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Dec 13, 09 - 08:16 pm Comment from: BlackWolf

That wasn't a bad story for AT&T;, but I'd like to have specific info as to the difference in the iPhones radios.

This article is bs. AT&T;'s network problems were there before the iPhone came into existence.

Dec 13, 09 - 08:34 pm Comment from: MediaXYZ

If it was a design flaw in the iPhone, why does it not affect other mobile carriers in other parts of the world, like London, or Sydney, for example?

Surely the best technical solution would be to let more than one carrier sell the iPhone, and distribute the data load over more than one network...

What hardware flaws?

My reception is just fine with Rogers' 3G coverage up here in Canada.

Dec 13, 09 - 09:00 pm Comment from: tvopdx

Perfect opportunity to flog AT&T;'s free iPhone app "Mark the Spot" which allows users to tell AT&T;exactly where and how frequently network problems are experienced.

AT&T;has had these spotty coverage issues before the iPhone. The only reason I'm on AT&T;is the iPhone. My contract is over, I'm waiting to see if there is a new carrier in the coming year and if it's better than AT&T;. There is still the chance that someone else will have their own issues or bastardize the options to a point that AT&T;looks good again.

"More evidence that AT&T;’s data network is head-and-shoulders above Verizon’s comes from Root Wireless, a start-up in Bellevue, Wash., that is developing software for consumers to install on their smartphones to do continuous network tests," Stross reports. "This year, Root Wireless ran 4.7 million tests on smartphones for each of the four major carriers, spread across seven metropolitan areas: Chicago, Dallas, Los Angeles/Orange County, New York, Seattle/Tacoma, the San Francisco Bay Area, and Washington. In every market, AT&T;had faster average download speeds and had signal strength of 75 percent or better more frequently than did Verizon."

Stross reports, "I asked Ron Dicklin, chief technology officer at Root Wireless, how these results, showing AT&T;as the clear leader, could be reconciled with the negative appraisal of Consumer Reports’ respondents. Heexplained that his company’s tests of AT&T;’s data network were done with handsets other than the iPhone, which does not allow non-Apple programs like his to run in the background... AT&T;, while meeting 4,000 percent growth in data use, has acquitted itself quite nicely."

Apple can settle this question once and for all by allowing some iPhones to download the software for consumers to install on their smartphones to do continuous network tests and see the true outcome.

Surely if Apple is confident of it's design and the best of internals that comprise the iPhone, then Apple should have nothing to worry about and the people can see where the problem truly lies!

Dec 13, 09 - 09:19 pm Comment from: simchad

My first i phone was dropping calls all the time.I complained to Roger's (Toronto,ON), and was given a new phone. I did not lose one call since then.(It's a few months).

I have no problem whatsoever with AT&T;. Yes I have an iPhone and get perfection reception, no dropped calls so I get a kick out of all these articles. In case your wondering I am in PA.

Daring Fireball's John Gruber has some strong opinions about this article, basically saying that the author managed to get it exactly wrong in his final conclusion, not in his original one. Here's his conclusion (though it's worth reading the points he makes leading up to it):

"...on the one hand we have the simple theory that AT&T;’s network stinks, especially in large metro areas, and extra-especially in New York City and San Francisco."

"On the other hand, we have the theory that AT&T;’s network is just fine because two network consulting companies say so, even though a Consumer Reports customer survey says otherwise, and it is the iPhone that is flawed, but the flaws are for some reason worse on AT&T;than other carriers around the world, and just happen to be worse still in some cities than others, and Apple has been unwilling and/or unable to address these flaws in three model years.

"I know which theory I’d put my money on."

AT&T;is the local phone company is much of the southeast and thus first to build cell towers and I've had no coverage problem even before getting an iPhone two years ago.
Since then I've spent several days in San Francisco for meetings and also had no problem with coverage including while doing a great deal of walking while shopping and moving around convention sites.
The few times I've encountered "dropped" calls it's usually been a problem on the other end of the line and that person's network.

Dec 13, 09 - 09:30 pm Comment from: kenh

Lets have the facts, whatever they are. I hope its not a repeat of the old Appletalk "chattiness" that caused big loads in printer networks.

