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Damn Skippy!

iPhone Bitch!!!!

Leopard + Multi-touch = BOOM!

Here is T-Mobile's "iPhone-Killer".. with WinDoze Mobile ...

and in other news, Microsoft announced today that it has the patent on 'Brown' and 'Squirt'.

About time they started to get the whole 'rip off whatever apple is making now' syndrome under control. To much apple coping... to much...

Some companies seem to think if they create a phone that looks like the iPhone it'll be perceived to be "just as good" but I believe too many people are well aware of the capabilities of this new device and their attempt will seem like cheap knock-offs. I truly belive the iPhone will slay the mobile market, maybe not immediately, but in a fairly short amount of time and in turn bring more people to the Mac.

NOOGIES!!!

Damn, now Apple left Microsoft with only the shape of the phone to copy for their super-secret and totally innovative Zune Phone. Not that Microsoft was going to even get that perfect, but still. I can vividly imagine Motorola coming out with the "Slickr", in an attempt to copy what's left of the iPhone's patent filings. Nokia will try to copy the iPhone...but will end up coming 10 inches thicker.

Kudos to Apple for protecting their hard-work this time around.

Good thing Steve learned from the mistakes of the Pepsi CEO they hired that sold out all of Apples good to MS.

I blame that Pepsi CEO guy for letting MS copy the Mac OS.

Even if Nokia, Samsung or Motorola were allowed to copy the iPhone their versions would still suck. Palm too.

There's Apple, then there's everybody else.

BOOM!

Steve J. is THE MAN!

Steve B. is THE MONKEY!

I DNRTFA, but at least from the portion cited here, lots of the patents listed aren't really patentable.

"the idea to use full screen of the device for User Interface" is not a method and is not new.

"finger gestures" are unlikely to hold up.

"soft on screen controls" have existed for years in the form of contextual mouse menus.

"multifunctionality" come on..

"ambient light sensors" can be found in the nightlights in my home.

New methods for doing some of these things would be patentable, but in this list, there's very little that couldn't be copied using ideas that Apple has not and could not patent.

iPitty the fool who violates iPhone iPatent, it's Apple's iProperty!

@PC Apologist

Typical PC apologist behavior. Shows up at a Mac forum making lengthy uninformed comments.

If, like me, you've been watching the SteveNotes over the years, then it should have also caught your ear when Steve said the word "patent" - and boy did he emphasize it.

Don't know details, of course, any more than the next guy, but appears the iPhone patent power is not in the Hardware, or the Software, but in the combo of the two.

And THAT, as WE all know, is the key to why/how the iPhone (well, really a "computer in your pocket") is about to make History.

Thank You
BC Kelly
Tallahassee Fla

Hardly any of Apple's patent claims will hold up because almost all of them except multi-touch have been seen in phones before, and other people invented multi-touch long before the iPhone ever saw the light of day.

Applying for a patent is one thing, getting it issued is another, with recent Supreme Court decisions, successfully defending a patent which is just an obvious extension of previous work became a lot harder.

"computer in your pocket"

Yes, Apple has indeed re-invented the PDA.

Rapid rebuttle unit sends this message to Pc Apologist.

Who invented the mouse?

Who invented Contextual menus?

Who invented Contextual menu short cuts via a keyboard? (When the likes of you were mired in DOS)

As for fingure gestures, I agree with you in that the Romans were the first in the use of fingure gestures. Fingure gestures as you imply do not apply to the iphone as you have to make contact with the active surface, I highly doubt any amount of gesturing in the Roman method will cause any sort of activation.

Do you know what an accelerator in an iphone does?

Do you know what the ambient light sensors control apart from screen brightness?

Do your homework before blathering like a blithering idiot on this site!

"Who invented the mouse?"

Douglas Engelbart, in 1964, 20 years before the Mac was launched.

"Who invented Contextual menus?"

Xerox, 10 years before the Mac shipped.

Who invented Contextual menu short cuts via a keyboard? (When the likes of you were mired in DOS)

Keys that quickly do a command? Late 60's or early 70's I beleive. Tied in to a GUI? about 1972.

"As for fingure gestures, I agree with you in that the Romans were the first in the use of fingure gestures. Fingure gestures as you imply do not apply to the iphone as you have to make contact with the active surface, I highly doubt any amount of gesturing in the Roman method will cause any sort of activation."

Gestures: Apple, Palm, Go, Microsoft in their pen based OS's. Multitouch, in 1982 at the University of Toronto and Bell Labs.

"Do you know what an accelerator in an iphone does?"
That would be an accelerometer, it's like what you have in a camera to determine whether picture is taken in portrait or landscape mode, or in the case of a phone/PDA, switch the screen. It can also be used like a Wii or Playstation controller to detect movement and react accordingly. Nothing new here.

"Do you know what the ambient light sensors control apart from screen brightness?"

No, but the concept of an ambient light sensor which allows a device to react in whatever way it sees fit to changes in ambient light is hardly new.

"Do your homework before blathering like a blithering idiot on this site!"

That's some good advice.

Crabapple
"Who invented the mouse?"

I know who invented the mouse. Why don't you tell us all who you think did?

Do your homework before blathering like a blithering idiot on this site!

