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Oct 20, 08 - 03:23 pm Comment from: TowerTone

Explains a lot....I hope.

Oct 20, 08 - 03:24 pm Comment from: ericdano

A band-aid approach this is. Apple clearly is moving away from Firewire as the industry is moving away from it. It would be more likely that Apple might develop some sort of TDM for USB2.

hey, listen do you hear that? no? its called silence. all the whiners of the world just shutup for a minute.

wait a few minutes, i am sure they will start again

If Apple won't let you use Blu-ray soon, what's gonna happen when pcs let you do it? Downloading is not the whole answer. If I buy some movies on DVD now,then at some point want to trade it with a friend, or trade it back in for money---I can. What are will you do if you download movies, and you want to trade/sell them in the future? Rip the disk drive out of your computer? Sony has a laptop with blu-ray playback for 1300. Next comes recordable Blu-ray----What will apple do about Blu-ray? Nothing? So I ask this: What comes after dv tape? What comes AFTER firewire? Who wants tape anymore?

Oct 20, 08 - 03:35 pm Comment from: TowerTone

"all the whiners of the world just shutup for a minute."

Oh, the irony!

Ethernet replaces Firewire.... um think about it some more...

I would rather have seen them leave out ethernet than firewire.

The REAL question is Apple going to make it possible for iMovie or FinalCut to access a video camera via USB. (Has this been answered anyone?) The USB cable that came with my video camera didn't work with my PC. I had to use the Firewire port.

I guess my video converter (VHS/DVD to iMovie) will be obsolete if Apple decides to can the Firewire all together.

it hasn't even been a week and the apple macbook world is in shambles, the country is divided on this issue and glossy screens. steve you're assh0le for making such a beautiful product with great upgrades, and getting rid a dying transfer source. DAMN YOU!! seriously it's only been a week give it sometime to hurt and really ask yourself, did you really need that firewire you addicts, yes apple is smart enough to move away from something 3rd parties are not going to offer sooner than later.

@ CW:

You really don't want Blu-Ray anywhere close to your Mac.
The reason is that in order to be true Blu-Ray compliant there are a host of DRM protocols that have to be present before Blu-Ray can fully work.

Believe me you don't want those protocols on your Mac, just to be able to use Blu-Ray.

The system will be a slave to the content providers.

My two cents.

Oct 20, 08 - 03:50 pm Comment from: jtc

Ok, so firewire through ethernet...good idea.... What if im connected to a network?? do I now need a hub? I guess I'd just use the wireless connection then assuming the network is wireless.

See, I would be totally, extremely happy with that. A perfect solution.

But I'm not holding my breath.

Oct 20, 08 - 04:06 pm Comment from: John

Huh, well this could explain some things, and could work, though it'll obviously require an ethernet-firewire adapter for anything to plug into it.

And to the folks who say we're whiners for complaining about a STANDARD being dropped by Apple--and not an old, antiquated standard like floppy disks, but an amazingly better technology than USB (no comparison between the two), you should consider how many thousands of dollars in firewire hardware we have invested to get a better sense of why we're upset. In my case, I did a quick tally and came up with over $10,000 in firewire-enabled hardware (hard drives, audio mixers, cameras)--that absolutely dwarfs the price of any computer, and is the reason I'm not pleased.

As I said in my online petition, I'd gladly pay a BTO fee (like say $50) to have them install firewire, but I'll never purchase another macbook until they put firewire (in some form) back on the machine.

Oct 20, 08 - 04:08 pm Comment from: ken1w

That would be an excellent development.

Oct 20, 08 - 04:10 pm Comment from: John

Just to add to my previous post, an analogy: dropping firewire is like Canon or Nikon suddenly saying, oh, hey, we're changing our lens connections on our camera bodies. You guys won't mind, since new lenses will all be made with our new (and poorer) connection standard.

For any photographer out there, this would be a nightmare, since the cost of lenses is far greater than the cost of the camera body itself.

Just for your consideration....

This might help those that use TDM, but it won't do a thing for FW camera users. There isn't a single video camera that has an ethernet port.

I suspect there are far more typical Mac users with FW cameras than there are users who use TDM.

The author is wrong. Firewire over Ethernet is possible now and adapters are available and shipping to enable you to use it.

Oct 20, 08 - 04:23 pm Comment from: TowerTone

Good analogy, John.

