“Thinking of buying a PC, a Mac or a laptop this holiday season? If you’re in the market for a MacBook or a Mac desktop, Apple’s own Web site and its walk-in stores are the best places to buy, according to a survey by Consumer Reports magazine,” Sharon Gaudin reports for TechWeb.
“‘Apple definitely is doing something right,’ said Greg Daugherty, editor at large at the Yonkers, N.Y.-based Consumer Reports. ‘The highest-rated one of all, in terms of satisfaction, was buying online from Apple. Its retail store also was at the top of the retail category and not far down from the web site in terms of satisfaction,'” Gaudin reports.
Gaudin reports, “What was it that pushed Apple to the top in consumers’ hearts and wallets? Daugherty says people responding to their survey pointed to both selection and service. Apple employees also are known for being well-informed and helpful. ‘People are willing to pay a little extra for that,’ he noted.”
Full article here.
Related articles:
Apple again leads Consumer Reports’ survey for notebook, desktop computer tech support, value, more – October 16, 2006
Apple Mac desktops, notebooks top PC Magazine’s Annual Reader Satisfaction survey – again – August 22, 2006
Apple far outscores all other PC makers in Consumer Reports Computer Tech Support Survey – May 05, 2006
Apple Mac desktops, portables top PC Magazine’s 2005 Reader Satisfaction survey – August 24, 2005
Apple Computer products top PC Magazine’s annual ‘Best of the Year’ survey – December 16, 2004
Apple Macs top PC Magazine’s ’17th Annual Reader Satisfaction Survey’ – August 10, 2004
Apple leads PC Magazine’s 16th annual Service and Reliability Survey – July 10, 2003
But isn’t it great that people don’t have to ‘pay extra’ for any of that any more?
Apple now meets or beats almost all major competitors in the price/product equation.
They just know the best advertising is word-of-mouth and customer service reinforces that.
There are very few other companies that have as much control over their product line allowing them to be well informed enough to provide the level of service Apple does.
“People are willing to pay a little extra for that.”
What? I thought everyone had finally figured out that Macs are cheaper than simmilarly configured PCs.
People who purchase from Apple get “a little extra” for free, and a whole lot more for less.
MW = zipper, as in “Do up your zipper after you go zune.”
“‘People are willing to pay a little extra for that,’ he noted.”
I thought Macs were actually cheaper compared to crappy PCs…
Consumer Reports is so………..
I don’t think they are talking about the computers, necessarily. For instance, harddrives and DVD burners are a bit more. People are willing to pay the small amount more in order to have a salesperson that actually knows about them.
Considering the out and out wrong-ness of much of what CR has printed
about Apple in the past, this is a breath of fresh air!. only marginally
a left-handed compliment instead of the usual FUD-like comments,
CR is usually so misleading when it comes to Apple.
in Vancouver (Canada) last week they did a thing for the news about extended warranties and shamelessly misled people by saying Apple is the “exception” in the industry because you will need to purchase the extended warranty because they only offer 90 days of support! that’s such crap because now people will think the hardware is only covered for the 90 days but they are talking about just the telephone support. they should have said, in addition to the standard one year hardware service coverage…
I can testify to this. Wednesday, my MacBook Pro, bought as an apple refurb in July, suddenly had no audio at all.
I tried all the usual fixes, to no avail. It seemed to be a hardware issue, so I decided to contact Apple.
Tried by phone first, talked to a rep within a minute of dialing, and explained the situation. He immediately agreed to accept return of the computer for repair or replacement under warranty, but he suggested that due to the Thanksgiving Holiday, I try a local store for faster service.
So, I logged on to the web, pulled up the nearest Apple store, (South Hills Villege, Pittsburgh) and clicked on the link make an appointment at the Genius Bar. This was as 5PM on Wednesday. There was an opening at 7:40 that night. Gave my name and number and immediately had that appointment confirmed as mine.
Arrived at the store at the correct time. They were expecting me by first name. I explained the situation they ran a few tests and said it needed a new logic board. They had the part in stock, normally that is a while you wait job or within a 24 hour time frame. But, since it was 8PM by then and they were closed on Thursday for Thanksgiving, he said they would have it on Friday. GHe added, there was an outside chance that it may be delayed till Saturday, because of the expected rush of Black Friday.
I said ok call when it’s ready.
Slick! Other than the disappointment that it needed a logic board and I’m without my Mac for maybe two days, the entire process was smooth, professional, and painless.
BTW, the store was packed wall to wall with teenagers, obviously the cool place to hang out.
Being long in AAPL,
that made my heart go pitter patter.
Man, it’s a good time to be an Apple user!
It certainly is different than a few years ago. I remember telling everyone I cared about to follow AAPL. They all thought I was nuts. I am… but I was right.
When I bought my wireless Mighty Mouse, I guess someone was playing around on the Apple Store online on my mini, and when I ordered, I clicked checkout and noticed at the last second that there was a Mac mini Core Solo on the list. Unfortunately, the order was processed, and by the time I was able to cancel the item, it had already gone through.
I called support, and was almost immediately talking to someone about this blunder. Right away, the woman said she was, using my Apple ID info, already emailing the return info and page for me to print and put on the box when it came in. Two days later, I had it, and FedEx’d it the next day. The money was put back on my credit card and all was well.
Needless to say though, I was still embaressed. But I got over it, and then bought an iMac in October.
All in all, it turned out good (for both Apple and me). And it was-like turbowv said- smooth, professional, and painless. That is what tech support is supposed to be. Rest of the world’s companies take note.
OzzysCross101, actually the person you spoke with was ‘tele-sales’ (1-800-my-apple), rather than tech support/ applecare (1-800-apl-care).
I have yet to find something significant to complain about.
The employees of the Apple Store at the King of Prussia Mall can be pretty arrogant and only occasionally helpful. The store is ALWAYS packed, though. No experience with any other Apple stores.
My experiences with both Apple Store sales and service have been fantastic.
I bought a refurb first generation iMac G5 which succumbed to faulty capacitors on the logic board. I understand other vendors had the same problem. Anyway, I made an appointment online and took the machine to the Apple Store the same day. It was determined that the logic board should be replaced. Soon after I got the machine home video problems came up so I again made an online appointment for service at the local Apple Store. Apple decided enough was enough and they replaced the entire machine with a second generation iMac G5 (iSight) and transferred the data.
I guess the extraordinary thing about the whole episode was that everyone was cool, patient and took care of business in a very pleasant way. No one had to put up a fight; just to-the-point problem solving. Sure getting an upgraded machine was nice, but Apple did the right thing, no questions asked for this customer. This is how it’s supposed to be.
I don’t mean to make a commercial, but Apple has consistently been treating me right in other sales/service aspects for years.
Not if you shop at the aptly named Banana Computer authorised reseller in the Canaries. Awfull service and 1 month wait times for a Macbook. Oh yes, and Apple will not sell direct so you are stuffed if you want a Macbook within a month. There are many other places around the world where this also happens. Apple is nice if you live in UK or USA but sucks badly in many other regions.
I’ve also had great repair service – in my case on my wife’s iPod nano. As described by others, made the appointment online, my name was called within 5 minutes of my appoinment, I showed the “genius” the problem (it wouldn’t play through a dock device) – and 5 minutes later had a replacement. The Houston Galleria store seems to do a great job.
MDN Magic Word “hour” – made money by the hour last week with Apple stock!
This what the service was like in Japan. This was before we had an Apple Store here. We had our flat panel iMac go down on Monday. I called Tuesday and she had me try some things (about 5 minutes) and diagnosed the hard drive as having gone bad and said that someone would come to my house to pick up the unit the next day. So the next day (Wednesday) a guy comes and picks it up late afternoon. The unit is delivered back to my house all fixed first thing Friday. I restore from the external backup hard drive and everything is back to normal.
One day turnaround!! And all of that shipping was free.
Gotta love it.
JOhn:
You have to expect that the established influence of the local culture will likely determine how a business is managed and what business priorities predominate. This is what we called the “native way” and we had to adapt, which generally meant having to lower our standards of expectation. You will find life much better if you can tolerate moderating your criteria for competence and expertise.
“Apple now meets or beats almost all major competitors in the price/product equation. “
Provided you believe that Apple’s design and Mac OS X are worth the inflated price, Yes.
“Slick! Other than the disappointment that it needed a logic board and I’m without my Mac for maybe two days, the entire process was smooth, professional, and painless. “
problem 1: you had to take it to a store rather than them coming to your house/place of work.
Problem 2: Rather than them fixing it on the spot you’re going to be without the unit for two days then presumably have to go back to the store and get it.
That Service you got looks so Good compared to other vendor’s in home/office service.
“Man, it’s a good time to be an Apple user!”
If you’re dumb enough to believe that that’s good service, it’s a good time to be Apple.
“I guess the extraordinary thing about the whole episode was that everyone was cool, patient and took care of business in a very pleasant way. “
The most extraordinary thing was they they didn’t come to your house/place of work, the machine failed twice, yet you still thought the level of service you received was good. How badly would they have had to screw up to bump your rating up from Good to Excellent?
Equation:
You obviously haven’t done your homework or are unfamiliar with basic mathematical principles. Macs are no more expensive than most PC’s with equal or similar components. Additionally, Vista is expected to cost more than 10.5 and Vista will not have nearly the same elegance, features, functionality, and security as 10.5. If you’re happy with another slapdash tweaking of anachronistic NT architecture in a bargain basement PC, I suppose that you have the right to feel smug.
OK, Equation, how many times must someone show up at your doorstep to “fix” your PC to quantify how well your computer works? I have had no, read that, No, problems with my Mac for five years.
