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I like Adobe. But sometimes they say crazy stuff.

Mar 19, 08 - 09:54 pm Comment from: freefromdesign

I know there are a lot of people against flash on the iPhone, but I think we should have the option if we want it. No one is going to be hurt if those who want flash can have it.

"No one is going to be hurt if those who want flash can have it."

Well, it's 'optional' now in browsers, and is ubiquitous. Nothing else will happen if adobe keep their grip on things. At least there's a chance of something open replacing it if the iPod doesn't have flash. And adobe are beginning to look a bit panicked. If some open method of video distribution were to replace flash, 99% of its importance from the users' POV would be gone.

Mar 19, 08 - 10:26 pm Comment from: Eric

Flash sucks...

It always has sucked... It inexplicably uses far too much CPU/GPU power, sucking batteries dry.

I personally doubt that Apple will ship Flash on the iPhone anytime soon, unless they fix it's lousy performance.

But, ultimately, I am really happy that Flash is not on the iPhone... I don't need my EDGE bandwidth being choked by stupid flash banner ads that I DEFINITELY do not want and any website stupid enough to REQUIRE Flash to view or navigate, aren't worth viewing anyhow in my opinion.

Personally, I think Steve will let the growing millions of VERY active web browsing iPhone users drive the market away from Flash towards QuickTime, and likewise, slowly kill off WMV the same way, though I am fairly indifferent to the latter.

Mar 19, 08 - 10:31 pm Comment from: Eric

zek,

"If some open method of video distribution were to replace flash, 99% of its importance from the users' POV would be gone."

Where have you been the last 16 years? Ever heard of QuickTime. It's not only an open method of video distribution, but the first digital open method of video distribution, since 1991.

Don't believe me? Look it up yourself: QuickTime info on Wikipedia

@Eric
"Personally, I think Steve will let the growing millions of VERY active web browsing iPhone users drive the market away from Flash towards QuickTime, and likewise, slowly kill off WMV the same way..."

A consummation devoutly to be wished!

Mar 20, 08 - 12:11 am Comment from: Steveeee

I refuse to watch any wmv file my friends stupid enough to send me.

Don't forget, even if Adobe were to make a 'standalone' application that could download and play Flash files, they would either have to totally cripple it by stripping out any ability to execute embedded scripts OR get a special exemption from Apple because the Apple SDK explicitly disallows applications that have plugins or have the ability to execute downloaded scripts.

Mar 20, 08 - 05:49 am Comment from: Tommy Boy

Okay Flash haters, please to explain why an optional Flash plug-in, assuming it met Apple's performance guidelines, that could be downloaded individually by users who have a need for such things, and avoided by those who don't want it, would be a bad thing?

Mar 20, 08 - 06:21 am Comment from: HMCIV

I'm cautiously optomistic Adobe will get this right.

Mar 20, 08 - 06:56 am Comment from: Eric

Tommy Boy,

In the incredibly unlikely event that Adobe actually could fix the lousy performance of Flash, which, let's face it, is such a kludged up joke that even Microsoft... MICROSOFT, goddammit!!... was able to handily outdo, performance-wise with the first beta of Silverlight...

think about that for a second... Microsoft was able to outdo the performance of Flash... which has been around for over a decade now... with a 1.0 alternative... Microsoft... 1.0... Better performance. Hardly a more unlikely event is even imaginable... But, we are talking about perhaps the most kludged together piece of crap software technology ever created

Seriously, Tommy Boy... It's just not going to happen, but even if it does, if some idiot wants it, and there are bound to be some idiots that do. they deserve it...

Mar 20, 08 - 07:11 am Comment from: aaplsaur

@Tommy Boy

I don't like Flash because it is so slow on my Dual 2GHz G5. Granted, it's not a new system, but Quicktime High Definition Streams without a hiccup, but even YouTube Flash video is very jittery, at least until it has downloaded completely. It's a resource hog.

You ask if it would be acceptable if they may a snappy version for the iPhone. The answer is "No", unless they also make a snappy version for everything else. Otherwise, I would not want to propagate it's usage on websites. Fix it or replace it with something technologically superior, don't just keep spreading it.

