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Feb 06, 10 - 05:26 pm Comment from: zmarc

For those of you worried that ebook prices will be higher, they won't: we the public set the prices. If they don't sell at a certain price, the publishers will lower them.

This is all about the publishers wanting to control the pricing via a third party (Amazon) with a vested interest in gaining a monopoly on a product. Once Amazon gained that monopoly, you can bet their prices would have risen. Now there will be fair competition!

Feb 06, 10 - 05:27 pm Comment from: zmarc

Correction: sorry, "via" in the above should be "versus"

Feb 06, 10 - 05:35 pm Comment from: MacBill

Regardless of how good or bad the Kindle is, it is a shame that Apple is turning its backs on consumers and letting the publishers charge outrageously high prices for their eBooks.

eBooks cost the publishers virtually NOTHING on their end to produce. They create the book ONCE in electronic format, and their costs are complete. Even $9.99 was too expensive for an eBook, and yet now Apple is enabling these publishers to screw over consumers even more... in most cases, these eBook prices are HIGHER than going out and buying the paperback version for yourself! And with the paperback version, you can lend it out to a friend, you can keep it on your bookshelf, and you can throw it into your backpack without fear of it being damaged. Plus, a regular book is easier on your eyes.

What Apple did with music pricing was fantastic -- they put the power back in consumers' hands again, after years of being fskced over by the record industry who insisted that you must be an entire album instead of single tracks. 99 cents per track was a fair price. Unfortunately, the new $1.29 pricing for popular songs is not a fair price, but at least Apple got DRM-free music out of the deal.

But what Apple is doing with book pricing is not consumer-friendly at all. It is now more cost-effective and beneficial to just order the actual book. With music, it made SENSE to buy through iTunes. This doesn't make much sense at all, because it's all about benefitting the publishers' coffers.

It's ironic that Amazon probably sold a ton of iPhone/Cocoa/Obj-C programming books in the last couple of years that helped spurred on the success of the App Store.

It'll be great if e-books on iPad will really be more preferable than a paperback. I can then have all my computer books in one device everywhere I go. And when the next gen iPad that is even more powerful comes with a truly graphical, touch-based XCode for programming. You buy an e-book on programming iPad on the iPad. You create an app on the iPad. You sell it on iTunes, and make a killing. Then it's game over.

Feb 06, 10 - 05:45 pm Comment from: bjh

@MacBill.
Absolutely right. And for those who claim this is to help authors, i say B.S. Most authirs are lucky to see 10% royalties.

So, MDN, where is your attack on publishers ? And on Apple for facilitating their efforts to screw Amazin and, therefore, the consumer.

Apple have great products, in general, and have helped the music consumer. But they have not helped the reader.

Yay I get to pay more for ebooks with no physical product, no resale, and one use (I never reread books)! Yay Apple! Is iBooks coming to iPhone as well?

Feb 06, 10 - 06:00 pm Comment from: Hm...

@ MacBill

I disagree. Artificially making all eBooks sell for 9.99 does not recognize that some books are worth more than others. Do you expect a technical manual, textbook, or a dictionary to have the same development cost that a pulp fiction romance written by Aunt Jenny on her lunch-break with a $399 POS Dell? Should Springer-Verlag sell the hardback "Handbook of Nuclear Engineering" for $2,900.00, but let the eBook (which they *are* producing) go for $9.99? Without being able to differentiate by price, eBooks will stay the little niche that the Kindle is creating; we'd only ever find cheap trade books.

Also, I wonder why it's "not consumer-friendly" to let the *producer* establish (and adjust) the price, rather than the distributor? Apple and Amazon are conduits — they don't create or produce books. They run servers, a great web-store, and collect sales receipts. They should be able to make a reasonable profit, but they should *not* be able to dictate to the publishers what their profit should be. That would be the same as letting MacConnection, MacWarehouse, or MacMall dictate selling prices to Apple.

By the way, I'd be interested in seeing the computation you used to determine that 99¢ is a "fair" price for music, but $1.29 isn't.

Feb 06, 10 - 06:06 pm Comment from: Hm...

@ iMaki

"one use (I never reread books)!"

You really need to get a different criterion for buying books!

