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Gotta love those clueless, big talkin' CEOs like Colligan that got to where they are through politicking (i.e., most CEOs). I bet graphing Apple's increasing smart phone market share against Palm's decreasing market share the last 18 months would be a cute image.
Go Apple!

I really want to see what Nova brings, so I hope Palm makes it.

The only way Palm stands a chance is if Nova OS leapfrogs the iPhone's OS X. Good luck with that, Palm.

I was strapped with a Palm 700P Treo brick for two years... TWO YEARS of my life I will never get back. WOW how I hated that thing. What a complete piece of JUNK! It had all the great features but none of them really worked in practice. After about 6 months I terminated my data plan and for the next year and a half I just used it as a phone. What a waste of $$$.

Never under estimate the ability of your competitors. When you rest on your laurels is when you get knocked off your pedestal, especially in the technology field. I'd like to see Palm survive, but it may take a Xmas miracle for that to happen. That miracle would be along the same lines as a virgin birth.

Dec 03, 08 - 12:40 am Comment from: MacBill

Calling the Treo a piece of junk is absolutely ridiculous. The Treo is a wonderful device, and there are a TON of things that the Treo can do that the iPhone DOESN'T DO!!

#1. The Treo can SYNCHRONIZE NOTES BIDIRECTIONALLY BETWEEN ITSELF AND YOUR MAC! Right there is the dealbreaker for ever thinking about getting an iPhone if you're a real business user who actually depends on having your notes with you at all times, you need a Treo or a Blackberry. Let's see -- the last time I checked, the iPhone synced its notes with ... um, NOTHING! The notes on the iPhone are a worthless application. And there are no other 3rd-party notes apps for the iPhone that do bidrectional syncing.

#2. The Treo can cut, copy, and paste... and very easily, too. We personally use this feature HUNDREDS UPON HUNDREDS OF TIMES per day.

#3. The Treo has FileMaker Mobile, which syncs to FileMaker on the Mac. Until Apple opens up true native syncing ability for 3rd-party apps, we may never see this.

#4. The Treo has Pocket Quicken, which syncs to FileMaker on the Mac. Until Apple opens up true native syncing ability for 3rd-party apps, we may never see this.

#5. The Treo has MMS.

#6. The Treo can synchronize your SUBSCRIBED CALENDARS, such as US Holidays. Um, hello, iPhone?!

#7. The Treo can read, write, and edit Microsoft Word & Excel documents!

#8. The Treo has a very powerful email application built in, along with many great 3rd-party email applications such as SnapperMail. These programs let you have -- amongst other things -- multiple account-based signatures (instead of iPhone's measly one signature for ALL accounts), a unified inbox for multiple accounts, and much more.

#9. The Treo, upon syncing your calendars, ACTUALLY REMEMBERS THE COLOR THAT YOU USE FOR EACH CATEGORY. The iPhone does NOT remember the color -- it assigns an arbitrary color to your iPhone. Sorry, but this is completely unacceptable.

#10. The Treo has a real keyboard. Sorry, but it's much easier & faster to type on a real keyboard than a virtual keyboard. I was clocked at 71 wpm on my Treo keyboard. Can't type that fast on an iPhone.

#11. Not tied down to AT&T;. The Treo is available on Sprint, Verizon, and T-Mobile, in addition to AT&T;. Your choice of carrier. Sprint is $99 per month for unlimited everything -- AT&T;is waaaay more expensive. Sprint and Verizon have better coverage across the US, and way less dropped calls.

#12. You can unlock your GSM-based Treo and pop in a 3rd-party SIM card.

Shall I go on?

The Treo is a trud. Nuff said.

@macbill

Yes, the Treo has a great list of features, but are they well implemented? My experience with Palm has always been that it technically COULD do something, but it was always in a clunky, work-around sort of way. Comparing feature sets isn't always the best way to look at something if features that exist are useless or clunky. iPhone doesn't do everything, but what it does do, it does well. Gradually, I think software updates and new apps will fill the gaps you refer to and these will generally be much better implementations than what Palm has. I loved my Palm back in 2000, but seriously, besides adding a phone, doesn't the Treo basically look just like my m125?

