“Every July, 400 of the most powerful media and tech industry chieftains meet at investment banker Herb Allen’s conference in Sun Valley, Idaho, for what are usually convivial discussions of megatrends and megamergers. But this year, Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates III laid into Sony Chief Executive Howard Stringer, according to two sources, including one who witnessed the exchange in a private room,” Cliff Edwards, Peter Burrows, and Ronald Grover report for BusinessWeek.
“Gates argued that Sony’s new high-definition DVD standard, called Blu-ray, needed to be changed so it would work smoothly with personal computers running on Microsoft’s Windows operating system. Stringer and two lieutenants defended the technology, insisting Blu-ray would work fine in PCs,” Edwards, Burrows, and Grover report. “Yet Gates’s ire only grew. ‘There must be something much deeper going on,’ Stringer said later, according to another person who heard the comment.”
“Despite the backing of the PC industry’s two biggest titans [Microsoft and Intel], it looks as if HD DVD’s days are numbered,” Edwards, Burrows, and Grover report… Sony appears to have a critical mass of support for its [Blu-ray] standard… A major factor swaying these companies is Blu-ray’s massive capacity. Its disks will hold at least 50 gigabytes and perhaps 100 gigs or more. HD DVD will start at 15 gigs, and top out at 45. ‘We want a standard that’s going to be around for 10 or 15 years,’ says one studio exec… Why is so much vitriol spilling from behind closed doors over one tech standard? The shiny little disk that Gates and Stringer tangled over has the potential to alter the landscape of the entertainment and technology industries.”
Excellent full article that explains the whole Blu-ray vs. HD DVD “war” here.
Related articles:
China to develop own as-yet-unnamed DVD format; Blu-ray vs. HD DVD vs ? – October 07, 2005
Paramount’s decision gives Blu-ray slight lead over HD DVD in next gen DVD format war – October 04, 2005
Record set straight on Blu-ray Disc Association’s superior high definition format – September 29, 2005
Microsoft backs cheaper, less sophisticated, lower capacity HD DVD over Apple-backed Blu-ray format – September 27, 2005
Twentieth Century Fox joins Apple, Dell, HP, others to support Blu-ray Disc format – July 29, 2005
Poll shows Apple-backed Blu-ray preferred by consumers over HD DVD for next-gen DVD standard – July 14, 2005
Microsoft allies with Toshiba on HD-DVD vs. Blu-ray Disc backers Apple and Sony – June 27, 2005
Apple joins Blu-ray Disc Association Board of Directors – March 10, 2005
MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Gates blew it when he didn’t select Sony (must have been because Apple did . . .). The problem is that he selected the wrong option, but that’s not a surprise as this is the guy that brought us Bob.
I love this quote…
Microsoft’s criticism is that Blu-ray disks will be more expensive to manufacture and may be impossible to make in large volumes. Yet the technology’s supporters are convinced costs will be similar over the long term. “We don’t see any big cost difference, and we know a thing or two about volume manufacturing,” says Michael Dell, chairman of PC giant Dell.
Talk about an understatement. LOL!
MW: Society
Leave it to Bill to keep progress bogged down deep in the mire.
Go, Bill, Go!
Stringer should have told Gates to change Windows to work with Blu-ray. Any changes Gates wants are, no doubt, designed to try and extend his illegal monopoly.
ken:
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Even more funny (perhaps), Bill’s wife Melinda actually headed up the Bob project. Her overwhelming insight to the future of GUIs told him she was THE ONE.
Does anyone wonder why the address for the Redmond campus is ONE MICROSOFT WAY? (all caps intended for poetic emphasis)
“In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri.”
– Douglas Adams
Hmmm 15-45 gigs vs. 50-100 gigs. That Bill sure knows how to make a micro softie.
Seems obvious to me. Blu-ray devices use BD-J (Java) to run them. HD DVD will run M$ software. I am sure these chieftains know this.
Rah Rah; Apple’s winning, Microsoft’s losing. Can we get past the cheerleading and look at the actual implications of these technologies?
