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Thanks Steve for the quality insight! I'll give it a try.

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Sent from my iPhone

SteveJack, you almost make me want to go buy a camcorder - great argument.

Stevejack hits the nail on the head. This is pretty much what I have been saying all along as well.

No matter what Apple says (sorry MDN), iMovie '08 still sucks!

If what Apple is stating were true there would not have been such a strong negative reaction to the less than "improved" iMovie '08.

Things are going well at the moment, but Apple is dangerously out of touch with its base, no matter their spin.

MDN is 100% wrong. In their mind Apple can do no wrong. Whatever Apple does is a revolution and anyone else is dumb shit. I love my Macs, Apple software, and iPods (many). But I don't love them blindly. iMovie 08 sucks ass. It went from a program you could make beautiful intriguing movies on to a watered down app you can't make anything nice on. Throwing together 2 second clips? Common Apple.

At least we still have the real iMovie around. For now.

???,

SteveJack has criticized Apple in the past. One that springs to mind: http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/473/

For the FIRST TIME ever, I am actually editing video content. iMovie '08 is the only video editing application I have ever felt comfortable working with! I'm sure there are others like me who never used iMovie '06 and will NEVER use prosumer/professional video programs. Apple has their market pegged. Longtime iMovie users angry at Apple probably should have been using FCE/FCP all along.

My 11 year old son, who likes playing on computer but not working on them, picked up iMovie with no problem. I helped him import the footage, showed him how to trim and order the clips, and he did the rest. TItles, music, transitions...... I can appreciate wanting to make a more entry level editor, but what the lack of 3rd party support in the NEW iMovie. Does Apple really expect those who knew how to use iMovie to move on to Final Cut Express?

Personally, the technical side of editing with iMovie 06 is easy. It is picking what to show and what NOT to show that I find difficult.

Forget iMovie...... we need the ability to edit our own posts!

Sorry about the grammar. That's why I draw for a living.

yes... finally a reasonable article. This software, although I haven't used it... I have looked into it's capabilities and am very aware of the alternatives as I work in the film industry, looks very (VERY) promising for what it was created for. Damn the whiners... everyone should be able to create... and now they can.

This article sums it all up, and SteveJack is correct. iMovie '08 is a superior product, especially for non-geeks.

MacArch,

"Does Apple really expect those who knew how to use iMovie to move on to Final Cut Express?"

Not really. As explained above by SJ, Apple expects those who knew how to use iMovie to use iMovie '06 HD while learning the new iMovie '08. The more advanced users actually should move to Final Cut Express.

@Consumer Video Editor
I am 100% in the same boat! I gave iMovie a little bit of time when I switched, but gave up, and never touched again.

iMovie 08, is a snap for an idiot like me

I understand the feelings of the iMovie 06 crowd, maybe they should make two versions of iMovie, one for us (08) and another (updated 06) and give them different names, and support them both?

thanks, makes me want to say my dual 1.8 g5 is really a fossil and not capable of running consumer software.

Sorry MDN.... normally I agree. While iMovie 08 has potential, it is still not yet up to snuff. Using Themes in 06 along with more FX options etc. makes me feel like I have given up a lot to move back to the first iteration of a piece of software. I don't doubt that given time, Themes and FX may be added. On the other hand, while more FX may be added, it is possible Themes will not be. That would be a shame as it is super impressive and very easy to use and could make amateur movies look much more professional.

I think iMovie 09 or iMovie X will win the argument about the better movie player. If Themes and more FX options had been added, we wouldn't be having this discussion. At least from my perspective.

And simply saying "Well, you can still download and use iMovie 6" is weak as I don't really want to use two different programs. Themes and FX are two things that really make things easier for users.

If I want to put people to sleep...
I'll put golf on TV...
serve a pitcher of strong drink...
or show home video.