Dec 03, 08 - 01:03 am Comment from: MacBill

@Bill Moseley:

By the way, I had a typo in my #4 above. I meant that the Treo has Pocket Quicken, which syncs to Quicken on the Mac (not FileMaker).

I know what you're saying about the Treo seeming like it's not well-integrated or well-thought-out, because I've seen *MANY* people who once struggled with the Treo who are now rejoicing with their iPhones.

However, if you are even the least bit technically minded (like many of the people who read this site), the Treo does not take a long time to master. I personally find it incredibly intuitive and it makes a lot of sense to me. I find it significantly easier to navigate and get business work done on the Treo than on the iPhone. (Heck, I can't even DO a lot of my business work on the iPhone, as I mentioned above).

But I think the problem is that most consumers have like a 2-second attention span and need the oversimplified interface of the iPhone. Most consumers don't even know how to drop down a menu on the Treo, even though it only takes a moment to figure out.

I think what I'm trying to say is this: The iPhone is a great & fun device, but it's NOT a full-blown PDA. I hope it will be someday... when it is, I will purchase one. But until then, I have to stick with my Treo. I don't have a choice! I need notes syncing, Pocket Quicken, and FileMaker Mobile!

Dec 03, 08 - 02:02 am Comment from: WriterGuy

I had a Treo 180 and a Treo 600, and the quality leap to the iPhone is enormous (I didn't bother with the Treo 700, based on reviews).

Yes, it COULD do everything, but I couldn't get most of it to work. The memory limitation was so bad, I couldn't even update the OS. The web browser was so bad as to be unusable. The phone was nice and the email was workable. But the rest?

Didn't do it for me...

Laundry list of features aren't always helpful if they are one sided.

Some people like to boast features on other phones that iPhone doesn't have, yet the same people don't list the features that are unique to the iPhone that are missing on the other phones.

I can name a lot of things that I enjoy tremendously on my iPhone, but I won't offer up a feature list here. If you don't know by now, you're missing out, besides, just what the App Stores alone brings to the table will be too many to mention. Many who read here have iPhones. And many of them who read your feature list on their iPhone's Safari probably just said, "uh-huh, great. Really, good for you."

Seriously, I feel bad for Palm. I am an engineer, and I am biased towards almost all tech firms and want them to weather this economic storm that they didn't cause. Greedy banks, realtors and war mongers would be the first few, probably, if I have to create a list on that. I hope Palm survives this, it appears they cater to a different group of people as is evidenced by your list. Frankly, if I needed that much typing and computing on my mobile, I'd get a netbook at this point. Or maybe Apple will offer a slightly larger than iPhone iProSomethingMultiTouchTablet to fill the gap and trounce everyone. Apple is awakening a platform after all, and you don't offer just one product for a platform to be powerful.

Yeah, go ahead, cut and paste that.

Dec 03, 08 - 02:58 am Comment from: The Other Steve

Maybe Palm can fly to Washington and ask Congress for some help.

Word of advice, fly coach.

Dec 03, 08 - 03:08 am Comment from: The Other Steve

"if Palm can get products using its Nova operating system . . . out in the market before sales of Treos dwindle to zero, it has a chance to regain its perch atop the mobile computing world"

Rushing a product before it is ready is bad advice and can only make things worse. Ship it when it is ready. If it is good it will sell.

If Nova isn't good even with time, then Palm is dead.

RIM can afford a Storm, Palm can't.

Dec 03, 08 - 03:45 am Comment from: MacSmiley

I don't have a choice. I live in a state where AT&T;does not do business. I hope Palm stays alive at least until the iPhone comes to South Dakota.

