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Oct 17, 08 - 12:08 pm Comment from: Grigori

Probably fake.

Yes, Steve is correct. He sees the "future" and goes with it.
That's why he's such a great leader.

It still doesn't help those of us who have FireWire drives and cameras, that would like to update our laptops.

Someone needs to come up with a USB/FireWire adapter for Macs.

I budgeted for a new MacBook... but a new MacBook, new video camera and new external drives... NO.
Guess I'll just have to keep using my old 'Book and pray the motherboard doesn't go out on it.

Oct 17, 08 - 12:12 pm Comment from: McIntosh

Steve Jobs actually replies to reader email? How much of that must he get in an average day?? I observe he wrote the guy back just over 3 hrs later. Not bad. It seems comforting somehow that ordinary people are able to get replies from the man who's continuing to revolutionize personal computing, animation and the media industries almost as easily as from the customer service dept.

@eWorldian

"I budgeted for a new MacBook... but a new MacBook, new video camera and new external drives... NO.
Guess I'll just have to keep using my old 'Book and pray the motherboard doesn't go out on it."

anti up and get the pro then.

or make do with what you have.

or get a pc.. yes, now do you see the big picture?

This could be resolved by finally adding an express card slot to the MacBook. Granted, that is more expensive than Firewire, but it would be forward thinking.

Get the PC, install linux or OS X, the directions are on the web. Have it all at a lower price.

Oct 17, 08 - 12:27 pm Comment from: Macromancer

"Someone needs to come up with a USB/FireWire adapter for Macs."

Give it about a week, if not already.

@Peruchito - OR you could get a decent refurb from Apple with Firewire, three years of warranty, run all three OS's AND still save cash.

I don't think it is reasonable to omit FW support completely from the MacBook line. There are several digital cameras Apple Stores carried not even a few years ago that are FW 400 only. How much could it possibly add to the cost to add that port?

No FW 400 and Glossy only options make me hesitate on upgrading my iMac G5 to either a MB or MBP.

Oct 17, 08 - 12:30 pm Comment from: MacBill

First of all, the email responses from Steve Jobs are not fake. He reads all of his emails, responds to many, and forwards many to department heads at Apple.

Second of all, the guy writing the letter is missing the bigger picture. It's not JUST about FireWire camcorders here... that would be bad enough! It's about 4 separate things:

1. FireWire camcorders.
2. FireWire hard drivers.
3. FireWire scanners.
4. Target FireWire mode -- this, in my opinion, is the most important one of all!

As a previous poster said, the SIMPLEST solution for all of this would be if Apple would add an ExpressCard slot to the MacBook! Then, we could have the best of all worlds! (Although I'm not sure if Target FireWire mode works if you add on FireWire via an Express Card slot.)

In any case, folks, if you're as upset as most people are about the lack of FireWire on the MacBook, please be sure to send your comments to Apple at their feedback page:
<a href="http://www.apple.com/feedback/macbook.html">

Think of the new manufacturing process - Jobs and a dozen bean counters probably ran through all the possible 'holes' to punch on the new Al brick and structural integrity plus comparing costs and future alteration costs, and came up with the design they won't lose. Most new Mac owners from the PC world will have a USB drive. Jobs probably also thinks you should keep your old drive for backing up your old Macs. Maybe he figure sooner or later Mac faithfuls will upgrade to a new book and new external drive that will be compatible. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but you know you will. Or Jobs just made those executive designer decisions, like, that's that future like I predicted other trends, so just get on with it.

I believe that my Core2Duo iMac still using firewire camera. I have disassembled my iMac upgrading the hard drive and I have found that the connector looks like firewire port.

Oct 17, 08 - 12:31 pm Comment from: MacBill

Oops, here's the link again -- hope this works:
http://www.apple.com/feedback/macbook.html

This issue doesn't affect me, thankfully, but I can appreciate the problem for people who have invested in equipment requiring FW.

Obviously SJ doesn't care (if the email is true.) A better approach would have been to include FW and announce that future upgrades would not. Hopefully for those affected, the "old" Macs work well for their purposes.

