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Good for Mozilla! Apple's insane policy regarding the iPhone must be fought at ALL costs! No company should be allowed to get away with this!

I believe you have the right to jailbreak your iPhone, but also believe that Apple has the right to implement any measure they want to prevent that because the IP belongs to them.

Jailbreak your iPhone, it is great, but once you do it, you are in your own.

BTW, why the hell does a iPod adapter for the 2009 Toyota Tacoma cost 250 Dlls???? I could buy the all equipment for that...

Hur-Ray! for freedom of Choice.... If MS only allows MS approved programs on its computers Mac Heads would be screaming bloody murder!

Mac_Atty is SPOT ON! The gutless fan boys would scream at MS if they did this.

Feb 18, 09 - 10:53 am Comment from: macaholic

Are there no alternative browsers available in the AppStore?

I heard there was. Or are they variations on WebKit?

I must confess to a certain sense of smugness seeing the fight over access to the iPhone from some app developers. Especially since app development from some quarters, for the Mac, has always lagged the Windows versions or not even existed. So now that Apple is kicking ass and taking names, they all want a piece? Drop dead, i say. We survived without you in the past, we will do fine in the future.

'Suck it, Trebek"

Feb 18, 09 - 10:56 am Comment from: Demon

Opera and Mozilla is just sour grapes cause Apple didn't use their foundations for Safari, Because they were slow, buggy, too far behind in supporting the newest web standards and bloated.

Feb 18, 09 - 10:58 am Comment from: macaholic

iPod adapter for my Camry? around 400 bucks? WTF Toyota? One the other hand, it did come with an audio input jack, and an accessory socket. so was doable for under 30, the less pretty way.
In fairness to Toyota, their iPod connector does allow control of the iPod from the car stereo. Connect in the glove box, out of sight, cotrol thru car unit. Nice, but pricey.

UHH, the App store is NOT the only way o put apps on your phone without jail breaking.

MDN Word: Lack - As in this request lacks merit.

@Mac_Atty

MS doesn't make computers; that's the point. Most American cellular service providers put restrictions on how software can be used on the cellphones they allow access to their system. The operators are the most important determinant of the conditions for jailbreaking.

Feb 18, 09 - 11:10 am Comment from: Demon

@ Mac_Atty

Actually Most Mac fans would cheer that MS is taking control of the dirty foul smelling swamp that is the pile of poorly written crapware that is the pool of Software for Windows. Were Windows software Vendors recycle old outdated code over and over again to milk money out of the Windows Sheep. Kind of like Microsoft well 7 versions of Windows Vista. Now that the customer is locked in and they can charge what they want but MS is still unwilling to take responsibility for it's bugs and security issues buy paying for the customer's third party software to take care of the issues but, MS will over charge you for a new copy of Windows 7 Ultimate which should be the only version available and it should be sold for at most $39.95. (based on the age of the kernel and major code used for I/O.)

Despite what the idiots Mac_Atty and rattymouse believe, I am very pleased that Apple Inc. is protecting it's products in this way. If Microsoft did the same they would have a more secure OS. If you don't like Apple's products and rules, buy something else. The problem is 90% of the other products on the market that compete with Apple are all crap, inlcuding Micrososft's. Windows over Mac OS X, no contest. Windows mobile over iPhone OS X, no contest. These two idiots are just angry becasue they know Apple's offereings are superior, but don't want to play by Apple's rules and are relegated to using Microsoft's third rates offerings and the best they can do is lash out at people that are OK with Apple's rules. I will gladly sacrifice a little freedom of choice for a secure operating system and the ability to surf the web without fear of viruses and malware. You have to give something to get something. Life is not fair, get over it.

I just turned on Firefox on my iMac because Safari keeps slowing because of uncontrolled pop-ups and Firefox stopped them cold. This is with Block popups turned on in Safari. If Firefox can block them, so should Safari. The delay caused by the popups is serious. Anybody got a solution?

Feb 18, 09 - 11:35 am Comment from: Jay-Z

Apple doesn't need to go to the extent of calling jailbreakers criminals. It just makes them seem totalitarian. They have every right to protect the iPhone and their IP, but a simple "jailbreak it and you're on your own" policy is more than sufficient. I think most reasonable people can respect that policy.