I have been editing videos on my computers for years. When I was a PC guy it was Premier Pro, but I since moved to the mac I started using Final Cut Pro. I understand FCP and use it for most of my projects (I also understand it is expensive). With iMovie I wanted to use it for simple projects that didn't need the power of FCP, but I could never get comfortable with it. As a very stripped down version of FCP it frustrated me at every turn. I consequently never used it. I have had a look at iMovie 8 and have found it perfect to do those simple projects and I agree with SteveJack, it is fantastic for these types of projects. For those that like iMovie 06 you could simply stick with it, but I suspect that many of you would find that FCP or FCE (which I have not used) may cover all the areas that you feel iMovie 06 is missing. For me I will love using iMovie 08 for my quick and simple projects. I am also getting my daughters interested in video editing with iMovie 08. By the way none of my projects are of a commercial nature.

Well, if Rob Schoeben, Apple's vice president of applications and product marketing says the consumer video-editing industry is dying, that sure must be true. After all, Apple releases a new version of iMovie which has alienated most previous iMove users, why admit their mistake ? No, they will keep saying this is better. I believe Apple is now run by ex car dealers, the type that says a station wagon or a SUV suits a widowed retired man while a compact or mid-size would. Gimme a break.

MDN, are you alright ? I hope you won't start crying because some Apple bashing is going on within your own forum. What a change from MS/Windows bashing, huh ?

It's good to know that Apple is finally catering to the idiots among us. If you can't figure out iMovie 6, you're a moron. Trouble is people want everything "now". Forget "learning" a new piece of software, even if it is superior. If they can't figure it out in 15 seconds, they're done!

This mentality says a lot about our society. Dumb it down to the lowest common denominator and people will flock to it.

yeah... I gotta say... no matter how "great" this version of imovie is, I would love to know why the timeline was taken away. Was it too "complex?"

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Apple should have left iMovie '06 on the iLife disc as iMovie Classic (and ceased further dev); and then put the new iMovie on there as well as a completely new product (with new name) for the YouTube crowd. This would have been much better for PR than the "oh well, you can download it for free" band-aid solution that they have now implemented.

Why would that have been so hard? What can be bad about 1) increasing the number of iLife apps, 2) not removing a very useful product that many people do put to good use (with its large number of plug-ins, etc), and 3) not apparently alienating current customers?

I like iMovie '08, but it is quite limited in comparison to '06 (for 90% of my editing, however, I use Final Cut Pro). I think that it's a very steep climb both financially and intellectually for people to move from iMovie Classic to Final Cut Express or even FCP (essentially the same thing workflow and UI-wise).

Basically, iMovie '06 needs to still be included in the iLife lineup as a value-added addition to the suite, while the new iMovie earns its colours.

That's my point.

Steve, a good justification of your position. I don't use iMovie, so I can't comment on the relative attributes of the old and new. However, I'm hoping iMovie 08 will be less intimidating to my 80+ father, who hasn't mastered iMovie to date, but would still like to edit his numerous family videos.

1: Pay for iLife upgrade to lose iMovie features
2: Buy FCE to regain lost iMovie features.
3: Apple makes DOUBLE Profit.

I think the accountants were in charge of this move and the 20 year old, perfect eyesight, never used a glare screen types were in charge when the glossy only screens were commanded.

I'm feeling like a M$ Stockholm Syndrome victim again, except it's from the fruit company based in smoggy hot Cupertino.

Don't get me started about the Intel switch, WIndows on a Mac and the numerous Mac OS X security issues, some still not fixed.

It's got to be the smog in Cupertino screwing with Apple Co. brains

Yes I visted the mothership, so you know I'm not lying.

Hey SteveJack!!

It sure took you awhile to try to put a spin on this Apple disaster.

Not convincing I'm afraid.

Apple has been consistantly fscking it's longtime user base.

Updates? We NEVER paid for updates!! For years!!!

We we rewarded for our hardware loyalty, not anymore!!

Now we have to pay for Mac OS X and iLife updates, and Appleworks is now history for the paid Pages/Numbers etc?

Now we get paid updates that take features away?

WTF is next? When will the greed end?

"If I were running Apple, I would milk the Macintosh for all it's worth -- and get busy on the next great thing. The PC wars are over. Done. Microsoft won a long time ago."