In fact, at work we see the designated PC repairman so frequently we know him by his first name and his kid’s names. Additionally, our IT personnel regularly take our system down to fix or de-bug conflicting software and remove malware. May be you need to consider how much down time you experience as a measure of PC functionality and performance, rather than how many times you need to open the door for the repairman or call the IT geek.
Put that in your equation, son.
C’mon, Equation, where’s your snappy reply? PC down? When will the Geek Squad arrive to fix it?
Oh, well, I gotta go. Let me know when you’re back online with another series of less than intelligent perspectives.
Equation,
I use the word “extraordinary” because in comparison to the experience my retired, fixed-income neighbor had with malware on his Windows machine (the local computer fix-it shop couldn’t disinfect it so they recommended he replace the entire machine, which he did) I had a smooth, hassle-free ride. Didn’t cost me anything, and I got to visit one of my favorite stores, which is always pleasant. If it makes me a snob to have no desire to stop by the Dell kiosk in between the fuzzy slipper and imitation designer perfume kiosks at the mall, then I guess I’m a snob. This Apple thing is worth the (presumed, but false) premium.
I would again say “extraordinary” in comparison to multiple family members who repeatedly require the family Windows “expert” to get them back up and running…
Too many of these stories which too many people find acceptable. I think more and more people are figuring it out. Maybe someday you will too.
M
Equation:
Since you claim superior mathematical skills, perhaps you can provide independently calculated repair frequencies of notebook and desktop machines for the following PC manufactures:
1. Dell
2. Sony
3. HP
4. Apple
No cheating!
I guess that Equation has calculated that it is much better to purchase a more robust Apple with fewer needed repairs versus a cheaper PC and “enjoy” receiving regular door-to-door services to fix the problems with his/her PC that could have and should have been prevented to begin with.
Equation, did you figure out how to apply Chi-square analysis yourself or did someone show you?
Equation may not be able to post his/her stupidities having injured him/herself lifting Dell’s new 18-pound <strike>portable</strike> luggable notebook, the XPS M1210. Wow, an 8 kilogram plus notebook. Thanks to Kim Komando for slavishly mentioning Dell’s latest <strike>regression</strike> advancement in notebook design.
http://oldcomputers.net/ibm5140.html
And I thought that Ballmer was the only idiot running a tech company. What do you think? Do these two tech gurus share the same mother or the same father?
Dell calls this monstrosity an addition to its “Lifestyles Notebook” design line. I suppose that if you are a professional powerlifter this would be the perfect training aid. Maybe I shouldn’t be so critical. After all the XPS M1210 has received professional endorsement,
http://thetravisty.com/Saturday_Night_Live/wmv/Hans_and_Franz_featuring_Arnold_Schwarzenegger.htm
Is his full name Equation Tang?
Huh? Apple is the best place to shop?
Apple is the best place to shop if there weren’t any other computer stores on the planet, but I still wouldn’t go. The guys at the Dell kiosk in the mall are terrific unless you’re a smug iPod lemming snob. They answered all of my questions about the Dell DJ, so I bought one. The thing that put it over the top was how open it was to various online music stores an operating systems, and that it could play WMA files natively. Who wants a file format agreed upon as an industry standard when the top-notch geniuses at Microsoft can make one? I say let one company control the file format. When one company calls the shots on a file format, everybody wins. Its a little something called simplicity. One company, one format. You don’t have to listen to the industry or consumer when you’ve got something truly exceptional going on. Hey Apple, try a little simplicity in your designs and you might have something instead of your typical mish-mash of discombobulated hardware and software “solutions”.
The guys at the Dell kiosk couldn’t help me with getting it to play music purchased at the iTunes Music Store. So I guess Apple is a great place to shop until you realize the bait and switch with all that music that only plays on an iPod. Nice one. That’s why so many people are going Zune. No more of Apple’s proprietary player and software combination. The Zune really opens it up with flexible WiFi, WMA, the Zune Marketplace and points system. Everybody can join in, and it won’t cost you an arm and a leg compared to iPod/iTunes.
Your potential. Our passion.
Damn.
And here I thought the kiddie trolls wouldn’t be online until the school library opens again on Monday.
If you troll clowns don’t like Apple then leave. There’s gotta be something better for you to do. Is MySpace slow this weekend or something?
Anyway these last few attention-defecit, anti-Apple posts are so idiotic I don’t know where to begin. If you’re trying to be sarcastic or funny your sense of humor needs some polishing. And if you’re serious, get your shit together, know the facts, and please learn to write.
To close: I use Apple, I’m tickled pink, and I see no need to go vent on MS boards or something stupid like that. When things just work you don’t need an outlet for your frustration.
Cubert, I’ve found that the staff at the King of Prussia store to be very helpful, like the 4 other Apple stores that I have visited. The Mac Genius staff is really great.
You must be one of those (snotty rich) people that everyone owes you something, one that no one can please!
Hey, Tang . . .
Why didn’t you buy a Zune, old troll? Haven’t you been saying it’s Gawd’s answer to the iPod? Hmmm, I smell some nuclear hypocrisy here!
Zune Tang, it’s like shooting fish in a barrel isn’t it?
Hey Poon . . .
I am a proud owner of a Zune. You should be too. I picked up the DJ a few years back. In a kiosk. Didn’t have WiFi at the time. Love the Zune WiFi. Love it. Thing is, that DJ is still light years ahead of an iPod.
BTW, let me know if you see a Dell DJ Ditty on eBay. I might start working out and I’ll need a fashionable, lightweight, easy to clip-on MP3 player that works with simple, yet powerful software that allows me to easily organize music files and effortlessly transfer them to an MP3 player. If anyone can do it, the great minds at Dell and geniuses at Microsoft can make it a reality.
Why would I wait for Apple who are just gonna copy Dell and Microsoft anyway?
Welcome to the Social.
Social+Squirt=STD
Tang sang “The Zune really opens it up with flexible WiFi, WMA, the Zune Marketplace and points system. Everybody can join in, and it won’t cost you an arm and a leg compared to iPod/iTunes.”
If you are tired of his sarcasm, skip his post, they are the ones that say “Zune Tang”.
If you don’t get his sarcasm, skip this site, there is a lot more you won’t understand.
Passer’s by being confused is understandable. He is an inside joke.
Flexible WiFi? That’s just funny to me.
At least he’s not a serious troll, attempts humor, and doesn’t preach about neo-cons.
Not that there’s anything wrong with it…
Tower Tone:
Tang is Equation, Equation is Tang. Who cares? It doesn’t matter. Whether each is a single individual or one in the same, they/he/she are/is a one trick pony whose 15 minutes of fame flamed out days ago. Losers, whose pathetic monotony is their only talent for living.
I think Zune Tang’s sarcasm helps keep the actual Windows trolls away.
“Macs are no more expensive than most PC’s with equal or similar components.”
Simply not true any more. May have been true on the day of some of these machines launch. Might have even been true for all of a couple of weeks. Not any more. A Dell with the same specs as an entry level Macbook is $340 less.
“PC down? When will the Geek Squad arrive to fix it? “
Another Mac owner myth that PCs are broken all the time. I seem to hear more about broken Macs which take days to fix in this forum.
“XPS M1210. Wow, an 8 kilogram plus notebook.”
The 1210 is a 4.37lb notebook. you’re right that’s a bit heavy compared to other people’s sub 3 pound machines, or 1.2 pounds for the pocketable PCs. But 4.37 pounds is not heavy compared to the MacBricks.
Now you might be thinking about the 2010, the 20″ Dell laptop, which for some reason you’re comparing to a non existent Apple product with a 20″ screen.
The closest “Portable” Apple equivalent is the 20″ iMac, weight 10 kilos, battery pack and inverter extra.
Equation:
Where’ve you been?
I’m too tired to do the math, but I don’t think that you are entirely honest with your calculations that a comparable Dell is “$340” less expensive than a comparable Mac. Throw in an overpriced and underperforming copy of a “professional” version of Vista (compared to 10.5) and the price difference is insignificant even using your math. In plain English, you’re full of shit.
If all the data you need to determine repair frequencies of Macs is from a few threads at MDN, you are more ignorant than you imagine. Not only is your data collection incomplete your data are also spurious and invalid. You might not be smart enough to understand the basic principles of credible research, but I feel obligated to tell you that your “scientific” method isn’t scientific at all.
From Dell’s own website (please see link below) it is obvious that Dell considers XPS M2010 a “mobile” PC even at “18.30” pounds or nearly three times the weight of a MacBook Pro. The “M” class of Dell computers stands for “mobile” although it might also mean “moronic”, but you knew that, right?
http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/xpsnb_m2010
By the way, the handle seems large enough that you could grip this brick with both hands. Also, the handle appears to have a non-slip surface, which should be useful when perspiration beads from your fingers and palms.
Heck, even Kim Komando calls the XPS M2010 a notebook albeit a mammoth notebook, and we all know that mammoths eventually became extinct. Isn’t Kim the self-proclaimed digital goddess of PCs? You know, the blond bimbo of Windows, the strumpet that trumpets PC propaganda, the tart with a heart for NT, the wench of legacy software, the moll of Microsoft?
Apple clearly advertises the iMac as a desktop and the iMac certainly doesn’t have a handle. Go the Apple website if you don’t believe me. I reckon that you can read English and comprehend English at better than a seventh grade level of education, you may correct me if I am wrong.
so i configured that “portable” XPS M2010 with similar equipped iMac 20″, because let’s face it, that Dell is barely more portable than the iMac. Portable doesn’t necessarily mean laptop, and the iMac is basically a 20″ MBP.