The best thing is for people to vote with their pocketbooks. This is one reason, by the way, that corporations have avoided Macs - they know it is best not to depend on one hardware supplier, if possible.

This subject has been kicked around here to death.

The downward spiral of Firewire is depressing, but that's how it is. Steve Jobs is well aware of what other technology companies are developing. If he sees less support for Firewire in favor of USB 2.0 then he'd be a fool to continue with this technology.

Personally I love Firewire for my external hard drive for back-ups and connecting to other Macs using Target Mode is very cool. If something were to ever happen with my internal hard drive, it's nice to know that I could boot from my external Firewire hard drive.

Oct 17, 08 - 12:34 pm Comment from: Randian

@me and Peruchito

Why not just forget Mac and OS X and go back to Windows? We hear Version 7 is just about ready for market; it and a brand new Dell should solve all your problems. The FireWire and glossy screen issues will both disappear, and you can save massive amounts of money in the process. Plus, you get the additional satisfaction of bringing down "His Arrogance-ness" in the process. A triple whammy!

Oct 17, 08 - 12:38 pm Comment from: twilightmoon

"Someone needs to come up with a USB/FireWire adapter for Macs."

The problem is that USB cannot replace FireWire because its a weaker and slower and inherently incompatible standard. Even if you can run the signal through USB (there are solutions that are Windows only) it runs even slower than a native USB signal, forget about the faster FireWire standard.

And further forget about it being able to run video cameras at full throttle and capture video without dropping frames, forget about Target Disc mode.

Simply not a solution for *any* of the reasons people care about FireWire for a MacBook, even if there was a Mac compatible solution which currently there is not.

The new MacBook will sell but it won't sell as well as it could if they'd kept FireWire.

Another example that better technology does not always win. Be carefull Apple.

I'm shaking my head over lack of Firewire in MacBooks and soon-to-be all glossy displays. The Mac world is less interesting these days. I guess Apple executives think since sales are up, they can do anything they want.

Oct 17, 08 - 12:45 pm Comment from: MacBill

@Dave:

Oh yeah, I forgot about that -- all glossy displays is a very poor decision on Apple's part, too. I personally love the glossy displays, but I know several photographers & artists who HATE glossy displays. Now they don't have a choice at all?! Very bad move, Apple.

how about firewire audio Interfaces, tc's powercore.

Oct 17, 08 - 12:47 pm Comment from: buffalo

Get over it. Apple is just skating to where the puck is going to be.

"1. FireWire camcorders.
2. FireWire hard drivers.
3. FireWire scanners.
4. Target FireWire mode -- this, in my opinion, is the most important one of all!"

#4 is the least important. Without Firewire data transfer can be accomplished easier with a 5' ethernet cable.

There are just too many FireWire peripherals in the hands of Mac users for Apple to just abandon the format. Sure new Mac users don't care either way but those looking to upgrade from their last Mac are being forced to buy new peripherals or buy a MacBook Pro. That's weak tea Mr. Jobs. I hope a revised MacBook appears with FireWire included.

The outrage over this FireWire business is astounding. You nerds sure won't go quietly into the night.

Don't listen to people that tell you to get over it. They're the ones who accept everything that's handed to them. What Steve Jobs says is best, no questions asked; that's their mantra. Keep up the fight until your very last breath.

I'm glad he told me what I needed, because I thought I wanted the smaller more compact design of the MacBook for my travels. But because I invested in FireWire devices over the years including several portable Hard Drives and cameras I must have wanted the larger MacBook Pro.
Thanks.

The outrage over this FireWire business is astounding. You nerds sure won't go quietly into the night.

Don't listen to people that tell you to get over it. They're the ones who accept everything that's handed to them. What Steve Jobs says is best, no questions asked; that's their mantra. Keep up the fight until your very last breath.

