MacDailyNews - Where Mac news comes first

Jul 03, 08 - 11:10 am Comment from: HMCIV

Hey guess what? I will continue to use my "old" PPC hardware until you have to pull it from my cold dead hands!! (Or until they come out with a Macbook Pro with a 1 TB SSD.)

Jul 03, 08 - 11:16 am Comment from: jarrettdailynews

what a TB?? Why not just wait for the pedabyte??

Jul 03, 08 - 11:18 am Comment from: DanielM

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out.

Jul 03, 08 - 11:19 am Comment from: Roberto

PowerPC users, keep using those computers for as long as they run, until they're 6 years old. They are great machines. Then it's time for a new Mac.

Jul 03, 08 - 11:21 am Comment from: jarrettdailynews

Should read , "Why a TB, why not just wait for the PB??"

One of the days I will learn to shit and type on this iPhone at the same time.

nothing wrong with my G4's......it's just that my Mac Pro is like a Ferrari.

Jul 03, 08 - 11:21 am Comment from: ron

Bring it on. Do it now - you're going to be dead a long time.

What about the G5 PowerBook?

Jul 03, 08 - 11:23 am Comment from: ron

"Why not just wait for the pedabyte??"

Leave the little kids alone.

I agree with this article, BUT probably still a full third of the Macs out there are running on PowerPC chips.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, 10.7 or even 10.8 should have been the cutoff from a consumer's perspective. Then again, Apple has a lot of folks smarter than me running the show.

And, no, I don't want the future of the OS held back by legacy stuff. I just want stuff I bought a couple of years not to be considered legacy.

This is spot-on. Sorry, G4 users, but you will be left behind with plenty of good stuff fully available for your machines. Food will be dropped from Dharma every month. You'll be OK.

Progress requires sacrifice, and legacy support has indeed been MS (and Intel's) undoing. Where is multi-threaded / multi-core Windows? NOWHERE.

Classic example: since the beginning of time, formatting a drive of any kind in any OS puts you in a dead wait state. Why? With a multi-core OS this should never be. But there is no true multi-core OS out there. Perhaps Snow Leopard could be a step in that direction.

This is why Apple is technologically lightyears ahead of Microsoft: they are not afraid to drop support for legacy hardware/software when it is time to do so.

It's funny to see the comment about Microsoft viz a viz legacy.. Isn't Vista impossible to run on anything but a top spec'd current PC??

Sounds much worse than Apple forgoing PPC which they stopped selling back in 2006.

Jul 03, 08 - 11:35 am Comment from: effwerd

Thank you for participating in the Apple Power PC OS X Beta. Please hand over another 3K in order to use the real OS X.

Have a nice day.

@Mid WestMac, I understand your concern, but really, can you expect improvements to continue to be made to your Mac for MORE than 2 years into the future?

After all, it isn't as though it will stop working when Snow Leop is launched.

What's the big deal? It's not like time has stopped since Snow Leopard has been announced. PPC G4/G5 computers can run Leopard for the foreseeable future. Apple will provide plenty of updates to benefit those PPC users. Heck, Apple still puts out 10.3 updates from time to time...

Keep using your PPC Mac until it doesn't do the job for you anymore.

"Isn't Vista impossible to run on anything but a top spec'd current PC??"

impossible to run on "top spec'd" too.

ha!

I agree with the article, and surely the PowerPC systems will still run Leopard as well as they ever did.

Even if they did offer this to PowerPC systems, what would be the point?
16TB RAM? No point.
Multi-Core optimisation? No point.
OpenCL? Dunno, any point?

Since PowerPC systems will not benefit from (m)any of the advances, it's a great opportunity to leave those systems 'behind', running Leopard, which most people here believe is the best OS there is to date and surely has enough years of value left in it. My laptop is a PowerBook and I'm happy to leave it with Leopard while I upgrade the other systems.

Jul 03, 08 - 11:42 am Comment from: DLMeyer

I'm retired. I walk dogs for pocket change. I like my Dual G5. It gets the job done for me. I don't want to upgrade. I don't need to upgrade. I can't AFFORD to upgrade.
Maybe, if they stuff a Quad in an iMac, I can afford that. Or if they finally come out with a Mac midi - a much less expansive, and expensive, "tower" set between the Pro and the mini. It will take more than just "Snow Leopard" and a faster CPU to hook me. Another couple of cores at a lower price point might be enough. Must walk more dogs!

