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5 years ago I bought my kids a cheap Dell because there were no comparable deals available from Apple. I'll never make that mistake again.

I wonder if Dell is stuck in the "loss leader" quandry: they have to support their super-cheap-end business (those lovely $299 machines you can never seem to actually buy for that price) by jacking the prices of their high-end machines? If so that would explain why they end up charging so much more for an equivalent machine at the high end.

Either that or--gasp--Apple is actually better at manufacturing efficicencies than Dell!

Well he messed up of the video card comparison but he got the rest of it right.

Now the question is do I need this first class piece of machinery.

mw- party...!

I think John is bang in the money. Dell are supporting loss-making garbage with the price of their high end machines. Jobs said long ago that Apple's manufacturing efficiency was already greater than Dell's (Fortune article, Feb 2005) and now he's starting to turn the screw. Dell have nowhere to go.

This is all one of the most extraordinary pieces of business strategy that we've ever witnessed. It's chess. It's WWII. It's like a masterplan was laid down in about 2000 and slowly but insuperably it's all coming to pass....

I assume Microsoft is the eventual target ("they just have no taste. And I don't mean that in a small way..."). That battle could be a bit more bloody...

Dells are 'cheaper' than Macs. Macs are 'less expensive' than Dells.

Let's get it right MDN.

Apple's strategy might well confine Dell to a bottom feeding box assembler. But who knows? Dell might succeed in that market. After all, as P. T. Barnum said, there's a sucker born every minute.

This is great and all, and I love to see Apple beat others on price in the high-end area... but:

-Where is Apple's competition to the 15'4" Inspirons, etc. They need a 15.4" MacBook (not pro) with a comparable feature-set.

I'm currently in the market for a 15.4" notebook and I look at MBPro for $2000 and then I look at Dell Inspiron 15.4 (specced out to the top) and there's still about a $500 difference. I know I get OS X, better hardware, etc., but I just can't justify spending $500 more on something I can get for less.

What I would like is a MacBook 15" wide-screen with a stand-alone GPU (for some Windows games) and an expresscard slot. But Apple won't seem to do this b/c they have the MacBook Pro for that. So then they need to put in more features on the Pro models like include more RAM standard (more than 1GB?) and make more GPU memory standard.

But I'll still be waiting out till January to see what we can get.

Al

My sister can't see the difference. She hates the Mac, loves the Windows platform. I gave her daughter a iMac with Panther installed. My niece loves it, but her mother can't stand it. (I think my sister has to much education of the wrong kind )

A friend just bought a new HP notebook to replace his 3 year old HP notebook that crashed on him. He was all excited about some of the features like the DVD drive that can print on the DVD (until he priced the cost of those) as well as a remote control that fits in the express slot. I tried to talk him into a Mac and he was close but the HP was like $800.

Granted, HP probably made only $15 bucks on this machine but I'd like to see Apple find a way to get into the lower end without sacraficing profitability. The iPod shuffle was able to compete on the low end but that was by removing features and shrinking form factor --- that won't work in the notebook world. I just don't know anyone that would actually spend $4,100 for a Dell notebook.

so now Apple is being a cheap product huh?
it's no longer classy and luxurious.. just cheapo trying to get market share?

I did a comparison yesterday of the MBP, an Alienware and WidowPC. All 17", all very comparable.

The Alienware came in at $300 over and the WidowPC came in over a G.

If you install XP with Bootcamp the MBP still comes in under the Alienware. IF you install Vista WHEN it comes out with the Ultimate package, the MBP is only a hundred over.

So how do I convince my die hard "We will never use fruit" windows thumping fiance and her entire family that macs are better without sounding like I'm preaching and shoving it down their throats?

Simple. Refuse to do system maintainence. Say that keeping up with Windows vulnerabilities is too much work.

Oh, I forgot something. To make comparable machines the Alienware and WidowPC were maxed or nearly maxed on their features available. The MBP had more upgrade options when it came to RAM and HD and etc...

MacSweep...When Leopard comes out...install it in your sister's daughter's machine. Show her Time Machine and Spotlight. That ought to be enough. If not...she's too far gone.

iSteve.... The problem with lower price points is that they are unsustainable if you want to produce a truly high quality product. You can get a REFURBISHED macbook for an astonishingly low price. Great machines. Look it up.

utzaki.... No. Not a cheap product. They have a greater manufacturing efficiency and have consequently been able to offer their higher quality products at a lower price. They are NOT the lowest of the low.

They make a better product, have a better operating system, have more and better bundled software, have better customer support, have a better forward looking development path and a commitment to quality and taste that no other computer company has. Game over.