Seriously, I am surprised that I haven't heard anyone mention the famous negative aspect to FW. It remains a severe security threat to offer FW, where your machine can be compromised relatively easily to anyone who has access to your FW port. And no, from what I hear the security risk is not solvable, I understand it is inherent to the technology. Casual video editing conveniences notwithstanding, for a non-pro machines FW is a dead tech-end. I'm not even going to mention where the other mega OS manufacturer stands on FW, to make my point (as that really might prove the otherwise).

I have posted this once, I'll do it again for whoever may have missed it the first time around:

from WP: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FireWire

Security issues

Devices on a FireWire bus can communicate by direct memory access, where a device can use hardware to map internal memory to FireWire's "Physical Memory Space". The SBP-2 (Serial Bus Protocol 2) used by FireWire disk drives uses this capability to minimize interrupts and buffer copies. In SBP-2, the initiator (controlling device) sends a request by remotely writing a command into a specified area of the target's FireWire address space. This command usually includes buffer addresses in the initiator's FireWire "Physical Address Space", which the target is supposed to use for moving I/O data to and from the initiator. [26]

On many implementations, particularly those like PCs and Macs using the popular OHCI, the mapping between the FireWire "Physical Memory Space" and device physical memory is done in hardware, without operating system intervention. While this enables high-speed and low-latency communication between data sources and syncs without unnecessary copying (such as between a video camera and a software video recording application, or between a disk drive and the application buffers), this can also be a security risk if untrustworthy devices are attached to the bus. For this reason, high-security installations will typically either purchase newer machines which map a virtual memory space to the FireWire "Physical Memory Space" (such as a Power Mac G5, or any Sun workstation), disable the OHCI hardware mapping between FireWire and device memory, physically disable the entire FireWire interface, or do not have FireWire at all.

MDN MW: next (how appropriate)

Oct 17, 08 - 01:00 pm Comment from: pxlmixer

Wireless Firewire is in the wings - just have to disrupt the masses before a new and improved technology is introduced... then everyone can upgrade their systems again. Keeps the market moving.

The demographic that is not really being represented here are musicians. While there are USB2 audio interfaces, Firewire interfaces are significantly more reliable (on Macs anyway) and have better fidelity. I personally would never use a USB audio interface for recording more than 1-2 signals at a time. If you are doing any serious multi-track recording (8, 16, 24 channels, etc...) I would NEVER trust that to USB.

Even though the MBP has a Firewire 800 port, even that is a negative because, as far as I know, there are no (or few) Firewire 800 audio interfaces, so to use one with a new MBP requires an adapter. I like to have as few disruptions in the main signal path between computer and audio interface as possible so an adapter would make me nervous.

This is a really bad decision on Apple's part and I hope they reverse it.

@ MacBill,

Thanks for the link. Messages sent regarding lack of Firewire Ports on the MacBook and the lack of a Matte option on the MacBook Pro's line. Having a choice between matte and glossy options - on the pro line - is nicer than the choice of Apple vs a Linux machine.

Peace.

Oct 17, 08 - 01:07 pm Comment from: since1985

From the article: "There's no doubt that the removal of FireWire from the MacBook was as difficult of a decision for Apple as it is a mourned loss for many Mac users. With FireWire increasingly receding into the professional space, Apple had to weigh several variables, including the cost of incorporating another port to its entry level laptop that many of its new users wouldn't even recognize. After all, half of the buyers Apple is selling to in its retail stores are new to the Mac. Being able to offer them a lower price will likely help more than trying to sell them on the concept of Target Disk mode, which is entirely foreign to PC users."

yes Steve, as other have pointed out, what about Target Disk Mode? One of those really useful Mac-only superiority features over PC.

And the other point is really about brand loyalty. Many people would have chosen FireWire devices over USB 2.0 because - it's perceived (rightly or wrongly) as being "a Mac thing"!

You called this one wrong. It won't make the new MacBook a failure but don't forget your core support!

Prepare for the death of FireWire. There's no longer any point in buying a FW drive today if it will disappear from Macs within three years. You can assume manufacturers also see the writing in the wall. So what is one to do other than hold on to what they've got, burn some silicon and wait for USB 3?

Oct 17, 08 - 01:20 pm Comment from: Big Al

I would hazard a guess that the new Nvidia chipset does not include FW 400. So it was FW 800 or nothing.