I wonder what it costs to print and distribute a book? Bet it's not much. In fact, on a $15.99 paperback, I'll bet it's not more than $2.00. Perhaps less.

So a $9.99 ebook does seem like a rip. We think that since it's pixels, ones and zeros that the cost should be next to nothing. That's why college kids are still telling each other, "Oh, you pay for music? I can tell you where to get it for free." (Recently overheard). They think it's cash value is next to zero or should be.

Like music producing and news writing, book publishing is intensive, difficult work that needs a professional team willing to put in all the work to make it happen. 90% of the cost of getting a book out there isn't the printing and distributing (I'm guessing, as I wrote above), but getting to that point.

As much as I'd love $2.99 ebooks and would buy gazillions of them, I do think it's fair to have the publishers set the prices.

...

Gosh, I sure would love $2.99 ebooks, though.

(MW: "read")

Feb 06, 10 - 06:35 pm Comment from: Hm...

@ Nerd Beautiful

A rule of thumb in publishing is that printing covers about 10% of the wholesale price.

@ bjh

Current standard publishing contracts give authors ~20% (of the wholesale price, not retail) for 'trade books' like paperback fiction, etc., and ~13% for textbooks. Some technical books are done as 'work for hire,' then there are no royalties, just a one time payment.

Apple can't sell what it can't make. Time and again launches of popular products have fallen far short of demand (whether the shortage was manufactured or due to manufacturing is irrelevant). Six million? Twice that!?! Seriously doubtful.

No matter how u view it, there is nothing better than free markets and competition for the consumer.

I was never in favor of Apple dictating the music labels how much they can charge.

Feb 06, 10 - 07:27 pm Comment from: Msavwah

effectively Apple bought the publishers just like the last major studio bought bluray. I forget which one it was.

@ Macbill,
So how should a brain surgeon make for a living? An auto mechanic make for a living? a rocket scientist make for a living? An author make for a living? You don't like $9.99 don't pay it, buy your paper backs and enjoy life.

Just because Amazon charges $9.99 for books doesn't mean Apple will I can't even find the iBook app to buy it much less find a price for any books for sale yet.

Like someone else wrote... Just because they are 1's and 0's doesn't mean they aren't worth something......

Feb 06, 10 - 07:50 pm Comment from: Ampar

"Just because they are 1's and 0's doesn't mean they aren't worth something"

"If they are my ones and zeroes and they look like fuckable, blue space cat aliens, then you'll pay me what I want, nerd," hypothetically paraphrasing James Cameron.

I wish people who are defending Apple allowing the publishers to rape the consumers with their eBook policy would stop parroting that all Kindle books are $9.99. It isn't true, so please stop repeating it. I have purchased technical books on the Kindle that cost over $50 (with the physical book being over $80). Amazon is not "artificially" limiting prices to $9.99 - it is only most NYT bestsellers that are $9.99 - there is a lot of variation in the Kindle eBook prices already.

The only thing this is going to do is ensure that the starting price for ebooks from the major publishers have a higher starting price, which sucks.

Feb 06, 10 - 07:56 pm Comment from: Ampar

ReadMuch?: Save "rape" for when you've been bent over and taken against your will, hyperbole poster.

Feb 06, 10 - 07:57 pm Comment from: Trvth

iMaki: "Yay I get to pay more for ebooks with no physical product, no resale, and one use (I never reread books)! Yay Apple! Is iBooks coming to iPhone as well?"

Don't forget, though, the excitement of scrolling through all the titles to see which one the Ministry of Trvth has disappeared overnight.

MDN Take ... Kindle is amateur-hour hardware (and software)

Uh oh. With that take you might not see DLMeyer 'round these parts fer a while. He's got Kindle books to read don'tcha' know. Maybe he can open the web app and make a comment ... oh wait.

Feb 06, 10 - 08:14 pm Comment from: Ampar

"I never reread books"

That's pathetic and possibly psychotic.

It amazes me that a lot of people that argue against the raising of prices is basing their argument on the material costs, rather than the "value" of that book, its contents. A really good book is "worth" more to readers, and probably cost the author a lot more time to create. We get all material for free from the earth... we pay for the labour that goes into creating and distributing the finished product.