I used to like Adobe, in fact, I am recovering Adobeholic.

They are just like M$ now, large, ignorant, out of control.

No one has answered Tommy Boy's question.

These new Mac users are going to have to learn that if Steve says Flash sucks, we don't need it... They don't understand what it means to be a Mac Fanboy.

Who cares if a large amount of websites require flash, Steve Jobs will decide what websites us Mac user can or can not access.... The other 95% of the world is going to have to cater to us..

Mar 20, 08 - 07:59 am Comment from: GizmoDan

For Flash to be useful on an iPhone, wouldn't it have to be built-in to Safari, or be a plug-in to Safari?

Seems like a standalone SDK-type program would be fairly useless on an iPhone. And it seems like a Safari plug-in would be fairly unlikely for Apple to accomodate. Once you tell them their plug-in is allowed, you have to deal with all the other people that want to provide a plug-in. Soon, the simplicity of iPhone is lost.

Simply make Safari for iPhone ship with Flash OFF by default, then create a tiny little touch button way deep down somewhere to turn it on with a warning that Adobe sucks and Flash sucks batteries. If you miss a call, blame Adobe. I still get the little watch when in Photoshop on Tiger...just shows how prehistoric Adobe is.

Mar 20, 08 - 08:33 am Comment from: Ampar

"In an e-mailed statement, Adobe said it had evaluated the iPhone software development kit Apple had released March 6 in beta, and could now 'start to develop a way to bring Flash player to the iPhone,'" Gonsalves reports.


It's ironic that they can't seem to come up with a working timeline. Their actions and behaviors sound scripted.

Mar 20, 08 - 08:37 am Comment from: Ampar

I agree with Tommy Boy. Make it an option.

As DVD dud said, ". . . then create a tiny little touch button way deep down somewhere to turn it on . . . "

Under Settings>Safari>Security. Instead of an ON switch for Plug-ins, put in a sub-menu that let's you pick and choose. And yes, Flash OFF by default.

Mar 20, 08 - 08:38 am Comment from: studentrights

@Radius

"please to explain why an optional Flash plug-in, assuming it met Apple's performance guidelines, that could be downloaded individually by users who have a need for such things, and avoided by those who don't want it, would be a bad thing?"

The question was answered. By allowing Flash on to the iPhone we would be promoting a second rate technology that Adobe and formerly Macromedia have failed to make resource efficient in over a decade.

The real question is why do we need Flash?

We certainly don't need it for video. We can do without the resource hogging ads and website navigation can easily be accomplish with technologies, such as, AJAX. Plus, Flash that is currently designed for conventional websites isn't designed to work within the iPhone's form factor and most won't work with Flash Lite.

So why do I need Flash on the web?

I think its developers not users who need Flash, because its a skill that makes them money. I say, get a new skill.

Die Flash, die!

Flash video - video is cool but I'd rather they not be flash full stop.
Flash games - most wouldn't work on an iPhone screen as they're keyboard/mouse based or they'd be the wrong size.
Flash ads - Crap on desktop environments. Yeah, they're a must have.
Flash interfaces - see flash ads.

Flash isn't a must have, if the iPhone and Safari's support for open video and new html standards for embedding video can help kill it then great.

Mar 20, 08 - 08:49 am Comment from: studentrights

Oh, yeah, they are not going to put Flash on the iPhone. They are talking about "Flash Lite".

Some of you need to do some research before talking out of your ass.

"It's noteworthy that Adobe has moved away from attempting to port the full Flash runtime to other mobile phones. Instead, the company developed Flash Lite, a simplified scripting runtime designed to provide a user interface layer of interactivity that could be used to design basic phone interfaces. Flash Lite doesn't run any of the Flash content found on websites, rendering it worthless to iPhone users."

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/03/05/steve_jobs_pans_flash_on_the_iphone.html

oh Adobe.. I hate you more and more everyday... I think I prefer silverlight over any of your offerings at this time... AND THATS REALLLLLLLLY SAD.