Feb 18, 09 - 11:36 am Comment from: Jay-Z

@ hairytunes:

Adblock. It's free and I one or two pop-ups sneak through a year.

The same ruling would then be used as precedent for unauthorized Mac desktop/notebook clone manufacturers, which would then diminish Apple's operating revenues.

Before you pick a side on this one, think.

@Demon

I prefer Firefox over safari personally, because of the wealth of plugins available for it like download helper.

@Apple Fanboy said

"I will gladly sacrifice a little freedom of choice for a secure operating system and the ability to surf the web without fear of viruses and malware."

"Those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither"

- Benjamin Franklin.

Apple Fanboy-
So now people who want to modify a product that they own are idiots? Let's see here. I pay for a product. It's mine, nobody else's. It's not leased, it's not borrowed. Why the hell shouldn't I be able to install whatever software I want to on MY phone? Do I expect Apple to support it if I do so? Of course not!
If I make changes to my iPhone, fine, void the warranty. That's pretty much how most other products work. No one has yet to offer up a good reason of why Apple controlling the software on the iPhone this tightly is a good idea. The iPhone is a (very) mobile computer, and unless you think Apple should also control the software you install on your Mac this tightly, what grounds do you have other than "Apple says so"?
Would people *really* want Apple to control what apps you could install on your Mac? After all, if you didn't like the policy, you could just buy a different computer.

I say let people install whatever they want on their phone. If the software breaks something, tough nuggies.

I love how everyone jumped all over Microsoft for what they did with IE in the past, but no one seems to care that Apple won't even allow another browser on an iPhone. At least MS didn't publicly deny anyone the ability to install a browser other than IE on their PC's. MS was wrong, and they certainly should have suffered more consequences than they did for their actions. And what Apple is doing is just as wrong, if not more so.

No one seems to realize that once you hand over the cash for an iPhone, it's no longer Apple's iPhone. It's yours.

@Paul Johnson

No, a lot of it is Apple's doing. Apple is being seriously Draconian in what it allows in the app store and not. Like not offering an app, because it could be considered offensive.

@Paul Johnson @Demon @Apple Fanboy

Competition is supposed to be a good thing.

If alternative browsers were available for the iPhone then it would lead to the creation of better mobile browsers for the iPhone over time. We don't let Apple tell us what we can and can't install on our macs. It shouldn't be any different with the iPhone.

@Jay-Z

People wouldn't be Jailbreaking their iPhones if Apple's App store policy was a little more open. Allowing users to download alternative browsers, media players, and not banning apps for no good reason would be a start.

I think, Apple refusing non-Webkit browsers to work on the iPhone is based on technical decisions. Meaning it would suck the batteries dry. Webkit is pretty much baked into OS X (all versions) so it shouldn't cause that much drain. Safari already uses a lot of memory; I can't imagine Firefox performance. Opera is efficient but is there a smartphone with two browsers? Firefox and Opera could also be a sidedoor for the entrance of Flash. Which does suck CPU like mad, not to mention UI irregularities.

Much as I like Apple, CRIMINAL penalties for users who bought their iPhones is way over the top. Is this article even true? Hard to believe...

@shiva105

Good job bashing Fan Boy! Your write up was excellent and Fan Boy has now been exposed as the fraud that he is! Apple MUST be stopped with this. No one, INCLUDING Fan Boy would tolerate Apple's iPhone policy if they tried it on the Mac. That PROVES that they are gutless frauds.

Feb 18, 09 - 12:05 pm Comment from: Demon

@ Jake

Apple is never going to go after a customer for jail-breaking their iPhone. What Apple is attempting to do is protect their IP and to prevent Commercialization of Jail-breaking the iPhone and prevent the cost of supporting jail-broken iphones when there are problems.
They also don't want commercial software vendors selling commercial software to jail-broken iPhones.
It's not really about the enduser customer jail-breaking the iPhone at all. It's about the commercialization of jail-breaking and jail-broken iPhones.
Apple is also attempting to protect the average consumer grade user who get talked into jail-breaking their iPhone from being taken advantage of despite how the EFF and Netscape may make it appear.

@redc said

"I think, Apple refusing non-Webkit browsers to work on the iPhone is based on technical decisions. Meaning it would suck the batteries dry."

