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Somebody coined it "Leoptard".

It's really sad, it's like Apple is not paying attention or a lot of people are overworked.

Something is wrong.

Stacks are fugly and useless.

Dec 04, 07 - 09:23 am Comment from: Mr. Reeee

If you check VersionTracker, there are numerous fixes to restore heirarchical menus to the Leopard Dock.

I'm still waiting for a few applications' Leopard compatibility updates before jumping to Leopard full-time.

Personally, I don't use the Dock very much, opting for LaunchBar & Spotlight.

Dec 04, 07 - 09:23 am Comment from: Snapper

No video, that's why everybody uses YouTube

Please get it done already Apple and give us back what was taken away!

By the way kewl video.

Apple software has some overloaded X-mas-tree features, let them go back to user friendly. .

Dec 04, 07 - 09:25 am Comment from: Logan

Stacks is ok. Just not awesome.

I really wish I could just have a folder in the right side of the dock though. Why can't that be an option?

Dec 04, 07 - 09:25 am Comment from: Cubert

The reason why the stack curves is because our hands do not move in a straight line easily - they move in a natural arc. Try it. Move your cursor across your screen and see the subtle arc. This is why the Dock has magnification that makes it curve. Stacks follows the same principle.

It curves to the right because 89% of people are right-handed (sorry lefties).

I, for one, prefer the grid arrangement, but I cringe every time I see the icons refresh when you open a stack with a lot of documents in it - so Winblows-like. Improve it Apple!

Dec 04, 07 - 09:28 am Comment from: Mr. Reeee

Just looked at the video... now THAT looks useful AND pretty darn cool.

You can BET some third party will be able to add this Dock functionality and probably a few surprises.

Give it time. Apple was trying to get Leopard out the door. Think of all the refinements & enhancements that every previous Mac OS X version has received during the update process.

Dec 04, 07 - 09:31 am Comment from: Macromancer

I agree. Sometimes Apple adds features that I just don't use, but still make sense. This grid and fan are both ugly and more difficult to use than the prior options.

There needs to be a haxie or pref to disable these.

Anyone who kinda hates leopards dock and the lack of hierarcical menus (and please drop the stupid see-through menubar)
tell Apple , every day, on their feedback page :

http://www.apple.com/feedback/macosx.html/

I like the concept of Stacks, I just wish it didn't replace the nested browse-able folders.

I agree with the MDN's take and will do it one better: although 10.5 is loaded with useful technology and features, the interface is very ugly indeed.

Shame on Apple for giving us this bright but homely OS.

Dec 04, 07 - 09:40 am Comment from: Realist

Clearly a Steveness marketing gimmick. Useless except for the visual - which Apple.com always has on dispay - which is the essence of Apple's approach these days - form over function.

Gloss over substance.

But, hey, it's better than the worst other OS - another milestone in Mac's new standard

Is it just me or does having a folder/stack of apps on the right side of the Dock feel inconsistent. I think grouping a set of applications (by company or function) on the left side of the Dock, with all the other apps makes a lot of sense. The Dock has only some much space.

Having spent many years designing bespoke user interfaces I can assure you all that with every UI change some like, some are indifferent and many hate.

Personally I find stacks useful in some situations and not in others. I have 2 of them on my dock and they suit my user style perfectly and get used many times each day.

The old approach to folders in 10.4 and earlier I found also useful but a little clumsy.

Clearly there are improvements that can be made but when you design something as comprehensive as an operating system you have to draw the line somewhere. Part of the Apple magic is actually in limiting options. Part of the Windows bloat is on trying to provide too many options.

At the end of the day --- if you don't like a feature just don't use it. But always consider adapting your own way of working as part of an ongoing experiment.

Dec 04, 07 - 09:51 am Comment from: shiftOpt k

I haven't had the privilege (or misfortune, depending on who you talk to) of using Leopard yet, but do think the Stacks function has a great purpose. Well, if it's used the way it was in beta versions—and like in that video—that is. You know, it will be a great function if done the way it was in the video b/c it will keep your dock from stretching from one end of the screen to the other and the icons from being a miniscule pixel-sized dot. It'll make the dock a little more functional b/c you would actually be able to see the icons on it—I'm talking to all y'all that have most everything on your computer, on your dock that is. Also, it will help with organization by keeping like apps/items together. Here's to hoping Apple will 'unlock' this feature in a future software update!