-- Steve Jobs - Fortune, Feb. 19, 1996

iMovie User (aka Stupid Fsck),

1. Pay for iLife '08.
2. Apple has made iMovie '06 HD available to you free-of-charge.
3. There is no step 3.

As SteveJack so eloquently stated, "With a little less knee-jerk and a little more exploration, I think you'll find that iMovie '08 is a revelation."

319 reviews of iLife 08 at the Apple Store online. The majority of them overwhelmingly negative towards the iMovie portion of the software release.

I guess, according to Steve Jack, that the negative reviews are "knee jerk" and the positive reviews aren't.
________________________________

Steve Jack said... "While I'm disappointed that some iMovie users aren't embracing change as readily as I believe Mac users should, I can empathize. You used to know how iMovie worked and now you don't. The temptation to just give up and scream is very real, but change is hard and, in this case, it's worth it. This whole brouhaha reminds me so much of the move from Mac OS 9 to Mac OS X!"
________________________________

ok.. a couple of things, maybe three.

1. it's not about not knowing how the new program works. I've used the program a ton since it's release trying to learn to like it... It's about FEATURE LOSS!

Gawd.. if I have to read one more paternalistic post implying "I know it's hard to learn a new program, but come on little one, you can do it!!!" - I'll just puke. IT'S ABOUT FEATURE LOSS DAMMIT!

And don't give me that crap about still having iMovie 06. Yes, I still have iMovie 06, but who knows if it's gonna work on Leopard. Who could imagine that the mac's sold just 1 1/2 years ago wouldn't be able to run this software release.

2. About the brouhaha over iMovie 06 becoming Magic-Movie 08 and it reminding you of the OS9 to OSX dust up. It's easy to say that from this side of the OS9/OSX dividing line. That's also assuming that what Apple has named iMovie 08 will be successful, which by the looks of it's reviews so far it won't.

3. I can't imagine that Apple didn't do some research to see how this version of iMovie would be received by the large user base it has. Knowing that this would be a tough sell, and having an extra 8 months to get it right. I don't understand how they couldn't get a few more of the previous software features in iMovie 08 to help. Oh like, how about Chapters that you can set the time on, or a few more video effects, or a second audio track. How about an audio fade at the end of the movie - now THERE'S something you don't think of every day. Right now it's set at 1 second and you can't change that. Even for beginners this is gonna suck.

This is an entry level piece of software in features, that is replacing a mid range piece of software in features. The fact that people don't get this baffles me. The fact that Apple didn't see this coming, or did see it coming and decided to FSCK their current user base for new sales seriously pisses me off.

Branded,

• AppleWorks had a price. Fool.
• New versions of Mac OS X always had a price. Fool.
• New versions of iLife always had a price. Fool.
• Jobs said that when he wasn't with Apple. Fool.
• If you think the "The PC wars are over,' you're an even bigger fool. Which would make you the most immense fool ever. Fool.

name withheld...,

319 reviews of iLife 08 at the Apple Store online is a pitifully small percentage of users. Knee-jerkers, obviously.

You need to re-read SteveJack's take - he's 100% right.

iMovie is SUPPOSED to be an entry-level app. It wasn't. Now it is. It has been fixed.

Apple deserves to be applauded.

iMovie '06 HD will work with Leopard, guaranteed.

That will give you more time to finally wise up and realize that iMovie '08 is indeed the revelation and triumph SJ has described it to be.

Just amazed with all those 'long time mac-using fan-base whiners'.
It's not you 'fan/user base' that brings in the money or market-share. It's the crowd that starts to buy Apple products right now. If you are one of those long-time users with so much knowledge, then you've voided your rights on complaining about a program become more mainstream.

Wake up and just face it. Mainstream has, in Apple's perspective, always been: more easy to use and with less bells and whistles to confuse.

And exactly that is what Apple is doing and SteveJack is defending right here.
What's the point anyway. Apple is more than generous with continued support for '06 HD...
Using Apple products since 2003, became a zealot talking to other people about it, converted quite some people, but can't agree more on SteveJack's comment.
iMovie was not for J6P...period...