Maybe you ought to do YOUR homework before stating things you have no knowledge of....

Who invented the mouse?"

Douglas Engelbart, in 1964, 20 years before the Mac was launched.

Hmm.. funny how no one heard of a mouse until the Mac shipped. Name some products I could buy that were controlled with a mouse prior to the Mac, and what could I do with them? Who sold them?


"Who invented Contextual menus?"

Xerox, 10 years before the Mac shipped.

Again, see above. What products could I go out and buy that Xerox shipped to consumers that used this fabulous technology. Ideas that are never put to use are like fancy suits sitting in a closet gathering dust and being eaten by moths. They look great but aren't helping anyone.


Who invented Contextual menu short cuts via a keyboard? (When the likes of you were mired in DOS)

Keys that quickly do a command? Late 60's or early 70's I beleive. Tied in to a GUI? about 1972.

Which GUI in 1972, is this something I could have bought in 1972? Who sold it? What did it do? In fact, what personal computers were available in 1972 that anyone without a swiss bank account and government funding could afford?


"As for fingure gestures, I agree with you in that the Romans were the first in the use of fingure gestures. Fingure gestures as you imply do not apply to the iphone as you have to make contact with the active surface, I highly doubt any amount of gesturing in the Roman method will cause any sort of activation."

Gestures: Apple, Palm, Go, Microsoft in their pen based OS's. Multitouch, in 1982 at the University of Toronto and Bell Labs.

Palm had gestures using a stylus, as did Newton I believe (I know they had some form of hand writing recognition). Which of these listed items are based on finger gestures (ie. not stylus). There's a world of difference. As far as Bell Labs and "Multitouch" I don't know how closely it compares with what the iPhone can do, so I can't comment on that, but I'm sure much will be written about it.


"Do you know what an accelerator in an iphone does?"
That would be an accelerometer, it's like what you have in a camera to determine whether picture is taken in portrait or landscape mode, or in the case of a phone/PDA, switch the screen. It can also be used like a Wii or Playstation controller to detect movement and react accordingly. Nothing new here.

Nothing new here, so name the phone or PDA that automatically switches from horizontal to vertical as you turn it.

I agree that the Wii controller is awesome and truly revolutionary use of a concept which has been around for years but never implemented in that way in a consumer device.

However it's use of an accelerometer is obviously different than the iPhone, and I would guess the patent on the iPhone relates to how it is used rather than the existence of the accelerometer itself.

"Do you know what the ambient light sensors control apart from screen brightness?"

No, but the concept of an ambient light sensor which allows a device to react in whatever way it sees fit to changes in ambient light is hardly new.

Wrong again, it's not the sensor, but HOW it is used. Apparently this very simple concept is totally lost on you. It's not hard, try to focus here. There's a difference between underlying theoretical technology and practical use of that technology.

Apple doesn't come up with every piece of technology they use in every product from scratch, I don't think anyone argues that they do. But again, there's theory and then there's application. Apple has a unique ability to take an existing idea and make it practical and useful, know when to use X and not Y, and when they need to use Z.

The genius behind the Apple brand is knowing how to get things to fit together so they all work together in a way that no one else has thought of before, a level of refinement in user interface design that no one else can match.

It's already been said before in this thread but I'll repeat it here. The patents on the iPhone are likely related to how Apple has chosen to apply existing technology to the iPhone. If the way the apply existing ideas and technology is innovative and unique enough, then they will be able to defend any challenges to their patents, successfully. I suspect Apple, a nearly 100 billion dollar company did some homework on this before they released what they expect to be their flagship product.


"Do your homework before blathering like a blithering idiot on this site!"

That's some good advice.

Yep.

@ PC Apologist, BlitheringIdiot & Shoeman.

The following articles are copied here for you to read & reflect upon. This is me taking up my own advice (what a pleasure!)

@ THANKS!:-)

The following articles are available from WIKIPEDIA here is the link, bookmark it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

Early mice
Douglas Engelbart of the Stanford Research Institute invented the mouse in 1964[2][3] after extensive usability testing. Several other experimental pointing-devices developed for Engelbart's oN-Line System (NLS) exploited different body movements — for example, head-mounted devices attached to the chin or nose — but ultimately the mouse won out because of its simplicity and convenience. The first mouse, a bulky device (pictured) used two gear-wheels perpendicular to each other: the rotation of each wheel translated into motion along one axis. Engelbart received patent US3541541 on November 17, 1970 for an "X-Y Position Indicator for a Display System".[4] At the time, Engelbart envisaged that users would hold the mouse continuously in one hand and type on a five-key chord keyset with the other.[5]


[edit] Mechanical mice

Early mouse patents. From left to right: Opposing track wheels by Engelbart, Nov. 1970, U.S. Patent 3,541,541 . Ball and wheel by Rider, Sept. 1974, U.S. Patent 3,835,464 . Ball and two rollers with spring by Opocensky, Oct. 1976, U.S. Patent 3,987,685 .
A Smaky mouse, as invented at the EPFL by Jean-Daniel Nicoud and André Guignard.Bill English, builder of the original mouse, invented the so-called ball mouse in 1972 while working for Xerox PARC.[6] The ball-mouse replaced the external wheels with a single ball that could rotate in any direction. It came as part of the hardware package of the Xerox Alto computer.