Apple buys a lot of "cool" creative ideas from other companies/people.

For instance the iPod, Coverflow and iTunes visuals all came from OUTSIDE the company.

That should tell you something right there.

I use stacks all the time they are great. Like add a application stack which makes it much quicker to get to your app. Also there was a command posted a couple weeks to add a recent apps stack which works great I'm sure that works for recent docs as well. I think apple got it spot on

Dec 04, 07 - 10:04 am Comment from: TowerTone

I bought the family pack. It improved my iMac Core Duo a bit, but it really helped my kids eMac 1.25, up from Panther. I was then able to update iLife, and can't believe how much more useful their computer is now.

I loaded Onyx on theirs to be able to lock the Dock. Maybe they will unlock this feature at some point.

Dec 04, 07 - 10:07 am Comment from: Woody

Application stacks would totally kill my desire for a return of hierarchical menus to the dock. I used to keep a folder with subfolders for "Utilities" and "Graphics" and so on, with application aliases inside. That's the only thing I've needed it for, but it still wouldn't hurt to have that option back. Someone, please find that little "defaults write com.apple.dock..." string so we can get this!

Dec 04, 07 - 10:12 am Comment from: MacBill

APPLE: FIX THE FUCKING DOCK!!

Dec 04, 07 - 10:13 am Comment from: Crazy Ed

Just get Quicksilver... you'll never use the dock again!

I like stacks and the way they work. They definitely clear the clutter. I especially like the fact that I can put a folder in a stack, click on it, and the folder opens. That's very useful for me. I created three folders, put aliases to commonly used programs into them, and dragged the three folders to the dock to serve as stacks. I go to the Applications folder for programs I don't use very often.

Another feature that is great is that I can pluck things out of the downloads fan or grid and put them in the trash.

I think the problem is that when there is a change in the UI, you have to give it some time.

The video doesn't work... You Tube it or quicktime it!

It is not scalable beyond a handful of items. Translation: eye candy.

Holy poop. That's what I want! The Applications stack is pretty much useless, or at least crippled, if you have more apps so that all of them don't fit there - you're forced to open Finder to get to your apps.

Enable this feature ASAP, Apple!!!

Don't be stupid. The dock is curved so that people don't confound with folders and icons on the desktop.

Dec 04, 07 - 10:45 am Comment from: Escaport

You can basically do the same thing without this code.

First you create a folder where ever you want out of the way.

Make aliases of things/apps you want in the folder.

Move aliases into the folder.

Place folder in the dock.

Effect achieved. Not quite as fast and elegant as the demo in that movie, but reaches the same goal.

I've been using stacks and aliases of apps as my app launcher for quite a while now. Works well.

Dec 04, 07 - 10:46 am Comment from: MacSheikh

I don't get it...can't see any video on his page. Help?

Back many years ago I Alpha tested then Beta tested some software called Click-Change that was amazing.

You could change and customize the look of your windows, buttons, menu bars and so on.

You could even create your own set of custom windows, buttons and such and post them on line too.

We need something like Click-Change for 10.5 with the additional feature of customizing the dock and so on.

I'm sure it would sell very well and I'd pay $39.95 or so if it was worth it.

Dec 04, 07 - 11:13 am Comment from: Spark

What a bunch a babies! Okay, Stacks is not what it should or could be. But what's with the "Leoptard" and "misfortune of running Leopard" crap, and cursing at Apple. Leopard is very nice upgrade with a ton of excellent features... and it's faster than Tiger. Whatever reason Apple engineers hobbled Stacks, I suspect it was a good one that is currently being resolved. Just because you're on an anonymous chat board doesn't mean you have to embarrass yourselves with immature whining and general ingratitude. Grow up.

Dec 04, 07 - 11:40 am Comment from: ron

Cubert. It curves to the right because 89% of people are right-handed (sorry lefties).

All humans are born right handed, only the gifted overcome it.

11% of humans are left handed. 20% of artists are left handed.

