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I use it for all my home movies.

Finally a topic I know a lot about. It's not simply a matter of pricing that's killing Avid. It's the fact that they are sticking to the old way of doing business. Where Apple gives you everything right out of the box for a thousand bucks or so, Avid gimps up their software offerings and structures the prices accordingly. Want more than just the basics? Pay up.

I began editing with Media Composer in '95 and switched to FCP a few years ago. Final Cut isn't perfect by any means but you can tell by the frequent (and major) upgrades that Apple is serious about trying to make it perfect.

Another factor is that people are more attached to the Mac than their editing software. A few years ago, when it looked like Avid might drop Mac support altogether, I told our Avid rep that I'd drop them before I'd drop my Mac, period. He seemed surprised by that but I imagine they heard that a lot.

Apr 04, 08 - 10:17 am Comment from: Ampar

"Last month, Avid struck back by slashing the price of Media Composer from $5,000 to $2,500."

Smell that? It's not your upper lip. It's the stink of desperation. Adapt or die.

Apr 04, 08 - 10:34 am Comment from: Mr. Peabody

Ditto on the last part of Red Hot Ryder's comments. In the beginning Avid was a Mac only product but when they started developing for Windows they started slowing their Mac development almost immediately, and ultimately tried to drop Mac development altogether. A scenario not completely unlike that of Adobe - at least in principle. I think Avid shot themselves in the foot when they tried to drop Mac development and they've been trying to make up the difference ever since.

Avid is also the parent company to Digidesign, the makers of ProTools. To the credit of Digidesign they were generally not willing to slow their Mac software development when they started developing for Windows, even though there was a brief period when their Windows updates were coming out before the Mac updates, and several midwestern based authorized ProTools dealers were pushing the Windows products over the Mac, even to Mac based production rooms.

I don't see why developers like Avid and Adobe don't ever seem to be able to see the light - when they start out as a Mac software developer, establish themselves, then try to drop the platform, it never ever works in their favor - But they keep trying. Adobe had Premiere or the Mac, then they didn't, now they do again. Avid had Avid Express for the Mac, then they didn't, now they do again.

MS must push their "partners" very hard on this issue - especially when the partner is a former Mac developer. Really, the best thing is to stay away from developing for MS Windows. I realize why developers started crossing over in the early and middle 90's, but the Mac is well on its way back up and there is plenty of money to made developing solid products for the Macintosh platform. Come back, not just begrudgingly, but with your whole heart. It's good here, very very good.

No everyone is married to their HW/OS vendor over their editing suite.

There are many editors died in the wool AVID that will never leave. For the true pro, it is about efficiency, and $20k for a system that does not deliver any sort of 3-6 month learning curve, but puts money into their pockets, they'll stay right where they are.

Apple has simply been undercutting AVID in prince point, moving north to match AVID in feature set, and hitting the educational market hard. Those students have been bleeding into the pro space for years, and AVID is only now waking up to the cold hard fact (for AVID), that these people are staying Mac and FCP.

Personally, I have a friend who could easily move to FCP Studio, and save himself $15k easy, but he won't do it. He'll continue to listen to the AVID sales guy at the local pro video store, tell him ignorant information about FCP (or outright lies), probably because he makes a much higher commission rate on AVID, and my friend will drink the coolaid so he can feel good about staying AVID Media Composer.

My friend should schedule a meeting with the Studio Genius at an Apple Store, and hear both sides of the story... won't happen though. He's died in the wool AVID and I'm died in the wool Mac so there you go.

I hate to say it, but this warms my heart. (no, I don't hate to say it.)

All those years that Avid "stuck it to me", with not only horrible pricing, but also buggy software. I'll never forget the Radius rep asking me, "you're paying how much for beta testing their supposedly final version software?"
Too many hours were spent waiting in queue to talk to tech support.
Argh! Bad memories... can't go there.

I switched to Final Cut from day one, and haven't looked back. Avid was better than linear editing, in it's day... but that day is over!
Thank you Apple for FCP!

Steve:
You're killing me with all your wool deaths. It's "dyed in the wool." You know, like textile terminology.

But I know where you're coming from with your blinkered friend.

Apr 04, 08 - 10:55 am Comment from: smackman

All this PLUS the fact that Avid has announced that they are cutting Xpress Pro products and going to offer media composer ONLY. Either software only or with hardware.

Plus, let us all contemplete this a bit further. With 8-core machine beginning to become commonplace, what are all going to NEED hardware acceleration for. Namely, Avid Nitrs/Adrenelne and Pro Tools HD systems.

