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Oct 15, 08 - 08:59 am Comment from: marcus aurelius

that 29.4% growth from 3Q '07 to 3Q '08 is astonishing compared to the other players. moving on up!

Oct 15, 08 - 09:19 am Comment from: chaz

Boring,

Need a laptop below $800 to start to make some hay in the world market. Apple doesn't even show up on the radar.

Love Apple, don't like the market niche Apple is constrained itself to.

Oct 15, 08 - 09:40 am Comment from: Macromancer

"Love Apple, don't like the market niche Apple is constrained itself to."

Can't have it both was bro. Either you love it that apple's quality stays high because they don't commoditize (thus diluting) the user experience, or you go for mass saturation and all the crap that goes along with it.

Playing in the 3% margin area with Dell et al is not sensible for Apple - if you want to see it thrive, innovate and develop the way it does that is...

Oct 15, 08 - 09:48 am Comment from: KingMel

@chaz

Approximately 43.7% of world wide shipments fall under the "Other" category. I doubt that Apple is too far behind fifth place Toshiba. And Apple is nearing 10% in the U.S. If you had forecast that back in 2000, most people would have doubted you. And the Apple story is even better in terms of revenue.

I admit that I would have liked to see Apple push the entry level MacBook down to $899. But it is hard to argue that cutting 9.1% off of its former $1099 price suddenly makes it a 'bad deal.'

I really like the new $1299 MacBook model. It is the new value leader IMO.

Oct 15, 08 - 09:51 am Comment from: Archie Bunker

First the Americans figure it out, then the Eurotrash and the Japs, then all the Chinks in China!

Delivering products you didn't know you wanted, products you had no idea you needed in a package that no one ever thought of, even they "AAPL" admit made in a way they never dreamed off!? (Of course they dreamt of it that is why they were able to do it, but what dreams!!!?????).

M$, Dell, HP et al, Have you fired up your copiers yet?

By the way AAPL, How many patents have you claimed by way of manufacturing process?

To Greenpeace, Hope this makes you rethink your fund raising methods now.

It doesn't help to be the #1 computer maker if you only make about $20 a unit. It's better to be "off the radar" and actually MAKE MONEY. Let the bottom feeders fight it out in the sub-K market.

Oct 15, 08 - 10:14 am Comment from: ragarcia

Archie Bunker,

You crack me up! All these years and your are still the same funny smartass we all grew up loving.

Stay happy!

Oct 15, 08 - 10:30 am Comment from: chaz

@Macromancer

Apple makes money from both hardware and software, which should allow it, being vertically integrated, to beat the living crap out of Dell, HP, Etc. It shouldn't affect the user experience one iota.

@ kingmel
Apple is a seperate platform, and as such, needs a much larger market share and mind share around the world. Being a separate platform and not showing up on a world wide chart (being in with others) is not an endorsement of the viability of the platform.

One thing that's certainly been made painfully aware to me is the waning influence of the US in the world. Being a market leader here doesn't carry the cachet it used to.

Oct 15, 08 - 10:51 am Comment from: Predrag

chaz,

An important thing to consider is that there is no indication that Apple's growth is slowing. This indicates clearly that the pricing is exactly right. Knocking 20% off from a retail price would mean having to sell three times as many of the same machines in order to maintain the same profit levels. To put it in another way, instead of working 3 hours per day for $300 per hour, you will have to work 9 hours per day for $100 per hour. You would obviously get much more work, since your services are now much cheaper, but you'd be putting many more hours. Which would you prefer?

If Apple's growth were to continue at this same pace relative to the rest of the industry, it should take no more than three more years for it to reach parity with all other PCs. Why again would they want to lower their profits?

It never did chaz. You just like to think it did.

The US has seen its economy grow like crazy whilst other nations languished in what Americans (the US press, primarily) would consider a sustained recession.
Now we know that this growth was a big fat lie built on consumer (and government) debt.
The best we can hope for is to learn from this mess we're in and not repeat it.
Apple is actually a very good example of corporate responsibility in this regard, being debt free. Congress should be taking notes.

Oh and just so you know, Micros**t is run by an American, Apple is run by the son of a Syrian.

It seems that the reporter(s) made a mistake in calculations. The PC market (without the Mac) grew 2.57%, not 1.02%. It is still pretty impressive for the Apple, but let's keep the numbers straight: it's about 11 times the growth, not 30 times.

Oct 15, 08 - 11:15 am Comment from: qka

@ chaz

If you are just graduating or whatever, and entering the real world, chances are you need a car. Can you afford a new one with all the bells and whistles? Probably not. You would probably buy a used car.