Dec 04, 07 - 11:42 am Comment from: ChrissyOne

If I can't drill down through the file system then the dock gets a big fat FAIL. The stack fan is cheesy, useless, and gimmicky. And it's just plain revolting to look at. Almost the firs thing I do with a new OSX install is to put copies of all my local volumes and my most used network volumes into the dock. I can get anywhere with a right click.

But no more.

FAIL, Apple. FAIL FAIL FAIL.

Dec 04, 07 - 11:44 am Comment from: Cubert

My opinion. Leopard is way better than Tiger, even at this stage. The speed and stability FAR outweigh and minor bitches like this.

And, pete,
The iPod was developed internally at Apple. They did subcontract things out, but they do that all the time. They did not "buy" the iPod from another company like you imply.

This happens after every upgrade. It's never the case that everyone likes every change, and the haters whine about it incessantly until they finally get used to it or give up. Then, when the next OS update is finally ready, they whine incessantly about the changes they don't like in that one, and suddenly hold up the previous OS as the gold standard. It's the same with Windows. Of course, it undoubtedly has something to do with all the fine-tuning point releases between now and then, and the fact that people have trouble remembering that there's usually flaws in every brand new release of Mac OS.

I distinctly remember that when Tiger came out, there was tons of people saying "Wtf, it's more buggy and less stable than 10.3, this OS sucks, Apple screwed us all, Tiger sucks", but by the time 10.5 comes out everyone loves Tiger and decries the changes in Leopard. Pretty much any of the new features or changes in Leopard, you can find someone who loves it, someone who hates it.

Personally I'm indifferent to most of the changes people are whining about (ooh, a the menu bar is transparent, who friggin cares, seriously), and I find a lot of the changes really useful, but some people just like to complain every time everything isn't exactly perfect.

MDN MW: "Side", as in "Some people just can't ever see both sides of an issue."

P.S. I like the new Stacks features, including the "fan" setting... it's a quick way to get to my latest downloads, and if I need something more, I *gasp* flip to the finder, which takes all of a second with command-tab, and *gasp* gives you access to hierarchical folder view! Or just use spotlight...

Dec 04, 07 - 11:53 am Comment from: shiftOpt k

@Spark,

Whoa, whoa, whoa now… I was just stating that there have been some complaints about Leopard, so, depending on how you talk to about it, you'll get either that using it is awesome or loathsome. I def wasn't 'whining' about it as I haven't used it yet, but am sure it will be a privilege, imo, to do so. (I tend to be somewhat of a fanboy. I mean, look at my screen name 4col, lol). I mean, I was praising the Stacks feature where many have been 'whining' about it. Anyway, just wanted to set the record straight that I'm def not whining about any of this… as I have really no place to since I haven't used Leopard yet. Plus, I don't tend to 'whine' about stuff like this, for the most part.

But, you know, if I were complaining about Leopard, I have every right to… just as you have every right to defend it (just maybe not so derogatorily, tho). :-D

Dec 04, 07 - 12:00 pm Comment from: Cubert

ron,
Correct you are. And, all of us are female initially and only the best escape to turn male.

(ducks)

If you are having trouble viewing the video (as opposed to just opening the page!) go into your "System Prefs > Quicktime" and activate "Enable Flash".

Worked for me.

The version of stacks it shows does certainly look better, but then I am resisting Leopard till I get Quark XPress and Creative Suite stable and a copy of Helvetica Neue LT etc.

I'm still using Tiger.

You know what? It still feels pretty snappy!

Dec 04, 07 - 12:09 pm Comment from: Micro Me

Late to the party, but I'll again add my voice to those describing Stacks as fugly, cheesy and useless.

Give us the ability to turn it off Apple, and restore the hierarchical menu feature.

And while you're about it, please give us the ability to turn off transparency in the menu bar. My third party fix is cumbersome.

Dec 04, 07 - 12:18 pm Comment from: iamdj

Please fix the video or give a mirror site please.

Dec 04, 07 - 12:48 pm Comment from: mike k.

you need to have the latest Flash player for the video to show up in Safari. It shows up fine in Firefox with the old player.

Dec 04, 07 - 12:58 pm Comment from: DLMeyer

The video is fine. Have you enabled Flash?

The user interface is fine. OK, the one in the video is "better".

I was using "Stacks" in Tiger - still am, on my wife's Al iMac. It just isn't "built in".