Modern computer mice took form at the École polytechnique fédérale de Lausanne (EPFL) under the inspiration of Professor Jean-Daniel Nicoud and at the hands of engineer and watchmaker André Guignard.[7] This new design incorporated a single hard rubber mouseball and three buttons, and remained a common design until the mainstream adoption of the scroll-wheel mouse during the 1990s.[8]

Honeywell produced another type of mechanical mouse.[9] Instead of a ball, it had two plastic "feet" on the bottom which sensed movement. Keytronic later produced a similar product.[10]

"Who invented the mouse?
Who invented Contextual menus?
Who invented Contextual menu short cuts via a keyboard? (When the likes of you were mired in DOS)"

"funny how no one heard of a mouse until the Mac shipped."

Clearly we have a different definition for the word INVENTED. I do not think it means what you think it means.

If the question was "Who was the first mass market seller of Mice to desktop PC buyers" then the answer might have been different.

"name the phone or PDA that automatically switches from horizontal to vertical as you turn it."

in terms of devices which do this, KTF's EV-KD370, Thinkpad X60, Toshiba Portege tablets, any number of cameras, the list could just keep going on. lots more auto rotate based on opening the phone, sliding out keyboards etc.

"Wrong again, it's not the sensor, but HOW it is used"

And just how is it used? I mean other than the obvious, to control screen brightness based on ambient light?

" I suspect Apple, a nearly 100 billion dollar company did some homework on this before they released what they expect to be their flagship product."

So many patents are just the result of a company trying to draft as broad patents as possible, hoping that they will be granted, then the onus shifts to the other guys to show obviousness, prior art etc.

"The genius behind the Apple brand is knowing how to get things to fit together so they all work together in a way that no one else has thought of before, a level of refinement in user interface design that no one else can match."

But just because you re-use other people's ideas in a slightly different context doesn't make them PATENTABLE. And that's what the discussion is about here not whether the iPhone will be a good phone but how PATENTABLE the ideas it contains are. You seem to be taking comments on the patentability of the iPhone interface as an attack on the iPhone.

The term context menu (or shortcut menu) is commonly used for menus which pop up when clicking an item in a graphical user interface, offering a list of options which vary depending on the context of the action, the application running, and the item selected. These menus are typically invoked with a secondary mouse button (usually the right-hand button) on a computer running an operating system such as Microsoft Windows, Mac OS X or Unix running the X Window System. Computers with a single-button mouse may use a keyboard-click combination, as with a Control-click in the Macintosh OS. PC keyboards with Microsoft Windows keys also have an additional menu key that opens context menus in MS Windows applications.

Context menus first appeared in the Smalltalk environment on the Xerox Alto computer, where they were called pop-up menus. The NEXTSTEP operating system further developed the idea, incorporating a feature whereby the right or middle mouse button brought the main menu (which was vertical and automatically changed depending on context) to the location of the mouse, thereby eliminating the need to move the mouse pointer all the way across the large (for the time) NextStep screen.

The first successful commercial GUI product was the Apple Macintosh, which was heavily inspired by PARC's work; Xerox was given Apple stock in exchange for engineer visits and an understanding that Apple would create a GUI product. Much later, in the midst of the Apple v. Microsoft lawsuit in which Apple accused Microsoft of violating its copyright by appropriating the use of the "look and feel" of the Macintosh GUI, Xerox also sued Apple on the same grounds[citation needed]. The lawsuit was dismissed because Xerox had waited too long to file suit, and the statute of limitations had expired. However, some dispute the degree to which the Apple interface was derived from Xerox designs[1]. Indeed, prior to Apple's visits to PARC, its Macintosh project more closely resembled the Valdocs operating system of the Epson QX-10.

@ BlatheringIdiot.

I hope by the end of these articles, you will understand the background by which all these patents have been applied and successfully achieved.

A gesture is a form of non-verbal communication made with a part of the body, used instead of or in combination with verbal communication. The language of gesture is rich in ways for individuals to express a variety of feelings and thoughts, from contempt and hostility to approval and affection. Most people use gestures and body language in addition to words when they speak; some ethnic groups and languages use them more than others do, and the amount of such gesturing that is considered culturally acceptable varies from one location to the next.

Hand gestures, i.e., gestures performed by one or two hands, is the most numerous category of gestures due to the ability of the human hand to acquire a huge number of clearly discernible configurations, the fact of importance for the sign languages. The latter ones are not discussed in this article.

In computing, a mouse gesture is a way of combining computer mouse movements and clicks which the software recognizes as a specific command. Mouse gestures can provide quick access to common functions of a program. They can also be useful for people who have difficulties typing on a keyboard. For example, in a web browser, the user could navigate to the previously viewed page by pressing the right mouse button, moving the mouse briefly to the left, then releasing the button.

The first mouse gesture, the "drag," was introduced by Apple to replace a dedicated "move" button on mice shipped with its Macintosh and Lisa computers.

