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All this negative talk about Vista is interesting-- almost the inverse of what happened to OS X and Apple in the media around 2000/2001. As momentum built in favor of OS X, Vista's criticisms seem to be growing.

I've heard reports Vista may not be out until June 2007. If they push Vista out early with all of the bugs people are finding in Beta 2 they will hurt themselves in further and Vista could be the biggest Operating System failure next to OS2 from IBM.

Leopard will probably not show up until Q2 2007, given the late WWDC demo. I wonder if it's better for Leopard to come out before or after Vista. It probably won't matter in the long run.

Amen to that! You can buy a cheaper computer than a Mac, but you can't buy a better one!

Good to see. The mainstream media have a duty to inform the ignorant masses that there is a choice of platforms, rather than just drooling over Vista's "innovations".

My favorite quote from the story:

"I have no problem with Microsoft copying Apple's or any other company's best interface designs. We all win when that happens, and I wish Apple would steal the best things Microsoft does right back. What's really strange is when a company lifts good ideas and makes them worse, not better."

Amen.

Here's the list:

20. Minimum video system requirements are more like maximum.
19. Aero stratification will cause businesses woe.
18. User Account Controls $#^%!~\!!!.
17. Two words: Secure Desktop.
16. No way to access the Administrator account in Vista Beta 2.
15. Some first-blush networking peeves.
14. Windows peer networking is still balky.
13. Network settings user experience went backwards.
12. Too many Network Control Panel applets, wizards and dialogs.
11. Display settings have changed for no apparently good reason.
10. Where are the file menus?
9. Windows Defender Beta 2 is buggy.
8. Problems without solutions.
7. Lack of Windows Sidebar Gadgets.
6. Media Center isn't all there and falls flat.
5. Faulty assumption on the Start Menu.
4. Installation takes forever.
3. Version control.
2. Price.
1. Little originality, sometimes with a loss of elegance.

You'll need to click through 13 pages of advertisements to get the details.

Leopard will ship no later than November '06, and probably more like October.

"...lifts good ideas and makes them worse, not better."

they did this with their version of Expose, by making it apparently less efficient to manage multiple open windows.

While OS X becomes better with each version, Windows seems more cluttered. Do you think?

I'm glad to see that MS is not able to copy OS X. By the time Vista is finally released, Apple will be hard at work on 10.6.

Reading the full 20 points made my eyes bleed . . . . 750 million blue screens . . . HA

"After more than 15 years reviewing Windows operating systems, I didn't just suddenly begin hating Microsoft or Windows. (Although I have to admit, OS X is looking better and better of late.)" ...BUT THEN -> "Windows Vista has plenty of good aspects to recommend it. In a future article, Computerworld will make plain the many good things about Windows Vista. When the product ships, we'll also make some final recommendations on the new operating system."

Such a blatantly tacked-on-by-the-editor closing statement, as is typical in all PC rags. They can seemingly never end on a "Mac OS X is just plain better, period." note.

Why must they always take the cowards way out? Are they just afraid of a torrent of MicroWeenie flames? Or is it that they are a "PC" rag and must always cater to their PC advertisers and consumers? Well, the Mac is a "PC" so long as that stands for Personal Computer and not Impersonal Computer. If a "PC" running Linux or Solaris is still a "PC", than a Mac is too.

Switching to Intel has done wonders for our sheer ability to be able to be lumped in with the rest of them in terms of being reviewed and compared directly without that fuzzy, awkward caveat about the processors being different.

This is a great time to be a Mac fan...long live Vista! :D

MDN Magic Word: "enough" as in "Computer users have had enough of the arrogant and unearned Windows hegemony."

MDN Magic Word: (sssshhh, quiet please) "appear", as in, "A better Windows will 'appear' when hades gets as cold as antarctica's penguins in July (some of y'all boys might have to think on that one).

An acquaintance refused to get his daughter an iPod because he hates Apple so much - for this kind, they will continue to buy M$ junque... hopeless.