Feb 06, 10 - 08:50 pm Comment from: It's About Time

It's time for Amazon to hook up with Microsoft (sleeeware) and HP (crapola) to produce another failure in the "I'm going to beat Apple" race. You know the saying "birds of a feather, flock together".

poor amazon. They spend all this time, money, effort just to boost up the ebook market. Only to see Apple come in and snatch their work away... LOL

The irony

Feb 06, 10 - 09:02 pm Comment from: Ampar

A few books I've read again and again and again:
Siddhartha, Hermann Hesse
Dune, Frank Herbert
Deuteronomy, Authors Unknown
Every Single Play and Sonnet Too Multiple to List, William Shakespeare
An Essay Concerning Human Understanding, John Locke
Psalms, Authors Unknown
The Stand, Stephen King
Green Eggs and Ham, Dr. Seuss or Theodor Seuss Geisel
Hop on Pop, Dr. Seuss or Theodor Seuss Geisel
Gone With The Wind, Margaret Mitchell
Ulysses, James Joyce
The Martian Chronicles, Ray Bradbury
Frankenstein, Mary Shelley
Common Sense, Thomas Paine
Metamagical Themas (check the anagram), Douglas Hofstadter
The Canterbury Tales, Geoffrey Chaucer

. . . possibly a few more.

I don't read books because they cost too much. It is hard enough keeping up on my Apple hardware habit and keeping food and medical for the family. There are a couple of books I want to read and wanted to get them on Audible, but sorry $20 for a book I will only read once . You can kiss my ass. Now $5.00 ( that is all an e- book is worth) $ 5.00 a book and I am all over it, and reading more and more.

Feb 06, 10 - 09:16 pm Comment from: Ampar

"You can kiss my ass."

Gee, thanks. You don't have a library?

Feb 06, 10 - 09:20 pm Comment from: Ampar

Oh yeah, and I've read most of Salinger's and Vonnegut's books three times.

What happened to literate people?

Your is a possessive form of you, idiots.

I'm sorry, but unless Apple competes with Amazon in the audiobook market (Audible) then it really makes no difference to me what ebooks they sell. I can't read an ebook while driving, mowing the lawn or working out like I can listen to an audiobook.

As far as reading, I still like paper, so bookstores and the public library will still see me on a regular basis.

Feb 06, 10 - 09:36 pm Comment from: KingMel

What Apple did with music pricing made sense from several standpoints. First, the $0.99 model was attractive and simple for consumers. That was critical to the effort to kick off an online music marketplace and the music industry was a bit desperate and willing to experiment. These factors are far less applicable to the book industry. Second, the online price really wasn't generally that much lower than the price of the physical media. However, consumers found additional value in the fact that they could purchase individual songs rather than being forced into buying albums to obtain only a few good songs. This may be applicable to some media, such as magazine articles, if the material is provided under that model. But it does not apply to books. You aren't going to buy just chapters 1, 3 and 5. Third, the change in ebook pricing and revenue proportions greatly weakened Amazon and is already vaulting Apple into the dominant position, even before the iPad is available. Apple had to compromise and cede a greater degree of control to booksellers in order to gain this advantage.

All of that aside, the truth of the matter is in the first post by zmarc. The price of something is determined by supply and demand. If you believe that ebook prices are too high, then do not buy any of them. If enough consumers act along the same lines, then ebook prices will decline.

My biggest concern is that physical books will gradually become more expensive and less available. I like to be able to carry a paperback with me to enjoyably pass some time while waiting in line or for an appointment. How will libraries function in the age of ebooks? It seems to me that a single virtual library could address a large portion of the functionality of all of the existing brick and mortar libraries open today, *if* ebooks can be shared in the same way. But I am very concerned that ebook DRM will severely limit options in this regard.

I will miss the new book and old book smells, too.

Apple already does offer audiobooks through iTunes...

@ Sarasota
"... unless Apple competes with Amazon in the audiobook market"
Huh? Loof for that little CD icon in your dock with the music symbol. This App is called iTunes. Click that one time and welcome to a whole new world.