The iPhone is a multimedia and Internet-enabled mobile phone announced by Apple CEO Steve Jobs during the keynote address at the Macworld Conference & Expo on 9 January 2007.[1][2]

The iPhone's functions include those of a camera phone, a multimedia player, mobile phone, and Internet services like e-mail, text messaging, web browsing and wireless connectivity. iPhone input is accomplished via touchscreen with virtual keyboard and buttons. The iPhone is a quad-band GSM phone, though Jobs mentioned in his keynote that Apple has a "plan to make 3G phones" in the future.[3] Apple has filed more than 200 patents related to the technology behind the iPhone

The genesis of the iPhone was Jobs' direction that Apple engineers investigate touch-screens. At the time he had been considering having Apple work on tablet PCs.[6][7][8] Many have noted the device's similarities to Apple's previous touch-screen portable device, the Newton MessagePad.[9][10][11][12] Like the Newton, the iPhone is nearly all screen, and its form-factor is credited to Apple's head of design, Jonathan Ive.[6][13] Comments made by Jobs in April 2003 at the "D: All Things Digital" executive conference expressed his belief that tablet PCs and traditional PDAs were not good choices as high-demand markets for Apple to enter, despite many requests made to him that Apple create another PDA. He did believe that cell phones were going to become important devices for portable information access, and that what cell phones needed to have was excellent synchronization software. At the time, instead of focusing on a follow-up to their Newton PDA, Jobs had Apple put its energies into the iPod, and the iTunes software (which can be used to synchronize content with iPod devices), released January 2001.[14][15][16][17] On September 7, 2005, Apple and Motorola released the ROKR E1, the first mobile phone to use iTunes. However Jobs was unhappy with the ROKR, feeling that having to compromise with a non-Apple designer (Motorola) prevented Apple from designing the phone he wanted to make.[18] In September 2006, Apple discontinued support for the ROKR and released a version of iTunes that included references to an as-yet unknown mobile phone that could display pictures and video.[19] On January 9, 2007, Jobs announced the iPhone at the Macworld convention, receiving substantial media attention

An accelerometer is a device for measuring acceleration. An accelerometer inherently measures its own motion (locomotion), in contrast to a device based on remote sensing.

One application for accelerometers is to measure gravity, wherein an accelerometer is specifically configured for use in gravimetry. Such a device is called a gravimeter. Accelerometers are being incorporated into more and more personal electronic devices such as mobile phones, media players and handheld gaming devices. In particular, more and more smartphones are incorporating accelerometers for step counters, user interface control, and switching between portrait and landscape modes.

Accelerometers are used along with gyroscopes in inertial guidance systems, as well as in many other scientific and engineering systems. One of the most common uses for micro electro-mechanical system (MEMS) accelerometers is in airbag deployment systems for modern automobiles. In this case the accelerometers are used to detect the rapid negative acceleration of the vehicle to determine when a collision has occurred and the severity of the collision.

An accelerometer is an instrument for measuring acceleration, detecting and measuring vibrations, or for measuring acceleration due to gravity (inclination). Accelerometers can be used to measure vibration on cars, machines, buildings, process control systems and safety installations. They can also be used to measure seismic activity, inclination, machine vibration, dynamic distance and speed with or without the influence of gravity.

Accelerometers are perhaps the simplest MEMS device possible, sometimes consisting of little more than a suspended cantilever beam or proof mass (also known as seismic mass) with some type of deflection sensing and circuitry. MEMS Accelerometers are available in a wide variety of ranges up to thousands of gn's. Single axis, dual axis, and three axis models are available.

The widespread use of accelerometers in the automotive industry has pushed their cost down dramatically.

It's one thing to apply for a patent. Most have not issued yet, nor will do for years.

the second hurdle is to successfully defend a patent where the idea is an obvious extension of existing ideas or there is prior art which directly matches the idea.

Learn something about the patent process before ignorantly spouting off.

"I hope by the end of these articles, you will understand the background by which all these patents have been applied and successfully achieved."

Huh? You're posting articles showing that the technology and it's applications has been known and understood for a long time and you think that supports your case that it's patentable? Inconceivable.

Ambient light)
Jump to: navigation, search

A Black and White low-key portrait.
Low-key photo of a catLow-key lighting is a style of lighting for film or television. It attempts to create a chiaroscuro effect. In traditional lighting design for black and white photography, also called three-point lighting, there are a key light, a fill light, and a back light.

Low key light shows the contours of an object by throwing areas into light or shadow while the fill light provides partial illumination in the shadow areas to prevent a distracting contrast between bright and dark. For dramatic effects, one may wish the contrast to be high — to emphasize the brightness of the sun in a desert scene, to make a face look rugged, seamed, and old, or to isolate details in a mass of surrounding shadow. A variety of methods can be used to create these effects.

Ambient lighting refers to the overall illumination of an environment without the addition of lighting for photography. This includes practical lamps, overhead fluorescent, sunlight or any previously existing light.

"Ambient lighting refers to the overall illumination of an environment without the addition of lighting for photography. "

Wow, Apple's invented a new type of ambient light sensor which can tell the difference between light that was already there in the environment, and light which has been added for photography?

Bravo. that's quite a feat, and a big jump over existing ambient light sensors in electronics which can't tell the source of light and just measure what light falls on the sensor regardless of source.