When Jobs is ready to release Leopard to the masses, he should bypass MacWorld Expo this time around and buy a prime time hour on ABC (Disney). Nobody but industry insiders and Mac enthusiast get Steve' RDF treatment at the Expo. Advertise the big event and launch OS X 10.5 to the great unwashed on TV. I bet you'd get a lot of curious viewers wanting to see this guy "Steve Jobs" who they've read and heard about.

Good investment.

But Tiger won't even be out until 2007 (if you believe Apple can do it).

Vista is out (public) now!

So don't go comparing Vista to Apple's vaporware. Your head has to be REALLY buried in the sand not to realize that IF Tiger ever ships, Vista already does most of what Tiger will do--and Vista is NOT as unfriendly as people say, not once you get over yourself and accept that MS knows what they are doing.

MDN: "Another great review for Microsoft's latest bloated mess, er... Windows Albatross, sorry..."

Mal (Serenity): "Way I remember it, albatross was a ship's good luck, 'til some idiot killed it."

But Tiger won't even be out until 2007 (if you believe Apple can do it).

Might I just point out (from my machine running Tiger) that it's been out for a year and change? So yeah, I think they might pull it off.

Leopard might be what you mean - but the reviewer (right or wrong) was comparing Vista and Tiger. Might want to calm the vitriol down a bit. Helps accuracy.

Dunce of the year award to Microsoft, the kid who copies answers to the test from the class genius and still manages to fail.

Pathetic!

Spark, that's a great idea. Send it to Apple.

Exqueeze me - You Dork!

Tiger is out NOW - Leopard is the next version of OSX!

Twat

Heh heh, Exqueese me. pwned. Heh heh.

Tiger, OS 10.4, has been out for almost one year. I think you meant to say Leopard, which is scheduled to be released in either Q4 2006 or Q1 2007. Either way, I would be careful with the vaporware tag. Apple has not missed a shipping deadline for their OS in about 5 years. Whereas Microsoft can't seem to do anything right. Honestly, what has Microsoft been doing for the last five years other than the xBox 360 and Windows XP?

Pookiebear,

"Computer users have had enough of the arrogant and unearned Windows hegemony"

I wish that were true, but I don't think it is.

They will line up like sheep, they will buy it

with a smile, and they will think it's great.

They are good little slaves.

Did you see the version comparison chart? You actually have to purchase the $700 "Windows Vista Ultimate" in order to get "Windows DVD Maker"!

Windows users love taking it up the ass, don't they?

>>"But Tiger won't even be out until 2007 (if you believe Apple can do it).

Vista is out (public) now!

So don't go comparing Vista to Apple's vaporware. Your head has to be REALLY buried in the sand not to realize that IF Tiger ever ships, Vista already does most of what Tiger will do--and Vista is NOT as unfriendly as people say, not once you get over yourself and accept that MS knows what they are doing."<<

Hilarious!

Your head has to be REALLY buried in the sand if you:

1. Think Tiger hasn't been shipping and being used by delighted Mac users for over a year+.
2. Think Apple will not be able to get (Leopard) out by 2007. (Hello?? It's Microsoft that can't seem to ship Vista).
3. Thinks Vista (still beta/vaporware mind you!) does "most of what Tiger (does)" - and has been doing!... let alone "most of what (Leopard) will do". NOTE WELL: Vista CAN'T ship or be finalized until WWDC, when Apple introduces the remaining set of features for Leopard that Microsoft will hamfistedly try to ape as quickly as it can (i.e. another year delay).
4. Thinks that Vista is not unfriendly.
5. Thinks that "MS knows what they are doing"!

Keep typing! This is fun!

Exqueese me,

Go take your meds. The voices are getting too

loud.

Yeah Spark, excellent idea. And so simple. Email it to Apple.

Second on "Spark's" idea.

It won't be anything Apple does that will make users switch it'll all be down to M$. Eventually many other people will see the light like I did. When you make that switch you are gone for good and there's absolutley no going back. You just realise what a friggin idiot you've been all this time...

Exqueeze me.....you made my day. Not only did you verify that Windows fans are complete morons with you lack of knowledge but to say that MS "Knows what they are doing" is freaking hilarious.


ROTLMAO!!!!!!

