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The babies cry "Whaa! Whaa! Whaa!"

Oh, well, just another brick in the wall.

Hey, I'm a big fan of Pink Floyd, but did their former manager even bother to read what he's quoted as saying, "He complained cherry-picking tracks from albums means consumers now 'buy the two album tracks that are worth buying,'"

What more proof do you need that the album was an artificial construct as MDN says?

I think you have to give a little credit to consumers to find music they like and then make purchase decisions from there. I think the way it can work, and does work, is someone hears a song, likes the song, buys the song and then will search for more songs from that same band or group to buy. If an "album" is strong enough, people will buy it. If it isn't, they won't. But maybe the artist will have sold a million singles instead of very few albums because of the ability to buy a single song.

Nov 19, 08 - 03:32 pm Comment from: Funky Chicken

Well, he even said so himself: that most people 'buy the two album tracks that are worth buying.'

Why should I be made to purchase songs that are not worth buying?? Duh....

"He complained cherry-picking tracks from albums means consumers now 'buy the two album tracks that are worth buying.'"

I'm sorry, did he actually say "the two album tracks that are worth buying"? And he's complaining about that? So he thinks consumers should be forced to buy tracks that aren't worth buying?

Mouth, meet foot.

Here's where MDN is dead ass wrong when it comes to albums like those made by Pink Floyd, which should be sold as a single piece of art. You don't buy just the mouth of the Mona Lisa.

Never argue with MacDailyNews, they're proven to be right 99% of the time.

I just found my 45 of Money.

M,

Ignoring the entire take in order to wrongly criticize only highlights your stupidity:

"So, buy albums when you deem them worthy, but be thankful that you have the choice to debundle as you like; it'll only make music better in the long run as "filler" will cease to be created." - MacDailyNews

M,

You're an idiot.

Nov 19, 08 - 03:58 pm Comment from: ken1w

Apple has had other pro-consumer impacts on the music industry, including setting and keeping the de-facto price of a song at 99-cents.

If it wasn't for Apple, there would be no large digital music download market, and music piracy would be much higher.

Nov 19, 08 - 04:05 pm Comment from: MacFhearghaile

M,

Do another line, and everything will be fine.

Nov 19, 08 - 04:06 pm Comment from: Cubert

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you only like a couple of the songs on an album, you need to find better acts to listen to.

I think M, is 'Comfortably numb'...or is that 'Suitably dumb'

Nov 19, 08 - 04:15 pm Comment from: Mr. Reeee

Cubert...

That's the pop music formula:
1 Album. 1 Hit. That's it.

Nov 19, 08 - 04:17 pm Comment from: The Other Steve

I've also bought many many songs that I would have passed on if I had to pay for the full album.

On another note, I'm also passing on music that have DRM on the Apple Store. If I have to look somewhere else, the impulse passes. It's amazing how much I don't miss those tracks and how much money I save after I let the "impulse to buy" pass.

Nov 19, 08 - 04:17 pm Comment from: Amazin1

Recall, those of you born before the mid-60's, how 45's almost always had some loser song on the flip side. Not much has changed it seems.

1 hit in 2 to 1 hit in 12.

Slight change there.

He can bite my big fat ass!
Twice!

Whenever I hear someone chirp the phrases, "It's too expensive." or "It's not worth it." I *almost always* ask myself one question:

"Worth it to whom?"

That always changes the dynamic of the discussion and clarifies what it *really* being said.

To some people it will be and to some it won't.

Although I'd hardly put Pink Floyd in the same catagory as the Mona Lisa, I suppose that there are some (*sigh*) people that would and therein lies the crux or their argument: to them it *is* worth getting the whole (unadulterated) album because of their perception of it as 'art'.

I, along with MDN and many other people, simply don't want to be FORCED to do so. To *me* it might not be worth having the full album regardless of someone else's personal opinion. The road to compulsion leads to fascism.

Leave people alone and let them choose.

WTF!!!! Why is apple giving people the freedom to choose what they want? who do they think they are????

I always buy and play albums only even in digital or download formats which I now prefer over CDs or any physical media.

I also disagree that the "consumer deserves some credit" (for picking what they like). Consumers are people and most people are dumb-ass "waste of space's" IMO who wouldn't know Art if they got hit over the head by it.

All that being said, The Pink Floyd guy is totally wrong and pretty dumb his-self.

@ Gil - I remember buying the 45 RPM single of "Money" myself in the 70's, which is all the proof you need to show how stupid this whole album vs. single argument is.