Having said that, I am eagerly awaiting AT&T;taking over Alltel service in my area. 1st quarter of 2010. Confirmed by Alltel. When I asked the Alltel rep if my area (South Dakota) was included, she said yes. I told her that I was getting an iPhone, she just laughed. (in a nice way) I got the feeling she had heard this before.

It will be great because we have a long time Apple reseller here (Rapid City, near Mount Rushmore) who has tremendous service. They deserve the chance to sell the iPhone. I see IPod Touches every day.

But ....Apple: make sure this thing is not your problem. If it is, fix it. If it isn't, say so. Politely but firmly.

End this dispute pls! The solution is to let Apple to be sold in different carriers! Then we see who is superior to who. Here in Singapore, already 3 carriers are selling the iphone.

Hey my iPhone 3G works just fine on the Rogers network across Canada. I have had no problems in urban or rural areas. I think it is safe to say these problems are AT&T;related.

My belief is that the fault is with the iPhone's cellular networking hardware/firmware/software and Apple does not know how to fix it. I.e they are in a hole they cannot get out of without a massive recall. So, like so many times Apple has this type of problem, they just deny there is a problem.

ATT is in a position due to contractual arrangements that they cannot tell the world that it is Apple's fault. Mum is the word. It's all about money an legalities, not truth.

Roger Entner has been badmouthing the iPhone since day 1. He's been a consultant to Apple's competitors, and he can be counted on by journalists to pooh-pooh the iPhone. Just like Enderle.

I dumped ATnT days before the iPhone first came out. Couldn't make a call from
inside home to my wife ten miles away. Went with T-Mobile and we are very happy (except no iPhone.)

Up here in Canada on Fido, two iPhones, no issues whatsoever. We road travel to very rural areas and still no dropped calls. Obviously it is not a hardware firmware software issue with the iPhone. It's AT&T;plain and simple.

Dec 13, 09 - 11:57 pm Comment from: TheConfuzed1

@ Rike--

If the loss of 3G isn't a deal killer for you, just buy a used iPhone from Craigslist or eBay, jailbreak and unlock it, and pop in your T-Mobile sim card.

I've been using a cell phone in Canada for almost 20 years straight. I've had a lot of phones and have clocked a lot of time, been a lot of places and spent a lot of money. I've used every carrier available in Canada and am currently with Rogers (who are criminals).

in my experience the iPhone works as well as any phone I've ever owned. I get clear solid signal without flaw for the most part, say 98% of the time. I get the odd call drop, once a week or so but that has been my experience with the best and worst phones I've used and I've used 'em all.

in conclusion, it is my opinion that Roger Entner is a professional douche.

Dec 14, 09 - 12:19 am Comment from: macslut

That's a really good assessment of the article by MDN.

I'm flying back to San Francisco from New York now (thanks for the free wifi in-flight Google!).

Anyway, what I found in New York is that yes, it was typical that I could get faster 3G bandwidth than what Verizon even offers. However, I had tons of dropped calls, inability to make calls, and it coincided with times when you'd expect more traffic in the areas I was in. 5am...no problem anywhere. 5pm...all kinds of problems...dropped calls, inability to make calls, etc... all with full bars. It's *clearly* the case of over-capacity in New York City.

In San Francisco, it was more of a problem of the higher frequency they used and the inability of that frequency to deal with hills, buildings and so forth.

San Francisco has improved greatly in just the past couple of months. In New York, they still have a long ways to go and really need to catch up on capacity.

And the article is also ridiculous in stating that they couldn't get testing software on the iPhone. Haven't they heard of jailbreaking? If they aren't going to judge dropped called and inability to make calls, why aren't they just using other bandwidth testing methods that wouldn't even require jailbreaking the iPhone...hell, have they even tried the field test mode of the iPhone?

It's also silly to think it's a problem with the iPhone when not only as MDN points out, the iPhone does have great connectivity elsewhere, but also there were serious issues before the iPhone in San Francisco and New York, other users of phones on AT&T;are just as dissatisfied (real world feedback), and that whatever the supposed problem could be, that AT&T;didn't work with Apple to make sure that by the 3rd generation that problem wasn't resolved?

