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Please MDN, don't hold back...

Nov 03, 09 - 10:08 am Comment from: breeze

We don't want no stinkin' flash - Adobe!

You go MDN!

Nov 03, 09 - 10:15 am Comment from: ron

Adobe is a mud hut.

it doesn't help when you are out and about and CAN NOT SEE a site you might happen to need to.

i understand flash sucks- but the rest of the world is on it and we should have the choice to momentarily run our battery down so we can see .. say a site for a restaurant.

Nov 03, 09 - 10:19 am Comment from: Ottawa Mark

All that said, it's really only on the OS X platform that Flash sucks. Sadly, lowly netbooks with XP seem to run Flash smoothly without whirring up fans full blast. I think it may be a two-way street here.

Speaking of not wasting a bunch of money on Adobe products, I am on the cusp of purchasing Dreamweaver CS4. Is there a better, more affordable choice that isn't a product of those miserable, ungrateful wretches?

MESSAGE TO APPLE: KEEP FLASH OFF MY IPHONE..!

Got that Adobe?

All the files and garbage you pile into my computer using your trashy software makes me want to put Photoshop in the bin too.. (Already binned InDesign, Macromedia, Acrobat - Photoshop is the last..)

Nov 03, 09 - 10:27 am Comment from: 84 Mac Guy

I loaded ClicktoFlash onto my Macs a month ago. What a breath of fresh air. Faster web browsing because Flash crap isn't being loaded for every web page. And as Ottawa Mark noted, you will be amazed at how many freakin' flash boxes are on a typical web page.

I agree basically. I do not think Flash is relevant anymore. It was a stop gap to provide animation to websites. The web will move forward and Flash's role will become smaller and smaller.

Web designers using Flash need to make non-Flash versions of the websites ASAP or lose traffic from iPhone users. By the way, many other mobile devices can not play Flash content or can only play it in a limited way.

I think Flash, overall, will start to disappear as designers get the message that the public wants to read content and get to the content, and are no longer as impressed with some Flash animations.

Sorry, Adobe - but you need to keep innovating as you go forward.

Nov 03, 09 - 10:34 am Comment from: ron

Adobe is a natural building material made from sand, clay, and water, with some kind of fibrous or organic material (sticks, straw, dung),


With emphasis on the "DUNG".

Nov 03, 09 - 10:35 am Comment from: iPhoner

Everybody always says that flash runs like shit on a Mac. Seems okay to me. What is the problem exactly? I've never seen it big down Safari. Not that I like flash at all - just wondering. I installed clicktoflash but disabled it cuz I got tired of seeing all the grey ad boxes on every website.

NEED A CANVAS HTML5 APP EDITOR PLEEEEZE!

Nov 03, 09 - 10:37 am Comment from: breeze

To everyone who might need flash in a pinch but hates it in general because it slows their computers and browsing to a crawl:

Do yourselves a huge favor:

Try ClicktoFlash ( It's FREE) NOW !!!
Get ClicktoFlash ( It's FREE) NOW !!!
Try ClicktoFlash ( It's FREE) NOW !!!
Get ClicktoFlash ( It's FREE) NOW !!!
Try ClicktoFlash ( It's FREE) NOW !!!
Get ClicktoFlash ( It's FREE) NOW !!!

Nov 03, 09 - 10:38 am Comment from: twilightmoon

84 Mac Guy

MDN has mobile version of the site. No flash on that.

Nov 03, 09 - 10:39 am Comment from: Predrag

84 Mac Guy:

MDN does NOT control what type of content its advertisers provide. As we all know, because anyone can very easily, without any effort, block image loading, advertisers are using Flash banners to deliver their stuff. Click2Flash is a nice solution, but very, very few people actually use it. This is why Flash is the delivery format of choice for ads.

Nov 03, 09 - 10:40 am Comment from: Studio8H

My only hassles with my Macs involve Adobe software: Dreamweaver crashes on exit; Photoshop crashes in use; Flash slows things to a crawl. All pile junk in my machines. And there never seem to be any updates to fix known problems that have existed for months, if not years, especially with Photoshop. Pixelmator is a fine substitute and we probably will not buy another upgrade of Photoshop. Sometimes I think Adobe and Intuit (Quicken) are paid off by PC manufacturers NOT to develop a viable product for Mac.