I'm sick of reviewers saying if you don't like iMovie 8 then just buy Final Cut Express. Most consumers are not going to spend $299 on a piece of software to make home movies. If you're using it for a small business perhaps. Even David Pogue was using iMovie 6 for his videos.

The exclusion of chapters markers is a deal breaker for me. If they put them back, I might consider using iMovie 8. I had heard something about using GarageBand to add chapter markers. If Apple expects me to export my iMovie into GarageBand, then export that into iDVD; I'd hardly call that a speedier workflow. Apple... just put back all the missing features in an updater. Do NOT wait until iLife 09. Half your audience will be missing.

@Final Cut Pro Pro
thanks for taking the time to read and respond.

"319 reviews of iLife 08 at the Apple Store online is a pitifully small percentage of users. Knee-jerkers, obviously." - and the 90+ positive reviews of iWork 08 are not? Come on, it's representative of the larger group. What... you think there is an organized group of upset iMovie 06 users typing away on their macs astroturfing the Apple Store online? Get real. If this isn't a big enough sample for you. Check out the iMovie discussion boards. There are thousands of posts there. Just hang there for awhile during the day and see what get's posted, what get's deleted, and how fast.
_____

"You need to re-read SteveJack's take - he's 100% right." - at your suggestion I did, and I disagree.
_____

"iMovie is SUPPOSED to be an entry-level app. It wasn't. Now it is. It has been fixed." - Frankly - this argument is silly. And is my car SUPPOSED to be just about getting from point A to point B? What it's supposed to be and what it's become are two completely different things. Your argument smacks of the original MDN post on this subject that basically said, "you'll eat what is put in front of you, and like it." - well no, I don't like it. I have grown used to a certain feature set, and to sell me less and call it an upgrade, or to suggest that all of the previous versions were too feature rich, or that I should be happy to have gotten what I did for $15 and change is specious at best.
________

"Apple deserves to be applauded." - as a loyal Apple customer since 1982, a mac owner since 84, and stockholder who stuck it out through the nightmare of Scully, again I disagree. Screwing over your current customers to find new ones is never good business. Apple dropped the ball on this and should be told so.
________

"iMovie '06 HD will work with Leopard, guaranteed." - BEST news I've heard so far. How do you know this as fact?
________

"That will give you more time to finally wise up and realize that iMovie '08 is indeed the revelation and triumph SJ has described it to be." - iMovie 08 is a great piece of software to go after new customers. I disagree that - 06 was difficult. My 74 year old mom learned it in a weekend. Let's leave the hyperbole of "revelation and triumph" out and call it what it is. A feature poor, entry level video compositing program that works for the lowest common denominator of customer. Apple made this change either knowing that it would upset the user base of customers it has and didn't care if it did, or didn't do it's homework and didn't come up with a plan to minimize this cluster fsck.

iMovie 08 is way ahead of iMovie 06.

Far better organisation, far quicker interaction, no rendering and non-destructive editing - what's not to like?

Instead of complaining about iMovie 08, why don't you give it a try?

If you use iMovie 08 for editing and GarageBand for the sound edit - you can make very pro stuff super quickly.

It looks like many long-time iMovie users are really angered by the omission of the timeline. But who said the timeline is the best way to edit movies? Even though I've yet to get my hands on iMovie '08, I love it allready. It's a great and nessecary paradigm shift. I discovered something similar in music production, when I picked up a copy of Ableton's Live 6.0. There's a timeline, but the main creative concept is very much like iMovie. Small blocks containing audio or midi, which are very easy to mix and match quickly. I believe we'll se a lot more development away from the timeline in both audio and video in the coming years.

What makes me laugh are all those people that believe that iMovie was a difficult program with an ever increasing learning curve. As part of the iLife suite, I find it difficult to believe that anyone would be able to work with Garage Band and/or iWeb, but yet find iMovie a daunting piece of software. And yes, I realize that not everyone uses Garage Band and iWeb, but the point is that they are both part of the iLife Suite and, IMHO, have much more of a learning curve than iMovie.
Apple is catering to the UTube idiots ( sorry, that is redundant), Proof : Steve's dismissal of the future use/importance of DVD's as a means of sharing your movies.