Blooregaurd,

Just wait until there PC's start having some problems, and quietly inform them that the Mac does not have this problem. Then periodically show them some of the cool stuff OS X can do like Expose, or Dashboard. Over time they will get the hint. I also like to use the argument that no one wants to buy a appliance (refrigerator, stove, etc.) that crashes, or in any way does not work as advertised, so why would they use a computer that did not work the way it is advertised.

Cheers

Magic Word: Help

As in, it is your job to help them see the light.

It is interesting that Jobs is using Dell's own business model against them. Dell backed itself into a corner that it can't offer the high end cheaper because it has to make up for the loss leader that is the cheap PC. Leave it to Apple to turn a company's asset into a liability. It is truly business genius.

sorry, its their, not there.

MDN needs an edit button.

Cheap is Cheap---Less expensive is Less expensive.

Words mean things.

MW--english, don't you just love it? SB capitalised.

Miyaco...

I'm constantly doing that with my fiance, since I live with her and get to see her Dell constantly crashing everytime she runs IE... In fact, I have had my G5 up for 25.75 days and everytime I hear her restart i tell her that on the side... All that happens is that she gets mad at me. Her fathers' computer is constantly having issues like freezing, overheating, losing files, and all of the other banes of windows like not being able to create a file sharing network easily... So I bring over my G5 and clamshell iBook (with 10.4.8 installed on both) and set one up in ten seconds. They still won't ever touch it. Even after they KNOW that it's better, they swear they will never use a Mac... I'm running out of ideas here...

Blooregard325i, i have found that a supportive and understanding tone has done more to convince friends to try the mac than any hard sellling. after they try, that support goes a long way to keep them on the platform. it's all about the experience. when friends tell me about their os problems, i don't berate them or ask about the symptoms or details of the problem. instead i try my best to be compassionate and ask important questions-- such as, "wow dude that sucks, did you lose anything important?"

i think it is more effective to talk about the things we share as opposed to our differences. when someone see anything i've done- dvds, movies, pages material- the quality and polish of the finished product is usually enough to pique their interest. i casually mention the application i used and when they try to find it later, it's invetible that they will discover it only exists on the mac.

i have learned over the years that the worst way to convince anyone of anything is by telling them they made a bad choice. i don't make people wrong. i don't tell people i am the answer. i am just a finger pointing to another option.

and yes, i totally refuse to do any maintenance on a pc, "i'm just not that smart."

I like my Alienware, my chosen hardware inside puts me in between the Macbook and Macbook Pro, but cost me less then the Macbook baseline. Core 2 Duo, DVD burning (Superdrive for you mac heads) and ATI X1400 128MB Video, and a 15.4" 1280x800 Widescreen all for $1083 shipped.

The speed is nice, battery is good, and gaming is awesome. Would I like a Macbook Pro? Nah, hate the aluminum and the price is just way more then I would ever pay for a laptop I would want to replace in a year. Still though, nice upgrades apple!

Beryllium wrote...

After all, as P. T. Barium said, there's a sucker born every minute

TRUE ...but a growing number of those suckers are getting smarter - fast!

And there not going to stand for Dell’s crap much longer!

Not when theirs a twofer out there that half the price!

I think these examples are a little far fetched. Dell's retail MSRP's are always inflated, and rarely what customer's actually pay at checkout. Dell heavily relies on a never-ending stream of big coupon discounts to give customers the impression of getting a bargain. Dell's final discounted prices are closer to the actual MSRP's of Apple products.

There are a lot of people who will pay over a grand for a PC. I talked to a guy at work last week. He has a G4 PB that his college gave him. He's got to give it back but he hated it anyway.

He bought a cheap PC and is happy with it. Wants to get a laptop too. I told him about the intel macs and his choice to run windows if he wants. He still thinks they are too expensive, but maybe I got him thinking.

However price is an issue for many people. The question is should Apple go for that segment. Dell have been successful in taking that market, but since then have reduced profitability and facing stiff competition with HP.

Apple entered the MP3 player market with a high priced unit. Once it took off, they introduced cheaper models including the shuffle. Now high volume makes them unbeatable in price and features.

I think that is how Apple will go with the PC market. Once they get higher volume sales of MacBooks etc they will be able to drop prices simply because the component parts will cost less.

They will add features that no other PC maker has (already do, but the differences will be greater). Lower prices and improved features will aid Macs intaking market share, but without the need to provide cheaper, at cost PCs, in the clearly now futile attempt to gain market share.

Better that Apple have 10 % market share (6% in US now) with 30 % profit margin, than 20 % share with 10-15 % margin.

