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Hopefully malware, etc, doesn't follow soon, eh?

This development could mark a path for third-party developers to create "real" applications for Apple's iPhone.

Yeah, until a firmware update disables it. Why are hackers so desperate to make devices do what their creators don't intend? Don't they understand you almost never end up with a usuable device that way?

I wonder though, how many legitimate third-party developers are willing to resort to a hack to install apps on an iPhone, especially if and update to the iPhone software could disable the hack? At best, I see it as marginal, and I also wonder if Apple will eventually release "sanctioned" apps through iTMS, as they do now with iPod games (as suggested by others).

Hmm, I wonder what Apple will do with this? Do they have the right to squash independent development like this? I expect they care, but maybe they'll give nightwatch a bit of leash and see how far he can get. Will be interesting to see the reaction

How long did that "ceack" take? It will take Apple just the amount of time to upload an update to disable it. Otherwise, iPhones will be crashing all over the place as Windows sufferers misuse them in droves.

I agree with Woody when he says  will release sanctioned Applications through iTunes, much like they do now with iPod games.

Personally, I'm sick of these moaning people who want it all. "It's my right to have apps on iPhone etc. etc."

There's a reason why  don't allow anyone to develop apps for iPhone - do people really want it to end up like WinMobile?

I agree, the best way to protect the hardware and integrity of the software is to submit to apple and let them tear it apart and give their seal of approval. You won't find a better platform or location to sell your wares anyway other than at Apple.com

Better for everyone!

Exactly Jim,

We need more sheep like yourself. Obey everything Apple says. Its not my phone, I'm just leasing it. Because Apple knows whats best for me.

Would you feel the same if when Leopard comes out, Apple announces that only Apple approved software will be available for it? Or that third part development would be closed entirely because we don't want to bring the internet down with some rogue software app.

Apple controlling software delivery to the iPhone, just like other media (music, videos) thru iTunes is a great idea. I can't tell you how many times I've had to reinitialize my old WM5 phone due to some third party app, installed with good intentions, that didn’t do exactly what I wanted and ended up crashing the phone. Especially when you start adding multiple third party apps, many of them not compatible with each other. Apple is all about maintaining control of the entire experience, that is why their solutions remain so elegant and trouble free.

This is exactly what the iPhone needs. Hopefully SJ will see it for what it is worth....3rd party apps=tons more sales. With 3rd party apps a dev kits the iPhone will finally truly be a personal computer.

Just my $0.02

Comment to Jeff

Jeff your analogy of the iphone to leapard is false. Apple announced to the world before iphone was released that it would be a closed system. This left potential buyers with 2 choices ... 1, Buy it knowing it was a closed system, or, 2. Don't buy it. I want my iphone to continue to work as specd by Apple without worrying that some ambitious malcontent decides what is best for the rest of us. This does open the door for all types of mal ware to find itself to the iphone.

MDN missed the link to the story:

http://iphone.fiveforty.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

Freedom is about CHOICE:

You can choose to use the application as the manufacturer intended to.

Or you can choose to tweak and hack it any way you want, if you're willing to lose your warranty.

It's just like cars. You can choose to keep it standard, the way it came from the factory (keep it "classic", if you want.)

Or you can modify it, put the big rims, alter the engine, gadgets, body, lower it, raise it, you name it.

In discussions like this, I remember WHY was Apple created, in the first place: To free people from the IBM-related restrictions. The Apple II was a computer designed to CREATE, ADD and REMOVE options at your leisure (I'm the proud owner of an original 1979 Apple II, plus other nice old computers, like a NextStation)

And, aren't Macs the computers for creative people? And isn't programming the top creative activity to do with computers?

It's all in choice. If you choose to be just an user and use only what Apple (or whomever dictates), I'm OK with that. It's safer for sure.

But that should not be a reason to bash programmers who try new things and push technology to the limits. If you don't know programming or the spirit of learning more, then your comments about hackers (REAL hackers, not "crackers") are somehow out of line.

No offense to anybody.

Surely it's only a matter of time before Apple increases the amount of RAM to 8GB and 16GB and then creates a virtual sandbox in which the applications can play.

As a disclaimer:

Of course, my previous comment does NOT condone programming for the pure sake of destructive activities: Virus, malware, etc.

Programming (as anything else) is a responsibility. You should be free to practice it, but respect for others in vital for it to flourish.

@Jeff
"Would you feel the same if when Leopard comes out, Apple announces that only Apple approved software will be available for it? Or that third part development would be closed entirely because we don't want to bring the internet down with some rogue software app."

This is not the same thing. Imagine for one second that you witness a terrible accident, you try to dial 911, but your phone crashes and you simply can not get it to work. The iPhone needs to paramountly be a phone, any thing else is secondary.