I'm getting sick of all these iMovie HD commentards. Please spare us the drama queen routine. SteveJack has it totally right.

You don't need to love everything about iMovie '08 but most you haters act like Apple drop kicked your dog into freeway traffic. Don't try to convince me or anyway else that's the way you feel either because we frankly don't give a damn about your hurt feelings. Maybe if the lot of you acted like reasonable adults instead of screaming spoiled rotten children, the rest of us would feel more sympathetic but most of us don't appreciate virulent foaming-at-the-mouth commentards.

If iMovie is such a deal-breaker, shut up and vote with your wallet. That will allow the rest of us to enjoy iLife '08 in peace, with or without iMovie. Go and organize a boycott or whatever but stop trying to hold the rest of us back by insisting iMovie should be Final Cut Express. Either you really are video gods who need a program like FCP or you are just elitist snobs for insisting anyone who likes iMovie '08 must be brainwashed morons.

I'm SOOOOOO glad Apple refuses to apologize because many of you were spewing the hate when Apple moved to OS X, when Steve Jobs secured a truce with Microsoft to insure continued development of Mac Office ("BOOOO!"), when they introduced the iPod ("this means Apple is abandoning the Mac!"), when they switched to Intel, when they dropped "Computer" from their name etc. Apple would be long dead and buried if it had kowtowed to you "thinking different" hate-every-new-change-because-it-lowers-me-to-the-level-of-peasant-boobs.

Just go back to Windows and pretend life is better over there because Microsoft is always about more of the same. Apple truly doesn't need customers like you, and the only reason is that the lot of you insist like it's a holy right to act so destructive, close-minded and anti-constructive.

iMovie 08 is super quick. We moved certain works from FinalCut Pro to iMovie 08 just for the cheer speed of editing. (ie low budget editing like weddings and stuff.) Apple is heading to the right direction. Did you buy more AAPL? There is a good window of oppotunity now.

Apple's old message to PC users: Come over to Apple and see how software can actually be both powerful and simple to use.
Apple's new message to PC users: Nevermind, we'll just make crappy software, and you'll feel right at home.

It's not a question of not being able to learn iMovie '06, I rarely have video footage to edit and I just can't be bothered to spend the time learning and using an app to trim a few bits out, combine others together and add a quick soundtrack on video that I don't plan to archive or watch hundreds of times. Most of the stuff I have I want to watch in a reasonable form a few times whilst it's still relevant to me. Anything I want to keep I can spend the time to do in iMovie '06 but basically I typically couldn't be bothered. iMovie is quick and easy - that's what suits my workflow for my limited video requirements.

Geez...so much energy for essentially a $20 application (either iMovie 06 or 08). Prior users...you still have iMovie 06, so why the fuss.

I'm glad for iMovie 08. I don't care about the bells and whistles. I just want a basic video editor. Thanks Apple for making things simple again. MDN is right on the money.

I work in video editing too, and we are moving from Final Cut to iMovie 08. It's amazing with it's non-render, realtime, non-destructive, super-fast interaction. It's also wicked how easy it is to move from projects from iMovie 08 to Final Cut for finishing up.

iMovie 08 is the best thing that has happened in video editing in 10 years. My colleagues and I are completely blown away.

I find it baffling that some dislike iMovie 08.

I don't use either program but whenever something like this happens, I basically don't listen for a few months. There is always resistance to change and, yes, there are always people who will blindly worship products out of brand loyalty, so you have to let all that get filtered out before you can start taking anyone seriously.

Ask a hundred people on the street their favourite movie of all time and often what you'll get is their favourite movie this year because they're still excited about it.

Objectivity requires distance.

"we used to complain when Avid moved one button or changed an icon"

Always loved Avid... a little piece of Windows on a Mac. Avid's GUI is better known as an "inyerface." Glad to see that Apple isn't afraid to stir things up. I've seen beginning editors labor over how many frames to hold or cut a shot, and I'd tell them, "you edit with your eyes and your ears. Ignore the numbers."

Steve Jack's right. iMovie 08 is a great piece of software, unusual for some to use, but the right direction. And I'm really glad to see Apple ain't excusing. And to see more folks that are pro-iMovie.
Funny to see how people become more rational once a balanced opinion is published... .