Mar 20, 08 - 09:03 am Comment from: Ampar

"Some of you need to do some research before talking out of your ass."

Speaking of ass-talking, unless you currently work at Adobe as a software engineer on the mobile Flash project for the iPhone then you have as much of a clue as anyone here. Right now. Today.

However, if you actually can see into the future three months, I need to ask you about some sports scores and lottery numbers.

Mar 20, 08 - 09:09 am Comment from: Mr. Reeee

I was interviewing a web site builder a few months ago. He was showing me all these very cool, swoopy Flash things.

Yes, yes, very nice, but I want elegance, simplicity and FAST loading. I do NOT want Flash on my site.

He was stunned. Actually offended and tried to explain how fast everything loads, once everything is optimized for Flash.

And how much time will THAT take?

End of interview.

Mar 20, 08 - 09:31 am Comment from: studentrights

@Ampar

I don't need to be a software engineer to know what a resource hog Flash has been over the years and that has not changed.

I also think the iPhone is giving Flash developers a vision of the future, a future without Flash, and they are beginning to sweat balls. Are you sweating yet, Ampar?

Besides, the real question is still, "Why do I need Flash?"

What can Flash do for the web that existing open-source technologies like Javascript, Ajax and HTML 5 cannot?

Did you even bother to read the link?

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/03/05/steve_jobs_pans_flash_on_the_iphone.html

I find I can't stab the "Skip Intro" fast enough - what a waste of bandwidth!

Mar 20, 08 - 09:55 am Comment from: Lurker_PC

MDN - Thanks for the news flash!

Peace.

Mar 20, 08 - 09:57 am Comment from: Ampar

Yes, studentrights. I always trust "Prince McLean" from "AppleInsider" for hard-hitting, factual, unbiased news reports and editorials.

I'm also not disagreeing with you on the resource hog part. I also have been burned by Adobe's apathy and stupidity when it comes to programming and especially their obvious apathy over the years towards the Mac platform. Maybe now it's just wishful thinking that there might be hope with Narayen instead of Chizen.
And yet, I still have no problem with a Flash Lite plug-in as an option on the iPhone. Weird, huh?

Mar 20, 08 - 10:05 am Comment from: Mo

Flash could have been great. But in the endeavor to make shit loads of money, it has become a pain in the ass.

@Eric

WORD

Flash is just plain annoying and not well suited for the iPhone's interface. Can you imagine how long it would take a Flash site to load over Edge; probably just as long as MDN? Irregardless, Apple wants H.264 to be the defacto standard format for web video and the new platform they've created with the iPhone and Touch promises to make this a reality. If you hadn't noticed, Apple is not going to repeat its past mistakes with the Mac platform and is going full force toward market domination with these devices (SDK). Apple has created this new platform, so why shouldn't they define it also? All the web-video purveyors out there are simply going to have to start re-encoding their wares, like YouTube did if they want a piece of the mobile internet market.

@ studentrights

I dont think *YOU read that link! - and you definatly dont understand why what is happening is happening

Standard safari flash is probably incompatible with mobile safari.

the mobile flash software currently available sucks ass.

Adobe has not been very easy to get along with for the last couple years. apparently they dont like to code for the betterment of their software.

unless Adobe is ready to get in bed with apple, they are going to have to wait till June like the rest of us. - and so will anyone that wants flash on iphone, and YES Flash is a big competitor to H.264 for *SOME things... so Apple isnt going to hold their hand, or jump thru extra hoops just to push flash. But they wont keep it off the platform either. I REALLLLLLY think the best thing to do is for Apple to buy Adobe.. Kill photoshop for Windows, somehow mutate full flash support into H.264, and start charging for the acrobat read for Windows.. HAHA!!! I can day dream cant I?