Actually, I think I understand his point. While there are many albums that are not worth more than 2 songs, I believe that there is real injustice served to bands like Pink Floyd who make concept albums. King Crimson also comes to mind, along with many classical albums.

I think that the iTunes model is not really set up to please everyone and we should accept that there are some exceptions to the rule. Pink Floyd is a concept-album band whose music really should be bought in its entirety to really appreciate it.

One thing that Mr. Jenner could do to even the playing field is do what Prince did with his concept album, Lovesexy. Make the whole thing one long playing track that can only be purchased as a whole. Not consumer friendly, but gets the point across.

rick

Nov 19, 08 - 04:29 pm Comment from: Beaker

Amen, oh my gosh.

Most albums have 10 to 12 songs and are being sold for 9.99. And a album with more then 5 good songs is very very seldom so in most cases for the consumer is better to buy only these songs he really likes.
Make the album 4.99 or 5.99 and you will sell a lot of albums and generate more revenue then with one hit song.

Nov 19, 08 - 04:33 pm Comment from: Grifterus

Managers are not musicians. They are sales people.

They have no saying about music other than "How much can I make out of it?"

OK, if albums are only to be enjoyed in their entirety, then why does almost every radio station on the planet play songs piecemeal from albums? Why has no musician or artist complained before about the travesty of listening to only one song from an album on the radio and refused to let their songs be played that way? Because they would get no air time and no one would buy their music.

I agree that some albums are very well crafted to sound great as a whole, but this argument is all about money. These people are all about forcing people to buy 10 song to get the one song they want.

Addendum:

Actually, I thought Mr. Jenner's point would have been better served in the real criticism that I have about iTunes. Musical fidelity! Bands such as Pink Floyd and others really experimented with quadraphonic sounds and interesting setups. Musical separation is lost in iTunes. The songs are super compressed and lack any fidelity whatsoever. Even at 256, the quality is lacking.

Obviously I think that there should be some type of .aiff or lossless downloads in order to preserve quality (flac maybe?). For bands such as Pink Floyd, it is the major reason why I would only buy them on CD. Now if Mr. Jenner mentioned that point, I would agree wholeheartedly.

/rick

Nov 19, 08 - 04:45 pm Comment from: Spark

@M
MDN stated that Pink Floyd was an exception, so you're criticism of the "take" is misplaced. It should go without saying that there are alway exceptions to any rule. That doesn't make the general rule wrong. In this case, the general rule that albums are simply a collection of discreet musical concoctions, rarely thematic or otherwise related, holds true for the vast majority of albums. In addition, the record companies systematically killed off all past methods of obtaining single songs, forcing consumers into paying higher prices for albums that they would not have been required to do in previous record eras. In the roughly ten years prior to the advent of iTunes people had two choices: pay $12-$18 for a disc to obtain the one song really wanted, or go the illegal root of piracy. The explosion of online "sharing", making otherwise honest people criminals, is evidence that the record companies' policies were wrong and counterproductive. Before the advent of the CD the music industry had always provided a method for consumers to buy singles (or A/B side 45's). Somehow they were able to flourish in the ninety years of doing business this way. They had a decade of an unsustainable business model and got spoiled during that time. The record companies need to go back to being value driven businesses like everyone else instead of the "get rich quick" concerns that they morphed into during the '90s.

sorry, but itunes has killed the artform that was the album...

When was the last time that you went to a concert and the group or "artist" performed their album live song by song? That's right, NEVER. When music was first sold, itbwas as singles. Albums came later. People will buy what they want, either the song or albums. Give us choice!

MDN: Damn straight.

Rarely do I agree with your take as much as I do this time. You're right on the money. Unfortunately, the music "cartels" are now going to find new and innovative ways to punish Apple. With Amazon's MP3 service really gaining ground, it's only a matter of time before Apple loses its leverage, unfortunately.

Nov 19, 08 - 04:54 pm Comment from: Greg L

With enemies like that Pink Floyd manager to advance arguments that bolster your case just splendidly, who needs friends?

Nov 19, 08 - 04:59 pm Comment from: hagar57

The point with Pink Floyd is, that whoever deems 'Dark Side of the Moon' as worth buying as album will most certainly have it already, both as LP and as CD, such as yours truly. You don't want to hear single tracks out of Sgt. Peppers, either. Some real-time live albums come to mind, too (The Band - The Last Waltz, 4 CD Edition). Those are rare exemptions of the general rule, though. So mostly I'm very happy to pick the cherries from the offerings of 'albums', thank you.