Nov 03, 09 - 10:46 am Comment from: Predrag

More t han 95% of the existing Flash content on the web could easily be delivered using HTML5 and AJAX technologies (look at Google's properties; no Flash in sight, anywhere, except YouTube).

Flash's main advantage is the ability for non-developers (i.e. graphic designers and animators) to use GUI tools to quickly whip up animated, interactive web content. This alone is what propelled Flash to where it is, and this will keep Adobe complacent as king of the hill for delivery of interactive web content.

Unless someone develops an authoring tool for building animated, interactive content in HTML5/AJAX with equivalent level of intuitiveness as Flash, we won't see Adobe get off its massive ass and do some optimisation of Flash run-time engine.

@James T., an alternative to Dreamweaver CS4? Try Dreamweaver CS3 if you haven't got that already and can find it online. I ran the CS4 trial earlier this year and it was slow as molasses and crashed frequently, then bought a CS3 upgrade package in August (from techforless.com, though it looks like they're out now) and it runs much faster than CS4 and with no crashes so far. CSS rendering is great, too, which was my big concern.

(MW respect--freaky)

As for Adobe products in general, I've used 'em for years and used to love them, but the more recent versions are definitely getting buggier and sloppier as the company tried to build a "platform" and custom user interface instead of focusing on the quality and stability of their individual apps. I won't be upgrading my CS2 versions of InDesign, Photoshop and Illustrator anytime in the near future, and will definitely look at alternatives when the time comes, and the same goes for Dreamweaver CS3.

Nonsense.

Flash video players will perfectly play h.264/aac (=.m4v) movies without a problem and without taxing the CPU.

The HTML5 Video element will also play .FLV files in Safari.

I don't need flash or any adobe products.

Far too many websites use Flash so its is a pain in the a$$ at times not to have it. Not a fan of Adobe, but the iPhone can handle it. Apple let it on.

Flash is better than you think. I'm a programmer and I have developed websites that work on all browsers and all operating systems without problems. I've also tried that with HTML and HTML 5 is not a ratified standard as of yet. Although I am an Apple fan, Apple is foolish to forge ahead with HTML 5. HTML has been a standard for years and the standards bodies only bicker and no browsers are ever completely compliant. The "Standards experiment" so far has not worked very well.

If Apple thinks they can just say "Fine, we'll support HTML 5 in our browser Safari so it works great on Macs, iPhone and Windows provided you use our browser, than they are no better than what we all hated about Microsoft

Flash is a resource-hogging ball and chain.
Dreamweaver is entirely unintuitive until you figure it out and
is priced for professional write-offs, not the consumer.
Freehand is under the thumb and won't be allowed for open souce.
Photoshop is feature stagnant to justify any upgrade pricing, and why should any consumer use it when they can use the constantly upgraded Pixelmator.
Adobe got the big head and forgot they are still an app company, not a platform.
Adobe has done nothing revolutionary or evolutionary in a long, long time.
Adobe made some good business moves to get power and control, but has done nothing with it that helps the average consumer.

I just visit the BILLIONS of web pages that don't need flash.

What... it's impossible to display your content without using flash?

Nov 03, 09 - 11:02 am Comment from: NCIceman

My only interest in seeing flash on the iphone has nothing to do with Youtube or videos. It's just that many web sites use it. I wish that wasn't the case, but it is, and I don't like being shut out of content.

The problem is that there are web applications (not web pages) that are written in Flex that use the Flash Player. These apps are on par with Silverlight and not used to display movies or annoying ads. I have no problem with HTML 5 other than the fact it is still using horrid javascript. Adobe does need to make some version that will run efficiently and Apple needs to allow it. Adobe doesn't want to be bother and Apple is pushing its own agenda. Both are to blame.