Oct 20, 08 - 04:24 pm Comment from: alansky

@Peruchito:

STFU, moron!

Oct 20, 08 - 04:25 pm Comment from: lurker

@John - you've got the problem just right. And the pain.

I'll believe the new adapter when I see it. They'd better move fast. I was going to pass my FW-equipped MacBook to my son, who needs a compact laptop with FW for his musical endeavors and buy a new MacBook (love the new construction and backlight technology) for myself, but with no FW it makes no sense. So he is going to buy a refurb MacBook with FW before midnight tonight. Come on Cupertino!

Steve, if you're listening, understand that while we all love how you endeavor to skate to where the puck is, you - no one - is perfect and sometimes where you think the puck is going isn't quite on target.

Or, in this case, you skated to where this particular puck was already. You scored the goal. There is no need to try to undo the play now. In fact, you're just kicking up a lot of ice shavings for nothing.

Firewire is not something that should be dropped from any Apple products. It should remain a focal point of the computers, and IMO should be brought back to the iPod line-up as well (an iPhone with FW would be any knowledgable person's wet dream). It always has been a clearly superior alternative to USB, if push came to shove, and at the very least has proven already that it can happily coexist with it. This relentless half march toward oblivion that your forcing the technology down is ... hate to say it Steve ... it's stupid.

The only thing that ever went wrong with FW was when the 800 spec went to a different plug. Had the 400 plug continued on, 800 adoption would have been much greater, just as USB 2 continued on from USB 1 without a hiccup. That FW800 was only a lukewarm seller is my guess as to why you think FW in all flavors can be left behind now, but that's like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Just making sure a silly choice like that is avoided in the future is the solution here.

Making your professional customers, as well as all the moms, pops, bubbies, and grandpas (with camcorders, etc ...) all throw up their arms in frustration at being shut out from the new stuff is NOT the solution.

Dropping any pretense of choosing the best technology for your hardware, going forward, is NOT the solution.

Deleting a single controller chip from the motherboard in order to save a milliwatt here, or shave a millimeter there, so that function is forced to follow form, is NOT the solution.

Keep the superior technology - one that you're company has already invested a fortune in, and made good money on - available to the public. If the sales figures aren't responding in a way you think they should as a result, just be patient. Not every hit is a homer, but every hit does have value in winning the game - a net positive. Firewire is one of those hits for you guys.

Support it. Keep it going. And enjoy the accolades that will eventually come afterwards.

Oct 20, 08 - 04:35 pm Comment from: The Great Microsoft Shiller Massacre

Watch as the whiners get left behind...

Oct 20, 08 - 04:36 pm Comment from: drmacnut

@msr (See, I would be totally, extremely happy with that. A perfect solution. But I'm not holding my breath.

The "Firewire over Ethernet" solution is FAR from perfect, as others have mentioned. And one other thing: What about power? Will Ethernet be able to supply enough power to run our external drives, as FW 400/800 does today?

Gosh, this whole discussion would be unnecessary if only Apple had done the right thing and left the freakin' $10 FireWire port in the MacBook. It's crazy they ever removed it!

Oct 20, 08 - 04:38 pm Comment from: KingMel

@lurker
Or you could pass on your FW-equipped MacBook and treat yourself to a MacBook Pro with FW800 *and* all of the new goodies.

Oct 20, 08 - 04:39 pm Comment from: Mr. Peabody

Do we want FW over ethernet? As it is I can't get myself to put backup drives on my home ethernet... I want my ethernet bandwidth for networking. Is that wrong? And please don't tell me the whole world is going to be stuck with USB now. USB is only adequate, nothing more.

I'm happy with my black MacBook that's 14 months old. I threw 3GB of RAM in it a few months back and it's great. Does everything I need, plus it's got FireWire for my fairly old Canon DV Camcorder and my even older (and damn louder!) FW Hard Drives.

The new MacBook design is really really nice and I reckon I'll really appreciate the unibody etc. (I'm a sucker for good industrial design) when I actually get to touch one in an Apple Store, but I cannot afford to replace all my FW kit, so I'll keep what I've got.



By the way, I thought I should let people know about this amazing software I stumbled across... I guess loads of people have it, but for those that don't I'd suggest you try out VirtualBox...

...I'm typing this on Windows XP, running virtualized inside OS X, with Ubuntu running at the same time as well. All on my little black MacBook

Peace.