Now tell me how that's useful to distinguish between all those types of lighting when a device is trying to decide how bright to make it's screen to compensate for how bright the environment is.

Not only is it patentable but it obviously already is!.

Keep reading because you are right, alot of the technologies were developed way back when, the developers patented what they did and those who didn't, didn't.

What I am leading up to is the legend that has led upto the ownership of various patents.

I wrote in a previous article that quite often, the creator of a patent does not always now how best to utilise the patent, or are unable to bring the patent to market. That is where licencing comes into its own. the licencee protects the patent and the ways in which the patent can be applied to the benefit of the inventor and the licencee.

One more last article (I hope!)

"One more last article (I hope!)"

Hopefully not, but I suspect you're going to post anyway.

Virtually all of the significant touchscreen technology patents were filed during the 1970s and 1980's and have expired. Touchscreen component manufacturing and product design are no longer encumbered by royalties or legalities with regard to patents and the manufacturing of touchscreen-enabled displays on all kinds of devices is widespread.

The development of multipoint touchscreens facilitated the tracking of more than one finger on the screen. Operations that are only possible with more than one finger are possible. These devices also allow multiple users to interact with the touchscreen simultaneously.

Multi-touch is the name of a human-computer interaction technique and the hardware devices that implement it. It is a kind of touch screen or touch tablet / touchpad that recognizes multiple simultaneous touch points, frequently including the pressure or degree of each independently, as well as position. This allows gestures and interaction with multiple fingers or hands, chording, and can provide rich interaction, including direct manipulation, through intuitive gestures. Depending largely on their size, some multi-touch devices support more than one user on the same device simultaneously. One salient aspect of this technique is that it makes easy to zoom in or out in a Zooming User Interface with two fingers, for example, thereby providing a more direct mapping than with a single-point device like a mouse[1] or stylus.[2]

FingerWorks produced a line of keyboards that incorporated multi-touch gestures. FingerWorks has since been purchased by Apple, which has incorporated the technology into its iPhone product.[3] French company JazzMutant produces Lemur and Dexter, two musical multitouch devices. The firm Tactex Controls[4] is one supplier of multi-touch pads.

Multi-touch has at least a 25 year history[5], beginning in 1982, with pioneering work being done at the University of Toronto (multi-touch tablets) and Bell Labs (multi-touch screens).

And finally one more thing....

The display responds to three sensors: a proximity sensor that shuts off the display and touchscreen when the iPhone is brought near your face to save battery power and to prevent spurious inputs from the user's face and ears.

In neutral geometry, the minimum distance between two points is the length of the line segment between them.

In algebraic geometry, one can find the distance between two points of the xy-plane using the distance formula.

Various distance definitions are possible between objects.

Distance cannot be negative. Distance is a scalar quantity, containing only a magnitude, whereas displacement is an equivalent vector quantity containing both magnitude and direction.

The proximity sensor is similar to a maths processor in that it works out geometric distances in combination with algebraic formulea to determine when to switch off the touch screen in raltion to phone calls in order to conserve battery life and accidental activation of a routine via contact of the interface touching an individuals cheek. I have not done justice to the P sensor because to do so would mean quoting mathmatical formulea that require one to be in the right frame of mind, even then it would make for very difficult reading.

Like I said at the begginning, this articles are available on WIKIPEDIA for all to look up and decide what is what for themselves.

Does this come as a relief to you?

That was the last post on that topic.

If you are still of the view that they cannot patent as many patents as they have, why don't you check up how many of these patents have actually been granted. either to Apple or to a company that Apple has bought or collaborated with.

ps. It is probably a good thing that Steve Jobs left Apple when he did, the internet might have been delayed by more than two years if he had not!

"don't you check up how many of these patents have actually been granted. either to Apple or to a company that Apple has bought or collaborated with."

You like posting lots of irrelevant junk. You know you can post links to the Wikipedia rather than copy in large sections of it.

Why don't you produce the list of iPhone relevant patents actually granted and their claims.

"the internet might have been delayed by more than two years "

The Internet existed long before Steve Jobs left Apple. But you're not particularly technology savvy so wouldn't understand the difference between the "Internet" and the "World Wide Web".

But if you're suggesting that Next was a catalyst for the WWW, that's hardly credible. Berners-Lee would have just used another brand of Unix workstation for his WWW work if there were no Next machines.

@ BlatheringIdiot:

1. (about ambient light sensor) And just how is it used? I mean other than the obvious, to control screen brightness based on ambient light?

So many patents are just the result of a company trying to draft as broad patents as possible, hoping that they will be granted, then the onus shifts to the other guys to show obviousness, prior art etc.

Fair enough, I'll grant you it's possible a number of the patents they applied for when developing the iPhone won't hold up. However, I'd be surprised if you're right in that the bulk of them do not hold water, since they made such a big point of noting how many patents there were.

If it was all bluster, and their patents all melted in court it would do tremendous harm to their stock, and if you follow Apple you'll note they tend to be very conservative with their earnings estimates and in general do not try to over inflate the value of their stock. Dramatically overstating their patent position for a headline knowing they would not later hold up under scrutiny would seriously undermine their credibility and be very out of character for the company.