In Canadian dollars
Dell is $4384
iMac is $2059
matching processor speed, RAM, graphics card RAM, and similar HD capacity ( but Dell uses 2×120 5400 rpm).
Threw in the photo software from Corel that was offered to match iPhoto.
Plus XP pro instead of Media Centre edition. so no remote as it won’t work with XP.
“Portable doesn’t necessarily mean laptop, and the iMac is basically a 20″ MBP.”
How much was the iCarBattery and the iInverter you need to carry, and how much did they add to weight? did you get an iBackPack to put them in? Is it an elegant solution with those add-ons? Did you price a similar Dell compact desktop with 20″ monitor, if we’re talking desktop machines now?
“overpriced and underperforming copy of a “professional” version of Vista (compared to 10.5) and the price difference is insignificant even using your math”
That included the Home Premium edition of Vista already, I don’t see many compelling reasons for a home user to upgrade to “Professional” or “Ultimate”.
The Mac is of course even more expensive if as you point out you need to put money aside for the 10.5 OS upgrade. Lets call that another $129, making the Dell $470 less.
“I don’t think that you are entirely honest with your calculations”
Completely honest.
“In plain English, you’re full of shit.”
In plain English you know what I’m saying to be true, so you’re only resort, rather then to admit that you’re wrong is an insult?
Why do guys who like Macs seem to be on some insane quest to prove that they’re cheaper than Dells, spec for spec? They generally never are and probably never will be on any sustained basis. It always ends up with the Mac guy finally giving up with a statement like “So the PC’s cheaper, But the PC can’t run Mac OS X, and that’s worth the difference to me”. Fine, but you’d seem more credible and intelligent if you started with that proposition.
“you may correct me if I am wrong.”
You are wrong, because you’re saying Dell has a big heavy 20″ notebook and Apple’s solutions in that area, if they were to even exist, might hypothetically possibly be more elegant. You compare a 17″ notebook to a 20″ one, as if I should see them to be the same.
OK.
Because you don’t seem to factor in any difference in screen real estate into your notebook comparisons, Next time you do Windows size/weight comparisons you will presumably regard a 14″ Windows PC as the equivalent of a 17″ MBP for the point of size/weight comparisons? Or is it only OK do do ridiculously stupid comparisons when it’s Apple that comes out favorably? Because you will find a 14″ laptop at about half the weight of a 17″ MBP.
Fact is you can’t have a 20″ notebook from Apple at any price or weight.
Equation:
I really can’t see any advantage that the Dell 20″ laptop has over the 17″ Mac Book Pro. They have the same screen resolution (1680 x 1050) only according to a review I just read on the Dell, the backlight is patchy making it useless for serious design work and it only has a 2.16Ghz Core Duo whereas the MBP gives excellent backlight so is perfect as a mobile design studio, has smaller pixels so a much sharper display in general and packs a 2.66 core2duo so far more power.
Also It runs All OS’s unlike the OS limited Dell bathroom scale.
Give it up Equation. There are no advantages with XP and the gap widens to Apple’s advantage when Vista (piglipstick) becomes the defaut option on a PC.
Equation,
You said: “That included the Home Premium edition of Vista already, I don’t see many compelling reasons for a home user to upgrade to “Professional” or “Ultimate”.”
Well there is a reason to upgrade to premium or ultimate if you are comparing your Windoze Pee Cee to a Mac. That reason is simple. Apple do not rip out features of OS X and then release cut down versions. OS X is just OS X. One size fits all. Microsoft rip out features in bundled windows versions especially Vista just to force you to upgrade to get the best stuff and consequently rip you off. Also it’s to make their OS look more popular. They get paid money for their bundled versions then when you upgrade they get more money and inflate market share and falsely make you believe their userbase is actually bigger then it really is. But the reality is that there are loads of unused lover spec versions of Vista lying on shelves. On Mac OS X, everyone gets everything. And it’s very reasonable priced. I bought a family pack of Tiger for £139 which works out at £27.80 (around $56) per licence. How much was ultimate again? So to get everything that Vista has to offer and do a proper comparison against a mac you have to include Vista Ultimate. And loads of other third party software to get even a poor alternative to the fully inclusive iLife suite.
You are just putting feature limited versions of Vista in there to fabricate a better deal.
Sorry but that will never wash with the Mac communuity.
Until you can come up with a better screen res, faster processor and full vista version and still beat us on price you may as well concede.
C ya
Have fun with your virus checker. Good luck. You’ll need it.
Ooh my typing is bad. That should have been “lower spec” not “lover spec” and “reasonably” instead of “reasonable”.
I’ll check before posting next time.
“Microsoft rip out features in bundled windows versions especially Vista just to force you to upgrade to get the best stuff and consequently rip you off.”
Just what are these “Best” features you think a home user needs? C’mon, list out a few compelling ones.
“They have the same screen resolution (1680 x 1050) “
I’ve yet to find someone who prefers a 17″ screen and “Small” pixels to a 20″ screen, other than for portability reasons, which is your choice. And there are many 17″ PCs available with superior resolutions (read smaller pixels) to the Mac, if you’re looking for a 17″ system.
One has Doggy X1600 graphics, the other has the X1800 (You guess which). Of course if it’s a 17″ unit you’re looking for, you can get much faster graphics again.
One has fast 7200RPM Mirrored or striped RAID hard drives, for twice the speed and capacity, the other doesn’t (you guess which).
2.33 GHZ is the top processor on the Dell, which is the same as the processor on the Apple. You seem to be confused about Apple’s products, It’s the desktops that have a 2.66 Core 2 option.
Anyway, put aside the debate of if you even WANT a 20″ laptop, because if you don’t, don’t buy one. if you want a 17″ laptop, compare it to other 17″ laptops on the market.
It seems you’re comparing a product which doesn’t exist to one which does exist, and claiming that the nonexistent Apple product would be better if only it existed.
What next, Do you want to debate how an iPhone’s the best phone ever?
“better screen res, faster processor and full vista version and still beat us on price you may as well concede.”
What everything has to be better in every aspect, not just the price, how is that a fair comparison? That would exclude a lot of laptops every bit Apple’s equal, but cheaper.
You’re about 1 step away from saying that that’s true, but that the PC can’t run Mac OS X, just take the step. get it over with.
“Have fun with your virus checker. Good luck. You’ll need it.”
You’ve got it wrong, it’s the people without the virus checkers who need the luck. Have fun with all those new Mac exploits without one. even MDN had to finally admit that Mac Malware exists.
“Sorry but that will never wash with the Mac communuity.”
Can you explain OS X server to me?
“There are no advantages with XP and the gap widens to Apple’s advantage when Vista (piglipstick) becomes the defaut option on a PC.”
Most people expect the opposite. Today very few people can be bothered with Mac OS X, Over a million people who brought Intel Macs run boot camp on them. That, in case you can’t work it out means that the entire increase in Mac sales since the Intel launch and then some, went to people who want to run Windows on their Macs. after Vista launches and Apple starts preloading it, expect interest in Mac OS X to slide further.
“Portable doesn’t necessarily mean laptop, and the iMac is basically a 20″ MBP.”
It’s obvious that all desktops are portable using the most generalized definition that it can be carried by a single human being, dimwit. However, Dell conspicuously and proudly classifies the XPS M2010 a notebook whereas Apple clearly lists the iMac as a desktop. Truly, you are a getting more and more stupid by the minute. Additionally, according to Dell, it sells only notebook and desktop machines; and nowhere on its website does Dell claim that it sells laptops. Ergo, the XPS M2010 is a notebook by Dell’s own criteria. So quit obfuscating.
“That included the Home Premium edition of Vista already, I don’t see many compelling reasons for a home user to upgrade to “Professional” or “Ultimate”.”
It is satisfying to read that even you agree that Microsoft’s premier flagship OS is lacking the necessary features and innovative functions that would make it a desirable product. So, after nearly six years of effort, thousands of hours, and millions of dollars Microsoft has developed a dud. How does it feel knowing that 10.5 is just around the corner and you will probably have to wait another 5 years for Microsoft’s next attempt to maintain relevance?
“In plain English you know what I’m saying to be true, so you’re only resort, rather then to admit that you’re wrong is an insult?”
I resort to insults hopefully to embarrass and shame you because you are either a pathetic liar or a complete moron. In either case, you need adult supervision. Please refer to the first comment if you disagree.
Why do guys who like Macs seem to be on some insane quest to prove that they’re cheaper than Dells, spec for spec? They generally never are and probably never will be on any sustained basis.
I never said that Macs were less expensive that Dells. I clearly said that the price differences between comparable Macs and PCs are insignificant. Even if Macs were $340 more expensive than a comparable than a similar PC (as you stated), this amount amortized over a 5-year span is less than 19 cents per day. If 19 cents is a serious amount of money to you, you really need to find better employment. Have you considered higher education as a means to more economic freedom or are you the most parsimonious person that ever lived?
</b>You are wrong, because you’re saying Dell has a big heavy 20″ notebook and Apple’s solutions in that area, if they were to even exist, might hypothetically possibly be more elegant. You compare a 17″ notebook to a 20″ one, as if I should see them to be the same.</b>
Firstly, you seem to ignore the point of whether there is a viable market for Dell’s 20-inch 18.30-pound notebook, that is, if you can say 18.30-pound notebook in the same sentence without laughing. I also think it’s a nice touch that Dell published this spec to two significant digits.