Jul 03, 08 - 11:48 am Comment from: jonahan

MD I think you have forgotten about the G5 which is PPC with mutlicores. There was a Quad G5 before there was a Quad Mac Pro.

Jul 03, 08 - 11:49 am Comment from: Cubert

Wanker. Easy to say if you don't own one.

My 8 year old hardware is fine for what it does - iTunes server, email, surfing online, and full time @folding machine.

Not so easy to upgrade if you are out of a job and have limited funds.

Jul 03, 08 - 12:02 pm Comment from: ron

"Not so easy to upgrade if you are out of a job and have limited funds."

So don't upgrade already! I can't afford a new car. Guess what? I'll make do with my old one.

If Obaminate wins you'll get an upgrade for free, even on welfare.

Jul 03, 08 - 12:09 pm Comment from: Mr. Reeee

So, a complete overhaul and optimization for TODAY'S and tomorrow's hardware will be well worth the effort. Yes, it will cause some pain for many by not being able to upgrade to the latest OS. Ultimately it's the right move.

Apple has managed to establish the OS lead by cutting ties to older hardware standards and embracing the new. Snow Leopard will leave Vista and Windows 7 (whenever that appears, if ever) further back in the dust!

Where would Macs be today if the had clung to floppies, Nu-Bus, ADB, serial ports, PC Cards and SCSI?

I've done some unscientific rendering tests with the same VectorWorks 2008 files on my MacBook Pro 2.4 and a 2.4 (?) PowerMac Quad G5. The difference is astounding, probably about 3 times the speed with the MBP. I can live with that... for now.

jonahan, you're correct, I was forgetting that.

So there would be value in working on PowerPC systems, but would dual core optimisations apply to both architectures, or would you have to do all the work twice, separately for each? In which case I could see why they might not think it worthwhile. Especially with so many people saying such things are not worth paying for, and should be free updates!

I just retired my first Mac, a Titanium Powerbook 550, and replaced it with a 24" iMac (Rev.1) in December of 2007. And I just bought a Macbook Air a month ago. I would like to use the Powerbook for something but its just too slow to do anything with except play music. RIP good friend.

Jul 03, 08 - 12:17 pm Comment from: PowerPhone

this should reduce the price for used G4s, which are great for kids and grandkids.
My daughter's 1.25 GHz eMac runs great on Leopard.

And JarrettDN- you will be considered a pro when you can wipe and type....

Jul 03, 08 - 12:22 pm Comment from: Macfabulous

The "Next BIG thing"

You know... The reason Apple is turning our focus towards Snow Leopard is that they have actuallu begun work on the next "major thing".

All the OS X "feature people" are now working hard on the next (multi touch) OS that will soon be introduced as the ("Lion") king of all OS´s

With Apple´s history of secracy we all know they can´t say that the next big transition is allready under way.

Somehow they need to disguize the progress and find a way to prepare the next multi-touch hardware and software wave to be compatteble.

This thing takes time and therefore all major software programmers at Apple is now hard at work to make this happen.

Therfore the" feature-less" Snow leopard and the early info from Apple about its presence. - Because it will take a lot of work and time... They are preparing us not to get impatient and dissapointed with the speed of new "things" coming from Apple.

I do think we will see Snow Leopard as a reallity, but behind the scenes they will soon have it´s succseser ready - "Lion"

I could be wrong...

i still own a g3 pismo powerbook, running Tiger - which Im happy to accept will be the last OS it will run.

Jul 03, 08 - 12:40 pm Comment from: dd

I'm ok with the idea of dropping PPC and 2/3 of my Macs are PPC. My PB will remain at 10.3.9. My dual processor G5 will remain at 10.4.11. My MBP will continue to get the updates it can get. I'd much rather have SMALL, LEAN, EFFICIENT files within the OS itself that are not UBs and taking up unnecessary space in order to run for all systems. Let them do that stuff behind the scenes, in their labs, since we know OS X continues to lead a secret double, triple, maybe even quadruple life.

