyone else besides AT&T.

All those saying "Bring it to Verizon and watch it fly off the shelves" imply that iPhone is currently somehow collecting dust on the shelves of AT&T. Well, it isn't. The inventory is as tight as it could possibly be, with frequent out-of-stock situations in many locations throughout US.

Only when iPhone begins lagging behind some other device, or when the inventory begins growing, will Apple be in a situation to begin exploration of other carriers in the US. This is DEFINITELY not going to happen in 2010.

Apple needs to open up the iPhone to another carrier in the US, but it does not have to be Verizon. I'm sure Sprint or T-Mobile will offer lucrative contracts and AT&T;would not feel so threatened.

Verizon's recent ads seem to make it pretty clear that they aren't getting the iPhone anytime soon.

I think it'd be extremely interesting if the iPhone were to become available to everyone except Verizon starting mid-2010. Verizon would quickly become "the island of misfit smartphone wannabes".

Dec 04, 09 - 03:48 pm Comment from: G4Dualie

Apple needs cooperative partnerships who are willing to build on the user experience. I can't imagine what Apple would have done if AT&T had turned them away.

Personally, I think they might have acquired the rights to an MNVO and turned it into a subsidiary, just as they did with Claris.

Is there a satellite in Apple's future? One that would work exclusively with the new data center in NC to provide content to its customers? Would that negate the need for the intertubes and the gatekeepers?

The competition will take a long time, if ever, to develop a product fully competitive with the capabilities of the iPhone. Just think how long it will take to develop a competing OS that is equal Mac OS X.

Actually, it would be in AT&T;'s best interests to let Verizon have the iPhone. If it crippled the Verizon network as much as it has AT&T;'s, then AT&T;might actually get a boost in consumer confidence (relatively speaking).

Verizon only gets iPhone after it goes G4, and even then not certain...

Dec 04, 09 - 03:52 pm Comment from: HughB

You Girly men will continue to buy iPhones and so will Girly Girls. But manly men will get Droids. Looks like is already happening, AAPL is tanking again today. I got it from Arnold.

The problem with going to Verizon is having a different type of iPhone to work on their network. No problem at Verizon and AT&T;stores which would only stock their version, but that would mean the Apple store would be selling both. What happens on launch day when your Apple store sells out of the Verizon model, but still has plenty AT&T;models? A lot of bad blood towards Apple.

I don't see Apple doing this until they can sell one phone that can work on either network. Then after you choose your iPhone, you can choose which carrier and which plan you want to go with.

T-mobile would get the iPhone because they are GSM signal. No new hardware or software writing would need to be done and would be nice to force at&t;to down the prices a bit.

It's hard to believe that Apple would not negotiate their contract with AT&T;. Yes they might play a little hard ball about when they would do that, forcing AT&T;'s hand by forcing them to spread the 3G around more vastly and upgrade their network to capacity of users for a better experience.

Just don't get all hyped up about analyst on apple, but this is true, Apple doesn't need Verizon AT ALL. They've made a huge success and AT&T;gave them the springboard to jump and make a world wide splash with just trust in innovation.

I like the circle of trust Steve Jobs is working in. Apple - Disney - AT&T;. The Innovator, Entertainment provider, Dumb pipe distributor. If you haven't seen how close Disney and AT&T;work go to the parks, especially EPCOT.

Dec 04, 09 - 04:11 pm Comment from: clinicaltechmaster

Verizon needs a new CEO, management, and board of directors.
It is bad business to not make friends in the business world.

Dec 04, 09 - 04:16 pm Comment from: thethirdshoe

@Hug h. B
Anyone named Hug is Girly.

Dec 04, 09 - 04:17 pm Comment from: clinicaltechmaster

Verizon customers should have the right to have an iPhone if they want one.
Apple may not need Verizon but Verizon customers need iPhones.

Piss on Verizon. CDMA is nothing put a pile of crap. The world is running GSM based networks.

Yes they do so the fine people of ND can finally get an iPhone!

Dec 04, 09 - 04:27 pm Comment from: G4Dualie

@Predrag

All those saying "Bring it to Verizon and watch it fly off the shelves"

Perhaps, but not solely for the reason you've stated. It's a given Apple customers will pay a premium, and Apple will continue to make money off those who will buy anything Apple, no matter what.

Just as it is with the Macintosh, Apple was never in competition with Dell, HP, IBM, or even Microsoft, Apple is in competition with itself, and is only as good as its last product. They have a captive audience of loyal consumers who have kept the company alive through even the thinnest of periods.

PC people are always storming in here laughing about some new Apple tech that has been passe in the PC world for years. Unfortunately, what they perceive in us as first-rights bragging is really just cheering because it is new! Its new to Apple and to us. Many of us Apple folk don't follow PC, or techno-trends, and when Apple finally brings that tech to us, its new and in many cases cause for celebration.