Apr 04, 08 - 10:56 am Comment from: Demon

With Avid there is no integration (not even to Avid Pro Tools) for the music score product it requires a lot of retiming and general mucking about. With Final Cut Studio and Logic Studio it's a direct integration and the timing matches without all the mucking about and retiming your score. Avid Media Composer is old and clunky. I've scored some TV shows and did some songs for movies. In production time is money and with Final Cut and Logic the production is more efficient and faster. Cost is also a consideration for the price of one Avid Media Composer station with all the add-on required to equal a Final Cut station you can run 3 or more Final Cut Stations that are more productive so, you can get your product to a more polished level faster and at a lower price point.

Avid and Digi use convoluted, over priced and hardware schemes. They have convinced people that they are "industry standard". Bunch of B.S.. They use the same ridiculousness to try to push people to Protools over Logic. To use their "better" software you need their "better" hardware. You can run a Final Cut or Logic Studio for a fraction of the cost, have more track counts, more power and interface versatility............ or you can throw (many thousands) more money away on "industry standard" hardware and have the same ole' results. Same applys to Adobe..... They're next. Think out of the box..... or should I say out of the DSP card/interface.

Apr 04, 08 - 11:01 am Comment from: iWill

Michael Wohl, a video editor who was hired by Apple, along with Randy Ubillos, the designer of Adobe Premier/Macromedia Final Cut, recounts the story of their first meeting with Steve Jobs regarding the development of Final Cut Pro. They all sat down at an Avid and compared it to the emerging FCP, where upon Steve says "Make it like the Avid, after all, its just ones and zeros!"

Apparently, Steve was seriously considering to give away the software for free, bundled with QuickTime or some such thing. People quickly made the point that you must attach value to perceive value in this new product.

The rest, as they say, is Hollywood history. . .

Apr 04, 08 - 11:21 am Comment from: Ampar

"You're killing me with all your wool deaths."

I pictured Mr. Roger being laid to rest in his famous sweater.

Video folks aren't the only ones who've suffered at the hands of Avid. Us audio folks have had the rug ripped out from under us by Avid too. They and their subsidiary M-Audio have bought companies and stopped all further development on the Mac versions of those companies' products. Wizooverb, Latigo, Darbuka, Key Rig, Bass Rig, are all Avid victims. Then, there's the buggy, highly overpriced and way overrated ProTools. Thanks for nothing, Avid. Hope you lose all your customers to Apple and MOTU.

It's a well deserved decline for Avid. They've abandoned the Mac platform for years and forced Apple to react with FCP... For those who have been around a little know that Avid has been in bed with Microsoft trying to take down Apple on the video editing field...

For those who are new to all this... here's a brief history...
http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/RDM.Tech.Q1.07/8AA115DC-2398-456E-9319-FE5842A41BD1.html

@Mr. Peabody

Take a look on this link!

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Apple/?p=1505

Apr 04, 08 - 11:37 am Comment from: Mr. Peabody

So in other words - this is no love-fest. for Avid or its subs. I wonder if anybody at Avid will stumble across this thread. For their own sakes I hope so.

Apr 04, 08 - 11:44 am Comment from: Mr. Peabody

@MacChiita

Very good link, thanks! And Oh Lord! Don't get me started on Windows Media...!

Apr 04, 08 - 11:47 am Comment from: Ampar

To MacChiita:

Great link. Thanks! It should be required reading in schools everywhere.

Apr 04, 08 - 11:48 am Comment from: since1985

Required reading -- if you are at all interested in this subject of why Avid began forsaking the Mac -- is "How Microsoft Pushed QuickTime's Final Cut" at RoughlyDrafted.com:

http://tinyurl.com/2c58r2

For those with limited time or attention span, jump to the section "Microsoft Partners with Avid Against QuickTime".

I remember the days when Avid became a turncoat at NAB, where Avid representatives were promoting Avid for Windows and suggesting Avid was dropping support for the Mac altogether. NAB caused quite a stir and immediately Avid reps were backpedaling. I remember calling and chewing out an Avid rep who referred to the NAB pitch as an unfortunate incident and insisted they weren't forsaking the Mac. But, for me, the damage had been done.

This is what you get for selling out to Microsoft. You'll cruise for a few years and then end up wrecked.

Avid should rename the company...Quark.

Apr 04, 08 - 12:01 pm Comment from: ericdano

Biggest Problem for Avid is that they take FOREVER to certify their software for systems. They still do not have ProTools certified for 10.5.2. They have it certified, sort of, for new MacPro's under 10.5.1.........and LE and M-Powered ProTools still aren't certified. Nor are a ton of their driver software.

Stupid.

Apr 04, 08 - 12:06 pm Comment from: Ampar

"You'll cruise for a few years and then end up wrecked."