Secondly, Dell manufactures two 17-inch notebooks E1705 and XPS M1710 at 7.65 and 8.71 pounds, respectively. Apple’s 17-inch MacBook Pro lists at 6.8 pounds or 89% and 78% the weight of Dell’s two premier notebook models. Since you are a self-described expert in comparable features of Macs and PCs you should be able to describe in detail the performance enhancements of the Dell models achieved this with increased weight.
Thirdly, with a 2-inch (13%) increase in monitor size the MacBook Pro the weight increases by 17% or 0.6 pounds per inch. With a 3-inch (18%) increase in monitor size the weight of the Dell increases a whopping 210% or 3.2 pounds per inch and this is using the heavier 17-inch minibrick XPS M1710 as the standard. This means that for every inch of increase in monitor size the weight of the Dell notebook increases at a rate 5-times that of Apple. Maybe the XPS 2010 will result in a new medical diagnosis called Repetitive Lugging Syndrome. I hope that you have decent medical insurance.
Make that four significant digits. I apologize. The thought of a 8.3-kilogram notebook is distracting to me.
First let me apologize for getting back on topic. I too have gone through online configuration of similar Apple and Dell offerings. Apple was less, and even if it was more, I simply don’t want a Dell for way too many reasons to mention. My point is Apple’s online experience is terrific. In the brick and mortar world it’s kind of like the nicely organized and friendly atmosphere of Apple retail stores vs. those dumpy Dell kiosks. Dell had too many screens and an overall ugly layout, like their computers. If they don’t have pride in product and presentation, why should I buy from them? This stuff affects satisfaction which is what the article is about.
I don’t care if Dell has more options on their site. The “pain-in-the-ass” metaphor Dell & Microsoft have come up in their products shines through on Dell’s web page. I applaud their consistency. Apple’s is still way better.
Why narrowly define “best place to shop” as a store where something costs less? I have been uniformly and thoroughly satisfied with my Apple experience. It all has been worth the money. I work with a Windows craptop 8 hours a day after using Macs in the workplace for years. It isn’t satisfying.
Equation is right, Apple has no notebook comparable to the XPS M2010. Dell has the distinction of promoting a “notebook” ( 18.3-pound ) of comparable weight as a desktop (20-inch iMac, 22 pounds). I suppose that describing the XPS M2010 a “notebook” makes it less embarrassing to carry than calling it a desktop. However, I don’t think that calling the XPS M2010 a notebook will make it any more easy to carry.
Equation:
The 20-inch iMac base price is $1,499 the 20-inch XPS M2010 is base priced at $2,999. I guess the extra $1,500 includes 40-inch wheels and reflective orange triangles or are these optional upgrades? Seriously, what do you get for the extra $1,500? I need to know because this appears to be one glaring flaw in your assertion that Macs are more expensive than “comparable” PCs.
“M2010 a notebook whereas Apple clearly lists the iMac as a desktop. Truly, you are a getting more and more stupid by the minute”
Clearly one is completely self contained and can be used in absence of an AC outlet, and is designed to be folded into an easily transported (if large and heavy) package. I think I could get on a plane with the Dell. Good luck doing that with your iMac, keyboard, car battery and inverter without coming up with another case to put it all into. Lets see if an Air Marshall plugs you with a few rounds of 357 Sig when you pull it out and start trying to connect it all up.
“satisfying to read that even you agree that Microsoft’s premier flagship OS is lacking the necessary features and innovative functions that would make it a desirable product.”
Vista is of course desirable, What is not clear is why a home user needs pay for a few extra features like connecting to an NT server domain or running IIS.
“How does it feel knowing that 10.5 is just around the corner and you will probably have to wait another 5 years for Microsoft’s next attempt to maintain relevance?”
Simple, even at version 10.4 Mac OS X is not relevant except a a counterpoint to Microsoft’s dominance. With 10.5 it still won’t be any more relevant. Inf anything Vista will make it less relevant. Windows XP and Vista will continue to be the most relevant operating systems in the world today.
““In plain English you know what I’m saying to be true, so you’re only resort, rather then to admit that you’re wrong is an insult?”
I resort to insults hopefully to embarrass and shame you because you are either a pathetic liar or a complete moron. “
But not because I’m wrong. I think you made my point for me.
“I never said that Macs were less expensive that Dells.”
As I said earlier, that’s always where we end up. Game Over. Thanks for playing.
“performance enhancements of the Dell models achieved this with increased weight.”
Dell makes more than 2 17″ models, but here we go:
With the XPS radically faster graphics, and much higher LCD resolution, more memory, the same or better in every measure of performance or functionality.
With the Inspiron you can have radically faster graphics, and much higher LCD resolution and a much lower price.
“this amount amortized over a 5-year span is less than 19 cents per day”
Or put back together it’s $340 you didn’t have to spend. And do you really think you’ll be happy with today’s Mac in 5 years. Gone are the days of Apple not changing hardware design or performance significantly for 5 years.
“increases a whopping 210% or 3.2 pounds per inch “
Sensibly this should be non-linear as the size of the laptop increases as at least the square of the screen dimensional increase. The point remains. There are no 4.5″ mac notebooks which weigh just over a pound. No 11″ ones at 2.76 pounds. no 13″ ones at 3.7 pounds, no 15.4″ ones at 5.3 pounds. No Macs thinner than 1″ but plenty of PCs that beat that. The 17″ Macbook is one of the few Macs which you could make that weight comparison and come out ahead.
“Maybe the XPS 2010 will result in a new medical diagnosis called Repetitive Lugging Syndrome. “
So don’t buy it, The point is you can’t have a 20″ notebook from Apple at any price or weight.
Back in the day of Compaq luggables, Women carried 28 pound computers. Can’t carry a 18lb box?When did computer users become such girly men?
“The closest Portable Apple equivalent is the 20″ iMac, weight 10 kilos, battery pack and inverter extra.”
You are comparing a Dell notebook with an Apple desktop, again. Ridiculous. Hey, don’t just listen to me, let’s get some another perspectives, shall we?
http://crave.cnet.co.uk/video/0,139101587,49284379,00.htm
http://laptopmag.com/Features/Attack-of-the-20-inch-Notebook.htm
Oh, I get it! The Beast best designed for PC users who crave some compensatory relief to overcome their lack of manly features. Too bad the Beast can’t compensate for a lack of intelligence and common sense. Actually, if you are morbid obese this thing might fit your laptop. Are you large, in a physical sense, that is?
“What is not clear is why a home user needs pay for a few extra features like connecting to an NT server domain or running IIS.”
Yeah, neither does a home user need Microsoft’s answer for hardware protection or encryption. Really, no one needs this stuff. Ouch, wait, if you work from home you just might need to purchase Vista Ultimate. Oops, there goes your budget. Maybe you don’t need to work from home.
Catchy name, too, “Ultimate”. Without “Ultimate” you’re really not being a real power PC user. With Apple, however, 10.5 will work in all environments seamless and will also cost less than “Ultimate”. Nice!
Besides what does a humble home user like you need with a 20-inch notebook designed for “professionals”? And why would someone willing to fork over $2,499 to $4,000 for a 20-inch notebook quibble about a measly $340? And why would someone willing to fork over $2,499 to $4,000 for a 20-inch notebook quibble about the cost of “Ultimate”. And why would someone willing to fork over $2,499 to $4,000 for a 20-inch notebook install an inferior version of Vista? That’s like buying a Porsche and installing a 1,000cc engine. That’s the “Ultimate” in stupidity. Admit it, if you’re going to spend oodles of cash on the Beast you’re also going to spend the cash for “Ultimate” and still get less for your money than 10.5 in 2007.
” But not because I’m wrong. I think you made my point for me.”
Liars are wrong by definition and morons are, well, if you’re a moron you wouldn’t understand.
”Or put back together it’s $340 you didn’t have to spend. And do you really think you’ll be happy with today’s Mac in 5 years. Gone are the days of Apple not changing hardware design or performance significantly for 5 years.
Macs have greater functionality for a longer time than PCs. I’m sure that the $2,499 you spend on the Beast is really worth it. I could get a Mac with 10.5 and more with that cash and have change left over. What do you get? Sniggers and stares and an inferior OS. See comments above, too.
</b>” With the XPS radically faster graphics, and much higher LCD resolution, more memory, the same or better in every measure of performance or functionality. With the Inspiron you can have radically faster graphics, and much higher LCD resolution and a much lower price.”</b>
That’s why both the XPS M2010 and Inspiron are offered by PC Magazine in their great giveaway, no, wait that’s the MacBook Pro. Sorry, my mistake. What I meant to say was PC Magazine editor’s choice for a notebook in 2006 was the XPS M2010, no, wait that was the Apple MacBok Pro, again. I can’t believe I made the same mistake twice!
But, hey, I have to admit that PC’s can run much more software than Macs. Oh, man. I’m wrong again!
http://www.macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/apple_macs_can_run_more_software_than_windows_pcs/
This is embarrassing, huh?
Well, I’m not a gamer so faster graphics are irrelevant. I don’t need more memory because my Mac function perfectly well without it and OS X isn’t a memory hog. The resolution on my Mac is good enough for what I need to do. I don’t have to cram my machine with more expensive components to achieve an imperceptible or impracticable benefit in performance. Even with my five-year-old Mac, I function at home and a work with a PC that costs thousands of dollars less than the Beast. Looks like I’m smarter than you!
“Sensibly this should be non-linear as the size of the laptop increases as at least the square of the screen dimensional increase.”
Again, you failed to address the fact that Dell notebooks are heavier than Mac notebooks of equal monitor size. Additionally, you failed to explain how the rate of weight increases in Dell notebooks vastly exceed the rate of Macs. How come Dell can’t do what Apple can?