Jul 03, 08 - 12:42 pm Comment from: UltraVisitor

One of the advantages of having "no new features" is that PPC users will still be getting basically the same thing with Leopard. New updates to Leopard will include speed and stability enhancements, some probably taken straight from Snow Leopard. On the UI level, both systems will be identical. If Apple decides to add more options to Time Machine, for example, both Leopard and Snow Leopard will probably implement it.

Mac OS X 10.7 is when the PPC users will start really being left out.

Jul 03, 08 - 12:46 pm Comment from: Bobby Skinner

Apple should never drop PowerPC support. Not so we can hold on to old hardware, but to keep Universal Applications alive. Supporting both processors allows them to choose the best platform for the day. Intel made sense, not because the processors are better, but because it allowed users an easier switch to the Mac from windows - less fear. Though Intel has an edge now, IBM is not sitting still on PPC development. Nor is Freescale (formerly Motorola), who just introduced the CorIQ line of PPC based Micro-controllers - 2-8 cores at up to 1.5 GHz - these would make great iPhones in the future.

The PPC architecture is far better than the x86 architecture. Though Intel has done a great job of pushing a 1970's architecture into the 2000's, the PPC line has more room to grow. I think rather than dropping PPC support Apple should be introducing 1 PPC server into the line to keep developers making Universal Applications so they have the option to switch back on a moments notice, if for no other reason than to be a bargaining chip with intel.

Changing architectures is a big deal, but at the moment Apple can make it not a big deal in the future by keeping these processors all available, so that they have clout and can offer the best products for all industries in the future. If they drop PPC support, then so will developers and it becomes a difficult transition should they need to do it again.

Based on what Apple has stated publicly about Snow Leopard, I can see where it would make sense to not include anything that doesn't have multi-core functionality. So, with that, leaving G4 processors behind would seem reasonable. However, there are multi-core PowerPC G5 processors out there. In fact, I'm using one right now.

I've always admired Apple for making their software work on older hardware. I'd never advocate that all hardware should be supported forever, but they shouldn't use software to force the purchase of new hardware, which, whether we like it or not, is exactly what this would do to people who have hardware that really isn't that far from their "cutting edge".

My situation highlights this. I use a Quad-core G5 every day. I've used Mac Pro machines and, for day to day use, there is no difference unless you are using an application (video editing) where more cores make the job go faster. My G5 will still be covered by AppleCare when Snow Leopard comes out. That means Apple will have deemed this computer obsolete before their own HW service agreement has expired. If they are willing to treat PPC users this way now, no one is safe in the future.

My guess is that dropping PPC support in Snow Leopard has more to do with the PPC machines not being able to boot from GUID partition table drives. This probably complicates the move to ZFS for everyone if they need to support ZFS on Apple Partition Map drives for PPC machines.

I can't speak for anyone else, but if Snow Leopard ships without PPC support while my G5 is still covered under AppleCare, there will be no more Apple HW for me. Period. My PPC machines will run fine for many more years under Yellow Dog Linux or other BSD variants that support the architecture.

And, yes, I know AppleCare has, technically, nothing to do with Snow Leopard, but I'm using it to make the point that customers who have made recent (< 5 years) substantial financial investments in HW shouldn't be kicked to the side of the road for corporate expediency and/or profit. People who say to simply "suck it up and buy current hardware" need to think that through. Not everyone has only a notebook with no additional investments in PCI cards, additional RAM, etc. that would not necessarily be compatible with the current offerings.

My $0.02.

One of the biggest things I notice here is the utter lack of logic applied. So far from what we know of Snow Leopard, one of the biggest changes under the hood is the Grand Central technology, allowing use of multiple cores. If this is what Snow Leopard is about, why exactly do PPC users care that they aren't supported in this update? They get no use out of the optimization anyway

Hey Ron, asshole:

Why don't you STFU about politics since you clearly have no clue and shit for brains.

This is a Mac site not the gutter where all Obama-haters live. Now piss off.

@Frank

My G5 is multi-core so, by your logic, Apple should extend Snow Leopard to G5 machines, correct?