Nov 19, 08 - 05:04 pm Comment from: sparkplug

Maybe Mr. Jenner should listen to Steely Dan's "Pretzel Logic" album and song a couple of times

Mother do you think they'll like this song.....

That's right MDN - You Go GIRL! I only want Mona Lisa's eyes, not the rest of that crappy painting. Who are those artists telling us what their art is.

M is not an idiot, he's right. Anyone who grew up during the album era, knows well that you buy an album to get the great song(s) you've heard on the radio. In a very short time, it's those very songs you're sick of because of endless radio play, and the obscure songs that never get radio play become your favorites.
I think the public gets cheated by not being exposed to some of the artist best works because they never get radio time.

I agree with your take, MDN. Artists who create a reason to buy the album will have their albums bought, although possibly at a lesser rate than in the past. Oh well. We're in new territory and real art has never been a huge moneymaker.

If they really think that an album is an indivisible work of art, they should have never let the radio stations play any singles.

And I distinctly remember hearing "Money" as a single back in the 70s.

I had a scratch on my "Dark Side of the Moon" CD, that wiped out the last 20 seconds of the last song. So I paid a buck to get that song from iTunes. Not a chance I would have bought another CD.

Okay, so having said all of that, Pink Floyd is the one group that necessitates (in my opinion) buying the whole album. I would not get the "whole" construct if I only bought "Young Lust," "Mother," "Another Brick in the Wall" (either part), and "Run Like Hell." It would just not make sense.

Nov 19, 08 - 05:25 pm Comment from: Mac-nugget

I agree in the case of Floyd.

actually, "Artist," if i check out a great song i heard, i almost always listen to the samples of the remaining songs on the album.

if there's only one or two songs i like, i might buy those two songs. if there's more than three, i pick up the whole album. if i generally like the album, i check out more of what the artist's done. if i like that, it equates to more purchases from me that i might not have made. if i really like the albums, i tell my friends about them.

but when i'm forced to buy the whole album, i'm often stuck with one or two songs i like and the remainder i either don't rip or in the case of digital music, offload and never give a second listen. that almost always leaves me with a negative experience with the artist and i never investigate further into their other music. and yes, i did grow up in the album era. and i did discover songs i liked i would not have otherwise. but now there's this thing called the Internet and SWEET REVELATION THERE'S A WHOLE SHIFT IN HOW I CAN INTERACT WITH MUSIC. and screw the music companies for trying to force it back into an old, increasingly obsolete business model.

i bought NIN's "Ghosts" in its entirety. yes, i could have picked off individual songs, but i was aware it was meant to be listened to as a whole concept because guess what? it was successfully marketed that way.

Nov 19, 08 - 05:34 pm Comment from: R5D4

Without really expressing an opinion on all the chatter above, I can tell you that before iTunes and iPods had gapless playback, listening to Dark Side of the Moon in its entirety through Apple devices sucked ass. That said, classic rock radio has been playing individual tracks on their own from that album for years, and I doubt anyone from Floyd ever complained. So I guess I do have an opinion--big deal if you can buy the tracks separately.

Nov 19, 08 - 05:36 pm Comment from: Chuck U Farley

When was the last time you bought an album and enjoyed every song on it.

I rest my case.

@ Luke Skywalker

What about "Betty Davis' Eyes"?

@Mark
"I had a scratch on my "Dark Side of the Moon" CD, that wiped out the last 20 seconds of the last song. So I paid a buck to get that song from iTunes. Not a chance I would have bought another CD."

This is just a question based on curiosity. If iTunes did not exist, would you have bought a new DSotM album? I know I would. Now if it were the last 20 seconds off off "Atom Heart Mother," maybe not so much (well yes, but I would look for the cheapest copy I could find).

I think what happens most often is that a person hears a song on the radio that they like and then they buy it. But the problem is that the music executives still decide what songs make it on the radio, and those songs that get played on the radio are not always the best tracks on an album. Sometimes, by buying an album for that one song I heard on the radio, I uncovered one or more songs on the album that were much better songs. What needs to happen now is that music execs need to allow radio stations to play any and all tracks off of albums so that consumers can make a smart choice about what tracks are really worth buying. I think in the long run it would result in more tracks being bought.

I'll have to side with the Flyod on this one. While most albums are fine torn apart, the DSOTM is best left whole.

well maybe my theory doesn't hold up these days. There was a time when record companies signed groups based on talent. Now it has more to do with looks and marketing, i.e. Britney. She's put her own spin on Dark Side of the Moon