”The point is you can’t have a 20″ notebook from Apple at any price or weight.”
Because Apple knows a mistake when it sees one.
Equation gets it.
“When did computer users become such girly men?” is a great question. The girly men are Mac users who are satisfied to shop at their girly store for their girly computers and girly MP3 players. You know why Macs don’t have viruses? It’s because girly Mac users don’t have the fortitude or guts to combat malware. One virus would wipe you feeble little Mac users out. It would be genocide.
Dell and Microsoft users are brawny tough men who write brawny tough e-mails and even brawnier and tougher spreadsheets. We’ve got the strength to fight the malware battle you girly Mac users are too afraid to fight. Now go back to your sissy video editing and weak little sound and image manipulation. Babies.
Your potential. Our passion.
“This is embarrassing, huh?
Well, I’m not a gamer so faster graphics are irrelevant. I don’t need more memory because my Mac function perfectly well without it and OS X isn’t a memory hog. The resolution on my Mac is good enough for what I need to do. I don’t have to cram my machine with more expensive components to achieve an imperceptible or impracticable benefit in performance. Even with my five-year-old Mac, I function at home and a work with a PC that costs thousands of dollars less than the Beast. Looks like I’m smarter than you!”
So it seems that your argument now boils down to you’re saying is saving money is good, you admit Apple doesn’t have the best features in it’s notebooks, but you buy them anyway because to you the’re “good enough”.
You’re clearly looking for the “Best Notebook made by Apple”. That would make any argument on realtive features or merits or pricing of other brands of notebooks moot.
Yes. Embarrasing. For You. You loose. Thanks for playing.
Zune Tang:
You one trick pony! Quit using my threads as your own material. Even your forays into this discussion are monotonous repeats of your looney Zunisms. Do yer social whatever and leave us Macheads alone. Criminy, you’d think Tang has no one to squirt upon or be squirted on.
For the love of God, please, someone buy a Zune and give Tang a ring! That should keep him busy for the next week and away from MDN.
Equation:
I never said what Mac I owned so it seems that you need to test your assumptions before making conclusions.
You remind me of my university friend (PC owner no less) who purchased a $6,700 stereo system that produced the most realistic sound possible. He felt comforted that although he couldn’t hear the all the frequencies his system was emitting they were there. I don’t know why you think the XPS M2010 and its 20-inch Windows cousins are such phenomenal products, but then again I had the same doubts with my friend’s dubious stereo purchase. Buying what I need when I need it and nothing more and not sooner is common sense.
Considering that Macbook Pro received the endorsement of PC Magazine as notebook of the year in 2006 I can understand your frustration realizing that Apple is encroaching into your Windows world. If you are confident enough to predict which OS receives PC Magazine’s endorsement in 2007, Vista or 10.5, please make your selection today. If you think that Dell’s XPS M2010 will succeed Apple’s MacBook Pro as PC Magazine’s notebook of the year in 2007, say so today, too. To add to the excitement, tell us year and quarter Zune eclipses iPod as the number one selling hard-drive digital music player. Can you handle it?
You’re clearly looking for the “Best Notebook made by Apple”. That would make any argument on realtive features or merits or pricing of other brands of notebooks moot.
Yes. Embarrasing. For You. You loose. Thanks for playing.
I suppose that your having a minority opinion makes you feel that you made the correct decision or makes you feel that you’re on the cutting edge of technology. That used to be the claim to fame assigned to Mac users by PC fanbois for years. If you want to use the same argument to legitimize your own opinion I won’t deny you, but I never used the same irratonal excuse for making my computer purchases.
“I suppose that your having a minority opinion makes you feel that you made the correct decision or makes you feel that you’re on the cutting edge of technology.”
Just what do you consider the “Minority opinion” to be, that Dell has 20″ notebook and Apple does not? That the smallest, lightest laptops are not Macs? That the fastest laptops are not Macs? That Dells are spec for spec cheaper than Macs? That the most popular OS on the planet is Windows not Mac OS X? That in the end you came back to the argument that though Macs are not cheaper or faster, that you’d rather have a Mac because of Mac OS X?
All of the above would be facts, not opinions.
Thanks for playing. Better luck next time.
“Considering that Macbook Pro received the endorsement of PC Magazine as notebook of the year in 2006”
Actually I looked that up and had to laugh:
PC Mag’s Best list:
Best Gaming: Dell
Best Business: Apple, Lenovo
Best Media Center: Apple, Dell
Best General Purpose: Dell
Best Tablet: Lenovo
Best Sub $1000 Laptop: Dell
So Apple shares top ranking with Dell and IBM in the two categories which it wins.
Dell wins another three outright, Lenovo wins another one outright.
Count it up, of six categories that would be first or first equal in all six to non Apple PCs.
The best Apple does is First Equal in two categories to Apple PCs.
Yep, you’re really proving a point there. According to PcMag Dell beats Apple who matches Lenovo
Some great quotes from the article:
“The MacBook Pro 15-inch’s SYSmark 2004 SE overall scores were 24 percent and 20 percent less than scores posted by the Dell XPS M1710 (Core 2 Duo) and the Alienware Area-51 m5550, respectively”
“Mac OS 10 still has some catching up to do with application support. “
“With the improvement of Boot Camp Beta and third-party software such as Parallels Desktop, you have the option to run Windows more efficiently than ever before. “
Good one Equation. PC Mag gave Apple 2 first places. PC Mag!
On the other hand, MacWorld Mag gave Apple first place in every category. No PC was even considered in any category.
What does that tell you? Even PC Mag knows that their major advertisers make crap.
When you have to stab your major sources of revenue in the eye, you know PC Mag held their noses when they did their reviews and made their Best List Nominations.
Just STFU. You can’t win.
Equation,
My god you’re such a bloody ignorant know it all aren’t you. You come on a Mac site bating macheads and lying through your teeth.
Do you realise exactly how ridiculous you sound!!!
“Just what are these “Best” features you think a home user needs? C’mon, list out a few compelling ones.”
Compelling isn’t important. Read what I said pal. You can’t compare a version of an OS that has been pared down to make it a bit cheaper with one that doesn’t get cut to bits to make many versions. If you want to compare OS X to windows then you have to compare Vista Ultimate to OS X. If there were OS X Basic, or OS X professional and other flavours of OS X then you can compare other versions of Vista to them but there aren’t. It’s like trying to compare a middle of the road car from one manufacturer with a car model from another company that only has one fully kitted out version an no less capable versions.
I said “They have the same screen resolution (1680 x 1050)”
You said “I’ve yet to find someone who prefers a 17” screen and “Small” pixels to a 20″ screen”
If there is no actual screen real estate gain (which there isn’t) then with a portable computer only an idiot would want to have dotty blown up pixels and a heavier bulkier machine. You gain nothing if there aren’t more pixels. I know nobody who would prefer a 20″ monitor with low resolution over a 17″ monitor with sharper pixels and a higher resolution. If the 20″ screen had the same dot pitch as the 17″ i.e. way more pixels then I would agree. I am a graphic designer and have been for 14 years and I know that people who choose bigger monitors choose them for the increased number of pixels they provide. If it is just bigger but no more pixels then i’s just no use. Unless you are partially sighted of course. The size of graphics on a 17″ MBP is correct of the monitor size so we can establish that the 20″ dell has graphics that are just blown up and pixellated.
“One has Doggy X1600 graphics, the other has the X1800 (You guess which). Of course if it’s a 17″ unit you’re looking for, you can get much faster graphics again.”
That’s only a big deal for gamers and other kids. Who cares. I would put much more importance on dot pitch and a good even backlight.
Some people use their computer for productive work and are not obsessed with silly video games.
“One has fast 7200RPM Mirrored or striped RAID hard drives, for twice the speed and capacity, the other doesn’t (you guess which).”
You can get 7200 RPM on a MBP as an option. So what. And RAID on a laptop is just more bulk. I would prefer a single decent drive and external networked RAID solution for my whole network. No wonder the Dell is so heavy
2.33 GHZ is the top processor on the Dell, which is the same as the processor on the Apple. You seem to be confused about Apple’s products, It’s the desktops that have a 2.66 Core 2 option.
Aah. Yes I did read that wrong the MBP 17″ is 2.33 but it’s CORE 2 DUO. So it still beats the DELL.
http://www.apple.com/uk/macbookpro/specs.html
A little more for you Equation you Windoze fan boy and as for Zune Tang. STFU asshole…
“Have fun with your virus checker. Good luck. You’ll need it.”
You’ve got it wrong, it’s the people without the virus checkers who need the luck.
Do you really think that Symantec, AVG and the other virus checker makers catch every virus out there before it infects a shit load of Windows boxes. They can only write a virus definition once they have had the irus reported to them and hundreds of machines gget hit by then. Good luck when it’s your turn…
Have fun with all those new Mac exploits without one. even MDN had to finally admit that Mac Malware exists.
Oh yeah. One. And it is a proof of concept and cannot affect the system and requires you to turn on something that is OFF by default and all it can do is crash the system and it does no actual damage and and and…
So it’s NOT actually a virus…
So the score is 119,000 windows Viruses to zero Mac viruses.
And there are Windows killer viruses already. He he…
Windows was thrown together as a single user desktop OS with absolutely NO security by design. The security was established by hiding files that are vulnerable to the user making them effectively obscure. But those files were still there and open to anyone. You just have to know where to look. There was a term coined for this MS principle “Security by Obscurity”. Yes. that term you Windows user love to throw at Macheads actually refers to Windows. MS FUD engine just tried (and succeeded) to make people think that Macs are secure because they are obscure but with 16 million Mac users and counting there should be a few real viruses by now. Especially when you factor in 10,000 Vista beta users and a Vista virus pops it’s little head up.
