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Brace yourselves Hooksett. MDN readership is on the case.

Dec 11, 08 - 12:07 pm Comment from: Gregg Thurman

The purchase had already been made. It included far more than just 10 MacBooks. David Pearl, the technology Volunteer, is just woofing in order that he looks like he is actually reviewing the purchase. He is re-enforcing that he is fiscally responsible, a watchdog of tax payer monies as it were.

That's what volunteers with political aspirations do.

The real question is, why the heck do 1st and 2nd graders need laptops?!

My guess is they bring the computers to the students rather than the students to the computers probably using this: http://www.apple.com/education/k12/mobilelabs/bretford/

Dec 11, 08 - 12:19 pm Comment from: silverwarloc

@Tucker:

You would be amased at what those 1st and 2nd graders can do with a Macintosh. I bought my girls their first iMacs when they were 5 years old. Now, that they are in their teens...they could run around me in their knowledge of the Mac.

"Please go there and offer polite, level-headed information regarding why Macs are the best choice for schools."

I just wanted to take a moment to applaud MDN's take. MDN is often a shrill and uncritical advocate of all things Apple. I think the final MDN comments are right on the money. There is no need to overpraise the Mac or Apple. The truth will more than suffice.

Bravo MDN! You got it exactly right.

We're doomed. There are just too many Joe Randoms out there. Human evolution is in reverse.

As a part of the Six Sigma we had replaced a component in the injected mold production that cost a lot less, that the disposal of the waste cost 150% more old raw material, so we are spending a lot more to produce the same body part. (of course, we are going back to the old material).

That is exactly what happens in schools and enterprise, they buy "cheaper" dell and HP computers that cost a lot more to keep them working and to get support for it.

Dec 11, 08 - 01:21 pm Comment from: HolyMackerel

I have one million words for this volunteer: Windows Virus.

Get a Mac, Get a teacher back, who doesn't spend half his/her life troubleshooting PCs and wiping hard drives each term.

Dec 11, 08 - 01:32 pm Comment from: Geo B

The other point to drive home is the case of the substitute teacher that was jailed after the Windows PC in the classroom was nailed with spyware and started displaying p*rn through no fault of her own. Not going to happen on Macs.

My kids started on a Mac at that age and use the machine productively - there is plenty 1st and 2nd graders can do on a computer (especially a Mac running OS X that they can't admin and therefore aren't likely to break).

Dec 11, 08 - 01:35 pm Comment from: Mr. Peabody

The whole[entire] world doesn't revolve around Windows, or even Windows and Mac.

Someone should remind them that they could also use Linux and have a plethora of UI options, if any of them had any real cajunas they'd at least entertain the idea of using Unix with Solaris UI. Yeah, Linux and Unix are expensive to setup, but total cost of operation should help to level that out over several years. And with so many Open source applications available across all platforms they should be able to very cost effectively provide:
- word processing
- spread sheet
- photo editing
- page layout
and etc.

On thing's for sure, Windows should be the absolute very last option, on principle alone, if not on fact.

Laptops for 1st & 2nd graders?!?!?!?!

I was lucky to be able get 'Big Chief Tablet' and a supply of over-sized #2 pencils in the first grade... and it's also when I learned to eat dirt. I didn't get my first computer (an Amiga 500) until college.

Elementary students don't *need* laptops. Let em wait 'til middle school or High School.

Flibbity-floo...

Dec 11, 08 - 01:50 pm Comment from: Chair Dodger

I work in IT for a school district that is switching from Mac to PC due to a Technology Director that is clueless and a Superintendent that's worse. Add to that loss of revenue and the subsequent cutbacks, it's only a matter of time. The schools and students will ultimately suffer and the taxpayers will get less for their money. I see it, the teachers (mostly) see it, but the ones in power don't understand value, only the numbers.

Shame.

Dec 11, 08 - 02:14 pm Comment from: 84 Mac Guy

After reading the comments in the Union Leader I am surprised at how many stupid people inhabit NH. I get the impression that many of the local folks would prefer their kids learn in a setting equivalent to "Little House on the Prairie." That what America needs, students totally unprepared for technology.

Let's hope the smart people prevail in Hooksett.

eh, screw all that - Joe Random is right. Why even have laptops? Give the kids crayons and colored paper and let them use their imagination to imagine they have laptops - total cost = $100 for EVERY kid to have it - no sharing needed. Of course that's not the Crayola Deluxe 128 piece package - but the generic brand 8 color pack. Then again - when these uneducated kids are druggies or strippers or locked up - it may cost the state even more money than if they properly educated them on the most advanced platform.
David Pearl = Joe Random = Joe 'six-pack'

Students need exposure to technology and the opportunity to use that technology. Certainly Macs are easier to use and don't experience problems with viruses/malware, etc. The computers will not and should not replace the skills of an experienced, dedicated teacher. Schools waste a lot more money than this on trivial crap that benefit no one.

Dec 11, 08 - 03:04 pm Comment from: Cubert

Hey, those kids don't need pencils either - they cost too much. Just give them a pin to prick their fingers so they can write in blood - it's free!