Something changed at Apple with the return of Jobs. He stopped burning bridges, being revengeful, and has made every attempt to embrace the PC community, as evidenced by the number of Apple products that are now available to Windows users.

Apple has begun to think globally, trying to broaden its vertical market. You said it yourself, as long as Apple keeps doing what it's doing, they'll be just fine, living off its faithful customer base.

Now, the last time I checked, the cost to re-configure the iPhone to accommodate CDMA was about eleven-cents per unit. That's pennies invested for a handsome return, however, by the time Apple ramps up production to support CDMA, it will have been replaced by latest technology.

Even if the iPhone experience wasn't exactly the same on Verizon or Sprint compared to AT&T; no selective mail editing, multi-threading, etc., that is all the more reason for those carriers to upgrade their services to better compete, and for Apple to offer them the iPhone. Without the incentive to upgrade their network, how is Apple going to change the world, if they don't keep improving the iPhone experience?

As long as there is a carrier out there who doesn't have an iPhone, shouldn't that compel Apple to want to sell them one, even if it means using the iPhone in its current configuration as leverage to get Verizon to move towards a global standard?

I wonder if Verizon is even considering do those things AT&T has done to its network to accommodate the iPhone's feature-set?

I have said all along, the iPhone will find its way onto all the carriers eventually. Maybe not next year, but once the iPhone has gained world-wide popularity, the carriers are going to ask themselves what do WE have to do to get our hands on that phone.

Dec 04, 09 - 04:28 pm Comment from: G4Dualie

@Grrrilla

you are exactly right.

With Verizon - you won't be able to use iTunes as they will lock it out so you can use their shit. They will cripple the Bluetooth as well.

Dec 04, 09 - 04:30 pm Comment from: grognard

Because of GSM Sprint can't be on the list of possible providers. T-Mobile is the only other carrier, And even with that, Apple would have to tweak their radio band to include T-mobile's 1700 band, but that's relatively minor compared to adding the old and obsolete CDMA chip. Let's hope AT&T;and T-mobile expand the 3G networks to work in places like New York and San Francisco, where most of the complaints come from.

Apple will open it up to T-mobile before Verizon. I think Steve Jobs has already told Verizon to go piss off, this is why they are making nasty Droid commercials. Verizon told Steve to go piss of when he came to them with the iPhone idea and Steve-O will have his revenge. Just ask Michael Dell what it is like to be in Mr. Job's cross hairs.

Verizon has become the biggest case of denial in corporate history.
Yo! V?
Suck it up, grow a pair then run a series of commercial saying;

"We effed up. Apple had a game changer, iPhone was visionary, and we blew it bigger than camel nutz."

I guarantee you, if they did so, they'd prevent further loss of face and might even slow the tide of defections from their pathetically lame 1980's tech network.

Dec 04, 09 - 04:35 pm Comment from: HMCIV

Reminder to pundit investors: Apple is not in it for the market share.

Dec 04, 09 - 04:36 pm Comment from: G4Dualie

@Grrrilla

As long as Verizon is without an iPhone, they can prop up any failure and point fingers at its competition and say whatever they like and no one can question it, especially Verizon customers.

Once the iPhone is on all carriers we can stop talking about the iPhone and begin to focus on what really matters; the carrier's service.

Dec 04, 09 - 04:45 pm Comment from: Jim - TIV

iPete... I've been to North Dakota. The only thing there is Cows and Missile Silos. They need an early warning system more than iPhones.

If ND seceded from the union it would be the third largest nuclear power in the world.

Dec 04, 09 - 04:46 pm Comment from: G4Dualie

@whatever

With Verizon - you won't be able to use iTunes as they will lock it out so you can use their shit. They will cripple the Bluetooth as well.

That is exactly what AT&T will use as fodder for their marketing campaign if, and whenever, iPhone comes to Verizon.

There is no denying Apple has been good for the PC world also. Apple takes the stage and the world listens and before long everyone is emulating Apple.

Remember when Intel introduced USB and the PC world took a pass on it because they loved their parallel ports? Apple comes out with USB and suddenly it is the de facto standard on PC's, cameras, printers, scanners, you name it.

Dec 04, 09 - 04:59 pm Comment from: G4Dualie

@moo

You're right, Verizon should just admit to themselves and their shareholders, they screwed up big time. They should be groveling at Apple, instead of creating an even bigger awkward moment for their future meeting with Apple, Inc.

Can you imagine how different all of these arguments would be if Verizon had agreed to Jobs' conditions?

We'd all be arguing the merits of GSM right now. But, still complaining about the shitty CDMA service on Verizon, waiting for LTE. It would have taken a few years for any of us to realize the true potential of the iPhone.