The only way to make windows pseudo-secure is to try and stop exploits getting on it. Like a wall. Hence firewalls and malware checkers. Only once you get through that wall you can wreak havoc. On a Mac if you get in then you still have to reach root level to affect the system due to it’s UNIX design. UNIX was designed as a server OS so a multi user scenario was it’s intended use.
Windows without a full re-write making it no longer compatible with ANY existing software will never have any real security.
“Can you explain OS X server to me?”
With pleasure. OS X server as far as the OS part of the install is concerned is exactly the same as the standard OS X version but in addition it includes a full server config area and other goodies to allow you to run the facilities of an ISP or practically any type of practical server requirement. However it is still just OS X. An OS is an OS and a server is a server. They are both softwre that runs on a computer. Basically you get 2 different packages in one. Apache isn’t a feature of an OS. Neither is Sendmail, Qmail, MySQL or BIND. They are all server softwares. You gain nothing in the user experience with OS X server over OS X. Standard OS X comes with Bind and Apache etc but they would have to be configured manually to add virtual hosts and zone files. But OS X is not a cut down version of OS X server. OS X server is designed to run on X-Serves in a rack. Now Vista’s basic versions have niceties and other actual OS stuff taken out like Aero for example and other features actually core to the OS’s user experience are removed. To get OS X server’s functionality there are loads of open source packages that will do the same thing but there is no way you can patch Vista basic version to get the same user experience as Ultimate.
and finally….
I said: “There are no advantages with XP and the gap widens to Apple’s advantage when Vista (piglipstick) becomes the defaut option on a PC.”
You replied: “Most people expect the opposite. Today very few people can be bothered with Mac OS X, Over a million people who brought Intel Macs run boot camp on them. That, in case you can’t work it out means that the entire increase in Mac sales since the Intel launch and then some, went to people who want to run Windows on their Macs. after Vista launches and Apple starts preloading it, expect interest in Mac OS X to slide further.”
That’s pure hogwash. Apple are getting one ex-windows person every hour in an Apple store buying a Mac for the first time. Windows switchers are using boot camp to gradually ease the transition from an all windows environment to OS X. Only a Moron would buy a Mac and use the internet in Windows with virus checkers and a firewall and hoping for the best. I know three people that have switched and they are loving the Mac OS X experience. One of them told me they hadn’t enjoyed using a computer so much in years. All of them said they couldn’t wait to remove windows completely. These one million people you mention will use boot camp and more practically a virtual machine like Parallels for the old games they have and their existing Apps then gradually get Mac versions or alternatives. If you think otherwise you must be a idiot. For a start, using Windows on the Internet is like sleeping around with people with STD’s wearing a Condom and hoping it will never split.
I said Good luck playing with your virus checkers for a reason.
Just realised I missed speechmarks off some of my Equation quotes. Sorry if I confused anyone….
Why don’t you guys just whoop them out and get it over with?
Zune does it all the time-creeps me out.
British Mac Head gets it.
Bravo British Mac Head, BRAVO! Love the “STFU asshole” part. Welcome to the dark side, my friend. You are now an honorary member of the WFT (Windows Fanboy Trolls). You have many of the traits we’re looking for:
– Name calling (“STFU asshole”, “…you must be a idiot”)
– Poor grammar (“Ooh my typing is bad…”, “Just realised I missed speechmarks off…”) Suggestion: don’t apologize — oops! I mean apologise for the crappy grammar. Let it flow.
– Overall combative, negative tone in your writing
Good stuff. You passed the audition. Makes me want to squirt with you sometime. Do you have a Zune too?
Your potential. Our passion.
“Good one Equation. PC Mag gave Apple 2 first places. PC Mag!”
it wasn’t me who put up the PcMag example, it was Huh? who said this proved how much better Macs were than other PCs. They’d obviously seen a one line reference somewhere and taken it as the gospel truth. I just researched it properly for him.
“It’s like trying to compare a middle of the road car from one manufacturer with a car model from another company that only has one fully kitted out version an no less capable versions.”
No, it’s like trying to compare a car with all the features you want and need against one with a bunch of features that you don’t want or need. Why would you pay extra for the second one?
“I know that people who choose bigger monitors choose them for the increased number of pixels they provide.”
I know that’s for both reasons. But if we accept you reason, it’s just another reason why 17″ Dells with their higher resolution screens are better then 17″ macbooks. So if you don’t have a use for 20″ PC, don’t buy it. Buy another screen size instead. You can still get a much better dot pitch with PC screens.
“2.33 GHZ is the top processor on the Dell, which is the same as the processor on the Apple. You seem to be confused about Apple’s products, It’s the desktops that have a 2.66 Core 2 option.
Aah. Yes I did read that wrong the MBP 17″ is 2.33 but it’s CORE 2 DUO. So it still beats the DELL.”
Keep showing your ignorance. The Dell is a Core 2 Duo. Got any other false argument you’d like to trot out?
“Oh yeah. One. And it is a proof of concept and cannot affect the system and requires you to turn on something that is OFF by default and all it can do is crash the system and it does no actual damage and and and…
So it’s NOT actually a virus…”
Good luck with that, behind proof of concepts follow the exploits.
“Windows was thrown together as a single user desktop OS with absolutely NO security by design. The security was established by hiding files that are vulnerable to the user making them effectively obscure. But those files were still there and open to anyone. “
Clearly again you know nothing about Windows security. You can set individual permissions on any Windows file or parts of the registry so that even the administrator can’t access them. I bet there’s even some die hard Mac guys laughing at your ignorance.
“On a Mac if you get in then you still have to reach root level to affect the system due to it’s UNIX design.”
Then here’s my test for you, run a shell with your normal permissions
type the command
rm -rf /
Don’t worry what it does, after all, according to you, nothing run with your user permissions can hurt you.
If you can still post after that, let me know how it worked out for you running that process with nothing more than your permissions. Then understand what a virus running with no more than your rights can do.
“However it is still just OS X. “
Just as all the different versions of Vista with different capabilities are just Vista. Point is, Apple has two versions, yet you blast Microsoft for having more than one.
Do you really expect people to buy Ultimate, unless bundled for almost nothing extra with a PC? or Home Basic on anything but a $299 PC?
“Apple are getting one ex-windows person every hour in an Apple store buying a Mac for the first time.”
That sounds impressive until you work out what that means. Apple claims 1000 “New to Mac” customers per store per quarter, or 4,000 per store per year, or across an average of 146 stores open, that’s 586,000 people. Sounds like a lot right?
Now consider that the market grew 17% last year. 218 million PCs were shipped. Not only is that Apple number a small fraction of the growth in the PC market, it’s a tiny fraction of the number of units shipped as a whole. How many of those 218 million PCs went to first time PC owners? I don’t know, but I’ll take the bet that it’s more than 586,000 units.
“using Windows on the Internet is like sleeping around with people with STD’s wearing a Condom and hoping it will never split.”
Whereas using the Mac is like using no protection in the mistaken belief that “people like you” can’t possibly catch an STD. Well guess what, the diseases that affect you have now been identified. All you’re left with is the belief that you won’t be one of the ones who catches them.
Oh, the dichotomy! Microsoft desperately wants to be more like Apple and PC manufacturers desperately want to make machines uniquely different from Macs. Microsoft’s mad dash to be just like Apple is Zune in 2006 and Vista will finally exhaust its struggling marathon in 2007 as the pared-down Windows NT version of OS X. Conversely, Dell feels compelled to make an unwieldy 18-pound mobile desktop just to distinguish themselves from Apple’s MacBook and MacBook Pro. What most people call absurd and impractical, Dell labels progressive.
Microsoft howls “We’re as good as Apple!” Dell squeals “We’re different from Apple!” The single note that predominates in the chorus of yelping Windows apologists is Apple. Neither Microsoft nor Dell et al can ignore what Apple does. Whether they are infatuated with Apple or despise Apple, they can’t ignore Apple. Nearly everything today’s “leaders” in the Windows world feel obligated to do is determined first in the boardrooms of Cupertino.
Equation. Why have you even come here…
You are either a really horrible person who came here to bait Macheads. Or you are feeling the pinch because you know Apple is a far more profitable company than your precious MS or Dell…
Why do you feel so threatened. After all. We have the better products true, but as you like to point out they have way less market share than Windows so why so paranoid Equation?
OK. You said to run rm -rf. Well for a start. Even as root you would have to use a capital R not a lower case ‘r’ to get recursive deletion with that command. As a standard Mac user it would affect nothing. Most mac users do not even know their root password, so that command is useless. A standard Mac user out of the box is an administrator yes, but that user does not have root permissions. Three user levels. Same with Linux.
Now Equation, please understand, I have been running Linux web and mail servers for years at Telehouse data centre here in the UK. So don’t try throwing unix commands at me.
In contrast a Windows user out of the box is an administrator and an administrator on Windows is god on that box. They can do absolutely anything. So go to your PC and CD to the root of your hard drive then run the command del *.* /f /s
That one will actually work.
While it’s true that any OS is as secure as you make it or rather in Windows case, as secure as the software you run on it, Windows is inherently less secure out of the box.
Here is a real world example for you. A windows PC attached direct to the Telehouse network was virus infected within 15 seconds (thats the present record). We have had linux boxes sat there for 3 years out the box (no additional security) and not a scratch. As Mac OS X has the same Unix underpinnings the same can be said for Macs. Hey, any of you fellow Mac users that are not even running the standard Apple firewall ever have hack attempts on your machine? Any of you ever actually get hacked?