Dec 11, 08 - 03:16 pm Comment from: Brulek

@MDN

i doubt any of you have ever worked in a school and educated children so perhaps you should keep your profound ignorance to yourself. Just because you've been to school don't make the assumption you understand the view from the other side of the desk.

Dec 11, 08 - 03:16 pm Comment from: Cubert

Over 200,000 Winblows viruses = over 200,000 reasons to not buy PC's.

Dec 11, 08 - 03:29 pm Comment from: Brulek

back to the point

the college I work for recently went through the same process of evaluating HP notebooks and white macbooks.

Until you've been there, done that and dealt with the (amazingly!) complex issues involved in giving students and staff computers and the intractability of the some of the parties involved (apple, staff, some students), you never realize what a truly difficult situation it can be. Exisiting infrastructure issues aside, there also the issues of software: markbooks, reporting software, faculty specific software that doesn't run on a mac, and which there is no apple equivalent or the apple version is laughable. Sure you can run it on a mac, but not without a windows license, which in itself raises the cost of a mac significantly and is a very big mark against it (pun intended). Given the minimal actual hardware quality difference in a mac and a HP, why would anybody want to run windows on a mac when the HP is about $500 cheaper and doesn't require buying a windows license, as does the mac.

So while its easy to sit up in an ivory tower of smug, and spout uninformed nonsence about TCO, in reality is never that simple. And TCO is only one of a host of parameters. You're kidding yourself too if you think OSX works perfectly in a heterogenous workplace like a school. Try synchronizing data and managing user profiles and so forth without buying an apple server, which also adds signifcantly to the cost, particularly if you already have windows servers.

Problem with the layer of smug surrounding the ivory tower: often it obscures the clear view on the ground.

Dec 11, 08 - 04:15 pm Comment from: 84 Mac Guy

This is just a wild-ass guess, but I think Brulek may be a Windows IT guy. Even without reading his comments, the trail of his knuckle prints on the ground behind him gives him away.

Dec 11, 08 - 04:40 pm Comment from: Mac-nugget

My 5 year old uses my wives brand new MacBoook. If it was Windows, he would not even be interested because of the inherit difficulty for a 5 year old to get around the Windows UI. With the Mac, he has access to all the software from the dock, and more importantly, he doesn't need to go to the start button to shut it down.

Exactly how many wives do you have? And why only one MacBook for all of them?

Yeah, Mac-nugget, with multiple wives, I wasn't sure whether to envy you or pity you. :D

MW: Groups... Say no more!

Dec 11, 08 - 05:38 pm Comment from: Brulek

@84 mac guy

no, dumbass, I am NOT a windows advocate. I am writing this on a mac. Problem is, I have the capacity for rational thought and am NOT one eye blind to everything but osx. The point I was making was that no decision like this one is as simplistic as MDN and you seem to think it is. Far from it.

For example: Geometer's Sketchpad is an excellent teaching product for mathematics. It is widely used in my college. As far as I know, there is no apple equivalent, and to run it on a non-windows machine, I would have to do some additional work or get some additional software. Now multiply this effort by 650 for every student that would use it and factor that into the TCO. Now are you starting to get an idea of the size of this decision. And that is only ONE peice of software. Now consider each faculty has software along these lines...so you knuckle dragging dumbass, wise up fool.

@Brulek

I don't think name calling is going to win you any favours here but I do have to agree. I have worked in a dual platform district for the past 9+ years and am still wondering why we have apple computers. The initial cost on macs is 50% more than for an equivalent PC from our existing vendor. We have 5 years hardware warranty on the PC for an extra $50 versus only a one year warranty on the mac. There is no desire to spend $10 on the AppleCare plan. Our hardware repair techs are certified to repair both Apple and PC computers so we don't have to ship them out. The difference is we get reimbursed time to do the PC repairs compared to nothing from Apple

As for the time that is spent on software related issues it is not even close. Using netrestore on a gigabyte network it takes at least 8-10 hours to deploy an image to a lab of 30 computers. The average Mac image is about 16 GB. I have never had a windows over 10GB. Time to image an entire windows based lab is less than two hours.

For me, the sound financial decision is on the windows based PCs. We rarley get viruses on the windows side and we have even had viruses on the mac side. For those companies and schools that are still getting viruses, they obvioulsy don't have an IT staff that knows how to keep people out of trouble.

Dec 11, 08 - 07:40 pm Comment from: Brulek

@SchoolItGuy

Name calling: he called me a knuckle dragger first!

Yes, we use windows machines and likewise, never had any virus problems. And ditto with the image time. Mac's, no, osx is a great product, but for a school environment, it has a looooong way to go. I was one of the devil's advocate for using mac's in the decision process we went through but, very quickly, you realize that windows, though it pains me to say it, was a better choice. Software is the real killer for osx. While iLife is great and iWork cost effective, it isn't even close to enough. Even little stuff like having to BUY divx-vga cables for data projectors swayed the choice against a mac (you used to get them with the computer- not now). The real killer was the notion of buying windows licenses for macs to run windows apps. If i have to run windows apps (which is very unavoidable), then a computer thats $500 cheaper with a windows license already is much more economically effective than a dual boot mac (even considering iLife) in this respect. Simple as that. It's a shame it is that way, but it is. If apple dropped the price of macbooks $500 then it might be a different story. But they love charging for their way overpriced hardware. If it were possible to make it work in this situation, I'd go for linux on notebooks.