Jul 03, 08 - 01:45 pm Comment from: Andy

This reminds me of when Steve had to read OS9's 'last rites', hoping to compel developers and users to let go of antique tech. And frankly, I think Apple ought to down support for PowerPC. The PowerPC has had a good inning with the PowerBooks and all, but it's time Apple reached its potential with Intel chips - rather than be forever constrained with the G5.

Ask yourself, would Leopard been possible without Intel? I doubt it.

Those still on the PowerPC will still get plenty of use from their machines for a good while, but it's time Apple moved on to bigger, greater things.

Jul 03, 08 - 02:08 pm Comment from: KingMel

Quit griping. People with G5 hardware can continue to use 10.4 for years. After Snow Leopard is released and settles down, you will have a good excuse to get a new Mac in a couple of years. Then you can set the old one up as a media server or something.

Face it, things are a lot better for Mac users...

Consider the dark side of things where PC users could get new hardware, but had to keep using XP for seven years. Then the XP replacement comes along and Vista reeks.

Relax and let Apple continue to make progress. Change happens.

Jul 03, 08 - 02:15 pm Comment from: UltraVisitor

@Andy

"would Leopard been possible without Intel? I doubt it."

Umm... yeah.. Leopard does on PPC, both G4 and G5. So yes, it Leopard is possible without Intel. I see it on a daily basis.

And how would Apple be "forever constrained with the G5"? I'm sure that would have eventually released a G6; all they would need is PPC faster and more powerful than the G5. There many new PowerPC processors currently in use that fit the bill, like the ones in the XBox 360, PS3, and many different types of servers.

Jul 03, 08 - 02:20 pm Comment from: alansky

One must admit that anyone who holds onto an old PowerPC year after year, expecting it to keep running the latest software forever, is dreaming.

I think it is only griping if there is no substance to the complaint. Many consumers and business people expect a certain ROI over a period of time on computer hardware investments. Historically for Apple hardware, that has been in the 5 year range (less for other platforms). Snow Leopard has the opportunity to significantly decrease that timeframe without warning.

Apple could easily avoid this entire discussion by providing technology roadmaps similar to other computer system makers (HP, IBM, etc.). That way people would know if they were making a 1, 3, or 5 year investment based on the planned changes and product life cycles.

Anybody have any idea when Snow Leopard is expected to be released?

Dual G5 / Dual G4 / G4 iBook

Jul 03, 08 - 02:33 pm Comment from: MCCFR

"Not so easy to upgrade if you are out of a job and have limited funds."

Hold on, you're out of a job and have limited funds but you need to have 44-bit addressing, massive multi-core support and Exchange support out of the box? I can understand the QuickTime X requirement, so that you can watch pr0n more smoothly and reliably - but the rest of it seems a little cart before the horse.

Jul 03, 08 - 02:34 pm Comment from: Not Bill

PPC machines ended production about 2.5 years ago. We knew the end was coming for about a year before that. Three and a half years. Not that long a time for an apple product. Apple continues to put out updates and fixes for Tiger (10.4). There was one just this week. I expect everyone will continue to get the functionality level they purchased out of their PPC machines until the machines die or get retired. I run one machine with 10.5 and one with 10.5. I kind of like it that way. The old one is a little piece of history.

@Macfabulous You should be in advertising. You did not say much but I got really excited reading it! What ever it is they are doing, I want it. I suppose you did say it will be the touch interface language. I also suppose it will also be the new, below the surface, programming tools we have been reading about as part of Snow Leopard. Multi core functionality. Potentially unlimited RAM. Could there be more? How about being able to talk to the machine and make gestures in a seamless fashion? That would be cool. How about virtual sex? I have always thought that would be popular.

I've run 10.1 through 10.5 on my G4/533. I knew 10.5 would be the last that I could run on it because 10.5 is kinda slow as it is. Considering it is below the supported requirements, I'm glad it runs at all. (Yes, I had to force it to install.)

I'm sad, however, that the G5 will be dropped. I don't have one but I do know they're very powerful -- at my prior job I had four G5 xserves.

I'm more concerned, as others have also expressed, with the platform becoming single-architecture. Being multi-architecture forced the Universal Binary, or at least highly encouraged it, which would make it easier to introduce another architecture at some time in the future.

Some, in the past, have speculated that leaving the PPC could be a TPM and Hollywood issue.