I still don't get all the complaints. If you all love iMovie '06 so much, why don't you just keep using it? When a new version of a software program comes out the old version doesn't just automatically stop working. Apple even took it one step further and made sure that the new iMovie didn't even upgrade/overwrite the old one. If you don't like '08, just drag it to the trash and keep using your beloved '06.

As for why the general response online seems to be negative, isn't that ALWAYS the way? The unhappy are always more vocal than the satisfied...

I think that Apple has reposition iMovie ‘08. Is has less abilities but you have to look to the iLife suite has a global thing. If you want to adjust the movie soundtrack or add bookmarks to your movie you have to jump to GarageBand now. And when done jump again to iDVD. This is a new way with more steps but it gives you more than iLife’ 06.
I’ve published on my blog an extensive opinion about this new iMovie ‘08 issues. If you want to know more about my thoughts go to here:
http://armpauloferreira.blogspot.com/

I don't get the explaination SJ gave during the iLife '08 presentation. An Apple engineer couldn't do a short film with iMovie 06 ? What SJ demonstrated (well, rather like 'showed') with iMovie 08 can be achieved easily with iMovie 06, should you spend a little time to learn how to use it - no more (or hardly) than you need to learn iMovie 08.

The positive enhancements of iMovie 08 are the movie library and the fact that you don't remove the video sequences when you drag and drop them in your video project. These don't quite justify the removal of previous functions iMovie users were used to.

I also don't quite agree with SJ when he says online video is the future and DVD are passé. Why not say we get rid off paper and printers because online publications are the future ? Users have a need for both online and DVD viewing.

"if what Apple is stating were true there would not have been such a strong negative reaction to the less than "improved" iMovie '08."

No, if what Apple said is true,there SHOULD have been a strong negative reaction. Did you get the point of SteveJacks commentary?

Reading for comprehension my friend. Try it sometime.

SteveJack has it exactly right! I've used any version of iMovie maybe 2x, and I've been using Macs since before OS X. iMovie 08 looks to be exactly what I need and wanted all along. Apple knows it's intended market and how to cater to me, the CONSUMER. iMovie 06 was just too much like a pro app to be truly easy to use. It was powerful, and with many options, but easy? NO WAY!

BS. Don't try to tell me what I want and don't want MDN.

I have no problem learning iMovie '08. What I'm not happy about is all of the editing features that have been removed. I'm perfectly happy keeping iMovie '06 as long as Apple tells me that they will continue to support and develop it.

iMovie, too much like a pro app ? I wish.

Having used iMovie06, FCE and FCP I always thought that the feature coverage and upgrade path was disconnected and that not enough attention was paid to real beginners.

iMovie 08 addresses that by repositioning, now I think we can expect a similar repositioning of both FCE and FCP. Maybe a price reduction of FCE and the continuation of more professional options arriving in FCP.

As for all the naysayers, if you don't like it for the very low cost it is, then write your own. In the past when people have sincerely believed that a manufacturer is not doing it right they do it themselves. If such people are correct then their products as alternatives are successful. Many a major corporation was begun in response to user disatisfaction.

On the other hand, if you don't like it then don't use it. No-one says you have to upgrade. Just because BMW brings out a later version of the car you drive does not mean you have to rush off and get it, in fact anyone who does without a clear need to do so is a fool and like all such is soon parted from their readies.

It really annoys me the way so many people feel that just because software is so intangible the users should be entitled to free or almost free upgrades for life. As if the fact it is not some piece of conventionally manufactured goods like a TV set somehow makes it easier. I have developed over 21 applications of the years and I can assure you that the maintenance and upgrade experience has real pain in it. No way I'll give it away and if you expect something for nothing you can naff off.

Get a life people. More than 50% of purchasers in an Apple store are new to the platform. iMovie08 is an easier introduction to movie editing than iMovie06 then when more capabilities become important an upgrade path to FCE or its replacement makes more sense. In the mean time if existing users prefer using iMovie06 that is okay, just keep using it.