Dec 14, 09 - 12:25 am Comment from: Gregg Thurman

"End this dispute pls! The solution is to let Apple to be sold in different carriers! Then we see who is superior to who. Here in Singapore, already 3 carriers are selling the iphone."

If there were three GSM networks in the US you could do exactly that. Problem is ATT's nearest competitor uses CDMA (a horrible technology of r smart phone use), and the other two are also rans in coverage.

I was a Sprint and Verizon user before getting the original iPhone (on day #1). I can honestly say that my ATT service has been better than with the other two. Period.

The big problem with user experience is that they haven't a clue why they are having a problem. They use ATT but the person they are talking to uses Verizon (or something else). Is the dropped call ATT's fault, or is the fault at the other end? Without proper recording and analysis technologies, with complete disclosure by all the carriers, NOBODY knows where the problems exist.

Dec 14, 09 - 12:30 am Comment from: Derek in Milan

Using the iphone in Canada since it came out (jailbroken, then 'legit' on Rogers.
(Yes, they ARE criminals)

Had a Razr before that and find the iPhone (have two) to be just fine.

Dropped calls? A few, but no more than any other phone. Maybe less, because I use the iPhone WAY more than I ever did all those other pieces of crap.

I imagine that it must be so painful for all the networks when the iPhones arrive because they are actually USEABLE as data devices, unlike all the other 'smartphones'.

The networks were happy when we couldnt do squat with data; now they are having to deliver and they dont like it.
The networks are losing control and are heading for 'dumb pipe' status - fast.

This negative reporting has SFA to do with the iPhone.

Dec 14, 09 - 12:34 am Comment from: eon2010

I think this is a sad but reasonable situation. The advances made by the introduction of the iPhone definitely have had an amazing result on the overall mobile market and just as the MacBook has had problems with the case design perhaps due to the type of material, overtime these aspects are corrected as Apple provides free-of-charge replacement of the casing. But knowing the problem, Apple took great pains in research and development to come up with great solution in the unibody process. The iPhone is Apple's introductory product to the telephony mobile space and has quickly improved with the iPhone 3Gs and I'm sure that the next iPhone model, especially if it is rolled out with their tablet, will have fixes to the problems mentioned. Apple is looking at the big picture of the changes that the initial iPhone release provided. Now as they've learned more about the necessary technologies in telephony, be rest assured that the next version will suppress those problems and continue on the path of innovation that they've laid out for themselves.

No problem down here in NZ.... I think iPhone/Network problem only exist in USA....

Dec 14, 09 - 12:37 am Comment from: MacTony

LOL.... Verizon is always at the top in nationwide surveys. AT&T;is always at or near the bottom. The proof is in the pudding. When I'm out in rural areas, everyone is talking on their cells. Me.... I have ZERO service. If Verizon loses some of that ego and get the iPhone, you would see a flood of people going over to them. Myself included.

Dec 14, 09 - 12:39 am Comment from: eon2010

A better investigation is whether other international carriers have experienced similar problems and if not, then perhaps there needs to be a world wide consortium amongst the GMS providers to insure that all providers follow proven technologies to insure customer satisfaction. In some cases, global acceptance on a good standard is good for all customers.

Dec 14, 09 - 12:40 am Comment from: eon2010

OOps... GMS should read GSM

if At&T;'s network claims were any good, then my AT&T;GSM phone would work where their coverage map says it does... not. No service, no coverage at all.

AT&T;simply lies.

Dec 14, 09 - 12:49 am Comment from: eon2010

One other possibility is that since the iPhone was the first phone to include computer-like aspects, perhaps the design flaws noted were perhaps advances that other regular and smartphones simply didn't include and in the long run, once the network has equaled the level that the hardware requires will advance it far beyond what the competition offers. Unless it truly is a U.S.A problem that no other iPhone carriers experience.