Bill Gates: Guys, we need a feature like Apple's "Expose".

Programmer: OK boss. How about we pull up all the active apps and just stack them together so that the user has to "again" scroll through them to see them. Cool, don't you think?

Bill Gates: Brilliant.

Still ROTFLMAO at Exqueese me. I bet he thinks using the name "Exqueese me" is most clever too.

I reckon there's a new kind of virus...

It's deep inside Microsoft, and its affecting its programmers. It's the only possible reason why VISTA is turning into such a mess after 5 years of work.

Either that or they're working for Apple

Even if Leopard comes out before Vista, MS is too much of bloated beached whale to react to new features. Look at how long its taking for Vista to appear.

New Leopard features? MS will take another 5years to incorporate them into the next version of Vista while Apple will again pull ahead with even more innovating ideas.

Ever wonder how MS made so much money?

Check your mirror, then vaseline your ass!

Every time I read any of this stuff, I keep thinking of my senior citizen computer-challenged relatives. They just can't cope with Windoz as it is, so Vista is going to be a disaster!!!!

AARP has GOT to be getting some BIG BUCKS from Microsoft. Why don't they just tell it like it is and push OSX for the senior-set??

The Vista "project" has all of the appearances of what business theorists call a "death march". The MS whip cracker leadership just does not get it. Given what this Vista beta shows, the OS design is a conceptual disaster. We are not just talking about bugs here, but that Vista, even functioning as intended, is a catastrophe. That is not a correctable situation. A new start is required. And that includes a new management team, including the firing of Gates and Ballmer by the stockholders. As an AAPL investor, I hope that never happens.

Just looking at 2 screenshoots of ASTA LA VISTA, confirms the tradition of M$ ability to steal ideas from others and ...

MAKE THEM LOOK REALLY CRAPPY!

Oh my gawd!

Jake: "Leopard will ship no later than November '06, and probably more like October."

I'd doubt it for a couple of reasons.

1. WWDC is later than usual--August--giving developers less time to get their apps "Leopard Ready" if they ship in October or November. And, considering some of the stuff I'm hearing/seeing/guessing, there's a big change or two coming down the pike.

2. Steve Jobs, at last years WWDC, clearly said Leopard in early 2007--"right around the same time as Vista", which was scheduled for late 2006.

I'm guessing it will be February 2007--but Steve will show it off at MacWorld SF '07.

Looks like apple takes care of security from the inside out, M$ is trying to do it from the outside in.

Then again, Steve originally said it would take a year plus to make the changeover from PPC to Intel chips...but announced the first Intel systems 6 months later.

Could be that Leopard will be like the Intel rollout -- it'll handle older programs fine, but newer programs will really sing...

The latest I've heard about dates does not match what some folks have been saying here.

Apple revised its delivery date for Leopard to late December/January after MS announced the Vista shipping delay (to January, earliest).

There has since been a report that Vista will not be delivered until 'summer' next year - more than a year distant. Perhaps this means that it will be Mastered by late Dec/January and in hands of OEMs for six months of testing after that.

"Then again, Steve originally said it would take a year plus to make the changeover from PPC to Intel chips"

No. Jobs said that Apple would start shipping Intel machines in 2006 and the change-over would be complete by the end of 2006 (namely, you won't be able to get PowerPC machines anymore).

So, yes, I expect to see Macintosh Pros shipping in August or September and the store will have a little button that says, "Need a PowerMac? Click here" until December.

"Could be that Leopard will be like the Intel rollout -- it'll handle older programs fine, but newer programs will really sing..."

Certainly, but it will torque off developers.

For example, one of the things that has been mentioned is a resolution-independent interface, which will probably mess up a bunch of applications which assume 72dpi. But if you got the OS in August and only had two months to update your app, you'd be pretty annoyed.

Like I said, I don't think you'll see October or November of this year for Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard. I could see Steve announcing it at MacWorld SF and shipping in early February.

"Sqeeeze Me" may have the dumbest quote I have ever--ever--read on this board.

Your head has to be REALLY buried in the sand not to realize that IF Tiger ever ships


Someone should tell that moron troll that Tiger has been out for over a year.

