MacDailyNews - Where Mac news comes first

Dec 17, 09 - 07:09 pm Comment from: MacDave

Who said there's a sucker born every minute?

PT Barnum...and Bill Gates

That would be PT Ballmer.

So, 10.1 is a quarterly record for Blackberry, even though they are on multiple networks and have many models. How many did Apple sell on their 1 network with 1 model?

And do not forget the buy one get one free deals. I bet if Apple did the same ATT would go BOOM with a big mushroom cloud and bright flash.

Great, they can all now email on the go...

Dec 17, 09 - 07:21 pm Comment from: Jubei

Hang on to those corporate suckers RIM.

Dec 17, 09 - 07:23 pm Comment from: HughB

Quad Core
Apple sold less, about 7 mil? . And Rimm profit up 50% so they must be doing something right. Stock up 12.3% after hours. AAPL down another $3.17 today. Maybe we should not be so cocky fellow fanboys.

Dec 17, 09 - 07:30 pm Comment from: Wintermute

In my experience, the iPhone has raised awareness of smartphone and their usefullness in general. Companies have expanded the circle of who gets a smartphone through them. In corporations it is almost all BlackBerries. In my organization we've been offered a free Blackberry, or an iPhone that we buy and they pay for the service. 9/10 chose to buy iPhones. It's like the pc vs mac numbers. It'd be interesting to know how many of these Blackberries were bought by consumers on their own where the iPhone is foccused on, and how many by companies where the iPhone in my estimation is just barely getting it's toe wet in so far.

Dec 17, 09 - 07:57 pm Comment from: Wingsy

Why is RIM's stock up so much on this sales announcement? Hell, when Apple posts record sales the stock more often than not will take a hit!

Dec 17, 09 - 08:01 pm Comment from: NikonFox

They shipped out that many devices but were they "free" phones with renewal or activation? Because if so, no wonder they shipped out that many. Also consider : shipped for sale at stores or actually sold?

Dec 17, 09 - 08:10 pm Comment from: HughB

As I read it they had 4.4 mil new customers. Does not sound like the boss is handing them out to me. I am just trying to look at it objectively without the need to belittle their improved sales.

Dec 17, 09 - 08:13 pm Comment from: Gregg Thurman

RIMM's growth is being fueled by the consumer market, exactly the market that Apple has targeted. This isn't bad, because the corporate market is saturated and the iPhone is making inroads there, as well as growing like a weed in the consumer space.

It should also be noted that RIMM accomplished this by slashing prices, something that Apple hasn't done in the past.

I'm not overly impressed by RIMM's guidance, it includes December which is the #1 selling month of the year. So essentially they are saying that because of December they will be able to maintain flat sales in what most other companies consider a down quarter. Had it not been for their weird fiscal year RIMM would have guided downward.

Blackberry's results do show that Apple still has some work to do to capture the business market. I consider myself a bonafide appleHomer and I was expecting that RIM would be down not only in sales but profits. It didn't happen. But I bet Apple will have a record Christmas quarter.

Dec 17, 09 - 08:55 pm Comment from: G4Dualie

I'll bet RIM has saturated their market and will not have a repeat quarter unless they continue on their present course.

And what happens to the stock next quarter when the sales gimmicks fail to boost sales over the ten-million mark?

This quarter is a hard act to follow. But, my hat's off to RIM.

This was an excellent quarter and it shows RIM's strategies are working. Why can't you guys just give them credit instead of getting all defensive and trying to conjure up some nonsense.

Facts are that 80% of the net adds were to consumer. So iPhone doesn't seem to be impeding RIM at all.

You can talk all the trash you want about marketing offers (incidentally, those are created by the CARRIER not RIM and RIM gets full price for each of those) or whatever but this quarter and next quarter's guidance show this company is here to stay. Accept it or complain some more like an unhappy child - your choice.

You are a joke sire, the guidance is excellent. If you were disappointed it's only because you have unrealistic expectations. The above mentioned guidance isn't what RIM said - they said 10.6 - 11.1 million devices which would represent 5-10% sequential growth, which includes a compare to Black Friday. I guess the market's reaction is totally wrong too?

People on this blog are a joke when it comes to anything non-Apple. You guys don't have a clue about RIM.