To Blooregard: I agree with eggbert. I have been compassionate and supportive and then claiming that after so many years with the Mac I totally lost the touch at repairing thing as the Mac never plays tricks on me, thence I truly cannot come and fix your Windows because I lost the touch, sorry. En passant, I always add " amazing the time that I was spending on my own PC just to keep it in a working state. Hours and hours. I do other things with that recovered time now with the Mac. I realize how much it was frustrating at the time so I really can understand you but I cannot put myself through that ordeal again. It is in the past and I am glad. I am truly sorry about your issues: I know it is a real pain. I know"

Ahhh, fantastic feeling.

Alienapple.

I guess you really can't put a price on good taste, then.

"So how do I convince my die hard "We will never use fruit" windows thumping fiance and her entire family that macs are better without sounding like I'm preaching and shoving it down their throats?"

Just follow Apple's strategy--
embrace (your fiance),
and extiguish (your inlaws)

It worked for me.

Really, though, when I was newly married my wife was wary of the Mac, but as she continued to use it she saw the light. Now there's no way she would want a Winblows box. So don't get into arguments, just keep using your Mac and let her use it every chance you can.

Blooregard325i

Tell them they are all a bunch of stupid idiots and you are thinking twice about associating with them.

Just kidding....

I would merely laugh at theior machines and say...You want me to fix that??? Bwaaahhaaahhaaaa Then go back to playing with your Mac.


This is what I do with my PC-loving brothers who still tolerate me to this day.

Macsweep,
Can I be your nephew?

Duper: I have 4 Macs in the house as well. The Alienware was for power and video games. Cheers and grow up a little.

Wow, Apple beats Dell, that's assuming Dell makes the best laptop available, which is not the case. It's kind of like saying a baseball team has beaten the Cubs. Who cares?

For my part, I was in the market for a laptop that would allow me to do mobile production (After Effects, Audition, CS2 Premium, Premier or Final Cut, and Pro Tools). Since Apple has FINALLY decided to add the Core 2 Duo to the MacBook Pro, I'll compare the price of that model customized so that it resembles as closely as what HP offers and then compare them.

For the Macbook Pro:
Core 2 Duo @ 2.33Ghz
2GB 667 DDR2 SDRAM - 2x1GB
200GB SATA Drive @ 4200 RPM
8x double-layer SuperDrive
17 Apple Glossy Widescreen Display (1680x1050)
iSight camera
ATI Mobility Radeon x1600 w/256MB SDRAM
OS X
Airport Extreme Card (additional $44)

Apple's price after academic discount: $2,689 + $44 = $2,733 TOTAL

For the HP dv9000t:
Core 2 Duo @ 2Ghz
2GB 667 DDR2 SDRAM - 2x1GB
240 GB 5400 RPM SATA Dual Hard Drive (120 GB x 2)
8X LightScribe DVD+/-RW w/Double Layer
17 inch glossy widescreen (1680x1050)
HP IMPRINT Finish + Microphone + Webcam
512MB NVIDIA(R) GeForce(R) Go 7600
Intel(R) PRO/Wireless 3945ABG Network w/Bluetooth
High Capacity 8 Cell Lithium Ion Battery
System Recovery DVD w/Windows XP Professional

HP's price after academic discount: $2,083.03 TOTAL

Difference of $649.97

Pardon me for sounding frugal, but an extra 330Mhz, slower hard drive with less space, inferior graphics card, non-Lightscribe DVD-RW DL drive, non-built in wireless card, OS X and the Apple name are not worth the extra $650 I would've had to pay to purchase one. Numbers don't lie.

2.16GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
1440 x 900 pixels
1GB memory
120GB hard drive1
6x double-layer SuperDrive
ATI Mobility Radeon X1600 graphics with 128MB SDRAM
Ships: 2-4 business days
Free Shipping
$1,999.00

Why not compare it to the lattitude class of laptops? You can build one for almost exactly the same price as the apple's.

--It appears that the Dell Precision (M90) with 15.4" screen weighs 8.6 lbs, while the Mac Pro only weighs 5.6 lbs!!! This for a laptop built especially "for the road"! Interesting that the Dell's weight is nowhere to be found on the Dell web pages, even in the unit's tech specs section. The only place to find it is by downloading a pdf of the unit's brochure, then scouring the very tiny print on the back page.
--The comparable Dell Inspiron (6400), their low-end build, is indeed about $500 less expensive for similar hardware (incl. virus protection). It is about 6.2 lbs., about half-pound more than the Mac. Given the lower-quality build, I doubt such a Dell will last as long as the Mac Pro.
--On the other hand, the Dell Lattitude (D820), their business-class standard build, is still about $400 less expensive for similar hardware and virus protection. I think it's about 6 lbs, slightly heavier.
So, only by selecting the highest-end Dell build, with a strangely heavy design, is the Mac Pro less expensive.
Sorry, Apple.

Matt, why would you include an Airport card to your Mac Book Pro configuration?

Of course, I meant the MacBook Pro. (And I was including 3-year extended warranty/service.)