BluRay intends to limit or remove fair personal for your video conent. With Apple so firmly entrenched in this camp, won’t it be difficult for them to move forward with the concept of the digital living room? Microsoft’s idea of streaming video from a computer through the XBOX-as-set-top is exactly what lots of people are hoping Apple will produce.
With BluRay preventing any kind of “ripping”, that scenario is cut off at the knees, no?
Sounds as if Gates has had his media R&D department forging away on HD-DVD related hardware/software. Gates can smell the stench of irrelevance for all those products MS is planning to release for the home media market. Sony’s looks as if it will be able to forego a repeat of the Beta vs VHS loss it suffered.
Isn’t Bluray going to be using H264 standard for their content format? M$ have been trying to get their own propriety format VC-1 to be adopted for this open standard without success. Of course Apple have already got that to work.
It seems to be that M$ wants their technology to be implemented in the next generation DVDs and it looks like they are going to be locked out.
Streaming video is what really interests me. I wouldn’t mind having movies stored on a server (either at home or remotely), rather than having to have shelves of DVDs messing up the place. H264 seems ideal for this.
Ampar –
Apple’s is at ONE INFINITE LOOP. What’s your point?
It’s all about VC-1. HD DVD has it, Blu-Ray does not.
Guess who developed VC-1?….
Why it was Microsoft. Bill is getting the mad because folks don’t want to use his proprietary codec. Seems like the world is getting some spine in telling Gates to pound sand.
<< Why is so much vitriol spilling from behind closed doors over one tech standard? >>
It’s simple. Blu-Ray uses the industry standard H.264 compression standard. HD-DVD is built around Microsoft’s VC-1. Without HD-DVD, Microsoft can’t control content. This is another case of Microsoft losing the standards battle. xBox is supposed to control the living room using HD-DVD.
Microsoft was built by its ability to establish standards. Since the anti-trust trials, Microsoft has been unable to do so. Without control of industry standards, Microsoft can’t control the desktop.
This isn’t the end of Microsoft. And it isn’t the beginning of the end, it is the end of the beginning (with apologies to Winston Churchill).
PC Apologist–
It’s pretty clear that Ampar’s point is that Gate believes there should be
ONE Microsoft way for everything.
Compare that to Apple’s Infinite Loop.
Didn’t steve say that both bluray and hddvd will use h264 so its win win??
“Fifteen gigabytes should be enough for anybody”
He didn’t say it word for word but the same meaning comes across.
“It’s all about VC-1. HD DVD has it, Blu-Ray does not.”
As I understand it–and from the article–Blu-Ray will support VC-1 as well as H.264. Conversely, HD-DVD will only support VC-1.
Its all about XBox and PS3. Gates and emBalmer will not cede anything to Sony.
Quote from article:
“A Microsoft spokesman acknowledges that Gates and Stringer talked at the conference, but says things did not become “heated.” “
Just like Ballmer never threw his chair and said he would “fscking kill Google”
Nice boys, these Softies.
“Stringer should have told Gates to change Windows to work with Blu-ray.”
But that would force Longhorn/Vista to a late-2008 release date.
Nice to hear how visibly upset Gates has become. He insists on setting the hardware and software (co-dec) “standard”, not the other way around. It looks like Sony and other big entertainment content providers are going with Blu-Ray. Apple continues to lead, not follow, as the entertainment industry as a whole are adopting flexible standards independent of Micro$oft’s paths. I expect the final nail in the coffin to be set soon.
PC Apologist: Why do you stick around here? It’s clear you’re not a common troll, so there must be some reason. Is it out of sheer stubborness? Are you obsessed? It’s obvious you have little respect for the site or its readers, so why don’t you leave?
Get it through your head: THIS IS A @#$%IN’ MAC FAN SITE!! Of COURSE we’re all “rah-rah Mac”! Of COURSE we’re all “Microsoft sucks”! If you want unbiased news coverage, go to a general news site.