There are no free Blackberries here folks. Any Blackberry still requires a data plan, carrier gets 2 data plans (what they want) and RIM gets sales on both devices. They also clear out inventory.

Considering the bulk of this is consumers and 2010 is likely to see corporate spending / upgrading return RIM will be fine. Apple is the one under pressure.

- Needs to get cross carrier in the states ASAP
- Leaving at&t;will mean losing that nice fat subsidy they enjoy
- Improve iPhone. Putting out a larger capacity or colors isn't going to cut it.

Apple will always kill RIM due to they have a much larger product line. RIM is selling a ton of smartphones, a large % is international where the device cost is much lower then Apple. I'd love to see Apple break out the US sales figures. You won't see that though.

If RIM can get their webkit browser out by summer and continue this the lure of being with iPhone will be limited to those that like being tied to the iTunes ecosystem. Choice is a good thing.

Dec 17, 09 - 10:27 pm Comment from: zmarc

The 4.4 mil new to BB is impressive, but only 36 mil active accounts? That means more than half of BBs sold aren't being used.

Hasn't Apple sold over 60 mil iPhone/touches? How many of those are "active?" Pretty close to 100% I would think.

In North America RIM will keep harvesting all the people who have been turned on to the idea of a smartphone by the iPhone but who can't leave their verizon, sprint or t-mobile plans. I'll wager there are another 30 million customers in this category - those poor souls bound to be drawn down below the RIM.

Dec 17, 09 - 11:56 pm Comment from: Macrelated

@come on!

You said:
"You can talk all the trash you want about marketing offers (incidentally, those are created by the CARRIER not RIM and RIM gets full price for each of those)"

Just curious.

How do you know RIM gets full price in 2 for 1 deals?
How do you know RIM doesn't give the carrier(s) cash incentives in connection with 2 for 1 sales?

Can you site the authority for that conclusion?

@Zmarc

it's called an upgrade - rim has been selling blackberries for 10 years! the iphone has only been in existence for 2 1/2 years. this is common sense...

@Macrelated

the proof? there's the earnings call where RIM states the ASP per device was $317 - as forecasted. There will also be a filing in both Canadian and US regulatory bodies that has this information as well. This is inline with the company's own guidance. If they were giving cash incentives, which is a reduction in ACTUAL sales price, they would be required using proper accounting, to subtract that from the device sale. SO, it's right out there in the open, as forecasted by RIM. DO you need more proof?

You really can't be asking this question in a serious manner - but I am happy to answer in a serious manner to educate you. Simple research would answer the question though. Next time do some homework first.

The best part is these comments are taken as attacks yet Apple will continue to do quite well even as RIM executes their own strategy.

Dec 18, 09 - 12:40 am Comment from: G4Dualie

UPDATE 2:41PM ET:Research In Motion has issued a statement confirming the email outage, although without an explanation of why email service had been interrupted.

I know this update is old news, however Twitter reveals that many places around the country, at this hour, are still experiencing trouble with email.

This kind of thing can't be good for RIM's image. The last time there was an outage, RIM never explained the cause and it isn't likely we'll hear an explanation for this one either.

However, this time they've taken full responsibility for the outage and said the carriers are not at fault. So, it's something RIM is doing, or not doing, that is causing these problems.

That's odd, because as has been stated already, RIMs been selling BBs for ten years and yet they can't seem to overcome their inadequacies.

Consumerism is a whole 'nuther ballgame, as opposed to corporatism.

Just sayin'...

In an article in Fortune recently, RIMM actually thanked Apple for getting the consumers to accept smartphones as a consumer products, and credited iPhone for the growing sales of the Blackberry!

Dec 18, 09 - 01:48 am Comment from: Big Als MBP

While RIM is showing good numbers and they have a good product, lets not lose sight of the fact that RIM is showing numbers of handsets shipped.

They shipped 10.1 Blackberry units.

There is no mention of how many units were sold. No mention of how many were left on the shelves.

There is one other stat missing.

THERE IS NO MENTION OF HOW MANY OF THOSE UNITS WERE ACTUAL SMART PHONES.

How many had a decent screen size? How many had WiFi? How many had the power to run sophisticated programs? How many were just cheap, texting capable, cell phones?

There are lies, damn lies and statistics.