@alansky

great comeback. i hope my comment angered you so much that you were lost for words and not only that, will switch to pcs.

ps it was nice knowing you. enjoy your pc

Oct 20, 08 - 04:43 pm Comment from: DRM sucks

"hey, listen do you hear that? no? its called silence. all the whiners of the world just shutup for a minute.

wait a few minutes, i am sure they will start again"

You already started.

@John
Canon has done it once in the 80s so all new lenses are not compatible with the old canons and the world is better for it.
Nikon needs to and hasn't since what, 1950s? At least they took out aperture rings on the 'G' lenses (Gelded) meaning my otherwise excellent 24-70mm f/2.8 G Nikkor lens will work crap with any manual focus cameras of yesteryear etc.
My D300 is now also rendered useless by Nikon releasing D700 and D90 in less than a year of releasing D300 and D3. If you don't understand that twist of knife-play, seriously, don't bring up photography.
OT: I'm seriously sorry I ever switched from Canon to Nikon last year, and mercifully I only dropped about $10,000 on lenses and gears.
Heh.
Steve Jobs - thank you sir, in just over two decades, you have yet to let me down.

So I can keep buying firewire audio equipment, firewire hard drives and firewire cameras based on a RUMOR!!! Yeah! I see all IT guys beting in Firewire interfaces, recommending MacBook based on a rumor from an Internet webpage! We need an Apple answer.... should we keep investing on Firewire 800 too?

@BlackMacBook

finally! someone reasonable.

i love firewire too, but i understand the sacrifice that was made. in fact,i have many choices. older macbook. or go pro. it all depends on whether or not i feel FW is worth the extra money, or how pretty the new macbooks look

Oct 20, 08 - 04:46 pm Comment from: Chas

FW is not going away on the pro gear - FW3200 is an emerging standard.

Apple are just dropping FW on their DOMESTIC kit. Don't see this happening on their pro gear any time soon.

Get a grip, people!!

=:~)

@Chas

yes! another reasonable person. where were you all?

Oct 20, 08 - 04:56 pm Comment from: Mr. Reeee

A reminder.
The new MacBook is Rev.A.
Rev.A = Avoid. Rev.A = betA

Remember the missing FireWire 800 port in the Rev.A MacBook Pro?
Remember, it reappeared in Rev.B. I bought Rev.C.

Let's hope Apple smartens up and puts the FireWire port back in the MacBook where it belongs.

For the folks who insist of the superiority of USB, here are some FireWire vs. USB articles and tests results:

http://www.qimaging.com/support/kb/whitepapers/firewire_usb_technote.pdf

http://www.technibble.com/firewire-vs-usb/

I've found this one quoted even on USB sites!
http://www.firewire-1394.com/firewire-vs-usb.htm

Oct 20, 08 - 04:56 pm Comment from: Mr. Reeee

Some FireWire FireWire, USB & eSATA Speed Tests:

http://barefeats.com/hard55.html
http://barefeats.com/hard66.html
http://barefeats.com/note04.html

@Mr. Reeee

you are correct. they might bring it back. it will be a good thing.
meanwhile those that MUST HAVE IT (not need it), they can just ante up and get the pro.
iphone had no 3G. now it does. they'll figure out the tech to make it all fit in due time.

Oct 20, 08 - 05:13 pm Comment from: drmacnut

@Chas

Okay, so you said that "Apple are just dropping FW on their DOMESTIC kit. Don't see this happening on their pro gear any time soon." How do you know that there aren't plans to drop FW in future revs of the MBP? You certainly didn't foresee their dropping of FW on the MacBook; none of us did!

Oct 20, 08 - 05:20 pm Comment from: Predrag

New MacBooks and MacBook Pros have almost identical specs. Dedicated graphic processors, same aluminium machined body, same glossy screen, same chicklet keyboard, same everything, except for the less than two inches of extra screen and a dual graphic card, for somewhat faster performance at the expense of the battery.

Can you think of anyone who would by MacBook Pro if MacBook also had the FireWire? Would you spend $700 more for two more diagonal inches? Let's get this straight, folks: FireWire isn't returning to MacBook until MacBook Pro is revised so that is is significantly faster and better than MB.