I’m so vain, I call myself Lord. And I wear green tights and dance around Sherwood forest.
Gates gets visibly upset pretty easily. He and Ballmer are very ‘sympatico’ in that regard.
Pertinent quotes from the article:
“A major factor swaying these companies is Blu-ray’s massive capacity. Its disks will hold at least 50 gigabytes and perhaps 100 gigs or more. HD DVD will start at 15 gigs, and top out at 45. “We want a standard that’s going to be around for 10 or 15 years,” says one studio exec.”
First, if each BluRay layer can hold 25Gbs, and a triple layer disk is all that’s reasonable to expect they can make (a] because HD-DVD tops out at 3 layers, and b] BluRay group hasn’t even made a dual layer version yet that can be manufactured), then the most anyone should expect from BluRay is 75Gbs. Nice, but a far cry from “100 gigs or more”.
Second, what standard is realistically going to be around for a decade or more in the climate of technological change that we live in today? It’s just plain stooped to think BluRay, in any from we recognize now, will be on top in 2015. By that time, video streaming or high capacity, non-volatile flash memory (of just the technologies that we can predict) will make optical disks look quaint.
“Sony’s people have “bet the entire future on this,” says analyst Michael Pachter of Wedbush Morgan Securities. “It’s too important for them to lose, so they will do everything they can to win.””
That’s what this is really all about. FUD in the service of one side’s bottom line, not a rational accounting about which technology actually makes more sense – economically and technologically – to invest in.
As for why BluRay seems to have so many adherents besides the principals:
“In July, Sony decided to refine the Blu-ray standard in a way that would have far-reaching implications … Sony wanted to win the support of Twentieth Century Fox Film Studios, long Hollywood’s leading advocate for tough anti-piracy measures. So Sony agreed to add safeguards developed for Fox by San Francisco’s Cryptography Research, which could prevent Blu-ray movies from being ripped to a computer’s hard drive. … Fox execs say their decision became a no-brainer, because of the extra protection …”
This probably why Apple is on board too. They likely figured it was a good strategy to lick these studios’ boots in any way possible when it came to DRM, in order to get access to their content for the ‘iVideo Future’ Jobs wanted. In fact, a disk that made streaming more difficult dovetails nicely with Apple wanting to establish an online video download business (“Sure it may take a while to download content, but at least you can stream it from your hard drive!”).
With Universal’s recent decision to go it’s own way with downloadable content (and the probablility that the other studios will do the same), all of the toadying to them was for naught in Apple’s case. But the fact that BluRay disks will really lock down the content was and is a huge incentive for the rest of the industry – the economics of actually making the thing be damned. After all – they can always pass along the costs (not to mention the hassle) to us law-abiding customers. Right?
I’ve said it a milllion times, but forgive me – for the consumer, and for producers who realize that optical disks probably won’t be the ‘consumer’s choice’ for decade, HD-DVD makes MUCH more economic sense. It’s a tenth of the cost to produce, it has higher capacity versions that aren’t just ‘vapor’, and – since a 2+ hour HD movie will fit comfortably on a 15GB disk – the dual/triple layer versions will also hold all the content any HighDef release will ever need.
They’re both going to DIE!!! The trend is for video on demand. Just like the cd will die soon. Neither will take off.
LordRobin, I, for one, am not bothered by PC Apologist. Why do you let him/her bother you.
I could even see myself saying “Rah Rah; Apple’s winning, Microsoft’s losing. Can we get past the cheerleading and look at the actual implications of these technologies?”
I would prefer Blu-Ray to win… if only because of its capacity and nothing else.
HD-DVD doesn’t offer enough capacity above existing discs to really be considered a serious contender for the next 10-15 years, especially for computing needs.
I was caught thinking about the leap from floppies to CD, and then from CD to DVD. Do we really want to make an incremental leap now when we can make a larger leap instead?