Like it or not Palm users are deserting in droves and aren't doing that simply on a whim. If those users were so happy with the feature set on offer and indeed above everything else the phone can/cannot do, then that simply would not be the case. I think people who are tech savvy enough to wade through usability issues with a boost to their ego can't see the fuss, but those of us who want technology to be easily accessible to all and who will always be the bulk of the buyers for consumer products will always put usability of the functions we most need over the shear list of functions alone. Having gone down that latter road too often with poorly designed Japanese electronics I now know which option I would choose every time.

i wonder what the investors are doing? i'd quickly snatch my money back while there's still some left. Those who 'ride it out' are riding a tsunami into a mountainside. Usually about now, the 'suits' start taking what they can from the sinking ship, and creditors the rest.

Dec 03, 08 - 06:46 am Comment from: Metryq

"The only way Palm stands a chance is if Nova OS leapfrogs the iPhone's OS X. Good luck with that, Palm."

I've read the possibly apocryphal story that the Chevy Nova would not sell in Spanish-speaking countries because "no va" means "it does not go."

Dec 03, 08 - 08:05 am Comment from: LordRobin

The "Nova"/"no va" story is a myth. Spanish speakers aren't that stupid.

------RM

Dec 03, 08 - 08:18 am Comment from: chaz

I think Apple is squandering it's lead with the iPhone. Some very very curious decisions that IMHO are holding this thing back from truly pulverizing the competition:

True Sync
Link to AT&T;(Why the heck do this?????)
Cut and paste!!!

Seems like if Apple was really really listening to it's customers these items wouldn't be still hanging around almost 2 YEARS after the release. 2 Years is a long in tech time.

Palm made my first PDA and it was a good one! It is a shame to see what this company has become, but the marketplace dictates who will succeed and who won't.

Say what you will, there's still no program like Vindigo on the iPhone, whereas it worked great on my Palm, for years.

And no, Yelp is not nearly as good.

I'd really like to see Palm survive and even thrive with some great products. They used to "get it", and Apple badly needs the competition. Sadly I think the chances of that are slim.

If the iPhone had not come along I would eventually have gotten a Treo, though a Blackberry would also have been tempting. I still have an old Handspring and an old Palm around here somewhere. Now I'll be staying with iPhones, and my wife will, unless Apple really drops the ball.

I have the iPhone, and the one HARD requirement I have is the use of Pocket Quicken and synching with Quicken on my Mac.

It kind of pisses me off that Apple/Intuit has not allowed this to happen.

The reason I went to the iPhone was more of a PDA problem with Palm: The last Palm I had was a Tungsten C, and it broke 13 months into its life. I paid Palm $125 to get a refurbished model which lasted only 7 months.

As much as I like my iPhone, and I like it a lot, I really miss Pocket Quicken!!!

My 2 cents.

****The "Nova"/"no va" story is a myth. Spanish speakers aren't that stupid.****

Sorry, but yes they really are that stupid.

I was a long time Palm user but never owned a Treo. My wife had a Treo and we both hated it. I would have been all over a Treo made like a Clie TH55.

Even with my Palm nostalgia, I'll never purchase another but I do hate to see them go out of business. They were once a great company but they rested when they should have been innovating. To this day, they haven't produced a PDA that matched Sony's Clie and there's no way they can keep up with Apple.

Dec 03, 08 - 12:14 pm Comment from: Predrag

It seems that they are still selling their Tungsten devices (the T|X, E and Z22). They came out in 2005 (over 3 years ago!!) and haven't changed since. What's more amazing is, they are charging $300 (!!???) for the T | X model, with 128Mb (that's Mega; not Giga), and SD slot (up to 2GB).

Compare with iPod Touch ($230) at 8GB, not to mention everything else...

I had several devices, starting with IBM's WorkPad (Palm III), HandSpring Visor, then Tungsten II... Software library was impressive at the time, and included a lot of stuff. Unfortunately, versions haven't changed in 4 years (for the most part), and neither have the devices... My Tungsten II is sitting on the desk, and my 2-year old is occasionally playing with it (there is some paint/drawing programme on it that I had downloaded years back; she enjoys doodling).

Palm is just completely out of touch. And the economy isn't helping...

Dec 03, 08 - 12:24 pm Comment from: ragarcia

As if the English speakers that developed the piece of shit vehicle that was the Nova were really that smart.