@James T.
I have used Dreamweaver since it was MacroMedia. It has become way to bloated and buggy. I now use Freeway and love it.

http://www.softpress.com/

Well put South Road. This MDN's take on this article is trying to say "If the iPhone (or whatever Apple product) won't do something everyone else's does, then it is not good enough for us." Childish response to not having flash on the iPhone. It has not hampered my use of the device any at all, so I am not exactly missing it, but I don't know why a solution can't be worked out as it is a standard. I better not get the standard "Well, Apple likes to shake things up." That is not always usefu.. I have not had any trouble from Tiger to Snow Leopard with regards to flash so I don't get all the hate. How about bitching about Snow Leopard? There be some problems with that.

I am sure one of the reasons why Apple do not let Flash run as it currently stands is that Flash actually present security risks.

That is one of the reasons why Flash is a prohibited technology or blocked by so many corporate firewalls in secure environments.

It might be available on many web sites but those sites that need to contact users who are largely behind a secure perimeter prefer to use non-Flash alternatives or serve up two versions of their sites. Active X is another technology in this less secure media delivery class.

Erm, why not have a click to play functionality, then i can decide MYSELF if i want to play flash content. The only reason they block flash is it threatens the app store, period.

MDN, love you guys, put the kool aid down

Apple, love you guys, but give me the full web experience and I'll take it from there.

cheers.

Capitalist running-dog pigs of imperialist Wall Street will never get rid of Flash -- or MS's Sulfurfish, for that matter -- because they plant supercookies deep in your computers, where the sun don't shine.

The Dude abides.

Nov 03, 09 - 11:21 am Comment from: iPhoner

There's only one way that you could ever get me to use Windows again. If Adobe stopped developing the CS Suite for Mac. I spend my life within that suite of apps and every dollar I make is from using Premiere Pro, After Affects, Photoshop, Dreamweaver and inDesign.

MDN's take that, "... (Adobe) owes its very existence to Apple..." could also be applied towards Apple. Graphic Designers using PageMaker and Photoshop kept the Mac platform alive during the tumultuous years.

I love Mac - but if I had to abandon all the software that I've spent years mastering - I would switch to Windows tomorrow. (Aaaah!)

Dearest Adobe...

Thank you Apple!

Re: ClickToFlash...

The only problem with ClickToFlash is it requires having Flash installed in the first place and after using the iPhone I quickly discovered how nice it was to not have Flash so I removed it from my Mac and never looked back.

Does anybody know how ClickToFlash looks to things like Google Analytics? I want my browser to report that Flash is not available so the people who manage Flash based web sites will see it in their statistics.

Nov 03, 09 - 11:26 am Comment from: HMCIV

Thank you for the advice MDN. I'll be sure to avoid Flash and try this new "ActiveX" I've been hearing so much about. I bet it's alot like OS X... only active.

What?

@SIPGrinder, I agree. I have been using Freeway Pro for several years now and like it. And they have continued to strengthen it. It does more than I know what to do with at the moment. I'd like a full series of video tutorials from them on all aspects of the application. What they have now is still limited. Still, even though I am not a professional web designer, I recently had a "professional" ask how I was able to do something on one of my sites since he couldn't figure out how to get it done on his sites. I told myself for these years that I should really embark on the Dreamweaver learning curve (again) so I can try it out (again). But it hasn't made sense. Freeway seems to handle (almost) everything I want. Manipulating HTML has still not been as straightforward as I want though.

iPhone user to Adobe: I DON'T CARE!

Ok, let's let in a little reality for a sec...

95+% of net users have a very recent version of Flash Player installed that plays Flash video just fine.

HTML 5 video is currently supported in the latest browser versions from Mozilla, Apple, Opera and Google, and isn't supported at all by Microsoft.

So you as a web designer/programmer can decide that the IE crowd and older browser crowd, about 60-70% of net users, isn't worth supporting and just do HTML 5 video on your site. Or you can use some browser sniffing and HTML/JavaScript fallback crap to deal with the issue because you really want to spend the extra time and money it takes to do so. Or you can use Flash video and use all the leftover time to work on your tan.

Tough choice...

The reality is that HTML 5 is very, very far (as in years) from replacing HTML 4 which has been with us for 12 years now and unfortunately isn't going anywhere any time soon.