Floppy (is it really work mentioning at all???) 1.4Mb
CD – 700Mb = ~450 floppies
DVD – 4.7/8.5Gb = ~7-12 CDs
New contenders:
HD-DVD 15/30Gb = ~4-7 DVDs
or
Blu-Ray 50-100Gb = ~10-20 DVDs
(I hope I’m right on the numbers… I was kinda averaging it out, but it’ll be roughly correct.)
This is a classic management vs engineers situation.
Here we have some obviously brilliant engineers on both camps designing and building the next generation of optical storage, both with differing points of view (one is compatibility/low-cost, one is higher storage). Clearly, both sides have succeeded in accomplishing their goals.
However, now it’s down to a management decision as to which will end up being used in the marketplace.
To the losers:
“I see only B and C players here… “
(note that whilst Sony lost out with Betamax, my understanding is that the technology wasn’t totally wasted – I heard the Video8 format was based upon it, albeit shrunk down)
Hey PCApologista, Not to bash MS too badly, but please, give me a break. BlueRay intends to reduce fair use rights? HA HA! MS has all but promised the major studios that their DRM will put the wraps on any fair use. MS wants the same thing the studios do, a rental model for EVERYTHING, insuring a constant revenue/profit stream that will continue forever without ever having to do another once of work.
The technology itself on either side doesn’t seek to limit anybodies fair use. That comes from the twinAAs, RIAA and MIAA, with a healthy dose from BSA (Business Software Alliance, not boy scouts) and of course MS.
Everyone, this is why MS is supporting HD-DVD. Microsoft had to use a HD-DVD drive in there Xbox360 because it would otherwise mean licensing Sonys Blue-Ray. Either Sony is asking too much, or MS just doesn’t want to use Blue-Ray. So they are stuck with HD-DVD on their Xboxes, and they want the technology they use there to go into PCs. Reason being is so that people buying Xboxes can use them to play DVD movies in the future. But if Blue-Ray wins, all the people have are gaming machines, not home entertainment systems like MS wants. This will force them out of the living room an the ability to get mass amount of people onto their platform, giving Sony the win in the living room.
Odessey,
The original specs for BluRay is for 25 gigs per layer which will be doubled in a second generation. Therefore dual layered discs can reach 100 gigs when the higher density format is employed.
I bet most people here don’t care what media is used for movies, it’s the ability to write to a disc to store data that is at issue for PC users. I’d rather have a single layered 25 gig disc to write to than a 15 gig one. Makes it easier to back up data.
As for the cost issue – I think we all expect to be gouged severely for HD DVDs whatever format. That’s the nature of the entertainment industry. They’re losing sales now because a lot of people are ripping DVD’s they rent instead of buying them.
This may be a naive question, but can someone explain to me why we should embrace a new DVD technology? Does this mean all of my DVDs will be outdated in a couple of years and I have to buy new movies all over again? If so, I don’t know what the advantage is here. Can you help me out?
All nextgen DVD format players will be backward compatible.
You will not need to buy new DVDs…
Unless you want the re-released higher quality DVDs when they come out…the new Blu-Ray (HD) DVD’s will have greater storage and the movies will carry higher quality image, more extras, etc…
But no, your DVDs won’t become worthless coasters, if thats what you are asking. You should have no problem playing them in the NEW DVD players that are coming.
You will, however, need to get a new DVD player in order to read this new format…
TechnoGeek,
The advantage is that your home theater will now rival that of a regular movie theater.
If you usually take your family to the movie theater, now you can get the same experience at home (some would say better depending on your set-up), and save a ton of cash through the course of a year.
I also expect the bonus features on hi-def DVDs to be quite impressive since the studios are anxious to have us buy our movie collections over again.
Micro$oftopoly has mapped out a future that attaches DRM to EVERYTHING from a text document to a movie clip to music to a picture off of your own camera. The DRM employed would be a Microsoft Proprietary technology, of course. Just like the endless FUD directed toward iTunes & the iPod, the getting HD-DVD to market is all about M$ and money. Lots of money.