We can only guess what the iPhone versions of Firefox and Opera would be like. They'd probably be optimized for efficiency.

The problem is that Apple would probably ban those apps from the app store, regardless of how good they are, because they'd be competing against Safari.

I also have a feeling not letting flash on the iPhone is less about technical specifications and more about not wanting any competition for quicktime.

Sounds like Apple is going the way of Microsoft. They are trying to monopolize the browser market by not allowing any other default browsers. It's downhill for apple as we know it.

Feb 18, 09 - 12:09 pm Comment from: British Mac Head

I think it's pretty silly of Apple to make their customers into criminals just for Jailbreaking their iPhones. People only do this because there are too many restrictions on what you can do with it. Tell yourself that it's OK for Apple to have these restrictions ad then watch the 1984 Mac commercial. See how some of you feel then.

I agree that Apple's only support for Jailbroken iPhones should be to point the user in the direction of iTunes factory restore but thats it!

IMHO, the EFF & Mozilla would be doing Apple a favour if Apple loses this battle.

Imagine Apple prosecuting a 16 year old kid for jailbreaking his iPhone. The uproar would be terrible press for Apple and no Machead wants that!

Surely Steve doesn't deal much with Apple's legal team. I mean he was 50% party to "the blue box" along with Woz, come on. It would be hypocritical.

There is way too much emphasis on protecting IP. Yes they should go after competitors who copy but you have to draw a compromise when it comes to customers.

After all, an iPhone customer can end up being a Mac customer. That's what we want isn't it? I would hate to think that people think if you use a Mac you can't install whatever you want on it without Apple's say so.

And the iPhone runs OS X so why are they concerned about Jailbreaking causing instability. Apple need to open up the mobile platform to developers.

I also think they should allow tethering at a reduced data rate. So you can move the odd file over the net if you need to.

Feb 18, 09 - 12:13 pm Comment from: Demon

@ Name

I hate and loath Browser Plug-ins and the bloat that they add not to get too down them but they add complexity and bugs that the browser doesn't need. FireFox has enough bugs all on it's own with adding in the bugs from plug-ins. But, if you love plug-in of FireFox good for you and hey FireFox is 1000 times better the IE.

So why, exactly, is Mozilla commenting on this? Do they want to be able to legally offer Minimo for jailbroken iPhones?

On the one hand, I feel that "if you jailbreak, you're on your own" is fair, but unfortunately the carrier network folks no doubt feel very differently. Would you want one jailbroken iPhone running a rogue app to completely nuke cellphone reception in your area? Of course that problem doesn't apply to iPod Touch, so perhaps the focus should be on jailbreaking just iPhones.

Oh, and Name: that Ben Franklin "quote" is both taken out of context and badly paraphrased. The correct quote is "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." But of course it's not nearly as pithy as writing your own version and sticking Franklin's name on the end. See http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin for more details.

Feb 18, 09 - 12:23 pm Comment from: Demon

@ Name

Competition is a good thing and the apps in the store have plenty Competition with each other. Apple isn't saying once their is one App that does this it can be the only App. No way their are 10 + apps that may provide a similar function.

One of the things here that has been overlooked is Safari on the iPhone is a core component of the iPhone's OS and it's UI it's not just a web browser on a Mac or PC. The iPhone OS is limited technically to Safari and adding a Browser like Firefox or Opera to the iPhone may very well break the iPhone's OS and UI after all FireFox and Opera both what to take over all browser functions when they are installed and that is bad on the iPhone.

Feb 18, 09 - 12:40 pm Comment from: Big Al

Look, it's not Apple, it's the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA).

The Labels used the DMCA to take illegal music downloaders to court and it hurt a few teenagers and their parents. It hurt The Labels a lot more than it helped them.

Apple knows taking their own customers to court is a major black eye for Apple. Apple also knows that breaking the DMCA must still remain illegal with no exemptions.

That way Apple can keep it's closed iPhone/iPod system and continue to make jailbreaking as difficult and annoying as possible.

We all know the closed system is preventing iPhones and iPods from becoming as useless as Windows Mobile and Zune devices.

When you buy an Apple iPod touch or iPhone, you know it is a closed device.