Dec 18, 09 - 01:49 am Comment from: Gregg Thurman

"the proof? there's the earnings call where RIM states the ASP per device was $317"

What was RIMM's ASP per device 4 quarters ago?

The iPhone's ASP is ~$150 higher, which would suggest a steeply discounted Blackberry, or at the very least a phone that isn't as valued by its carriers as is the iPhone.

Dec 18, 09 - 02:22 am Comment from: Brau

10.1 million / 5 models ... 3 of which are low priced models that could hardly be described as "smart phones" because they can't run apps and don't have Wifi.

My nephew recently bought a Blackberry. He wanted an iPhone but he could not afford one so he opted for the cheapest email capable phone/data package he could find. Hardly something for BB to brag about.

Dec 18, 09 - 03:47 am Comment from: almux

Pressure and challenging between industries is always a good thing for customers.

Take a look at AAPL over the last year
http://www.google.com/finance?q=AAPL
and compare to RIMM

The charts don't lie, RIMM is starting to do a MSFT and settling in to a flat line. One trick pony and eventually they will pay for that.

TRIm blacberry are very huge and popular in Canada, at least where I live which is in the southern part of Saskatchewan. They actually slashed their prices and offer more variety now than before, so most people buy their outdated phones. It's so funny though almost everyone who bought one are still using those dumbphones because they are way cheaper and pay less.

Dec 18, 09 - 08:51 am Comment from: Wireless Test Man

The only conclusion to be reach from RIM's results is what I've said al along....

Apple needs to stop riding that once horse in the USA (a broken, sickly horse ready for the glue factory I might add) and get their device onto multiple carriers.

Verizon Wireless is one of the 5 largest carriers in the world by both subscribers and geographic coverage.... (the carriers in Europe cover geographical areas smaller than many of our states!) Verizon is also recognized by subscribers as the network quality leader in BOTH JD Powers and Consumer Reports cellular subscriber surveys.

This is not just a one-year event either... Verizon has rated at or near the top in every region of the country while AT&T;has ranked near or at the bottom... year-over-year...

They can put all the ads with a FAT Luke Wilson on that they want... they can hire all the consulting firms that they want to make any claim that they want.... but it doesn't change customer perception. They need to fix their network!

Apple will never take over RIM until they are on multiple carriers in the world's largest, richest market with high ARPU (the perfect environment for smartphone sales).

You can say India & China have huge populations & huge subscriber counts, but most are prepaid with very low ARPU.

MDN, you're forgetting that RIM doesn't make their money on unit sales. They make their money on the monthly service fees. That way, they can afford to give their phones away, BOGO style, and still make lots of money. All of those new free Blackberries = mucho dinero for RIM.

But I know, an excellent business plan that didn't come from Apple blows your mind.

Dec 18, 09 - 11:20 am Comment from: Predrag

..."RIM states the ASP per device was $317?

The iPhone's ASP is ~$150 higher, "

Actually, significantly more than ~$150 higher. Actually, iPhone ASP is around $650 ($200 retail price, plus around $450 in subsidy from AT&T). In other words, AT&T can buy two Blackberries for the price of one single iPhone.

Wow, this is entertaining. RIM has a clear strategy to lower their ASPs to drive adoption and hit the elasticity curve to drive adoption. You can very clearly see that in their numbers this quarter and their guidance for next quarter. I think you misunderstand value in the eyes of the carrier. Having a higher ASP does not equal value (and Predrag highlights your ASP number is too low as well). In fact, a higher ASP is actually less value to the carrier as they are required to offer a much higher upfront subsidy (i.e. their expenses are much higher out of pocket).

Also, once the device is on the network, from a bandwidth usage point of view, the iPhone is so awesome at surfing the web that the devices use so much capacity. We all know about the issues ATT is having. If 1 iPhone equals 5 Blackberries as far as capacity is concerned and the carrier gets a $30 data plan for each device, isn't it obvious where the value lies? $150>$30 for the same capacity usage (I didn't even mention the revenue from the additional 4 voice contracts!). I believe you are 100% correct in being a fan of a great device such as the iPhone, but don't believe for a second that the iPhone represents greater "value" to the carrier. And when you consider the required capacity upgrades and capex, the equation gets even worse in an economic sense. These are simple facts. These are not opinions. You can choose to accept them or not, your call.