@ MacBill
"...Apple is turning its backs on consumers and letting the publishers charge outrageously high prices for their eBooks."

zmarc (1st post) Already explained this to you in detail but you insisted spewing out your slanted point of view anyway?

"For those of you worried that ebook prices will be higher, they won't: we the public set the prices. If they don't sell at a certain price, the publishers will lower them."

Book prices will be all over the board (as they should be) Publishers have every right to sell books for whatever the market will bear. Just like you can charge whatever you wish for your services. You'll see titles selling for 99¢ up to $50 I suppose.

@bjh
"...MDN, where is your attack on publishers?"

See above.

NEWS FLASH:
I haven't read the fine print but I don't think it's mandatory to buy an iPad or frequent the iBook store. If you don't like the pricing, or prefer a real book, you are free to make your choice. (Just like a Publisher)

Seems to me it's pretty simple.

If you think the ebooks are over priced - don't but them.
If there really is such a thing as a free economy, the market will correct itself.

If there isn't a free economy, what chance did you have anyway?

As I see it, Apple sold out. They sacrificed the 9.99 price to consumers in order to enter the market. Content is obviously going to be more expensive now that Apple has entered, thanks.
Still looking forward to the iPad though as I don't read books (I'm a nerd, i read manuals).

"Maybe Bezos could do an Amazon clip-on book light or something," ...

I had a good laugh on that one.

@Ubermac
"No matter how u view it, there is nothing better than free markets and competition for the consumer.
I was never in favor of Apple dictating the music labels how much they can charge."

I never had a problem with it. Someone needed to show the music industry that it was full of crap. The market proved that Apple was correct.

Feb 06, 10 - 10:22 pm Comment from: Ampar

"As I see it, Apple sold out. They sacrificed the 9.99 price to consumers in order to enter the market. Content is obviously going to be more expensive now that Apple has entered, thanks. "

Bullshit. Prove it or STFU.

Feb 06, 10 - 10:26 pm Comment from: zmarc

I don't get this idea that Apple sold out or compromised in order to lure publishers from Amazon.

All Apple did is offer to publishers the exact same deal they do to App developers: the content maker sets the price and keeps 70% of the sale. Clean, simple, efficient.

If you look at Amazon, the fine print in their publishing agreement is 20 pages long. Their newest agreement (in order for the publisher to get the 70% rate) mandates that the publisher cannot sell the ebook anywhere else for less than Amazon sells it! Outrageous. What gives Amazon, a mere etailer, the right to set my prices on a different site?

I'm sorry, but I vote for simple and clear on this one. If I need a lawyer and an accountant just to figure out what Amazon owes me from my book sales, I'm publishing elsewhere.

Feb 06, 10 - 10:40 pm Comment from: Doc4i

Perhaps Amazon can make it up in volume by selling iPads at a
discounted rate. Say entry level at $450.00??

"My biggest concern is that physical books will gradually become more expensive and less available... How will libraries function in the age of ebooks"

New releases of physical hardbacks are now going for $27, a hell of a lot of money to pay for a book. No way many people are going to Barnes & Noble or Borders to shell out that much money for a single book, at least not without a 40% coupon. Borders is on the way out, much like Circuit City, CompUSA and the others, and it most likely won't last the year. The writing is on the wall for libraries: they're dead and will begin closing their doors en masse in the coming years.

In many ways the publishers have done this to themselves. Fuddy duddy CEOs and management were clueless to the digital revolution, hitting them totally unprepared for what's coming. Out of the ashes young new start up, digital-only publishers will replace them. The only way traditional publishers will survive is to recognize the opportunities opened up by ebooks. If they think they won a battle with Amazon by being able to price their books for more than $9.99, they're in for a big surprise. Jeff Bezos knows better.

Feb 06, 10 - 10:57 pm Comment from: ElderNorm

@MacBill,

"eBooks cost the publishers virtually NOTHING on their end to produce. "

So, your work efforts amount to zero also?? People spend up to a year working on writing a book, not to mention the time it takes to develop the knowledge base in the first place.

But actually I would like to see music artists and writers bypass the whole studio thing and go directly to direct publishing. Getting 70% of their sales (- some small amount to a middle man who knows how to make the whole thing work) sounds much better.