Not saying you can't be right, but for you to be right, Apple has to be acting very different than normal.


2. But just because you re-use other people's ideas in a slightly different context doesn't make them PATENTABLE. And that's what the discussion is about here not whether the iPhone will be a good phone but how PATENTABLE the ideas it contains are. You seem to be taking comments on the patentability of the iPhone interface as an attack on the iPhone.

What Apple does is make whole systems using various parts. They indeed do not always come up with every idea used in their designs from scratch. Rather their strength lies in integration of a whole.

As Carl Sagan once said: "If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe."

In a sense all ideas are built on what came before them. What makes certain ideas unique is how creatively they take previous ideas into new directions. Saying that there are portions of Apple's ideas that existed before they applied for their 200 patents I think misses the point of exactly what is unique about what Apple does.

You could argue that the iPod took existing MP3 players and "re-use other people's ideas in a slightly different context". You could also say that the iPod took broken players and fixed them and transformed the digital music player market and then the whole music industry. Both statements are technically right, but one I think misses the point entirely.

In short I think you're staring at trees, BlatheringIdiot, and not noticing there is a whole forest around you.

You may be right that many of the patents won't hold up, but I suspect that many (most) will, time will prove one of us right.

As far as me mistaking comments about iPhone being patentable vs an attack on the iPhone, I take that to heart. I won't assume you're attacking it, but I still think you're likely to be wrong about how well their 200 patents will hold up.

PS. Blatheringidiot, could you please try to find a less unfortunate name? I'm trying to have a serious discussion here.. lol

BlatheringIdiot: Why don't you produce the list of iPhone relevant patents actually granted and their claims.

I think it's too early for any of us to speculate about the full depth and scope of the patent portfolio. I think it might be at least months and possibly years before we know all of it. Certainly we can comment on some of what has been revealed so far, but I don't think we have the full 200 yet. I'm not a patent expert so I'm not sure how long this all takes, but from my previous experience it has seemed a slow process, slower than watching paint dry.


The Internet existed long before Steve Jobs left Apple. But you're not particularly technology savvy so wouldn't understand the difference between the "Internet" and the "World Wide Web".

The network existed, but I think a vast portion of the value of "the internet" is the way in which people are able to interact with it. And that basically means html style web pages that can deliver standardized formatted visual content.


But if you're suggesting that Next was a catalyst for the WWW, that's hardly credible. Berners-Lee would have just used another brand of Unix workstation for his WWW work if there were no Next machines.

Are you suggesting that the NeXT box used was just a convenient piece of hardware that played no role in the development process? That he could just as easily have done the same thing using an Amiga? Could you back this up a little bit more?

@ BlatheringIdiot. True, Sir Tim Berners-Lee said that if NEXT computers and NEXTStep OS did not exist, it would have taken longer to write the first web browser called the WorldWideWeb, (as you wrongly point out. & at this point I confess that I am nit-picking) which was later renamed Nexus to avoid confusion between World Wide Web.

What he accomplished in two months on NEXT he admits would have taken him more like a year on an alternative platform. Work the maths out! This was because a lot of the work had already been done for him. Who do you think did all that work?

There is a link right at the beginning of my postings, but like I suspected, you are so keen on denigrating anything that does not fit in with your World view that you intentionally miss vital information.

So for my benefit and for any one else reading these posting, ie. to preserve sanity. I will not be addressing this issue anymore, however right or wrong I am.

Are you a Microsoft minion?

"I think it's too early for any of us to speculate about the full depth and scope of the patent portfolio."

They've had 2 years to be filing. Just list what's already filed will be fine.

""the internet" is the way in which people are able to interact with it. "

Sure, and your car is really just a steering wheel, a stick and some pedals.

Also I guess you don't send much email? Block all but outbound connections to port 80 on your router, see how much smaller youre "Internet" becomes.

"That he could just as easily have done the same thing using an Amiga? "

I would suggest that he could have done the same thing with an HP workstation, or a Sun or SGI, or machines from any number of companies now merged or gone.

Remember we're talking the very late 80's, early 90's here. the Internet had existed for decades, Unix was well established as the workstation operating system of choice, X11 existed, as did a number of GUI toolkits and visual IDEs. I used those platforms extensively.

A HTTP server of minimal functionality can be built in about 2 pages of code, and done in a weekend, so either Berners Lee was a chump, or that bit didn't really take too long.

As for the rest of the browser, I can't see the big time savings that Next would have generated vs any other Unix workstation.

"Are you a Microsoft minion?"

Did the word Microsoft appear in any of the posts (except once I think in passing with the prior art), we're discussing the patentability of the iPhone, not Microsoft. So your logic goes you have to be either For Apple or For Microsoft? You can't respond to some dumbass posting by some dumb, thinking limited Apple fanboy without being "A Microsoft Minion". Show me the chain of logic that leads you there. On second thoughts, I don't really want to know how your brain works, just get help.

"however right or wrong I am."

So you finally realised you're wrong, and decided to stop digging a bigger hole?

I couldn't resist commenting on some things you said.

(Also I guess you don't send much email? Block all but outbound connections to port 80 on your router, see how much smaller youre "Internet" becomes.)