The truth in the story has nothing to do with stupidity, EVERYONE knows that Nova is in referrence to outer space. The "no va" referrence came to be as a result of the vehicle's lousy reliability.

Palm will survive if they work jointly with Google on an Android OS variant. Fuse Nova and Android together.

Make it work with Exchange and existing and new Google services. Google can offer similar mobileme services for free.

It's not just a sale of a cool looking smart phone. It's the applications and services that go along with the device that really count in the end. For instance, what if the iPhone did not have Google maps app or iTunes? Would it be as popular as it is now?

Dec 03, 08 - 12:30 pm Comment from: boyweho

Palm was a star at one time. If it goes Nova, then it will surely become a black hole.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_holes#Formation_and_evolution

I used to be a huge Palm fan, owning several models since the US Robotics Palm Pilot through finally to Treo 650. In the early days, Palm did many things right - keeping things simple and reliable, and thinking of ease of use. Jeff Hawkins was a visionary (well, at least until he came out with the Folio) At one point I was involved in developing for the Palm platform too. I was also a Palm shareholder but bailed out long ago.

but as time wore on, Palm dragged its feet. innovation stopped. Mac support was abysmal/non-existent - they never updated their buggy desktop & syncing software for many years, or for that matter the PDA firmware. Their solution for innovation to the future was adopting the Windows Mobile platform (ugh!). Other Palm licensees (Sony, Handspring, etc) tried to innovate where Palm wouldn't but they eventually went away.

For the 3 years I used my Treo 650 I actually I thought it was a great PDA. but it would sometimes crash and reboot upon receiving a call. sometimes upon receiving a voicemail. sometimes it would work for months. you could never be sure. It was great to be able to sync notes, Word/Excel documents, calendars, etc with it. That is, except when the syncing software crashed or trashed my data, or made me reinstall something or rebuild my data. I do not miss Palm Hotsync, or DocsToGo syncing, at all. good riddence from my Mac!

there were a lot of third party apps for the Treo, but they too stopped innovating. there's even one or two I still miss having on my iPhone. I look back now at some of the apps I thought were great and they seem oh-so 80's-ish now by comparison. meanwhile the iPhone already has a lot of great third party apps and huge forward potential.

The iPhone is far from perfect, but on the whole the platform is more usable, reliable, and most importantly built for the future. Sadly the Palm platform as we once knew it is long dead.

RIP, Palm. you will always have an important place in the history of personal electronics. but I'm much happier now as an iPhone owner.

p.s. someone mentioned Quicken - don't get me started on Intuit's crappy support of the Mac!!

The iPhone is a great device, but there are a few features that it doesn't do, that I need.

1. Two-way notes syncing. I still don't understand why Apple hasn't implemented this. Is it really that difficult? Having notes on your phone/PDA is way more useful if you can edit them, and have those edits synced back to your computer.

2. Edit Office docs. This isn't really Apple's problem, per se, unless there's a technical reason why a company like Dataviz couldn't offer a Documents To Go for iPhone.

3. Cut/Copy/Paste. While I don't use it all the time, I use it enough where I would miss it if I didn't have it.

Some others that I have no first-hand knowledge of, but if what other folks are complaining about are real issues:

1. Calendar colors not syncing from your computer. Having the ability to color-code your calendars loses a lot of usefulness if the colors aren't always the same, and always match what's on your computer.

2. One email sig for all accounts? That's less than useful. I can't be the only person who uses both personal and work email from their phone- my employer has their own standard for a signature, and I do not want to use the work sig for any personal accounts.

3. Custom Ring Tones- is it possible to add custom rings tones on a per-caller basis on an iPhone? And can it be done without having to buy ringtones from Apple? I find it useful to have a different ringtone for my most common callers so that I know who's calling without having to look at my phone.

Then there's the biggest reason that I don't switch to an iPhone- the cost of the monthly service. All of the big providers have roughly the same coverage in my area, but changing to AT&T;would *at least* double my monthly expense. We're talking over $1000 a year just to switch providers, not counting the cost of the phone itself. That's the biggest dealbreaker for me.