Oct 17, 08 - 01:24 pm Comment from: Micro Me

@Greg Thurman: "Without Firewire data transfer can be accomplished easier with a 5' ethernet cable."

Target mode isn't just about data transfer.

Like MacBill, I regard target mode as the most important FireWire attribute. And it would be nice to be able to attach to the FireWire port on my backup drive, although that also has USB.

Ironically, even though I hate the new Glossy displays, and am upset by the lack of an available matte option, Apple just got another sale out of me. A refurbished 2.4 GHz 15" MacBook Pro w/ matte display. I've only had my current MacBook pro for a little less than two years, and didn't need the upgrade, but I want to buy myself as much time with a matte display as possible. I plan to sell my current one, and hopefully push back the need for a replacement that may only be available in glossy at least another two years. This will actually be my third MBP, as my first one was a Core Duo model, and I wanted the 802.11n upgrade. The difference between what I sold the first one for, and bought the second was less than one of the aftermarket 802.11n cards would have cost at the time.

At least while they're available, they're a great deal! $1349 (or $1599 for a new clearance one) for a MacBook pro with FW800 & FW400, and your choice of display type. I definitely can't see buying either of the new "Unibody" firewireless MacBook's as long as these outgoing MacBook Pros are available at these prices.

Whether the whiners like it or not, Steve is right of course. If you need FireWire for a fancy camera, get a MBP. Otherwise, all consumer grade camcorders on the market today use USB anyway.

I said it before, I say it again:

You can boot Intel Macs from a USB HD. You can easily take out the internal HD on the new MacBook (Pro) line. For troubleshooting, the missing FW is a non-issue.

Target Disk Mode: The only thing you cannot do is a direct connection between two different computers for syncing purposes. But there are USB crossover cables -- I have one of those from my non-Mac days. Except that they require special software running on both machines to make up for the intelligence of the FW standard. I don't see why Apple could release a kit like that.

The only persons missing the FW400 port are people having older sound/camera equipment who live on a budget. And the situation sucks for them, I agree. But I do not know if those people are as numerous as they think they are -- meaning that they don't make a large enough market for Apple to care. If you think there is a sizable market, you have to cry to make Apple know. There are already online petitions in place for that. But don't get angry if there not enough people to change Apple's line-up.

Oct 17, 08 - 01:34 pm Comment from: since1985

The article states that FireWire is increasingly receding into the professional space.

As a film/video professional who has used FireWire drives since their inception, I learned early on that FireWire drives were not really FireWire drives. If they contained ATA drives, then it is a FireWire case with an ATA bridge. In such a case, you can never achieve the true bandwidth FireWire offers.

Additionally, in researching the upgrade of my Mac editing system, many professionals have turned away from the unreliability, plug-and-play quirkiness, and speed issues of FireWire (for storage solutions), opting for the more reliable eSATA instead.

So, (1) if most consumers will never use FireWire, (2) if FireWire is receding into the professional space only, (3) if manufacturers only make bridges to more popular technologies, thereby not achieving the true speed FireWire is capable of, (4) if newer camera gear is forsaking FireWire, and (5) if even professionals are opting for eSATA for storage instead, doesn't it make sense for Apple to finally discard it from their consumer laptop, reserving it for the professional MacBook Pro instead?

Apple always has lead technology in this manner with many grumblers along the way predicting doom for Apple. I remember the same sort of comments when Apple was the first to drop the 3.5" floppy drive. Reviewers predicted the iMac would fail for this reason alone.

Other ports that have said bye-bye that will not be missed:
-- the ADB port
-- the printer serial port
-- the modem
-- the ethernet port on the MBA

Of course, there will always be some that will not be happy such deletions. But in time and in retrospect, all of Apple's moves have been seen as forward-thinking, while we laugh at PC box manufacturers as saddling on such old baggage.

Besides, as a pro, I would never run Final Cut on a MacBook anyway.

Target Disk mode works with USB 2.
I use it all the time to backup bad Mac disks without removing them.