Can the Internet become smaller? Or perhaps you meant that my access to it would become smaller.

(A HTTP server of minimal functionality can be built in about 2 pages of code, and done in a weekend, so either Berners Lee was a chump, or that bit didn't really take too long.)

When Sir Tim Berners-Lee set out to create the World Wide Web, the Internet existed and was in use mainly by the educational establishment, their system was called JANET. And of course the USA military. What Sir Tim Berners-Lee wrote was the interface we now know and are familiar with.

If you are familiar with ASSEMBLY, COBOL, FORTRAN, PASCAL, DOS, DBASE, C, C++ as you suggest you do, you would know that at that time you had to be fluent in code writing to get a computer to display what you wanted it to.

HTTP Hyper Text Transfer Protocol was created by Netscape.
Question; What came first, World Wide Web or Netscape?

If Netscape came second, your statement above is invalid, on the other hand if Netscape came first then Sir Tim Berners-Lee did not create the World Wide Web, as Netscape would have done it in order to create HTTP!

As for the patentability of the iphone, like I said they have already done it, they have been granted alot of the patents they have applied for, those applications have been looked at and examined particularly by the stock market who would be reluctant to invest in a product that would come back to bite them via costly law suits. Of the patents that are pending, no one else can use them or copy them until the patent authorities are satisfied with the application or not as the case maybe.

You may not like the fact that some of the keycomponents in the iphone are already in use in a variety of machines but as per article above, of those who's patents have expired, the patent may apply to the unique way in which Apple inc. has applied them to the iphone.

Get real! Most of the patents are done and dusted, the iphone is a reality waiting to explode on the market. Leopard has been patented just all the other OS's since Mr. Jobs came back to Apple inc. The iphone has a leopard inside it, is that not grounds enough for a killer patent on its own?

How many smart erm...not so smart phones have a full blown OS drving them? How many of them are being updated via software upgrades? Who has let the cat out of the bag that mobile phone providers have been short changing their subscribers by limiting the scope of the handsets capabilities?

Who? who? who? who? as in "Who let the Dogs out"

Much of your post seems to be changing your position and restating things I already said. OK.

"HTTP Hyper Text Transfer Protocol was created by Netscape."

Wrong you freaking moron. That's what Berners Lee invented. Clearly you don't even understand what he did, yet are an apparent "expert"

Now that you have absolutely no shred of credibility left, best that you do finally stop posting.

"reluctant to invest in a product that would come back to bite them via costly law suits"

How many Wall Street types to you think were aware of Creative's patents on mp3 players yet invested in Apple anyway?

Well you can answer this only two ways for each entity who invested in Apple, either they knew, yet invested anyway, or didn't know yet invested anyway.

All that will come out of either possibility is that patents or lack of patents didn't factor into their decision. Nor will they be a factor with the iPhone.

The only time it really matters is when you have a small startup company, you want to know their IP is protected. With a company like Apple. It's nice if they can patent as much as possible, but you put more faith in their ability to simply keep out-competing the competition.

"they have been granted a lot of the patents they have applied for"

Just give me the list of the patents with the claims. That would include each patent number, whether it is pending or granted, and a one sentence summary in your own words of what it covers. Thanks.

"no one else can use them or copy them until the patent authorities are satisfied "

What planet do you live on? Anyone can do whatever they want until the patent is granted, and even after it is granted. After it is granted Apple has a mechanism to enforce it's rights. It can only do so by suing people they think are infringing on their patents and showing that to be so. Before the patent is granted, they've got nothing they can use.

Lots of companies will happily infringe figuring worst case they will pay out if they are sued and loose or best case the patents will never be granted or will be overturned when the company is sued.

"You may not like the fact that some of the keycomponents in the iphone are already in use in a variety of machines but as per article above"

I don't like or dislike that. Further my contention has nothing to do about how good or bad a phone the iPhone will be. I am just pointing out that you can't PATENT such things successfully.

"How many smart erm...not so smart phones have a full blown OS drving them?"

Any Linux, Windows CE or Symbian phone. But you'll need to be more specific as to what you call a "Full Blown" OS.

"How many of them are being updated via software upgrades?"

All of them, are you really that ignorant?

"Who has let the cat out of the bag that mobile phone providers have been short changing their subscribers by limiting the scope of the handsets capabilities?"

Apple actually intends to lock down the phones so only certain apps will run. That already makes the iPhone less flexible than other smartphones which can download arbitrary applications.

P.S would you really try to write a web browser in assembler, DBASE, Fortran or COBOL? Do you know these languages, or are they just words you read somewhere?

FROM CHUMP to INVENTOR!

You have answered your last question so find out about the NEXT BOX & NEXTSTEP OS in relation to the WWW.

Apple has confirmed an optimized, full version of the Mac OS X operating system (without unnecessary components) will run on the iPhone, although differences between the operating system (OS X) running on Macs and the iPhone have not been officially explained.

It is expected to take up considerably less than 500 mb. It will be capable of supporting as-yet undetermined bundled and future 1st and 3rd-party applications, which are currently limited to a "controlled environment".

Apple intends to offer a smooth method for updating the iPhone's operating system, in a similar fashion to the way that Mac OS X and iPods are updated, and touts this as an advantage compared to other cell phones.