@Brau - any Blackberry that was sold in the last quarter can most certainly run apps. Wifi is not the determination.

@G4 Dualie - the outage occurred for a few hours, they identified the problem, and fixed it. Wasn't mobileme out of service yesterday for some time? RIM's email service is still very reliable even if there is one or two outages a year that last a few hours.

@Big Als MBP - Please. You look quite uninformed with your rant. RIM clearly stated that channel inventory was essentially flat quarter over quarter. The sell-through was very high. This is not a Palm where 780k were shipped and 570k were sold. Rant about that, not RIM's excellent sell through. And please stop it with the smartphone/non-smartphone thing. A device sold is a device sold no matter what you call it. Just keep moving the goal posts buddy.

@Dallasm - wrong, wrong, wrong. RIM makes most of its money by selling the devices. In the quarter, device sales were about $3.2b of the $3.9B revenue. And RIM does not give the Blackberry away even in a bogo, it's the carrier that provides a subsidy.


This board has become a place for Apple fans to whine about RIM's success. Why can't you accept that RIM is doing well? This doesn't mean Apple can't thrive too. I am long both and will continue to be so but won't accept these asinine comments from various posters as fact. I write this stuff to inform, but usually it's met with anger and defensiveness. No need, go away if that's your game - otherwise you might actually learn something...if you are willing to open your mind, of course.

I'm a huge Apple fan, been using one for over a decade. That said, I've got a blackberry and love it. Nothing against the iPhone, I'm sure I love one but there are a few things about it that I don't like such as AT&T;(I'm with Sprint), you can't remove the battery, no keyboard, no trackball/rackpad, no satellite GPS capability and you can't run multiple apps at once.

Dec 18, 09 - 12:08 pm Comment from: G4Dualie

@wireless test man

Let's get something straight, AT&T gave birth to Verizon (Bell Atlantic) in 1983, just before the Reagan administration broke up AT&T who at the time, was the mother of all carriers.

Bell Atlantic acquired GTE in 2000 and changed its name to Verizon, shortly after which Verizon hooked up with Vodafone (second largest carrier in the world) AirTouch, giving birth to Verizon Wireless in 2000.

AT&T wireless began to take shape in 2007 with the acquisitions of Dobson Communications, Interwise, 12 MHz of spectrum in the prime 700 MHz spectrum band at government auction, and Edge Wireless. Since that time they have been working to meld all of this wireless spectrum, business operations, technology, and people into a single cohesive company.

I'm not making excuses for AT&T's spotty wireless service, however you can't acquire billions of dollars worth of companies and expect them to work seamless out of the gate. Growing pains are to be expected in a two-year-old operation.

Verizon, on the other hand began life with a dead-end technology and now will undergo a transition to the newer LTE, which makes me wonder how that will proceed. As far as I know there isn't a single LTE phone on the market yet, but one thing is for certain, all of Verizon's CDMA phones will be hanging around for sometime to come.

For the moment, the real difference is that Verizon doesn't have a smartphone on their networks in the same league as the iPhone, backed by a store moving thousands of apps each day. In fact, the real test of their network won't begin for sometime and when it does, it will be news I'm sure.

@come on Well said. I'm a hardcore Apple user and have been for the last decade. Having said that, it shocks me how many people here panic when another company is doing well. Seriously, why do people feel the need to whine to justify Apple products? I think they are stellar and that's why I buy them. It's one thing when Apple was pre-iPod and you are trying to extoll on people that the Mac is a great computer. Unfortunately, most people on here sound like the Microsoft fanbois of old and, frankly, it's quite embarrassing.

As for those people ripping into RIM for email outages: Google MobileMe outages. Can happen to everyone folks. It's not that there won't be adversity....there will....it's all in how you deal with it.

Bonano out.

Dec 18, 09 - 12:25 pm Comment from: G4Dualie

@re buttle

@G4 Dualie - the outage occurred for a few hours

Really? For you, in your neck of the woods maybe, but not according to the folks on twitter, which was their only form of data communications going well into the evening.

Wasn't mobileme out of service yesterday for some time?

MobileMe was down yesterday? That's news to me and I am a MobileMe customer.

I googled "MobileMe outage" and clicked on the news link and the only story to show up was the Blackberry debacle, again. If MobileMe was down yesterday it would have made front page news, and you know it. Liar.