I'm curious...I've been using flash for movies and didn't want them to have my movies copied like Quicktime is easily downloadable movies while flash is not downloadable and protects my content. I'm not too keen about flash but this is only way to protect my movie content without being pirated.
Any suggestions?

Nov 03, 09 - 11:49 am Comment from: thethirdshoe

Macs don't let friends use flash.

Nov 03, 09 - 11:54 am Comment from: Fred Mertz

macfreak,

If I can watch your videos, I can record them. Your stuff isn't protected by using Flash. You're simply making your content unavailable to tens of millions of iPhone OS users.

MDN: Pixelmator is great but it's not the only Mac-only, low-footprint, less-expensive alternative to Photoshop. I wish you'd give Acorn a try from flyingmeat.com. It's really very good. Wish you'd tout both Pixelmator and Acorn when the topic of Photoshop comes up.

MDN Magic Word: "then" as in "Alrighty then!"

Flash has been used to produce some of the best interactive educational content on the Web. It would be nice for kids to have acces to it.

Adobe's owing its existence to Apple is no different from Apple owing its (continued) existence to Microsoft. HUGE cash infusion from MS to keep Apple afloat in the 90s.

Lest we forget!

@predrag
Amen brother!

Seeing more and more "slideshow" effects and photo galleries, once done almost 100% in Flash, now being done in Javascript. I use various CMSs to build sites and they work great, even on the iPhone!

Come on apple... i've got cows to milk in farmville!

Well, I was about to tell you how much total baloney your take was, but then I saw Hordur Th.'s reply who put my thoughts in place more politely than I would have.

So Jobs/Apple don't like Flash (for whatever - maybe even legit - reasons) and shuts everybody out, we are not even given a customized option to do so..

Smells like turd and/or M$..really bad.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Just try to do vector animations easily in AJAX or CSS without writing miles of code. CSS animations are not a standard of any kind yet. It looks like a good future direction, so cool, but not for now (not all browsers support it yet). Vector animations that were composed with anything other than Flash, Apple Motion or Quartz Composer are crap (neither AM or QC are supported in a web browser). Flash does this very well. For that alone, it is essential to have even with all the whiners out there. Sure, it's not perfect for those setting babysitting their benchmarks, but show me a better standard for vector animations.

Not to take Adobe's side, because they have certainly pissed me off lately with some things and their finger pointing comment in this article was childish for sure. Pure politics. However, there is some truth to it, but Apple is protecting themselves and their customers, so you can't completely blame them either. Adobe and Apple need to work together for it to be on the iPhone/iPod Touch. Period.

Video: Before YouTube, most video was served as .wmv, .mov or .mpg. Both WMV & QT are proprietary formats and there are millions of MPG flavors, so you had at least 2 or more video files for every movie....or a message saying “download the XX plugin to view the content”, etc. LAMENESS. Those days are gladly gone due to the flash plugin. YouTube used flash video and rapidly made it the standard because of their popularity and the plugin already supported the video type on BOTH platforms. I'd say that was a cool solution. Almost everything you see for video on the web now is FLV of some sort. Bitch about it all you want, but you have a standard now that plays nice on both platforms. I would have loved QT to be the winner, but reality indicates that MANY Windows machines still don't have QT installed (an unfortunate FAIL when viewing QT content).

Because of no flash plugin on the iPhone/Touch, I have to do double work on several websites with fallback content and it's a PITA. I certainly don't over-use flash, but it's a good choice for some things. The Flash plugin runs on approx 95-97% of all computers. So again, whiners, you're not going to change that overnight. You'll have as much luck with that as I've had wishing IE6 would just finally die (DIE!!). To not support flash is just a bizarre move, but must have to do with security. So Adobe, get off your asses - fix the security issues and performance. It should be seamless without clicking involved before viewing content. Apple, please help Adobe do this. And get over yourselves! Or...show us something much better and easier to deploy across platforms.

Be sure to read again Hodur Th's and iPhoner's comments. Very sensible info.

Ok, Ill step down from my soapbox now...