Dec 04, 09 - 05:00 pm Comment from: chaz

The only ones who want it to come to Verizon are those who for some reason can't change providers.

I have said before, that iPhone will be on all other networks except Verizon in the US. Apple and Verizon will only team up if there is a significant culture change (say senior management) at Verizon.

They treat their employees and vendors like crap and expect them to like it.

Apple won't enter that type of relationship. Two can't make love and both be on top.

Dec 04, 09 - 05:06 pm Comment from: Predrag

G4 Dualie:

The problem is, Apple will NEVER allow an inconsistent iPhone experience. iPhone is unique in that its feature set is identical no matter where you go. Belgian iPhone looks and works EXACTLY the same as Swiss, or French, or Senegalese (all with French interface, obviously), and the only current exception is China, which has no WiFi. Otherwise, Apple won't allow restricted or missing functionality due to the shortcomings of a carrier.

The primary reason for not offering it on ANY other carrier in the US is not going away anytime soon. As I had said earlier: iPhones are flying off the shelves. Apple can't make them fast enough, even with only AT&T as the carrier. It would be foolish to try expanding, when the demand already exceeds the supply.

Until demand slows down, Apple will be happy with only AT&T. If you don't like AT&T and can only do Verizon, you may as well get your Droid now.

Apple is a global player; they have never needed Verizon.

Dec 04, 09 - 05:19 pm Comment from: MacBill

Whoa whoa whoa, "carrier choice may be good for consumers"? Not when the carrier (i.e. Verizon) deliberately tries to cripple and control the iPhone experience. Verizon is the most anti-consumer carrier in the nation. Apple is pro-consumer which is why they stayed away from Verizon. Verizon turned down the iPhone because they wanted to run their own overpriced lousy app store instead of Apple's, because they wanted to ship the iPhone WITHOUT WIFI so that customers would pay them for exorbitant cell data rates, because they refused to upgrade their network to allow for visual voicemail. They want to force their customers to pay for every MB of downloads, they want their customers to pay exorbitant fees on minor things like ringtones, they want their customers to pay $350 for cancelling their contracts. Verizon is the one who even came up with the idea of charging a per-message rate for text messages. And Verizon is leading the fight to ABANDON net neutrality. And the CEO publicly stated that "Steve Jobs is getting old... I like our chances." Verizon is as evil as they come. Good for Apple to stay FAR FAR FAR away from Verizon.

Dec 04, 09 - 05:23 pm Comment from: sgdovev

One thing I don't think people are mentioning is that as a current iPhone owner, I HATE AT&T;. I would love nothing more than to use this incredible device on a network like Verizon that works better as I'm told by friends who use it.

So, it's not only to get new customers, it's about keeping current customers happy.

Dec 04, 09 - 05:24 pm Comment from: iSteve

Apple needs a second carrier for those parts of the US where ATT lacks coverage.

Apple doesn't need Verizon because they've got millions of American customers disgusted with their service who won't do anything about it.

Just like the Consumer Reports survey said, 98% of iPhone customers want to stay with ATT, despite their negative feelings about said carrier, and buy another iPhone.

There's no pressure for Apple to lose profits (care of lower iPhone subsidies) with a multi-carrier strategy in the US when iPhone customers are so willing to take it up the ass.

I hate Verizon customer service or lack of it... Plus Verizon has to control the Phones always crippling them to nickel dime their customers.

@ R2 - Speak for yourself. My AT&T experience has been flawless with the iPhone. No signal problems, no dropped calls, no voicemail problems.

So be sure to factor people like me into that 98%, before you start making sweeping generalizations.

Dec 04, 09 - 06:56 pm Comment from: HughB

R2
I did not read it that 98% want to stay with ATT. I read it that 98% would buy the iPhone again. I am pretty sure that a fairly big number would like to leave ATT. I happen to have good 3G coverage at home and around town. No complaints here, but I know folks who have trouble with their ATT signal.

Dec 04, 09 - 07:52 pm Comment from: emmayche

Fact 1: Verizon recently announced a policy that opened their network to "any compatible device."

Fact 2: AT&T, Verizon, and T-Mobile are all transitioning to LTE-based 4G networks, starting over the next 18 months or so.

Fact 3: You can bet that an upcoming version of the iPhone will work with LTE networks. LTE is faster than anything else currently out there (with the possible exception of Sprint's WiMax).

Conclusion: When LTE comes out on Verizon, you'll be able to use an iPhone with Verizon. Whether you'll have visual voicemail or other carrier-dependent features is a good question, but the phone will (at that time) work.

Another reason why the world doesn't need iPhone from CRAPple.

http://www.bing.com When it comes to decisions that matter, Bing & Decide

Dec 04, 09 - 09:17 pm Comment from: joey

Apple needs Verizon like I need another a**hole!