People complain too fast and too early. Grow up guys and chill!

Oct 17, 08 - 01:37 pm Comment from: The Dude

@ Viktor,
Looks can be deceiving. Go to the system profiler and look at your USB Bus... see the one under "USB High-Speed Bus" that reads "Built-in iSight"... that is the iSight cam with the funny connector.

The Dude abides.

Clear out a spot next to your zip drive and zip disk in your junk drawer.

Oct 17, 08 - 01:41 pm Comment from: Touch

Solution: FW800 to FW400 adapter.

"Connect legacy FireWire 400 devices to FireWire 800 ports"

http://www.amazon.com/Sonnet-FireWire-400-Adapter-FAD-824/dp/B0000CDJPQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1224264855&sr=8-1

Oct 17, 08 - 01:43 pm Comment from: The Dude

@krquet,
ANY physical access is a major security risk.

The Dude abides.

Oct 17, 08 - 01:45 pm Comment from: Me on this iSland

"Get a PC and have it all at a lower price."
Yeah right, great idea.
And Zune Tang et al calls us Mac users lemmings. Pah!
More like 90% market share for PC users accepting Windows are the lemmings.
Of course Mac users are going to shout about the things they may lose that 'just work' and work well in my experience.
I bet you PC zombies accept the tie that gets supplied in the same packet as your polyester shirts too!

Well, what about current camcorders? If it only has a FW400 export, then what do you have to do, go out and purchase another camcorder? Sure, there is that FW400->USB2 cable, but like other people who have posted have mentioned; you lose HD's, FW Target mode, and the fact that USB uses a *lot* more CPU than FW. FW basically has it's own CPU for processing, leaving the CPU free for other things.

Also, remember the first generation Intel MacBook Pro's came without a FW800 port. That stopped me dead in my tracks from adding the Intel MBP to my shopping cart. The only hope I had there was the cardbus FW800 card. MacBook's don't have the luxury of adding a card though. As soon as Apple released the 2nd generation Intel MacBook Pro with the FW800 port, I purchased one right away. I have many, many HD's that are FW800, and would not like to downgrade to USB2, if I ever purchase a Macbook.

I really hope Apple considers the FW port in the next revision of the Macbook. I left my feedback at Apple. Please be polite, and leave your feedback as well:

http://www.apple.com/feedback/macbook.html

>since1985 wrote: Besides, as a pro, I would never run Final Cut on a MacBook anyway.

Oh get over yourself! Many pros use whatever gear they have available. I've edited on a Mac mini at a client's office, a MacBook when training employees at a remote location (Bali), all the way up to Mac Pro.

If Jobs is so in touch with the market, he should've included the adapter in the case and added a eSATA port to replace the FW400 and FW800 ports.

AMacBill "Oops, here's the link again -- hope this works:
http://www.apple.com/feedback/macbook.html "

Thanks MacBill - just fired of a letter to Apple Feedback about the awful glossy 'mirror' screens. I actually checked out a 24" iMac in the London Apple store some months back with a view to upgrading from my G5 workhorse. Yup, you can see the graphics on screen - you can ALSO see all the store ceiling lights reflected across it and other various light pollution glares. No new iMac for me.

I'd never read books or write and draw on paper with a high-gloss surface - it would be seriously frustrating - so why on earth are Apple expecting me to spend all my working hours doing exactly that on their monitors?

Poor, poor design. A shocker from Apple.

During the special event he said:

"There is nothing on the MacBook that you don't need."

To say it like that means that the leaving out of firewire was intentional to keep the design simple. He did explicitly not say: "The MacBook has everything that you need." So in my ears this sentence was meant to say that leaving out firewire was a conscious decision for design simplicity and we are aware that some consumers may miss firewire.

Now I had a close look at the iFixit.com disassembly pictures and I am asking: Is there any space left for the firewire port? Hardly. Leaving out the microphone jack would do the trick.

One thing that I like very much about the new design: The headphone jacks are not soldered to the logic board. As these jacks are failure-prone, at least from my experience, this is very good.