If you can understand this then your Leopard analogy goes out the window, because your computer in NOT a phone and vise-versa. Whether you can grasp this or not is irrelevant because in this case Apple does know best.

Folks, independent apps WILL be developed for iPhone. No question about it. However, install at your own risk.

For those of you ranting on about freedom of choice and the Apple ball and chain, just remember your words after you've installed some 3rd party app that trashes you device's functionality and the fly-by-night "company" that developed it disappears from the web and there's no way to uninstall the app and Apple tech support declines involvement.

I say more power to anyone who successfully hacks the iPhone. It's not like any additional apps will be forced on anyone who doesn't want them. If I want to modify a stock product, why should you have any issues with it? Doesn't sound like anyone is trying to force any 3rd party apps on anyone here. If you don't want 3rd party apps, don't install them. You have absolutely no standing to dictate to me what I do with a product I own, as long as I am not breaking any laws.

Some people need to lighten up.

If I break a product by trying to hack it, it's my own damn fault. I have no right to complain to the manufacturer. In the case of witnessing an accident, if a hack on my phone causes it to malfunction, well, that's tough nuggies for me.

@Dave

Who is forcing you to download future 3rd party iPhone apps to your phone? You think the fact that they will *exist* will bring down your phone or collapse the network? Get serious dude. If OSX is so secure (as we all like to brag so much about) and the iPhone is on OSX, then how are these apps going to "open the door for all types of mal ware to find itself to the iphone"? (your typo).

I'm with the people who want choice. I don't believe allowing them to have that choice will affect Dave's use of his iPhone in the slightest.

"Mac-nugget" -- Apple always knows best, blah, blah. Don't be such a sheep.

The good news is they did a Hello World program.

The bad news is that for the iPhone any application has to be written in malbolge.

"Imagine for one second that you witness a terrible accident, you try to dial 911, but your phone crashes and you simply can not get it to work."

In fact, I carry around 3 phones from different providers, a CB Radio, and a signal flare just in case I witness a horrible accident and one of my phones crashes.

In other words: Bullshit.

The 911 argument is rubbish. If that were the case, I would carry a phone that was just a phone. Obviously, there's less to go wrong with a phone that is just a phone and doesn't have innovative interfaces, iPods, web browsers, etc. Keep It Simple, Stupid.

So if you're so concerned with Emergency 911 situations, you shouldn't be using an iPhone. Hell, my officemate has an iPhone and she's had to reboot it 3 times since she bought it ("Peter? The buttons aren't working again...") You should have a simple phone.

To use me as an example, I don't have an iPhone. I would love an iPhone. However, I use my phone as an "emergency" device. It usually sits in my car's glovebox or in my backpack when I bike. The only time I use it is if something is wrong. When my roomate took a tumble on her bike, I used my cellphone to call her sister for help. When I had a flat tire on my bike, I called my roomate to let her know I'd be late.

My phone is good, solid, and dependable--everything that a phone used for "emergencies" should be. All the cruft has been removed. So the argument that installing third-party apps on your phone will somehow cause it to crash when you need it the most is rubbish. If you are depending on your phone for emergencies, you're an idiot to use some multifunction device to begin with.

So stop with the FUD.

Maximum flexibility means maximum difficulty. In other words, Apple allowing people to customize the iPhone willy-nilly will drive their support costs through the roof and reduce the perceived product quality or perhaps product quality overall. Don't act like this affects no-one but the third party developers and their customers. The situation requires a balancing act and it's not about "freedom" versus "tyranny". You are free to purchase your cell phone from any provider that you wish. It's really about whether you get to tell Apple what to do or not, isn't it?

At the developers conference, Apple gave free copies of Leopard Beta with the advice to developers to develope apps for the iphone in Safari.

That doesn't sound like a company that is against 3rd party apps! If a 3rd party developer thinks that their program is soo hot, they will submit a copy to Apple for testing, verifying and approval.

Sounding off, before following normal channels is akin to saying that you have something, not so sure about it, so build up expectation and pressure to Apple in the hope that tyhey will come knocking on your door.

Bless you Nightwatch for all the hard work you have done so far.....try not to ejaculate your development too soon next time!

to buy an iPhone. Will not buy one until/unless it accomodates "real" 3rd party apps. Or until Apple itself supplies those much needed apps. Until then, I stick with my cumbersome trio: iPod, cell phone, PDA. Too bad.

soulseek + iphone = happy

@Peter
"So the argument that installing third-party apps on your phone will somehow cause it to crash when you need it the most is rubbish."