Dec 04, 09 - 09:39 pm Comment from: m159

My wife and I both moved from Verizon, me at the first iPhone introduction. My wife recently switched to get the 3Gs, and is amazed. She got a call from Verizon the other day. "We really value you as a customer, etc. Is there anything we could have done to keep you?"

"No, nothing," she said, "it's all about the iPhone."

Is it any wonder their advertising is getting vicious?

"Verizon Wireless" (see Stockholm Syndrome)

I get so much amusement from people praising the day LTE lights up. I've seen the roadmaps from all carriers and a major metro rollout if not planned into well into 2011 .. and read this slowly as many of you here clearly have no concept of how carrier networks function:

YOU WILL NEED CDMA WHEN YOU ROAM OUTSIDE OF SAID MAJOR METRO's.

It will likely be 2013 or later for LTE to even be at the level we have now with 3G, it's been almost 4 years since 3G was being built up. Verizon is a good 6 months ahead of everyone but testing is still very early. Frankly I doubt you'll even see a LTE phone of any sort until 2011.

Knowing Apple they will gladly keep at&t;as get that nice fat sub, you think it will stay $300-400 once it's not exclusive? Keep dreaming. iPhone will stop being $199, the lone way they'll keep the fictional price down is the carrier contract will turn to 3 year vs. 2.

And please t-Mobile has next to zero 3G coverage in the states. Sprint would be an interesting play but I'm not sure their network has the footprint outside of major metro's.

I expect at&t;only through summer 2011

Dec 05, 09 - 12:14 pm Comment from: Wireless Test Man

Apple having a flagship product on what end users rate in Consumer Reports as

THE WORST WIRELESS NETWORK IN THE COUNTRY - DEAD LAST

is enough reason to want to be on the wireless network quality leader according to the same Consumer Reports survey.

Nokia, for all it's dominance in the rest of the world, is AWOL in the USA mostly due to them making the strategic decision to ignore Verizon (they brand a few cheap handsets for VZW that are made by the Korean manufacturers)..

The US market, by Nokia's own admission, is the top spot in terms of handset vendor high-end volume & profitability.. Just look at Nokia's smartphone marketshare here.... almost non-existant.. this is really hurting them...

Unless Apple offers the iPhone on Verizon, they will always remain second fiddle to RIM (remember, AT&T;sells TONS of Blackberries too as well as VZW, T-Mobile & Sprint), and only helps to fuel the Google/Android platform.

If Apple offered a phone on VZW, Android would be DEAD. Apple, in one fell swoop, would wipe out a potential future competitor. Who would buy an Android handset when you can get an iPhone?

There are many, many people who will not give up the quality of the Verizon network in order to get the iPhone. I am one of them (in spite of owning almost one of every product Apple's ever made since 1985).

I bought the HTC Droid Eris. I have moved my calendar management from MobileMe to Google (and it's free!) and replaced my mac.com email w/ a FREE Gmail account. At this point, why would I keep MobileMe? (more lost revenue for Apple that I would have gladly continued to hand to them)

Google has done a great job of integrating online music downloads w/ the Amazon music store... I can just import the music into iTunes.. so once again, more money Apple is losing from me.

Alienating long-time customers and Apple fan-boys is never a good strategy.

If you notice, in the Consumer Reports survey, 98% of iPhones owners love the handset & would buy it again in spite of the fact that they don't like the AT&T;network....

This makes for the perfect profitability storm for Apple... an iPhone on VZW would allow them to sell TONS of iPhones to new customers who won't leave VZW, as well as selling TONS of iPhones to those who can't stand AT&T;anymore... Apple gets to make their money on these same subscribers who switch TWICE ! What's not to love?

Is rather see the iPhone come to TMobile before Verizon. Verizon's network is too slow to be considered 3G in my mind. Plus the inability to use simultaneous voice and data is another negative of the inferior (my opinion) CDMA network. 400k is not 3G to me and that's what I consistently receive with various devices on Verizon. I get 3x that with ATT and TMobile is equally superior.

I hope iphone comes to t-mobile soon, and I will buy it. The only reason I did not have iphone is because I dislike at&t;so much.

There's a map for that...

In a year or 2 a map of LTE coverage will look like Verizons representation of AT&T;'s 3G coverage. Except that you can delete another 50% of those spotty blue blotches. That's for ALL providers.

Why is this so difficult to understand ? Predrag is right- apple will NEVER advertise 2 sets of iPhone capabilities after all the expense of creating a separate CDMA phone (trivial tho that might be). Verizon customers WILL NOT understand or accept that their iPhone is hobbled compared to their neighbor's.
Not to mention developers potentially having to build network - specific apps.

Apple is not going to create this hot mess for a few more US sales- they already have the potential for exponential growth worldwide. They neither need or want this.