Dec 14, 09 - 12:59 am Comment from: eon2010

Nokia wants to know some of the iPhone's secrets, so that there tells you that Apple is doing something different so much that the top phone hardware manufacturer was attempting to obtain some of the design concepts that isn't in public knowledge. This computer maker is bringing the phone industry into the 21st century and taking the cell-networks with it.

Dec 14, 09 - 01:03 am Comment from: Big Als MBP

A cell tower can handle only a finite number of calls and/or data streams at a time. At peak times, with full bars, you get dropped calls.

The cell network is only designed to handle normal peak hours. Extraordinary events like a natural or man made disaster will bring a network down.

Apparently, in New York or San Francisco, the suppertime rush hour is an extraordinary event for ATandT.

Don't hang ATandT's lack of peak capacity around iPhone's neck.

iPhone works flawlessly in every single European country, bar none, and no (zero) issues. This is more steaming shit from this dumb asshat about the iPhone.

This writer does not know his head from his anus, as with most tech journalists.

"Roger Entner, senior vice president for telecommunications research at Nielsen, said the iPhone’s 'air interface,' the electronics in the phone that connect it to the cell towers, had shortcomings that 'affect both voice and data..."

... and the shortcomings are?

Stupid article. Perhaps one of the iPhone wannabes has been in Entner's ear...

@The real truth
Its only a problem for Apple if its hardware - everything else can be fixed by a software update. Cellular communications is an old technology and handled by specialised chips - and it is extremely unlikely that they don't work...

There is NO problem with my iPhone on the Virgin/Optus network in Australia

Dec 14, 09 - 02:17 am Comment from: ron

Never had a dropped call in San Diego. It's finally raining here.

Prior to being made available for sale, all cells phones must be certified by the FCC to be able to perform within certain parameters and without causing interference to the use of other cell phones or interfering with the use licensed spectrum. The iPhone passed those test and received the FCC's certification. And prior to AT&T;accepting the iPhone, both Apple and AT&T;extensively tested the iPhone on AT&T;'s network to be certain that it would work properly on AT&T;'s network. Once again, it must have passed those test for AT&T;to have accepted the iPhone on its network. For these reasons and for the reasons cited, supra, by MacDailyNews, it seems unlikely that any flaw in the iPhone is causing the poor quality of service on AT&T;'s network. It is a more likely inference that AT&T;'s network simply can handle the increased demand that the iPhone places on it.

What a shill Roger Entner is. This suggestion is complete BULLSHIT and deserves to be ridiculed.

AT&T;have ADMITTED that the NY and San Fran networks need to be improved.

Shame on the NYT… and wake up MDN.

As hinted above I have seen no reports of bad reception here in Europe. From a personal viewpoint two friends have iPhones and neither have a problem, indeed one is able to get reception in a pub where I have never been able to get it on any phone I have had and from either Vodaphone or 3 network.

Just for the record. My iPhone 3GS never drops any calls here in Stockholm on the Telia network. Flawless. My 2 cents.

Oh yeah. That's Stockholm in Sweden, Europe for all you yanks.

am i the only one who doesnt have problems with AT&T;?

Dec 14, 09 - 09:16 am Comment from: HMCIV

@ drbojoru

Oh don't worry. All of us on this board know where Stolkholm is. We also know of the Syndrom which all of you suffer.

My theory is Verizon employs a number of signal jamming devices to disrupt GSM networks. You think those can you hear me no guys are wandering around just for the heck of it?

In the UK I've never had a problem with reception, other than weak 3G in certain areas, but I've witnessed that on other phones too. In fact in my office my reception is fine on my iPhone whilst one of colleagues on orange can barely use his phone. That said, my iPhone is again suffering from a problem of it randomly deciding that headphones are plugged in when they're not meaning I don't hear the thing ring or if I'm using it for something that outputs sound (a game say) it just stops playing. I've had it replaced once but it's out of warranty now so I'll have to book yet another appointment at an apple store and see what they say.

I tend to agree with the article. I was an AT&T;customer using the SLVR and never had any problems with that phone. I've owned both the 2G and 3GS iPhones and have dropped calls and trouble getting a decent signal in areas where the SLVR would pick up a strong signal. I've long been convinced that the iPhone was the problem, not the the network.