MacBill actually makes my point. The Palm Treo DOES have an extensive list of features. But they are useless if the device is buggy, crashes constantly, loses data, doesn't sync well and the features are clunky and poorly implemented.

Further, its not that I can't tinker with a device or work with it to get things to work... sometimes, its that I shouldn't have to and I don't want to. If I have to spend that amount of time and effort on it, then it has failed at what it is supposed to be for me in the first place: A convenient, time saving device.

Perhaps others will have had great experiences with the Treo, if so, good for them. For me, I will go back to a notebook and pen before I ever consider a Palm device again.

Lesson learned: Features are meaningless, usefulness is key.

Dec 03, 08 - 03:29 pm Comment from: twilightmoon

@MacBill: "#10. The Treo has a real keyboard. Sorry, but it's much easier & faster to type on a real keyboard than a virtual keyboard. I was clocked at 71 wpm on my Treo keyboard. Can't type that fast on an iPhone."


Good list, but I need to pick at you for this.

YOU may not be able to type 71 wpm on the iPhone but you can't say that it's not possible to type as fast or faster on the iPhone.

There's no difference between how fast you can type on a virtual and static keyboard other than practice.

Here's a review of a typing tutor type program for the iPhone:
http://www.148apps.com/reviews/typing-genius/

Anyone who is interested in improving their typing speed on the iPhone should check it out.

Other than carrier lock in, the rest of your issues with iPhone could potentially be fixed with a software update by Apple. When will they have copy and paste? MMS? Fix syncing issues with 3rd party apps and their own notes and calendar? No one knows, but certainly the potential is there.

Based on Palm's holiday revenues, it seems you are in the minority of people who need certain features of the Treo vs the ease of use of the iPhone.

It's a shame to see what was once an innovative and forward thinking company as Palm fall so far and so fast, but that's how it works in technology. You either innovate or you become a relic, and die. The latter is what is happening to Palm, rapidly.

Hopefully Apple will fix the software issues on your list and you're left with only the carrier lock-in (only an issue for some), and the typing speed issues (fixable with some practice).

By the way I'd dispute your "Sprint and Verizon have better coverage across the US, and way less dropped calls." The coverage is about the same between ATT and Verizon and way more with ATT than Sprint, and dropped calls is more of a regional thing, you may personally be in an area where Sprint or Verizon have better coverage, YMMV.

Dec 03, 08 - 03:40 pm Comment from: zmarc

@MacBill:

Fine list of features. Yet my mom would not care about a single one of them! All she wants is a device that's easy to use and does enough to meet her needs. That's an iPhone, and she loves hers. She emails, texts, surfs the web, makes and receives calls, plays games. If she had a Palm she'd only use it as a phone.

That's why iPhone is king, folks. Usability, not features.

I've had the palms, I've had the blackberry and the iPhone is going to rule them all. The app store will quickly add whatever the market wants. If it doesn't heck write the code yourself and add it.

Dec 03, 08 - 03:52 pm Comment from: twilightmoon

@Metryq: "I've read the possibly apocryphal story that the Chevy Nova would not sell in Spanish-speaking countries because "no va" means "it does not go.""

With respect to LordRobin: "The "Nova"/"no va" story is a myth. Spanish speakers aren't that stupid."

Snopes nails this myth:
http://www.snopes.com/business/misxlate/nova.asp

Bottom line is that it's completely and categorically false in every way. It's a made up story to prove a point, that doesn't hold up to the slightest bit of factual scrutiny.

With respect to hotinplayer: "Sorry, but yes they really are that stupid."

They may be that stupid, I wouldn't know because I am not one of them, but the story is still a myth.

Dec 03, 08 - 04:00 pm Comment from: twilightmoon

IONLYUSEOSX "It's not just a sale of a cool looking smart phone. It's the applications and services that go along with the device that really count in the end. For instance, what if the iPhone did not have Google maps app or iTunes? Would it be as popular as it is now?"

iTunes? Huge part of both the iPod and subsequently the iPhone's success. The ability to distribute content rapidly (for the iPhone think app store) and sync easily is a huge part of what makes the iPhone what it is, the Maps app is minor, however. Far more important is the email internet phone and iPod apps on the bottom row.

some comments in this site, SPECIALLY THE EDITOR, are plain stupid. I want to see him running a company like palm.