Your car doesn't start:
Starter problems
Fuel pump problem
Bad Battery
Wet distributor
You get a flat tier (don't have a spar)
You are the one involved in an accident
Your car gets flooded
Stuck in the middle of a blizzard
You locked your self out of your house and its 3:00 am
Blackout occurs rendering your cordless phone out of commission and the only phone service you have is your cell phone.
You see, it's not just the 911 argument

I could go on and on about how important it is to have a reliable phone. If you decide to compromise this by installing hacks on it, your are correct, it's your right, but don't expect Apple to facilitate this.

@Mac-nugget (just to follow the thread)

But, wouldnt't be the same issue when installing a 3rd party app to a Treo or any other WinCE or Palm phone?

As long as you can install an app on a phone, you run that risk. And "approved apps" are no warranty of anything. look at Microsoft!

You don't want the risk, you can either have a phone-only device or not install anything. I respect that.

But as long as you install an app, you are responsible for what you do.

My take, at least.

@mm
Let's not forget we're talking about a NETwORK device. So, once MR. I wantcoice1 breaks Apples security in order to have his choice satisfied, along comes Mr. Iwantchoice ad infinitum, and suddenly malware directed to the iphone mysteriously starts appearing on the internet. My networked device now becomes as crap infested as any ordinary windows pc. All because Mr. Iwantchoice1 decided that Apple didn't know what they were doing. I've been using Macs since the original way back in 1984, I'm a very senior systems programmer in a large well funded IT environment. I lugged my Mac to work every day back in 1984, connected to the network ... when I could, seen many windows users shed many tears at the lost of data caused by well meaning hackers loosed in an unsecured, anything gores crackable & hackable programming environment. But in all this time I have NEVER! NEVER! had a single virus or other malware contamination on my "NOCHOICE" Mac. This I believe id due to Apple's insistence on their hermetically sealed programming environment. You want choice ... by a windows mobile device, you get choice up the ying-yang. Including those you didn't opt for.

I am for the choice I originally made, not that some IMAHOTSHOT makes.

I took my new MacBook Pro into the Apple store because of a small problem. The geniuses said they would not honor the guarantee on the computer because it had third party apps installed!!

"do people really want it to end up like WinMobile?"

What you mean fully featured with a vast array of useful programs instead of limited to what Apple has the time and inclination to develop?

if you don't like the idea of 3rd party apps on your iPhone, don't install any. Simple as that.

"This left potential buyers with 2 choices"

Actually people had 3 choices, Choice 3, buy it and hack up a toolchain to allow building 3rd party apps.

"in this case Apple does know best."

Baaa Baaa.

"It's really about whether you get to tell Apple what to do or not, isn't it?"

Baaa Baaa.

"My networked device now becomes as crap infested as any ordinary windows pc."

You forget it is Mac OS X, Mac OS X is impregnable to malware and never crashes. So all the arguments about malware and crashing are invalid.

But back to the real world, at least you now allow for the fact, even suggest that it's almost certain that a Mac OS X machine will become unstable due to customer installed apps and is vulnerable to malware. Interesting.

Why on earth shouldn't people who want to write apps for the phone do so, and people who want to use those apps run them.

All the MacSheep in this forum who don't like the idea can leave their phones factory default.

@Mac-nugget

Well, if you take it that far, the iPhone out of the box will eventually fail you when (not if) the battery fails anyway. Any electronic device will fail in time for whatever reason because of its age.

@BaaBaaMacSheep

"You forget it is Mac OS X, Mac OS X is impregnable to malware and never crashes. So all the arguments about malware and crashing are invalid."

Unless you're just being mildly sarcastic, that's a very dangerous statement. Almost to the point where I think this school of thought has become an urban myth. I've seen Macs crash left and right enough times when their users/fans claim that it never does, it doesn't matter if it is hardware or software related, it is still a malfunction. And malware vunerabilities are an eventuality for any OS, because afterall, it is made by us humans, and we're never perfect.

"Unless you're just being mildly sarcastic, that's a very dangerous statement. "

I am being sarcastic.

If you read the comments on this forum and follow the line of thought:

Desktop Mac OS X is impregnable and 3rd party apps never crash a Mac.
The iPhone runs Mac OS X
Yet strangely running any 3rd party on an Mac OS X iPhone will result in instant instability of the iPhone, instability of AT&T;'s entire wireless network, and probably affect global weather patterns, the stability of the sun's core and so on so Steve was wise to ban them.

Translation: Baaaa Baaaa, whatever Apple does I will mindlessly support Baaaa Baaaa

Sorry, Mac fans ... iPhone isn't impenetrable:

"iPhone Safari exploit revealed"

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/07/23/briefly_iphone_web_exploit_german_iphone_retailer_more.html

Better be careful with it.

Here is the original site info on the exploit:

http://www.securityevaluators.com/iphone/