I've spent ~$400 this year to update my system and will spend a bit more - maybe - when Bento goes on sale. It's like having a new computer! OK, I could have passed on the iLife Family pack. Maybe. This has been a good year for Apple, even if Leopard's launch was a bit ... buggy? ... not as clean as those for 10.2, .3 and .4 were.
Dave

Dec 04, 07 - 01:07 pm Comment from: ken1w

Apple just needs to provide a third view option for Stacks called "List." Have it act like the way folders did in Tiger's Dock, including the hierarchical navigation. Also, it would be nice if there was a checkbox option to make the "stack" icon look like the parent folder instead of a stack of icons.

Instead of just complaining about it here, I suggest you send Apple feedback about it. Here...

http://www.apple.com/feedback/macosx.html

> It curves to the right because 89% of people are right-handed (sorry lefties).

Cubert, that point is somewhat irrelevant. Many right-handed users use the mouse with the left hand. Pointing and clicking is pretty easy with either hand. For righties, using the left-hand for the mouse leaves the right-hand free (simultaneously) for things the require more dexterity, such as writing on paper, using the numeric keypad, or using a Wacom tablet. Try it.

Also, Apple has traditionally designed "symmetrical" products. That's why the trackpad on Apple laptops are always centered instead of off to the left. The 17-inch MacBook does not have a numeric keypad on the right, even though there is room. Apple's mice are not strangely shaped like many "ergonomic" mice. So having the "fan" curve to the right without an option to make it go left is against Apple philosophy; it just seems wrong.

Dec 04, 07 - 01:12 pm Comment from: Eric

That is almost identical to the setup that I have on Leopard already, though I did it manually...

Here's how I did it:

1: I simply created a folder which I called "Stacks", and created more folders within called whatever made sense as a stack group (such as productivity, creative, etc., but the names are not important.

2: I then made aliases of the apps I wanted in wach stack, and moved the aliases to the appropriate stack group folder.

3: Added the stack group folders to my Dock.

That's all there is to it. It works great.

Only a couple differences exist:

1: The stacks are on the RIGHT side of the dock (big deal!)

2: You have to do this manually as I did, but it's not something you're likely to change daily, so who cares?

3: The sort order of the apps in the stack is per the sort order of the folder, but there is a kludge to sort them any way you want.. Just add one or more leading spaces to the beginning of an app name and sort the group alphabetically.

However, if Apple or a third party added this feature, that would be nice, though I doubt I would pay for it considering the relative ease of doing it for free. YMMV

Try this!

http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=20071027195419540

Dec 04, 07 - 01:51 pm Comment from: Brau

My hope is that Apple peruses these long comment lists and changes the way Stacks currently operate. Leaving out a core feature by not including an option to view stacks as a hierarchical menu is a complete gaff on their part. Leopard won't find its way onto my machines until changes are made.

I'm afraid I have to agree. I've replaced the idiot mouse with a Kensington scroll mouse, and a fast/simple right click displays a folders contents, . . . in Tiger. Stacks is just gaudy confusing clutter. I've spent a lot of money on Apple equipment is the last few years. I find this pretty much a deal breaker towards an OS upgrade.

Stacks is a good idea, but it needs some TLC to get it to where it should be. Right now I find it more distracting/irritating than useful, mainly because:

1) It's incredibly difficult to tell which stacks icons are what (without scrubbing over them), due to the sloppy pasting of icons on top of each other. Stacks need to show the original folder's icon, and then maybe lying next to that, the icons of their contents with some perspective applied as though they are actually lying flat in a stack.

2) With any large number of items, you don't know what will be visible. I have a Stack of the Applications folder, but before clicking on it, I always find myself thinking... "Let's see, the app I need starts with the letter P, so it might not show up in the stack." Why not use the same magnification technology the Dock has, so that the icons in a stack always shrink to fit the available space? (Yeah, it might get crazy if you put a folder with 1,000 items in your Dock, but that's your choice)

Stacks does just what my mom expects, it just works for her to find her latest downloads.

Dec 04, 07 - 04:40 pm Comment from: toby

I put my Dock on the left hand side and maybe that's the difference.

I don't mind it at all, in fact I find it much improved.