And if he meant Leopard--it would be nice if the trolls at least did their homework--Apple has released 4 revisions of OS X when Microsoft is still late--and getting later--trying to ship 1.

Facts are such an uncomfortable thing for trolls.

Yet more Vista bashing from the Apple peanut gallery.

You people should grow up.

At least after the release of Vista people will no longer be able to say that PCs are outrightly cheaper than Macs.

When Apple builds an operating system that runs on hundreds of millions of computers worldwide, and supports hundreds of thousands of pieces of software and hardware, and is used by 90%+ of the planet, maybe then Steve Jobs and all his sheep can start crowing about how everyone copies them.

I use Windows, Mac and Linux on a regular basis. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. Vista looks like it will be a significant improvement over XP (and XP is quite good as it is.)

>@Peter:"For example, one of the things that has been mentioned is a resolution-independent interface, which will probably mess up a bunch of applications which assume 72dpi. But if you got the OS in August and only had two months to update your app, you'd be pretty annoyed."

---->Peter - resolution independence will not screw up ANY apps. Here's why: OS X uses 72dpi for fonts, right? 72 point type is 1 inch high. We both agree on that. OS X will CONTINUE to use 72dpi (at least from the users perspective). What resolution independence does is take say 14 pt. Lucida Grande and make sure it displays as such on ANY resolution monitor. Right now if you're using a MBP 15.4" and you're looking at 14 pt. LG it is SMALLER than on a 17" iMac. Why? Because the 15.4" screen on the MBP has the SAME resolution as the </b>17"</b> iMac screen. In other words, the physical size of the pixels is smaller on the MBP. Resolution independence will make 14pt. always display at it's proper (real) size no matter how high the resolution of the monitor is. 1900 x 1200? 14pt. IS 14pt. on the screen. So based on the resolution your monitor is, it upscales the type to be the actual point size on the screen factoring in the physical size of the pixels. To the user this will be transparent - you'll just be selecting a type size. The OS will take care of the rest. It will upscale the other graphical elements as well so type will not be overlapping buttons etc.

BTW: Vista will have this as well. Heard it from Loyd Case on dl.tv episode 65.

Are your lives so disgustingly boring that all you can do is bitch, bullshit and suck your way to superiority. Most of you come her cuz you smell some pussy, but the truth is, youre all a bunch of attention whores who are extremely childish and fanatical about TWO respectable OS's..People like yourselves are about .0005 percent of the earths population, and unfortunately, the masses will continue to use whats natural...so until OSX has 50 percent marketshare you all can kiss my windows on a mac using ass. OSX is a badass state or the art ****ing OS and Windows XP/Vista are badass state of the art ****ing OS's. They both have distinct differences that make them uncomparable..Windows is superioir to the mac in some areas - Mac OS X is superioir in others. Big freaking Deal. My Dodge Ram 2500 Turbo tows more than my buddies Chevy 2500HD Turbo, but he's got amenities that i would enjoy. But you wont see us circle jerking about it...Youre all a bunch of Twinks...When your not rubbing one out on your systems do you still dream about them? Gawd, get clues and/or lives. Go get some Nook or Cranny (pun)

Unspoken, forbidden MDN "Majic Word(s)" " > O S 9 and Windows NT4 "

real mw - Test as in "testicles"

LLLLLLLLLoosers

"Did you see the version comparison chart? You actually have to purchase the $700 "Windows Vista Ultimate" in order to get "Windows DVD Maker"!

Windows users love taking it up the ass, don't they?"

I think you've been taking something up the ass, too. How else could you pull that $700 price for Vista Ultimate out of it?

Hey Lame,

Good name for yourself, you pathetic, lame, conceited bitch.

You are so cowardly to say these types of things in an online forum.

I may be a Mac user, but I am also one of the best combat practitioners and instructors in the world, and I would certainly enjoy kicking your Windows lubbin' hinie up and down main street a few times.

But I would certainly never write the self-aggrandising and disrespectful BS that you just did.

It may be worth reflecting, if you even possess that ability, that you just wrote some of the worst stuff I have ever read in an internet forum.

Scumbag.