To be realy fair, the article's comparison would have to mention this:

Apple: AppleCare Protection Plan for MacBook Pro/PowerBook (w/or w/o Display) - Auto-enroll [Add $349]

Dell: 3 Year Business Standard Plan [Included in Price]


Let's check information before publishing? Thanks.

Because no where on Apple's site did I find that the MacBook Pro still includes wireless. Documentation for the iMac is careful to point this out, however it is lacking on the MacBook Pro. That being the case, one has to assume it does not have wireless connectivity built in anymore. Even if it does, there is still a $606 dollar difference in cost.

When one uses near slave labor to assemble computer systems they are less expensive. Paying Chinese people next to nothing makes for a less expensive computer. Simple as that...

Jobs is outsourcing jobs to China, building less expensive computers with the exact same Intel processors and chipsets, memory, and LCD displays that all other computer manufacturers are using in their systems. The only way to beat Dell on price is to use less expensive labor, since the parts cost about the same at these volumes.

So, when you get your new MacBook Pro and power it up for the first time, remember the American worker that's out of a job now.

Not that Dell or HP or Gateway will not eventually take the same route (or have done so already). But just remember, computers used to be built in America with American labor. Now the chips are manufactured in Asia. The motherboards are in manufactured in Asia. And now the final assembly is done in Asia. Software development and hardware engineering is being outsourced to Asia. All that's left in America is marketing and sales.

So, instead of cheaper or less expensive, how about "sold America down the river to lower cost?"

I stand corrected, it does come with built in wireless which leaves the cost difference at $605.97. I think I made my point though.

Do a 2.33 GHz MBP against a Lenovo Thinkpad T60; Keep MBP's specs, and upgrade the T60 until they have identical specs (except MBP has slightly larger screen)

Macbook pro $2499
Lenovo $2284

Sorry, folks. Apples may be less expensive than Dells, but they are still more costly than Thinkpads.

Dells suck anyway

"Wow, Apple beats Dell, that's assuming Dell makes the best laptop available, which is not the case. It's kind of like saying a baseball team has beaten the Cubs. Who cares?"

OUCH. That hurts.

Matt, from the tech specs on the MacBook Pro <from the tech specs on the MacBook Pro>:

Communications
Built-in 54-Mbps AirPort Extreme wireless networking (802.11g standard)(2)
Built-in Bluetooth 2.0+EDR (Enhanced Data Rate)
Built-in 10/100/1000BASE-T Gigabit Ethernet (RJ-45 connector)

I would invest 600 more to have virus free and non-slowing system with excellent programs, posibility to use unix, windows, linus with mac os x. Its not hardware after all, but software and overall usage.

Ok, I configured a Lenovo as Troll suggested.

The Z61e seems closer with the wide screen, than the T60 he used. (why not look at a MacBook if you want a smaller screen?)

After adding 2GB of RAM, Windows XP Pro,and A 120 GB drive. I got a price of $2505. Very close to Apple's $2499 price. Close enough to call it a wash. Of course, Lenovo doesn't offer free shipping.

When comparing, please use models that are close. Don't look at the cheapest thing (with different processors).

Just Looking,

Of course, the critical shortcoming of the Lenovo machine you mentioned, is that the Lenovo is not securable, unless you eliminate Windows and use Linux or BSD instead.

-jcr

I see lots of Dell bashing here. That's OK as long as you've either owned one and have had problems or know people that have had real problems with them. Before you post a negative response, you should know that I love Macs, promote them constantly, and plan to buy more. For folks that must by PCs, I always recommend Dell first. They've always been very reliable compared with other PC brands in my experience and from others that I spoken with.

RW,

Good to hear words of tolerance.

I have owned Dells in the past, used to recommend them to for people that wanted PCs. I the more recent past, their quality and support has dropped. I no longer recommend Dells.

Having bought many computers...both Mac and PC. I would rate Dell last and HP second last out of experience. I have had bettewr luck with the Toshiba laptopns which I use as workhorses in the labs (running various machines). I have a bunch of Mac laptops in my office. SInce they do not breakdown, I generally give them away to other colleagues or, if old enough, send them to Crown disposal. Only one Mac laptop ever broke (15 inch TiBook) but that is what happens when you fall on top of it!

You can buy cheap crap but my impression that if it is a PC, you are more probably renting it. After 4 years, you can give the Mac laptop away or sell it. After 4 years, you have to bury the PC.

Just Looking,

"Good to hear words of tolerance.

I have owned Dells in the past, used to recommend them to for people that wanted PCs. I the more recent past, their quality and support has dropped. I no longer recommend Dells."

-------------------------------

Sorry to hear that. I agree that their service could be a better; I hope that they'll make an effort to keep producing reliable hardware so users won't have to call and experience the support department!