Shantanu: Nice phone you got there! We would certainly love to have all your customers run Flash on it!
Steve: Hmm. Really?
Shantanu: Yeah! It's such a great way for our company to gain market-share and becoming more established! It would be great for us.
Steve: I recall we waited quite a while for some applications of yours when it was good for us to get them fast. I think we lost about a billion on that alone. Any comments?
Shantanu: CS? Well, we thought that would all be water under the bridge, after all, we did make it available after a while, right?
Steve: Hmm. I see you are trying to compete with our Aperture program and that you also brought back a video editor from the dead?
Shantanu: Oh that.... don't mind those things, we just did that because our customers wanted it, not to compete with you guys!
Steve: Really?
Shantanu: Yes... so can we please get to put Flash in your phone now?
Steve: We have a great new thinng going on with QuickTime actually which eventually might replace Flash completely.... so... I don't think so. When you lost a billion, give me another call all right?
Shantanu: But?.... I will tell the press!
Steve: Go ahead, that's fine with me.
Shantanu: But, the iPhone rules, it will be the next platform, we can't miss it!!
Steve: You did that three years ago... Bye now..

Click

Flash is a bloated piece of crap. Good riddance.

Mar 20, 08 - 12:22 pm Comment from: studentrights

@tt

You're not telling me anything I don't already know.

The point is that the iPhone doesn't need Flash and keeping Flash off of the iPhone will probably result in pushing forward better open source technologies to replace them; Javascript, Ajax and HTML 5 .

Like I said, I think there are a lot of Flash developers out there sweating balls, because the iPhone could bring about the decline of Flash.

I think Daniel Eran Dilger from Roughly Drafted says it best...

http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/03/05/steve-jobs-pans-flash-on-the-iphone/#comment-5953

@tt

If Apple should but Adobe, I hope they do what you said. But I hope they don't kill off Photoshop, etc. on Windows right away. I hope they sell the same version for the next ten years.

Regarding Flash, I agree with studentrights, but for a different reason. Given that neither version (desktop or lite) is suitable for the iPhone, the annoncement of an optimized version could be vaporware. It could be an attempt to assure everyone that developing with Flash has a future. This will allow time for optimization for other platforms as well, and time for other mobile OS's to catch up.

I'd say if Adobe is serious, let them address the Safari Flash plug-in first. Some sites are absolutely a pain to use.

Using QuickTime was never a standard to Win PC's due to WMV (just talking video here). M$ shoved their own video format down their lemmings' throats early on. One word: Compatibility. As a web designer, about 5 years ago I used to have to create small + large versions of movies for clients in QT AND in WMV formats. That's four freakin' movies!! I would have loved to just do QT only for Mac. Thankfully those days are gone. Now we can just make one FLV video and it's optimized just great and plays in 100% of store bought Macs & PC's due to the Flash plugin. How is not using FLV better??? YouTube really forged the way for this and it's the most widely used way to deliver video on the web.

Let's talk animations...
Issues of performance are not as apparent to the average user unless the Flash developer bloated his/her animation with too much crap. That's really what needs to be addressed...sensible and tasteful design of Flash by developers, not so much the plugin. Sure there are some performance issues, but overall, I've noticed them to be very slight on a G5/2G ram for most things.

Show me anything that can do scalable vector animations as clean and smooth or even morphing as easily as Flash. It just doesn't exist in any practical and compatible sense. I've seen just as many screwed up sites made from CSS, HTML. XML, PHP, Javascript, etc. It's all about how each technology was used. When there's a replacement for EVERYTHING it does that is 100% compatible with all computers, then I'll take it seriously. Flash is the golden standard for that right now. Period. Does the Flash plugin need work? Sure. It can always be better.

As much as Adobe is the new M$ these days (I agree with that), but their products are far superior to M$'s. They actually work well and produce consistent results. I can send my Ai, PSD or PDF files to any printer KNOWING they are perfect. I'm stuck using their expensive apps simply because nothing is better right now at least for print work. Web design has a little more options available and can be created from text editors (for the really geeky peeps). Same thing applies to Flash. Silverlight? Spare me. That would be a dark day and we'd actually be moving backward.

Personally, I'd love to see Quartz Composer (.qtz files) used on both platforms or added support for it in the Flash plugin. Just dreaming out loud. Ok, I'll get off my soapbox now. Game on.