It's funny how fanboys spout the same nonsence, like a mantra they barely understand, rather than seeking to understand how it really is. Then when you tell them, they don't want to hear it and start calling you a knuckle dragger.

Lets get some facts straight.

As of 4.03 Sketchpad is available for OS X.
http://www.dynamicgeometry.com/Technical_Support/FAQ/Installation_and_Compatibility/Mac_OS_X.html

Images sizes are up to the school district and a 16 GB Mac OS X image is totally subjective. I work with one of the largest Mac schools systems in the World and there 10.5 image is 9.5 GB.
Network multicast restore times is a matter of bits over a wire.

Dec 11, 08 - 08:51 pm Comment from: Bitjockey

There's no one solution that's right for every situation. Hardware's function is to run software. If the software you need only runs under Solaris or Windows, that's what you'll need to buy and support.

Dec 11, 08 - 09:05 pm Comment from: 84 Mac Guy

Boys, boys, boys...if we are not name calling, then this ain't America!

Mr. Brulek, sorry for the knuckle comment and calling me a dumbass if fine. Don't we all get a little too sensitive around here sometimes.

But onto business. My point is that when you are pushing the envelope, you will not have everything that the safe choice offers. 3.5 years ago I set up a law office with all Macs and Apple server software. 99% of the lawyers I came across said I was nuts. No WordPerfect, no TimeSlips, no legal software.

Well today I can say:
- No viruses in 3.5 years on any machine in our office.
- No downtime due to viruses, network issues, etc.
- IT costs less than 1/10 of what they are for comparible offices running a Windows server.
- Innovative and more efficient approaches to certain tasks where equivalent software is not available on the Mac platform.

Furthermore, we can now do things that most other small law firms do not do because they can't, don't know how on their PCs, or cannot invest the time to figure out how to do them on a PC.

So, you are probably right in saying that Windows machines are a good choice with lots of software and everything a school district might need to allow computers in the schools. But sometimes organizations, even government institutions, want to get to the future before most of the populace does. I suspect the students in those school districts will be better off because of it.

you guys know this already but almost every "hard core" windows techie i have explained macs to said they were "scary" because they were "too easy to use."

one guy even said "macs should not exist" meaning they are bad for the industry.

Dec 12, 08 - 04:50 am Comment from: Derek in Milan

When I was a boy, we didnt have computers at all.
We had whips.

We arrived at school at 4 am and we were then whipped until we bled, and then we were sprayed with ice cold salt water to toughen us up and help the wounds.

We learned to read by the age of 5 and if you couldnt read the entire Bible by age 6, you were stoned to death by angry parents.

Computers? We used to DREAM of computers.

We had one abacus shared between 4000 children and when it was time to do calculations, hundreds were crushed to death in the fighting to use the abacus.

At lunch time we had stale bread and water, and for a treat, a spoonful of salt.

After lunch we were whipped again, and then forced to run 20 miles barefoot over rocks.

Kids these days are spoiled.

Dec 12, 08 - 04:51 am Comment from: Derek in Milan

Apologies to M. Python......

@School IT Guy


"We rarley get viruses on the windows side
and we have even had
viruses on the mac side."
</pre>

Please share with the world the name of the "viruses on the mac side"....

We are waiting...

It was, of all things, the Word W97M virus that infects the normal.dat. The problem was that it used a network share to spread. It took pretty much a whole day to clean up. Not that that particular virus is bad, however, it is a pain.
I have used Apple computers ever since I have started here and I still don't understand how mac advocates can say they are easier to use and require less time to look after. I think i said before that schools that have PCs in our district require less tech time than schools that have Macs.

I worked 20 years in IT and the last two years was studying design where we used Macs. I've been a Mac owner for 5 years and have five in my home and no Windows boxes (besides Parallels on my iMac which I use once a week to convert a Publisher file to a PDF).

Like Brulek and School IT guy, I am pragmatic. In many environments, especially large ones and schools included, Windows is still (currently) the better option, as they both well explained.

But in other environments, particularly smaller ones like 84 Mac Guy's law office, the Macs are certainly a genuine contender - provided you can find the software alternatives.

Unfortunately many people thinks Macs work perfectly because theirs works fine at home or in their small business.

I think the big problem is Apple hasn't done enough to stimulate application development in the enterprise and education markets.

All this changes in the future though as more software applications go online.

Maybe we should be spending our time sending our e-mails to the software developers who create school-related software and try to coax them to make Mac OS X versions of their products.

Likewise, Macintosh versions of law, medical, office, and retail sales software. It's sad to see a Mac dealer use Windows to process a sale. Fortunately, we don't see it very often, but you get the idea. If we could point our energies in the right direction, who know what we can accomplish.