There is no excuse for buyers remorse because you can't alter it the way you do Linux boxen that you build yourselves.

Feb 18, 09 - 12:54 pm Comment from: MacintoshSoftwareList.com

There are several browsers on the app store for iphone. Incognito, Privately, Edge and others. They use webkit but have different fetures than safari. For example, Privately is free and it will not save browser data after you close it. This lets you keep your search info private.

you sound like children.

@Demon, that's the way to take it to the absurd level. Comparing Freedom as a whole to Firefox vs. Safari. If Apple feels that it is not time to open the iPhone up to Firefox or Opera, it's their choice. Again, the iPhone is very new and if you don't like the rules don't play. Again, we are talking about the freedom of choice between mobile phone browsers and the ability to install fart apps, not the freedom of speech or the freedom to vote.

@shiva105
Yes, if it destroys the whole. The American public has proven they cannot be trusted if not fairly regulated... I emphasize "fairly" and no I'm not the one to judge what fairly means that's why we have the right to vote. The economy is in a mess becasue people abuse freedom. Windows is a mess because idiots like rattymouse don't know when to say when. They change and alter and modify until the institution is no longer viable. If you will read the other comments on here you will see that there are some very good reasons why Apple cannot open up the iPhone for every piece of software. Apple will eventually lossen the reigns once the hardware and software mature, but now their approach is the right one, in my opinion. As I said you have to protect the people from themselves sometimes. The dust up over this is because some people hate to hear the word no. If you don't like the rules, don't play. Go buy a Windows Mobile phone. And your correlation between this and what Microsoft did with IE is another great example of taking it to the absurd level.

It doesn't matter about this jailbreaking because the first two year contracts are due to expire in just a couple of months. The law forbids Apple from restricting the use of your phone with other carriers once the contract is up and you choose to go elsewhere. We shall see how they unlock the phones after a couple of years of locking them up unsuccessfully. Or what about the phones that are handed down or sold? Are they going to demand that you use att? Apple is moving in towards the areas of monopoly and the Copyright office saw it right off and I believe that is why they granted the exemption the first time.
The fact remains that the device is a licensed phone with the FCC. If Apple wants to sell a phone without bells and whistles they are free to do so. Just like I can make alterations to the programing of the computer in my car to run more efficiently and at a higher performance levels, the tweaks and modification that are made and given away free of charge are applications that I am free to choose.

Feb 18, 09 - 05:25 pm Comment from: Demon

@ Apple Fanboy

I think you missed something, because I completely agree. I think if Apple feels another Non Webkit based Browser like Firefox or Opera or IE would cause even the slightest of problems or security issues, Apple has the absolute right to say no. And under the DMCA Apple should have the right to legally protect this IP from Commercial or Semi-Commercial software vendors looking to encourage or help facilitate the jail-breaking of iPhones or the iPod Touch and the EFF, Netscape and Skype are wrong in their request to grant and exemption to allow violation of the DMCA in the case of the iPhone/iPod touch.

Further, my view is competition is good and with-in the iTunes App Store there is plenty of competition between Apps. If a Software vendor does not want to compete in the Apps Store then they just don't want to compete. Netscape, Skype and Opera just don't want to play by the rules that Apple has provided. They want special consideration and to be exempt from playing by the rules. They want to exploit Apple IP beyond what Apple and the Cell Carries have deemed as appropriate. They nor the EFF know what might be damaged by Jail-breaking nor do they know what of Apple IP made be exposed or how that might effect the usability or the suitability of the iPhone all they see is it's a new and innovate platform that they currently being excluded from being on and it's killing them.

Feb 18, 09 - 11:38 pm Comment from: HazMatt

I mentioned this before, but I jailbreak my iPhone to run Cycorder (video recorder app). I also wanted to congratulate you guys on an interesting conversation... A somewhat rare occurance on MDN (or most tech news sites).

The EU should haul Apple into court (the U.S. is a wuss) and force it to pull out the 2X4 it shoved up its ass. Steve Jobs's head would pop out behind it.

"Those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither"

- Benjamin Franklin.

PATRIOT Act.

Feb 19, 09 - 11:09 am Comment from: macaholic

@ @ Name

Well done, nicely played!

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