Have you seen Hi-Def? Makes your standard DVD look lame. In simpler terms, it’s like comparing a 2 Megapixel digicam to a 350k one. Six times the pixels per image.
Gates blew it when he didn’t select Sony (must have been because Apple did . . .).
—
Um… they’re not really ‘down’ with Sony… Playstation?
HD DVD is important to Microsoft because of that XBOX 360. If it cannot secure the standard, then their game console becomes the odd man out.
Toshiba has a working prototype of HD-DVD, while Sony’s is still vaporware. What’s happening here?
http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2005/10/03/toshiba_notebook_hd-dvd-drive/
http://www.infoworld.com/article/05/10/04/HNprototypessquareoff_1.html?source=rss&url=http://www.infoworld.com/article/05/10/04/HNprototypessquareoff_1.html
"note that whilst Sony lost out with Betamax, my understanding is that the technology wasn’t totally wasted – I heard the Video8 format was based upon it, albeit shrunk down"
Yes, the innards of a Hi-8 machine look familiar if you’ve seen the inside of a Beta deck. The Beta was really a shrunken Sony U-Matic transport itself.
It was about 1981 when the Broadcasters started noticing small, field portable video recorders based on consumer tape transports. The fact that Beta’s image quality looked much better than VHS was completely lost on consumers but was the most important aspect of the tape format battle for broadcasters – the Beta transport won the contest and the broadcast VHS formats evaporated within two years.
The Panasonic camp, not one to shy away from defeat, made several valiant attempts through the years to unseat Sony from the top spot on the broadcast radar screen, and not just in the Beta format. None of the efforts have resulted in much traction for Panasonic.
Since that time, Beta tape has been with us in the post production and broadcast world big time. Everyone through the 80’s and 90’s shot everything in the field on a Beta tape of some sort. Until the introduction of DV in 1997, if you were serious, you shot on Beta. With DV came a good alternative for lower end production, but still not up to par with Beta (Digital Beta, by that time actually).
There were lots of support peripherals. The Betacart system was a rack of Betacam decks with a robotic tape library attached which played TV spots and news inserts for almost every TV station on the planet for many years. Every piece of peripheral equipment from any manufacturer or competitive VTR system had a Betacam emulation mode. Beta was, and still is, king. Funny, though, I can still grab a tape intended for a Digital Beta deck and use it in my home Betamax.
The progression is sort of like this for Beta format machines:
1976 – Consumer Betamax
1981 – Betacam (oxide tape, component analog)
1986 – Betacam SP (metal tape, higher quality analog recording)
1993 – Digital Betacam (DCT coding, 88 Mbps digital component)
1996 – Betacam SX (MPEG-2, 18Mbps for news with a hard drive inside)
1997 – HDCAM (DCT coding, 144Mbps, 9:1 compression for HDTV)
2002 – IMX (MPEG-2, 50 Mbps, a better Betacam SX)
2004 – HDCAM-SR (MPEG-4, 600Mbps, 2.7:1 compression for HDTV, 16 audio tracks)
I would also like to add.. (not to fight) but to add that China is coming out with something too…..
Perhaps this could mean someting? But i feel it is hollywood and the movie industry that will make this product.. because there the tv, entertainment system et al is used more frequently than a computer..
Steve catered to the music industry he flooded the market with ipods and then swayed the music industry to a sour deal… (that will change when newer contracts are signed).
To win there needs to be a steve-jobs like play.. and i feel that its going to be bluray since it has the backing of movie studios and also apple.. which is HD Happy.. i believe it was SJ who said this is the year of the HD?
I would also like to say hi to my two bestest best friends who i see in these posts
Odessey67 and Road Warrior.
Greetings!
I am waiting for Hollywood to make a good movie.
After Hollywood gets around to making a good movie, then I might consider buying it.
Music Label Executive -ANON: I stopped waiting for the music industry to release a good record. Nothing worth buying since the late 60’s. I am cheering for your industry’s rapid demise.
Maybe you can get a job at Walmart?