His love for apple makes him look like an idiot. I'm saying this based on this and other articles. The "MacDailyNews Take" should be abolished.

Palm's CEO should sell the company and give the money back to the shareholders.

@santiago - Why are you here? Reactionary comments like yours is what makes this site so funny and get people to come back again and again. You made my day. Thanks.

Dec 03, 08 - 06:10 pm Comment from: jfort

I am as big an Apple fan as most, but I am still carrying a Treo 700P. I have to have real voice dialing, TomTom and real security, like remote wipe. I peruse the app store everyday hoping. I've even bought about 15 apps, but I can't buy the iPhone I want so badly. I cannot remember the last time my Treo crashed, I carry extra batteries and SD cards and, as others have said, I can edit Office files. Damn, I wish an iPhone could do some of this stuff.

Dec 03, 08 - 08:42 pm Comment from: twilightmoon

jfort: "I cannot remember the last time my Treo crashed, I carry extra batteries and SD cards and, as others have said, I can edit Office files. Damn, I wish an iPhone could do some of this stuff."

I for one cannot say I've purchased any Treo 700P apps...

Extra battery? no problem there's multiple external solutions that you can hook your iPhone up to and recharge it. One of the better ones was recently listed on Daring Fireball:
http://daringfireball.net/2008/11/richard_solo_1800

For $70 you can fully recharge your 3G iPhone in about 2 hours, or 85% in about an hour.

So removable batteries are not an issue, except for the fact that they generally suck on small portable devices as they make them bulkier, more likely to pop open and an extra point of weakness and failure.

Plus did I mention iPod chargers are literally everywhere? Gas stations carry them. If your phone runs out of power, where do you get a charger? Best Buy *Might* have one that works with your phone... maybe. If you change phones however enjoy spending another 15 to 30 dollars to repurchase chargers.

SD cards? are you kidding me? are you saying you have more than 16GB in cards? iPhone comes with dramatically more memory than other phones out of the gate, and has wonderful syncing that allows you to actually use that for movies, and music and apps. What do you fill yours with? How much of a PITA is it? How often do you shift around the content on all those removable cards? Those add extra cost to your phone by the way, and the iPhone with 8GB built in is already $200.

And lastly "I can edit Office files." SHOW me something you've actually edited on your phone before I write you off as another Microsoft paid for troll.

I want to see a link, an actual file.

Dec 03, 08 - 08:42 pm Comment from: twilightmoon

Better yet, post a YouTube video of you editing an MS Office file on your phone.

I had a Palm Pilot, a Treo 650 and a Treo 700p. The Pilot was a good PDA, but I was carrying a cell phone, a PDA and a laptop. Something had to go, so I switched to the Treo 650. The 650 was a good PDA, but it was a terrible phone. It didn't have enough memory, the data speed was slooow, it crashed periodically when a phone call came in, but there were lot's of apps available and I had all of my info and investment in the platform. So, I got a 700p thinking that Palm had surely made improvements, it had more memory and faster data. I was wrong. The 700p was a total piece of crap! It crashed a lot, and I mean A LOT. It was almost as bad as the iPaq 3800 that I had briefly (I don't even want to get into how freaking awful that thing was). And to make things worse, I was on Sprint, and their bad coverage was steadily getting worse, and they kept screwing up my bill (6 months in a row!). I gave up. I don't usually buy first generation tech and I refuse to stand in a long line for the "privilege" of saying I got one first, but I went to the local mall the day that the iPhone came out, saw the line, went to dinner, and when I came back the line was gone, so I got an iPhone. I love it! It's great, not perfect, but far superior to any other smart phone that I've seen. There are features that I miss from my Treo (tethering), but none that I can't live without.

Wow, this is way longer than I meant it to be.

Also, I pay almost exactly the same amount of money for my AT&T;plan that I did for my Sprint plan. And the AT&T;service and coverage is much much better than Sprints ever was.