Like for like with all hosting services disabled and no patches applied, why is it that without knowing a user password you can infect windows with a virus and compromise the entire system, yet any OS X or linux exploits can only be achieved once an account has been compromised ?
Now you said that you can tune file permissions in Windows to make them more secure. Well that’s all well and good but find me an average Joe Windows user that does that of their own accord. Could your mum do it?
So now I have PROVEN that Macs are more secure out of the box will you go away and bait some other site.
And while you are at it. You should sell your MSFT and DELL stock and buy some AAPL shares. You might actually make a profit.
Apple shares over the last 5 years have increased in value by 823.69%. Contrast that with DELL who have had an increase of 3.68% and Microsoft who have had loss of 8.01%.
Face it. It’s the beginning of the end for the unprofitable megolith Microsoft. X-Box is a loss leader costing Microsoft Millions. Zune is getting less and less popular daily. Vista gets so much bad press you could wallpaper your entire house with the articles slating it.
That’s probably why Dell wants to license the Mac OS X.
And a note here just for Zune Tang. How about that. A completely factual retorte with no conjecture and no cursing and bad grammar.
I have read the articles and spoken facts (not opinions) in this post here Equation. If you contradict them we know you are just a troll who likes to bait Mac users on their own turf.
As far as market share is concerned, shareholders are more concerned about bottom line profit and not market share. Try looking at installed user base. MAcs tend to be used for 4 – 5 years before upgrading and they mainly get passed down to family menbers or members of staff with smaller power needs. In Contrase a good deal of PC’s are thrown in Landfills. So the installed Userbase for Macs is growing even without massive sales. Someone once equated it to 16 – 20%. Maybe it’s less, maybe it’s more. I don’t know. However, if you are desperate to argue market share then Apple have a comparable Market share if you actually compare us to our real competitors. Apple make quality computers. They have no bargain boxes with second rate components or cheap tacky cases. Apple use high grade Aluminium and polycarbonate and other high quality materials. So without comparing sales of tacky low profit cheap loss leader boxes from say Dell or HP used to make up the numbers and only using those manufacturers better machines, Apple probably have the biggest Market share of all. And we have 100% market share of the OS X market.
Also there is no point in comparing sales of Windows to Sales of Mac OS X as Apple don’t specialise in selling Mac OS X as a stand alone product like MS sell windows. Apple sell the hardware like Dell or HP. OS X comes with it it’s inclusive. You have to pay for Windows.
Oh yeah guys. That unix command Equation sent me which should have been “rm -Rf /” (without the quotes obviously) will delete the contents of your hard drive if you are logged in as root. I know some of you will already know this but some may not. I doubt that any Mac user would be daft enough to try it as root but that’s what it does.
huh?
That was beautiful man…
Remind me to print that out and take it along to our next MUG meeting…
OK, Equation, and Zune boy… I just ran “rm -rf /” on my mac with a standard Administrator account and the results are below.
So now I have done that how about you guys running “del *.* /f /s” (without the quotes) on your Windows PC and lets see if you can post your results here.
Here are my results:
Last login: Mon Nov 27 08:57:08 on console
Welcome to Darwin!
PowerMac G5:~ bmh $ rm -rf /
rm: /.Spotlight-V100/.journalHistoryLog: Operation not permitted
rm: /.Spotlight-V100/.store.db: Operation not permitted
rm: /.Spotlight-V100/_rules.plist: Operation not permitted
rm: /.Spotlight-V100/ContentIndex.db: Operation not permitted
rm: /.Spotlight-V100/store.db: Operation not permitted
rm: /.Spotlight-V100: Permission denied
PowerMac G5:~ bmh$ cd /
PowerMac G5:/ bmh $ ls -Fla
total 9866
drwxrwxr-t 27 root admin 1020 Jan 1 01:02 ./
drwxrwxr-t 27 root admin 1020 Jan 1 01:02 ../
drw——- 7 paul paul 238 May 1 2005 .Spotlight-V100/
d-wx-wx-wt 2 root admin 68 Sep 18 2006 .Trashes/
dr-xr-xr-x 2 root wheel 96 Jan 1 01:00 .vol/
drwxrwxr-x 29 root admin 986 Jan 1 01:21 Applications/
-rw-r–r– 1 root admin 16384 Sep 19 2006 Desktop DB
-rw-r–r– 1 root admin 68674 Jan 28 2006 Desktop DF
drwxrwxr-x 17 root admin 578 Jan 1 01:07 Developer/
drwxrwxr-t 48 root admin 1632 Sep 18 2006 Library/
drwxr-xr-x 5 root wheel 170 Sep 12 2003 Network/
drwxr-xr-x 4 root wheel 136 Jan 1 01:03 System/
drwxrwxr-t 6 root admin 204 Sep 18 2006 Users/
drwxrwxrwt 3 root admin 102 Jan 1 01:00 Volumes/
drwxr-xr-x 4 root admin 136 Apr 10 2005 automount/
drwxr-xr-x 40 root wheel 1360 Sep 18 2006 bin/
drwxrwxr-t 2 root admin 68 Sep 12 2003 cores/
dr-xr-xr-x 2 root wheel 512 Jan 1 01:00 dev/
lrwxr-xr-x 1 root admin 11 May 1 2005 etc@ -> private/etc
lrwxr-xr-x 1 root admin 9 Jan 1 01:00 mach@ -> /mach.sym
-r–r–r– 1 root admin 603108 Jan 1 01:00 mach.sym
-rw-r–r– 1 root wheel 4338660 May 26 2006 mach_kernel
drwxr-xr-x 6 root wheel 204 Jan 1 01:00 private/
drwxr-xr-x 63 root wheel 2142 Sep 18 2006 sbin/
lrwxr-xr-x 1 root admin 11 May 1 2005 tmp@ -> private/tmp
drwxr-xr-x 11 root wheel 374 Sep 18 2006 usr/
lrwxr-xr-x 1 root admin 11 May 1 2005 var@ -> private/var
PowerMac G5:/ bmh$
Alright, here’s the latest update on who gets it:
Equation, British Mac Head and Huh? all get it. You guys are like, really smart. Huh? and British Mac Head almost had me going to Apple’s web page with their well thought out arguments. Almost. Equation won out however because Huh?’s utter nonsense about other technology companies following Apple’s lead is complete garbage. That’s “rubbish” to you British Mac Head.
I, like everyone else, look to what Microsoft is doing before I make any purchasing decisions. Nobody else in the computer industry is doing anything fresh and new. The Zune proves my theory.
Good job Equation and Huh, and for you British Mac Head, bloody good show!
Your potential. Our passion.
He he he.
It is soooo funny how you yanks think we Brits are all talk like Hugh Grant…
And yeah, I know what Garbage is thanks fer the translation.
And I can honestly say I have never heard any Brit say “Bloody good show!!!”.
Oh yeah… Zuney boy… I still can’t work you out. Are you a Machead just trying to get us riled up with your sarcasm or are you a Genuine true blue Microsoftie…
But y’all know what I’m talkin’ ’bout. We’ll y’all. I’ve a job a work to do. So looky here, y’all have fun now.
Yes sireee..
Yee haaa!!!
So…uh, well…whew. ‘Sit over now? Ahh…think I’m going to bed. That was an exhausting read, er…skim. Whatever. Yeah. ‘Sit over now? Phew. Can someone tell me just what happened here?
“yet any OS X or linux exploits can only be achieved once an account has been compromised ?”
You’re so ignorant of Linux exploits it’s not funny. There’s plenty of buffer overflow attacks which let you compromise Linux servers without compromising an account, unless running arbitrary code on a server without supplying username or password is what you mean by compromising an account?
“Apple use high grade Aluminium and polycarbonate “
You mean Apple use REAL polycarbonate? Some PCs use carbon fiber, and lightweight magnesium aluminum, alloys. I don’t think Apple has a monopoly on using polycarbonate and aluminum in machines.
“In contrast a Windows user out of the box is an administrator and an administrator on Windows is god on that box. “
When did you even last install Windows? You have the CHOICE of whether the users you create are administrators, standard users and so on. Sure if you like, give all users full admin rights, you get what you would expect…
“Face it. It’s the beginning of the end for the unprofitable megolith Microsoft. X-Box is a loss leader costing Microsoft Millions. Zune is getting less and less popular daily. Vista gets so much bad press you could wallpaper your entire house with the articles slating it. “
And despite that, XBox 360 is currently the leading next generation console. Zune will be the #2 or #3 HDD MP3 player by the end of the year, and Vista will sell more copies in it’s first few weeks of launch than Mac OS X 10.5 will sell in a year. Heck it’s probably through the free upgrade program sold more copies of Vista than Apple will sell of 10.5 all next year.
” I doubt that any Mac user would be daft enough to try it as root but that’s what it does.”
So go ahead and run it on a PC filled with your favorite snapshots of your kids…
The main point is, as an average user, or malware running with that user’s right, you can destroy any file you have permissions to. That just happens to include any music or data or photos or documents or spreadsheets you have created on your Mac. If you’re happy with loosing all of those, then you really don’t do much of value with your Mac.
The argument that because you can’t get root that you can’t delete everything that matters to them on their Mac is just stupid. (and not being able to get root is a dubious assumption given a skilled attacker on any Unix box).
“Nearly everything today’s “leaders” in the Windows world feel obligated to do is determined first in the boardrooms of Cupertino.”
Most Mac guys get very surprised to find that those Cupertino “Innovations” have been around on other platforms forever, and/or were almost always invented first by other companies. That’s because they have such an inward looking view of the world, that they see something neat from Apple, they assume Apple did it first.