Just a thought.
en

Feb 06, 10 - 11:01 pm Comment from: TigerCliff

I agree the market will ultimately decide. I suspect publishers had enough leverage to get a pricing compromise... that is, Apple needs them and they need Apple.

As for me, eBooks are worth less than paperbacks which are less than hardbacks. If not, I'll buy the physical versions. I believe that's a common feeling.

Why is everyone missing the most obvious difference?

If you sell something for less than a dollar, everybody will buy it. That's how iTunes store became what it is. But selling something at $10 instead of $12 will not make an ounce of difference.

Amazon, thinking they were smart by copying Apple's lead to set the price, didn't realize what Apple does, that at this price point it doesn't help sales at all.

Feb 06, 10 - 11:32 pm Comment from: m159

Why would anyone with an iPad use the kindle app when there is iBooks?

Kindle is screwed.

@Renaldo
I don't know if you have visited a local library lately, but all of the libraries near me are always packed.
Especially after school there are usually no empty seats.
I don't see a mad rush to close public libraries.

Feb 07, 10 - 12:07 am Comment from: Big Als MBP

It's simple. If e-books are priced too high in the iBooks Store and on Amazon, the prices will come down.

Apple didn't screw over anyone but Amazon. Amazon was screwing over the publishers and indirectly the authors. They won't from now on. Consumers will set the price with their buying decisions.

Feb 07, 10 - 12:28 am Comment from: Think

@MacBill

You are an idiot.

What, writer's hard work counts for nothing? You don't want to pay them what their work is worth?

As I have said before in these forums, stop by and shovel all the snow out of my drive for $3.99. That's what I think "your" hard work is worth.

I read about 3-4 books a week, with Stanza, search their free books, thousands of older books, lots of classics, I've gotten hooked on old
sci fi books, read "After London". , after you read it, look at what year it was written , you'll flip

Feb 07, 10 - 12:42 am Comment from: Think

All the others bitching about the paperbacks being cheaper than what Apple will charge.

You are forgetting that books are released in stages: Hardback, paperback, discount shelf. EBooks will be released the same way: Highest price for certain amount of time, lower price for another amount of time, cheapest price for another set amount of time.

See, it's really easy to understand now.

Hopefully you all complaining get it this time.

Apple is not the bad guy, they are just letting the publishers sell their stuff at the price they want.

Let the market decide.


Or put it this way: Should Apple force all Apps in the iPhone store to be sold for 99¢? Even the ones that are currently $20, $50, $100?


Why do App developers get to set their price? Oh I get it, eBooks are different.

Feb 07, 10 - 01:30 am Comment from: MacAdvocate

...or Apple was only able to come to an agreement with publishers if they charged more for an eBook than Amazon. Apple is a big hardware maker, but a fringe player in the eBook market. For Buchanan to think that Apple arbitrarily picked $14.99 just to screw over Amazon is stupid. Apple can get away with allowing publishers to charge the higher prices they demanded because of the added value of the iPad. It just so happens that Amazon - for whatever reason - decided to cave and allow publishers to charge more. There goes your price advantage. You could have at least let Macmillan squirm for a few weeks before bending over.

And for people commenting on how much it costs to make an eBook and how that should be reflected in the price should seriously considering killing themselves. The medium by which the work comes to market is nothing compared to the investment in writing and promoting it. It's kind of pathetic that I'd have to spell that out, but it seems a few commenters have their heads up their asses. You're welcome.

Feb 07, 10 - 01:57 am Comment from: TigerCliff

@Think,
I didn't forget that paperbacks are delayed... one of the reasons why they're cheaper. Thanks for bringing that up... but they're still worth more to me than eBooks.

Btw, I do think there's value and other people may find them more useful. However, they're virtually free to "manufacture" and they're less portable (I won't take the iPad to the pool, beach) and they're not transferrable (loan, sell)... do't need to be recharged.

I can beleieve the industry will have big changes. Maybe B&N;stores close... but right now libraries are more crowded than ever.

It would be great to have Apple stand on reducing the cost of public school and college books. A cost reduction at these two points would be great on wallets and backs!

Maybe Apple is choosing where to fight. It is a hopeful thought.