Jul 03, 08 - 02:47 pm Comment from: Woody

@ Anonymous: You said, "My PPC machines will run fine for many more years under Yellow Dog Linux or other BSD variants that support the architecture."

Why? Leopard will continue to run on your G5 for just as many years.

Jul 03, 08 - 02:51 pm Comment from: Andy

@Ultra Visitor

Actually no, considering only the G5 could cope with multi-threading and 64-bit. Boot Camp, a new Quartz Extreme and other system changes would not be too possible on a PowerPC system without the dreaded heat penalty amongst other things.

Yes, Leopard runs on PowerPC, but it's like half the package.

Plus, the PowerPC was based on a design in the early 90s. Apple has since moved on from that era, and so did Intel when it discontinued the Pentium line(s).

All that said, OS X 1 through 4 work great on the IBM chip and will continue to do so for many more years. However, the time to face reality has already passed. The PowerPC (on the Mac platform) is obsolete. In Steve's mind, and Apple's plans...

I have absolutely no problem with Apple dropping PowerPC support with Snow Leopard. I think it's a smart choice. Contrast what Apple has done with one of the biggest problems of Windows and Windows Vista in particular: backwards compatibility. So long as Windows development is focused on backwards compatibility all the way to DOS-based applications, Windows will continue to be the clusterfuck that it is.

Not that this is a bad thing.

By making the tough decision to move on, and leave G4 and G5 users behind, Apple will be able to make dramatic advances to its OS. I say this even though I am still using G4 and G5 Macs and Tiger.

The reason why I continue to be a luddite has nothing to do with Apple, and everything to do with a key partner: Adobe. Like it or not, I have a deep legacy of files created in the former Macromedia Freehand. And frankly, I strongly prefer to use Freehand over Adobe Illustrator. The arguments over Illustrator vs. Freehand could go on endlessly in another message board, but my point here is that Adobe has done Apple users a deep disservice on several fronts:

1. Leaving Freehand users in the lurch with no clean upgrade path, or no genuine way to save files in Illustrator format cleanly. Further, many features in Freehand that we have come to depend upon are not available in Illustrator, and Adobe, in its arrogance, has chosen not to develop many wonderful features in future versions of Illustrator. When you make your livelihood in vector graphics, this is very disconcerting. My opinion of how Adobe has handled this is unprintable.

2. Photoshop: How many millions of dollars has Adobe made from Mac customers of Photoshop? If not for Mac users, Adobe would never have become the success that it is. Recently, Adobe has dragged its feet considerably on Photoshop development, claiming Apple was holding back the transition to a new code base. To that I say, bullshit. Other developers made the transition, but Adobe has waffled, and given an advantage to Photoshop users on Windows. And what do they do in return for stiffing us? They raise the pricing for Photoshop and the Creative Suite (which you basically have to buy these days) to levels beyond the affordability of small graphic design firms. And site licenses for small firms? Grab your ankles and spread your cheeks, because you're not getting any stinkin' site license discounts, even though small businesses have been steadfast supporters of Photoshop.

So instead of railing against Apple, I think customers of abusive monopolies like Adobe should be raising hell. If I were Steve Jobs, I would be furious with Adobe, because their arrogance will slow down the transition of a generation of users to newer Macs and a better OS. Sad.

* Apple promised ongoing support for PPC chips with the move to Intel.
* The more recent PPC Macs are still under warranty.
* Apple did a big song and dance about the wonders of Universal Binaries and how clever they were for creating UB as it allowed one code, multiple platforms with transparent 32/64 bit support.
* If Apple don't fold support for GHz+ PPC G4 & G5 systems into Snow Leopard, they will be facing a huge class action, like they did with the move from OS9 to OSX from the original iMac owners, because, well basically we were lied to.

I think my 1.25 MDD G4 Duallie is just about the best looking machine Apple ever made. With Gigahertz processors and two gigs of RAM it stood among the most powerful home machines in the world, for nearly half a decade. At six years, it thrives on 10.4.11.
But you know, I just started handling photo files of a size unthinkable just a couple of years ago. . . . I'm looking forward to a Nehalem Mac Pro with at least 16 gigs of RAM, running Snow Leopard.
It will "perform". (MW)