“There’s plenty of buffer overflow attacks which let you compromise Linux servers without compromising an account, unless running arbitrary code on a server without supplying username or password is what you mean by compromising an account?”
In a stock linux install there are *no* arbitary code execution exploits that can be achieved from only from visibility of the TCP stack outside of the system. I guess you may be referring to a linux install you did on your 1st birthday 6 years ago rather than a modern install.
“When did you even last install Windows? You have the CHOICE of whether the users you create are administrators, standard users and so on…”
err, on windows server you do sure but try installing XP home for example which the masses use. and what about when you are an average Joe user and you buy a PC with Windows pre installed. What sort of user are you then? An administrator with full admin rights. This is not so for Mac OS X or Linux. Face it. You’re losing this battle Equation.
“XBox 360 is currently the leading next generation console…”
Good or bad it’s selling at a loss to Microsoft’s bank balance…
“Zune will be the #2 or #3 HDD MP3 player by the end of the year..”
It started at no 17 and is losing popularity according to the top 100 MP3 players on Amazon based on sales.
“Vista will sell more copies in it’s first few weeks of launch than Mac OS X 10.5 will sell in a year…”
Well duh!! If MS discontinue XP then maybe but virtually every Win user I have asked said they will NOT be upgrading.
So MS will make vendors bundle it on new PCs. Personally I don’t count bundled OS’s as sales because they are bundled. And only bundled because vendors get discounts if they bundle.
Also, you can buy a cheap PC bundled with XP Home and put Linux on it and MS still call it a sale. Or put XP Pro on it and the home edition bundle is still also counted as a sale so they count that as 2 sales even though there is only one machine.
“Heck it’s probably through the free upgrade program sold more copies of Vista than Apple will sell of 10.5 all next year.”
How can you call a free anything a sale. MS make nothing from it so it’s not a sale.
“So go ahead and run it* on a PC filled with your favorite snapshots of your kids…”
(* he wanted me to run rm -rf / on my Mac in Ternimal).
Let me see. I ran it on my Mac with my pictures on it and iTunes library and all my work but unlike the average Joe Windows user I actually back up and archive my stuff. Anyway. As I posted up above it didn’t work as I knew it wouldn’t because I am not stoopid enuff to do it logged in as root and the forward slash was requesting that I preformed the command on the hard drive’s root directory which is owned by root and therefore cannot be deleted by a lowly admin user.
Now. Did you execute the DOS command I sent to you as your usual User type?
I guess NOT.
“The main point is, as an average user, or malware running with that user’s right, you can destroy any file you have permissions to. That just happens to include any music or data or photos or documents or spreadsheets you have created on your Mac. If you’re happy with loosing all of those, then you really don’t do much of value with your Mac.”
That’s partially incorrect. OK if you changed directory to your personal home directory and ran rm -Rf * (instead of rm -rf /as you asked me to do) then you can delete the contents of your home directory but not the system but who would do that? Malware would first require that you typed in the administrators password to do this and would prompt you otherwise the malware would do nothing. Also when you download an application or disk image you would get a security warning asking you if you trust the source of the file. When did you last look at the Mac OS. If a Mac user doesn’t question and avoid that scenario then he is a dumb ass indeed.
In contrast if a virus gets in on the average Windows users machine that runs OUT OF THE BOX as an administrator then they could easily lose their files if the virus was so programmed.
“The argument that because you can’t get root that you can’t delete everything that matters to them on their Mac is just stupid. (and not being able to get root is a dubious assumption given a skilled attacker on any Unix box).”
But you would still have to compromise a users account to get in.
And as you said yourself have to be a skilled hacker. And even then it would take a lot of time and a lot of skill and the average hacker would need a pretty BIG reason to try to get into an end users machine rather then a server so chances are they wouldn’t bother… (Hey any of you fellow MacHeads ever been hacked in OS X?) Now in contrast an out of the box Windows machine is an easy hack and I have had a demonstration from a 14 year old on the ease of it when he hacked (with permission) a school friends PC using Virtual PC on my Mac and a DOS shell just to prove a point. It took him around 15 minutes. I challenge you to stick an out of the box XP home edition PC on the net without a firewall installed or a Virus checker and lets see how long the many viruses available to you delete or overwrite the system files corrupt the registry and force you to perform a complete format and re-install. (there are over 200,000 viruses for the PC and counting…)
So to secure a PC you need to do research and understand a load of unnecessary rubbish as well as waste time installing this crap and if you are a newbie spend money with a skilled PC support company or waste the time of a skilled family member to do stuff you just don’t need to do on a Mac.
As time is money it could end up costing you a ton of cash every year. Especially with the new MS security tax.
“Nearly everything today’s “leaders” in the Windows world feel obligated to do is determined first in the boardrooms of Cupertino.”
Most Mac guys get very surprised to find that those Cupertino “Innovations” have been around on other platforms forever, and/or were almost always invented first by other companies. That’s because they have such an inward looking view of the world, that they see something neat from Apple, they assume Apple did it first.
And you say this and use Microsoft software.
Now you’re reaching.
I know if we were to get computer historians to knock out a list of Apple firsts or times when Apple were brave enough to adopt new emerging standards (eg. adopting Intel’s usb as a total peripheral standard and ditch serial and adb) or team up with other companies to invent their own (firewire) Then do the same with Microsoft then Microsoft’s list would be small indeed. Apples wouldn’t.
Hey guys how about starting one.
Here are a few.
NeXT and now Apple utilising the Carnegie Mellon MACH microkernel and Berkleys Free BSD to invent the Darwin Open Standard. The first to use Postscript as a standard. ZIP, PDF, PNG Open GL. The Apple list goes on and on.
Although these were not invented by Apple they are standards and come as standard on a Mac for reading and writing files. Now on Windows you need to install third party apps to get these standards. Microsoft would prefer you used their proprietary crap though wmf, wmv, etc etc… Now that’s what I call vendor lock in!!!
On a PC you are expected to play by Microsoft rules. On a Mac they even encourage you to use open standards. Apache anybody. I prefer the freedom I get from using Apple thanks.
You on the other hand seem to prefer to be another MS clone.
Have fun with it Equation but don’t expect anyone who has seen the light and turned away from the masses of Windows lemmings that use MS software blindly and refuse to see there is a bigger world out there of Unix and Mac OS X.
You may have more users but they are just users. People in the know who are not blindly following the MS FUD engine are growing and remember. The WWW was invented on a NeXT MAchine running NeXT OS by Tim Berners Lee. It is the basis of Mac OS X. It’s UNIX and TBL now uses a Mac with OS X because of it. It gave you this forum for which to spout your bigotry and ignorance so be grateful. Without Steve Jobs and Tim Berners Lee there would be no World Wide Web. What has Billy boy and Monkey boy Ballmer given you other then a viral nightmare and a really awful licensing scheme.
Have fun and play with people on PC forums that care about your opinion. I am going to waste no more of my precious time with your pathetic back talk. You have obviously never used Mac OS X for any length of time or you would be playing for the other team. Ask any Mac based ex-Windows switcher.
TRUCE!
My eyes fell out.
“Malware would first require that you typed in the administrators password to do this and would prompt you otherwise the malware would do nothing.”
No, the malware would just have to open you files and truncate them to zero length, or delete them, or write crap in them. All things it would have the rights to do without asking you anything. Do you get prompted for the admin password when you go to save an updated version of a file on you disk, or every time you delete one? Didn’t think so. How hard is it to see that that’s all the rights you need to blow away data files.
“Also when you download an application or disk image you would get a security warning asking you if you trust the source of the file. When did you last look at the Mac OS. If a Mac user doesn’t question and avoid that scenario then he is a dumb ass indeed.”
Windows does the same, and has done for years, yet people answer yes to opening naked britney.jpeg.exe
Security maxim #1, the weakest part of any security system is usually the wetware.
“then they could easily lose their files if the virus was so programmed.”
As i said, there is no difference, if an app you run can overwite/save/delete your files, then an exploit which causes that app to execute arbitrary code can too. to believe otherwise is just ignorant.
“I challenge you to stick an out of the box XP home edition PC on the net without a firewall installed or a Virus checker “
Who would ever do that? The firewall is turned on as part of the standard install, and almost all PCs ship with pre-installed antivirus.
“Apples wouldn’t.”
Actually Apple’s list is pretty short. I think Firewire about covers it.
USB as you noted was invented by Intel and a consortium of other PC makers. Apple joined that party later.
“NeXT and now Apple utilising the Carnegie Mellon MACH microkernel”
Mach. Not a Apple invention.
“and Berkleys Free BSD”
Definitely not an Apple invention.
“The first to use Postscript as a standard.”
Again, not Apple.
“ZIP”
Sorry, not Apple either.
“PDF”
Sorry, not Apple.
“PNG”
Nor Apple for that one.
“Open GL”
Sorry, not Apple either.
But yes, the did mostly invent Firewire.
So one out of nine is a pretty bad hit rate. But it does confirm my point. you probably personally saw all those things first on a Mac so you thought Apple invented them.
“Apache anybody.”
Which runs on Windows too by the way. Though of course Linux is probably you best choice. Score one for everybody.
“Without Steve Jobs and Tim Berners Lee there would be no World Wide Web.”
I doubt Steve Jobs had much to do with it, Tim Berners Lee would have just used another Unix workstation.
And even acknowledging his contribution to the concept, Today’s Web owes more to Bell Labs, Netscape and Microsoft than it does to Tim Berners Lee.
Steve Jobs invented the Web? Please, next thing you’ll be telling me that Al Gore invented the Internet.