Microsoft, the abusive friend. "Things were going great at first and then Steve Ballmer starting showing up announced for dinner. Now, the dog's pregnant again, my jewelry and underwear is missing and there's that growing stain on the carpet in the living room that's making the whole family sick."

Apr 04, 08 - 12:07 pm Comment from: Ampar

"showing up unannounced"

Yeah, editing would be nice. Maybe one day. And way off-topic, the new mobile MDN version is much appreciated.

@ Steve

Point taken, but I would wager that many, many more people are married to the Mac as opposed to the Avid. I have a lot of editor friends who went the same route as I did and who've never looked back. Come to think of it, I can't think of one person in the industry that I know personally who has stuck with Avid. Of course, that's not to say there aren't any (like your friend) but I think the Mac engenders the kind of loyalty of which Avid can only dream.

@ Demon

You are absolutely correct.

The major reason our audio teams were forced to switch to the Windows version of Pro Tools was because the video guys insisted on using Avid, and the Mac would not work with Avid's Unity server, which the video guys also insisted on using. Some of the audio guys say the Windows version is actually about as good and that Unity really saves them a lot of work by allowing them to edit from a common server and keep the time code in sync. I don't know. I still like my Mac more than any particular software application. At home I still use the Mac version of Pro Tools, and it works great.

Apr 04, 08 - 02:00 pm Comment from: Bob

I used to use the AVID system back in the day, but even then there were things I could do so much easier in After Effects or Adobe Premiere.

I never liked their nickel-and-dime-you-to-death attitude, but back then you had no other option, mainly because they were the only ones providing an all-in-one hardware and software solution for the mac.

Well, times have changed. Current computer hardware is capable of handling many of the transitions and effects that once were only accomplished through the use of additional video cards. So now it's come down to Software and to be honest I never was a huge fan of the AVID user interface. It was a chore to try to import other content such as titles or quicktime movies into their system. I hated it.

I've been using Final Cut Pro since the first version. It's not perfect, but it doesn't hold me back when I'm trying to implement my ideas into a project, which AVID always seemed to do.

I still know a few people that swear by AVID, but slowing they are seeing the light.

If you saw the documentary, "Can Mr. Smith Get To Washington Anymore?", the entire trailer and all the titles were created using Final Cut Pro.

Reality TV shows still are 97% Avid due to the massive number of edit suites and media management required. Apple is improving in this regard (active database management). I still have FCP projects on my home system that become unlinked from media all too often. That would be a nightmare on a show with over 100,000 clips in the system (over the length of the series). And losing your renders for just soloing a video layer is unforgivable. But Reality TV is a very minor slice of TV production. A friend of mine recently said an Avid rep claims outside of LA, few customer care about a Mac version. With the changing Mac marketshare,that is shortsighted thinking.

The people that swear by Avid - are either the business owners who have sunk so much money into it they are trying to save face or the operators who work for the owners who have sunk so much money into it.

Avid is a dinosaur nobody will mind becoming extinct.

Apr 04, 08 - 04:01 pm Comment from: Ampar

"Avid is a dinosaur . . ."

With a big head and tiny arms.

That's right because apple rules, no one can ever be better than them and final cut studio rocks!

Avid is the quintessential example of 'The Old Guard" in production. They are from a time when an off the shelf computer could not non-linear editing. As computers became capable by themselves, Avid needed to adapt....and didn't. They stck to building hardware and allowed their software to become dated.

It is just like the old producers that used to have $500,000 in editing equipment and charged outrageous prices for short videos. Once talented people could buy a $3000 set-up and create better productions, they were doomed.

And of course, Avid isn't alone. Look at all the other industry-leaing companies that failed to adapt....and then just failed....

PictureTel, VTech (not the toy company), Digital Creations and even Electronic Arts (DeluxePaint)

"Apple has simply been undercutting AVID in prince point, moving north to match"

I have to somewhat disagree. I was working at a TV station that used Avids when FCP came out. We installed one FCP station and it quickly became a favorite. Not because of price, as we didn't buy it, but because it was easier to learn and use, and it handled graphics 1 million times better. On the media composer, you had to create a color version of your image or animation. Then you had to create a matte for that image or animation (twice the rendering!!!!). Then you had to bring each into the avid separately and match them together. With FCP we just had to create one file and render one animation. This saved TONS of time.

"Looking back, for the most part, professional Mac users held the line and were loyal to the platform."

We held the line. And we (Mac users of all segments) are winning the war.

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Apple/?p=1505

avid needs to be bought by adobe or microsoft

Anyone ever curious as to why PIXAR (owned by Steve Jobs) does NOT use Final Cut Pro - They only use Avid Technology.

They tried to use FCP...but had to switch back to Avid.

hmmm...maybe Avid is still good something.