For what its worth, I was a Verizon customer for a decade before switching to AT&T;and in my experience with the two networks I prefer AT&T;'s network to Verizon's cobbled up network.

Dec 14, 09 - 11:04 am Comment from: MidWest Mac

The iPhone is built with commodity parts like any other phone. The same 3G radio in the iPhone is likely also in other phones.

This is FUD.

Dec 14, 09 - 11:28 am Comment from: Predrag

It truly amazes me how people refuse to believe when someone presents them with some properly done research and measurement, but would rather believe anecdotal evidence from their friends, some bloggers or Consumer Report.

If anyone forgot, iPhone 3G had serious issues with connectivity when it was released, and it took an update to resolve some of those. The problem is, iPhone is (what someone hinted above) very "chatty" on the wireless network. Much more so than any other device (google this up if you don't believe). This presents no problem in areas with plenty of wireless throughput. If there are a hundred iPhones in Wichita, Kansas, they'll all get full bars and full bandwidth. But in NYC, there are 100 iPhone users in one floor of a 60-floor building, and there are a hundred of those per square mile. Same goes for London, Paris, Frankfurt and yes, Stockholm. Nowhere near the iPhone density as in NYC or SF, and nowhere near the poor network buildout as in the US. Other countries are much smaller, and their carriers have a lot fewer square kilometres to cover with towers. Not to mention that their average voice and data rates are often more expensive than in the US, bringing in more revenue for building out those networks and beefing up big cities.

The fact remains; iPhone places an unreasonable burden on a carrier. In the rest of the world, carriers don't have such heavy hotspots with as great a concentration of iPhones per square kilometre. In the US, no carrier has network density anywhere near that of any EU country (bandwidth-per-user). Of all US carriers, AT&T has the highest density. Apparently, iPhone gobbles it up by hoarding it for itself, even when it doesn't need it all.

This is a battle AT&T can't seem to possibly win, when consumers are ignorant. After all, they just don't care; they want their iPhones to work, and Apple apparently cannot do wrong here.

"This is a battle AT&T;can't seem to possibly win, when consumers are ignorant. After all, they just don't care; they want their iPhones to work, and Apple apparently cannot do wrong here."

The potential phone/data density in countries like Korea, Japan, and the European countries is incomparably higher than in the US. And the usage is much more rationalized in these other countries because of the rate structuring being more tied to use. Europeans and Asians are used to this, but Americans are extremely lazy and gluttonous in their behavior (in general), so they are much more wasteful of limited resources (again, in general).

ATT's proposal of creating a more granular rate structuring would solve this problem. I for one do not like paying for the hogs (just as I don't like paying the heath costs of millions of obese Americans), so I would prefer ATT reworking its rate plans. A 5GB plan for $20, for example, would be great.

I find it baffling when I read about these supposed "design flaws" in the iPhone. Why is it, after almost 3 years of use, have I not encountered any of these so-called flaws? Why have I never dropped a call with my iPhone? Why, after owning countless cell phones over the past ten years, do I consider the iPhone by far the best phone I've ever owned in terms of voice quality and smartphone features? Am I just lucky, am I the only one with such a perfect device?

Dec 14, 09 - 12:18 pm Comment from: Predrag

Renaldo,

You are in many ways absolutely right (although your generalisations about Americans might offend some of the visitors to this site).

As for iPhone's design flaws, if you use yours in an area with a reasonably low network density (persons per available bandwidth), the flaws don't represent themselves in daily use. Kind of like if you drive to work, but work an odd shift (say, 11 to 7, instead of 9 to 5), you'll never know that your local interstate is a major bottleneck on the way downtown. For all you know, there are no problems driving into the city and back.

If Lamborgini, McLaren and Ferrarri runs very slow in congestion road like Los Angeles or San Francisco where there are too much cars on the street, then those cars has flaws???? that's ridiculus..

Dec 14, 09 - 12:37 pm Comment from: theloniousMac

Periodically I get a dropped call on my 3gs. Generally speaking though, I have no problem. Hint: When people start attacking the quality of the iPhone itself, follow the money.