When MobileMe went down in 2008, after its maiden launch, Apple said that was the last straw and decided to move away from Akamai and Limelight Networks. The new data center will ensure MobileMe consumers receive not only better service, but extended services.

Dec 18, 09 - 12:55 pm Comment from: G4Dualie

Ripping RIM, downplaying iPhone, and slinging hash.

It's Mac/PC all over again. But let's be clear, we Apple consumers aren't going to take any shit anymore. So if it seems like we're a bit defensive, it's because we've been there done that for the thirty years!

We've heard it all before. We've been insulted about our "toys", the myths of security by obscurity, the lack of software (namely games), powerless processors, thin selections of video cards, overpriced hardware, you name it.

One thing I am certain of, the most scarred among us (graphics industry) have survived the long bitter Troll Wars with some of the world's most veritable PC trolls and most of you here now, who are attempting to belittle us because we reject your reality, were still in diapers when Apple computers had a 90 percent market share.

We're still here, fending off yet another wave of new and younger trolls on a new technological front that is mobile communications. Apple's first foray into this spectrum was spectacular and you know it. What you don't realize, like so many of Apple's competitors is, Apple is for real. They have a long sweeping history of experience and lots of failures that makes us who we are today.

You're just envious because of our history, our products, our religion, and what the future holds for Apple. Apple is shaping mobile communications using Woz's idealism to make it small and make it clean or haven't you noticed that every Apple product introduced since the late Seventies has gotten smaller, thiner, lighter, faster, and cooler. That's not a fluke, it's by design!

If being a veteran of the Troll Wars and celebrating Apple's successes makes me a fanbois in your eyes, who cares, we all have to live with our choices and right now I've made such a long string of smart choices this past three decades, I must be a fucking genius, thanks to Apple, Inc.

Dec 18, 09 - 01:30 pm Comment from: G4Dualie

@re buttle

Register your nome de plume and stick around for when the real fun begins. Surely you have more to crow about besides RIM, mmh? You are, after all, long on Apple. Surely you have something more to contribute besides championing RIM's sales numbers?

Rim makes mobile devices and provides a network service for the business community and only recently made a foray into consumerism. Given they are new at this kind of business they've done remarkably well, as evidenced by their latest quarterly report.

It would seem that because they have built a solid foundation in mobile communications, we can expect bigger and better products from them, right? They should be a leader in this space, no? So let's see what they have in mind for their future roadmap. Surely, we can talk about the merits of where Apple and RIM are headed? One thing is certain, RIM will have to avoid bringing out too many more models of phone. What are they up to now, a couple dozen different models?

All I know is, if your chief goal is to make money, anyone can get rich, millionaires are made everyday because that has become their life's mission; making money. If all you want to do is make money, then go out and do that, it's easy, provided you make sacrifices.

Everyone knows what kinds of sacrifices Apple makes. The pundits and trolls have such a hissy fit over the features Apple has chosen to omit from their products and leave go for the next iteration, or till such a time when they know for certain it will be done right, and according to their own timeline.

For example, web apps on the iPhone were soundly rejected by the developer community. Not good enough. But once Apple introduced their SDK, in their own good time, things sort of exploded, didn't they? Now, Google and Microsoft are moving into the web apps space, so this should get real interesting how they plan to monetize that space.

RIM should be focused not on increasing market share, but making mobile communications better and selling a boatload of mobile devices is but one measure of success. Another is providing your customers with a consistent and worry-free mobile experience, not losing their data and causing frustration and anxiety, not to mention higher phone bills because email stops working.

I'd put Apple's future up against RIMs any day. Microsoft could, in a desperate move to gain traction in the mobile space, buy RIM and who'd be smiling then? RIM shareholders? You?

So, I guess this means they're not "beleaguered".

Oh well, give it time....

"Actually, iPhone ASP is around $650 ($200 retail price, plus around $450 in subsidy from AT&T;)."

Uh, you're having a problem here.

There is no "iPhone." There is iPhone 3G, iPhone 3GS (16GB), and iPhone 3GS (32MB).

There is no "Blackberry", either. There are many more models of Blackberry than there are of iPhone.