Oct 20, 08 - 05:21 pm Comment from: Predrag

And to answer the question from Mike from Fernie:

Tapeless camcoders are now the vast majority out there. They don't have FireWire. And iMovie08 can easily import their video (whether MPEG-2 Standard Def, or AVCHD High-Def), just like you import pictures in iPhoto. I have been using an AVCHD camcorder for five months now. I have accumulated 6 hours of HD video. Using iMovie08 and Toast 9, I have burned 6 Blu-ray formatted DVDs that play back in full HD on a Blu-ray player. So yes, USB2 works for all tapeless camcorders.

If you have MiniDV (whether for SD or HD), you must have FireWire. The USB ports on such a camcorder are only used for pictures you take (since they go onto the memory card/stick).

To all you pansies whining that Apple dropped Firewire on the "new" MacBook, I'd like to take the time to remind you all that Apple still sells the "old" MacBook with firewire. And since they are still selling it, chances are they are going to continue making it as well for the near future.

The problem with all this bellyaching is that everyone wants the new, shiny model rather than the old white one, and either can't afford the Pro or don't want to spend the money on it. Well guess what? When you are on a budget, you have to make sacrifices. If firewire is THAT important, then bite the bullet and upgrade or downgrade to the cheaper but otherwise perfectly usable older and readily available model.

I swear... you all sound like the Windows lemmings who complain about Apple not making an $800 laptop to suit them. Sheesh!

@ Predrag...
MacBook Pro 1999$ vs MacBook 1599$ (For 400$ you get..)
+15" vs 13" LCD - More Display Resolution
+nVidia GC 9600M GT
+One FireWire 800 port
+One ExpressCard/34 slot

"There is hope though," O'Grady reports. "IEEE 1394c is an extension to the FireWire standard (IEEE 1394/a/b) that would provide the ability for FireWire to run at 800Mbps over category 5 unshielded twisted pair cables. It’s still in development and just passed the first ballot."

IOW it's vaporware.

Never hold your breath for anything "in development" that promises "hope".

The problem is Apple isn't clear on their intent.

If Steve sees FW on its way out, then kill it across the board.

Saving pennies by de-featuring a lower-end machine is something worthy of Dell.

after macworld steve comes out and says we've had a lot request for firewire on the macbook, so we bringing it back shipping next month. Patience is a virtue.

Oct 20, 08 - 06:44 pm Comment from: Predrag

Tekorei:

Precisely my point, although you are using the most expensive MacBook as an example, whereas you should use the cheapest, since we all know that's the one that sells the most.

I can't possibly see how nVidia 9600 and ExpressCard slot would convince someone to spring extra $700. There aren't that many expresscard devices out there to begin with, and I really cant imagine anyone considering that a dealmaker/dealbreaker.

In other words, if you were to put FireWire into MB, you'd have a device that does everything that MBP does. The missing components (two inches, graphic card, Expresscard) would be insignificant for pretty much everyone.

Again, the differentiating factor had to be greater. Therefore, the tale of the missing FireWire.

This wasn't saving pennies by de-featuring a lower-end machine. This was protecting sales of a higher-end machine. Does anyone here really, honestly believe that Apple killed FW in order to save $6 on a machine that retails for $1,300 up (and 50% more in EU), where they make at least $300 in profits?

Oct 20, 08 - 08:18 pm Comment from: rdbvideo

Oh Joy!

Another adapter to buy... and carry around... then lose....
(if they don't figure out a way to make it obsolete before I lose it)

:/

If FW over ethernet comes in OS 10.6, and if TDM works with it, then great. But there was no reason why Apple couldn't have waited 6 months or a year until that was available. It's needed now, now later.

And I wish people would stop with the simplistic "answer" telling people to just pay more and get a MacBook Pro. First, many of us really do like the smaller size of the MacBook. It's my primary reason for getting it. Second, a portable is often a second (or 3rd or 4th or 5th) computer for us. Our main power is in our desktop(s). So we don't need a true "pro" laptop. A MacBook handles what we need.

Except now with no FW!

Oct 20, 08 - 10:54 pm Comment from: Cubert

@quad Core,
Very good point. I completely agree.

Oct 20, 08 - 11:49 pm Comment from: MacSmiley

If Apple wanted to differentiate the MacBook from the MacBook Pro, what in the world is wrong with FW400 on the MacBook?

Oct 21, 08 - 12:02 am Comment from: Predrag

MacSmiley,

Who would by MacBook Pro if MB had FW? Would you spend $700 for just slightly bigger screen? If MB had FW, they would sell the grand total of 32 MBPs at $2000 each, to those who just can't live without the two extra inches and an Expresscard slot.