Windows CE (sometimes abbreviated WinCE) is a variation of Microsoft's Windows operating system for minimalistic computers and embedded systems.

Microsoft has stated that the "CE" is not an intentional initialism, but many people believe CE stands for "Consumer Electronics" or "Compact Edition"; users often disparagingly called it "Wince." Microsoft says it implies a number of Windows CE design precepts, including "Compact, Connectable, Compatible, Companion, and Efficient."
The first version, known during development under the codename "Pegasus", featured a Windows-like GUI and a number of Microsoft's popular applications, all trimmed down for smaller storage, memory, and speed of the palmtops of the day.

Predominantly known for its use in servers, Linux has gained the support of corporations such as IBM, Sun Microsystems, Hewlett-Packard, and Novell, and is used as an operating system for a wider variety of computer hardware than any other operating system, including desktop computers, supercomputers, and embedded devices such as cellphones.

Symbian OS is a proprietary operating system, designed for mobile devices, with associated libraries, user interface frameworks and reference implementations of common tools, produced by Symbian Ltd. It is a descendant of Psion's EPOC and runs exclusively on ARM processors.

Symbian is currently owned by Nokia (47.9%), Ericsson (15.6%), Sony Ericsson (13.1%), Panasonic (10.5%), Siemens AG (8.4%) and Samsung (4.5%). While BenQ has acquired the mobile phone subsidiary of Siemens AG the Siemens AG stake in Symbian does not automatically pass to BenQ - this will need the approval of the Symbian Supervisory Board.

FROM CHUMP TO INVENTOR continued:-

Since WorldWideWeb was developed on and for the NeXTSTEP platform, the program used many of NeXTSTEP's components—WorldWideWeb's layout engine was built around NeXTSTEP's Text class.

Features
WorldWideWeb was capable of displaying basic style sheets, downloading and opening any file type supported by the NeXT system (which included PostScript, movies, sounds, and so on), browsing newsgroups, and spellchecking. At first, images were displayed in separate windows, until NeXTSTEP's Text class supported Image objects. Editing pages remotely was not yet possible, as the HTTP PUT method had not yet been implemented. In fact, editing pages remotely would have been possible (and still is) with the GET method by instructing the receiving end (usually a CGI program module) to store the parameters it received. However, at that time this technique had not yet been invented.

https is a URI scheme used to indicate a secure HTTP connection. It is syntactically identical to the http:// scheme normally used for accessing resources using HTTP. Using an https: URL indicates that HTTP is to be used, but with a different default TCP port (443) and an additional encryption/authentication layer between the HTTP and TCP. This system was designed by Netscape Communications Corporation to provide authentication and encrypted communication and is widely used on the World Wide Web for security-sensitive communication such as payment transactions and corporate logons.

Creative Technology Limited (SGX: C76, NASDAQ: CREAF) is a listed manufacturer of computer multimedia products based in Singapore, where it was founded by Sim Wong Hoo on July 1, 1981. The company's U.S. subsidiary is known as Creative Labs, Inc., a name commonly but incorrectly used to refer to the entire company.

Creative began as a computer repair shop, where Sim developed an add-on memory board for the Apple II computer. Later, they started creating customized PCs adapted for the Chinese language.

In May 2006, Creative sued media player rival Apple Computer, alleging patent infringement. Apple quickly filed a countersuit, following the suit again in early June with a second countersuit.

On August 23, 2006, Apple and Creative settled all their patent lawsuits out of court; with Apple paying Creative $100 million to licence a software patent, and Creative signing up to Apple's Made For iPod program.

NOTE: No Apple, No Creative Technology Ltd! (Maybe, who knows?)

In the United States, the name Linux is a trademark registered to Linus Torvalds. Initially, nobody registered it, but on August 15, 1994, William R. Della Croce, Jr. filed for the trademark Linux, and then demanded royalties from Linux distributors. In 1996, Torvalds and some affected organizations sued to have the trademark assigned to Torvalds, and in 1997 the case was settled. The licensing of the trademark has since been handled by the Linux Mark Institute. Torvalds has stated that he only trademarked the name to prevent someone else from using it, but was bound in 2005 by United States trademark law to take active measures to enforce the trademark. As a result, the LMI sent out a number of letters to distribution vendors requesting that a fee be paid for the use of the name, and a number of companies have complied.

IT is all about software you FOOL! it is all about software. The way the software interacts with the hardware is what is under the lock & key of Patenting.

What ever hardware that cannot be patented, the way it interacts with the software can especailly if it has never been used in that way before.

As for the future, someone will no doubt try to claim an infringement, perhaps even you?

Pasting more Wikipedia?

Why don't you go learn something more than how to cut and paste?

"On August 23, 2006, Apple and Creative settled all their patent lawsuits out of court; with Apple paying Creative $100 million to licence a software patent, and Creative signing up to Apple's Made For iPod program."

My point exactly, Apple didn't care what patents Creative had. They infringed then brought their way out.

"The way the software interacts with the hardware is what is under the lock & key of Patenting."

Just give me the list of the patents with the claims. That would include each patent number, whether it is pending or granted, and a one sentence summary in your own words of what it covers. Thanks.