For example, the Average Selling Price for Macs last quarter was somewhere around $1500. That doesn't mean everybody ran out and bought the 21.5" iMac for $1499. That means if you take the revenue from Macs and divide by the number of units, you'll come out with a number around $1500.

So your method of "figuring" the average selling price for an iPhone is incorrect because there are different price points. You'd actually need to go look at Apple's financials and see if they list the number of iPhone units shipped (and I'm sure they don't break them down for competitive reasons) and then figure out the revenue from the iPhone units (without the delayed revenue) in order to determine the ASP.

Personal opinion here--and I may be wrong--but I bet you'd find it to be under $600. There are lots of iPhone 3G units being sold.

Dec 18, 09 - 10:24 pm Comment from: Big Als MBP

@ Last Rebuttal,

"A device sold is a device sold". That's the stupidest thing I've ever read.

A cash register is a computer, just ask Microsoft.

A smart phone is a computer, just ask Apple.

A free with contract, Blackberry branded dumb phone is a smart phone, just ask RIM.

Phones shipped equals phones sold.

Virtually flat equals no build up in inventory.

What a load of horseshit.

If you're not going to compare apples to apples, what sense do any of your arguments make?

Apple, count your iPhone and iPod touch numbers with your laptop numbers. Last Rebuttal says it's OK.

Dec 18, 09 - 10:32 pm Comment from: Big Als MBP

@ Mark,

"I'm a huge Apple fan, been using one for over a decade."

Since Apples haven't been made since the very early 90s, either you are too stupid to know you use a Mac or your are a lying shill for RIM.

I vote for stupid.

Big Al obviously can't do any research. If that guy did, he would have his answers - but would surely conjure up some lies to alter the outcome. Listen, if you don't like FACTS then fine, but that's the truth.

FACT: RIM Channel inventory was flat, so sell through was high - ok big al? There was no inventory build. In fact, you neophyte, RIM has repeatedly said that carriers have kept very lean inventories due to caution around the macro picture. Nothing has changed on that front. is that clear enough? What horseshit is there? You are making crap up - I am doing research to find facts.

FACT: A device sold IS in fact a device sold whether you call it a smartphone, a big al phone, a batphone, or a smartphone, ok big al? If that's the stupidest thing you have ever heard, then you need to get out more.

What's the fascination with the whole smartphone/non-smartphone thing anyway? Every single BB is a smartphone whether you like it or not. It might not live up to your iPhone, but it is a smartphone. It runs apps, it sends email, has a pda, surfs the internet, etc.

What a bunch of whiners on this board. It's funny because I own as many Apple products as just about everyone here and love them but I won't fall into this bullsh*t groupthink that anything non-apple is garbage. Apple is a great company. RIM is a great company. They both will do so well in the coming years. I have owned stock in these companies for years.

@G4dualie - impassioned response - i have much more to offer than defending RIM but the attitudes on this board and large amount of misinformation is frustrating to see. I'm done wasing my time, this is it. I have never said a bad thing about Apple products (except when deserved) and above I even say how great an iPhone is for surfing the web. Heck I have an iPhone and an iPod Touch and am Apple;s biggest fan. So step the f*ck off. And that goes for big al who's periodic posts are filled with inane ramblings.

And you now why I stopped posting under my screen name here? Because I would write thoughtful posts and receive nothing but grief because it didn't fall in line with apple fanboy agenda. That's childish nonsense. This site has become the Apple mafia. (Not nearly as cool as the paypal mafia, but i digress.) MDN is the boss and all you are his foot soldiers. keep fighting and defending the mothership!

Why would you attack a guy (below) that says he has used Apple computers for a decade? Because he prefers a Blackberry? Great reason there chief. Are you really that much of a bully? You probably got beat up as a kid and now the internet provides you a pulpit to anonymously spew venom from. You are a complete pr!ck! You should be ashamed of your actions. It's people like you that make MDN a terrible site.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
@ Mark,

"I'm a huge Apple fan, been using one for over a decade."

Since Apples haven't been made since the very early 90s, either you are too stupid to know you use a Mac or your are a lying shill for RIM.

I vote for stupid.

Dec 19, 09 - 04:40 pm Comment from: Hm...

My, my, my. Lots of teenage angst spilling out today. Overheated from being stuck inside because of the snow? Go outside and shovel for a while -- it'll cool you all off and give you some needed exercise.