Consider the same in computers. Sure, new would be nice, what with all the bells and whistles Apple just announced. However, consider getting a used Mac from one of MDN's advertisers, or a refurb from Apple. Still a lot of performance, and for less money.

Wait until you can afford the new car and then buy the new computer.

Oct 15, 08 - 11:34 am Comment from: Predrag

Qka:

Precisely! If I had $10,000 to spend on a car, I'd much rather buy a used BMW (as old as necessary to fit into that budget) than a new Kia or a Hyunday (if they could even be had for that money; I live in Manhattan, so I haven't had a car since Clinton took office).

Any refurbished (or used) MacBook would be a better choice than a new Acer (or any other Win machine). Keep in mind, Genius Bar will always help you even with out-of-warranty hardware, as long as it doesn't take them more than an hour to fix your problem. Moreover, Apple hardware has much better resale value; exactly like in our BMW example.

Does anyone remember when Bill Gates was quoted as saying that Apple would reach 10% market-share within a certain amount of time? He said that it would take them 10 years. I wana know when he said it and compared to that how long it actually took Apple to reach the 10% market.

Steve made a massive mistake yesterday. The objective was not to cheapen the Mac, it was to increase market share and spread the word about Macs to everyone. It's really a simple concept. He's done it before with the iPhone: Start with a low-cost entry vehicle (iPod) and soon enough, the experience will be so good that you migrate to the more expensive products. I speak from personal experience.

Students and people in this economy would have loved to try out the Mac. That opportunity was lost with a 999.00 pricing. Remember, those tax rebate checks were not all sent out immediately. The final day for taxes was yesterday, in order to receive the rebate check. An 800.00 price tag would have sealed the deal for many. That opportunity was lost yesterday.

As if to prove my point, retail sales were dismal this morning and the dow down another 500 points today. It doesn't matter who will be President, if a family cannot pay the bills, they're not going to buy a Mac. A 1k price tag makes that seem even more likely.


PS. Before you start calling me names, know that I have a long lineup of Mac products since 2006, when I migrated from a simple iPod to a decked out Mac-Centric office and home, including entertainment systems.

Rick.

Oct 15, 08 - 01:57 pm Comment from: Predrag

Rick,

You weren't trolling, flaming or flame-baiting, so there will be no name calling, at least not from me.

I do think, though, that you still may be wrong. People at Apple have shown, during the past several years, that they have an extremely keen sense about the right price for their products. We can all have opinion on whether their products are expensive or not, but nonetheless, rarely has an Apple product sold poorly just because of its price. As I had said, had Apple lowered the price, they would have needed to sell three times as many MacBooks in order to make the same profits. That made absolutely no sense for them.

I have a feeling regardless of the hit the economy is going to have on the markets, that Apple will continue to sell their MacBooks very well.

Oct 15, 08 - 02:31 pm Comment from: treestman

I appreciate MDN for being one of the only major sites to remove Apple's figures from the US PC market and then compare the growths. This is the proper way to do it, and shows Apple growing much more rapidly in the US than most sites are indicating.

However, the calculated percentage is incorrect. Going from 15.3118 to 15.7055 is a ~2.6% increase, not 1.02. Therefore Apple's growth in the US is over 11 times the industry average, not 30.

You almost have it right, treestman. (See my earlier post above.)

Apple's growth is 11 times the US PC average (excl. Macs), NOT 11 times the industry average. The industry average growth is 4.6%—Apple's growth is a little over 6 times that number.

Oct 15, 08 - 03:31 pm Comment from: treestman

James,

I see your point. It could be semantics, but the point is that there needs to be a way to compare non-Mac to Mac growth. The "industry" I'm referring to is that of PCs (i.e., non-Macs). Isn't that an industry unto itself? I certainly think so.

Anyway, I'm fine with calling it your way. My issue -- and I think you agree -- is that the "industry average" you refer to is a ridiculous point of comparison against Apple because it already includes Apple! In essence, it has Apple competing against itself.

Oct 15, 08 - 03:33 pm Comment from: treestman

Oh, and the other point is that while MDN was well-intentioned, they got the math wrong and really should correct it and the headline.

Actually it is sort of entertaining to compare the actual growth numbers rather than percentages: (for the US since the World Wide ones are not reported for Apple)

Apple +374.2K
Dell +289.8K
HP +188.6K
Acer +155.5K
Toshiba +33.6K
Others -274.0K

Obviously, Apple comes out ahead, which is even more remarkable when you figure that Apple has less than one third of Dell's market share. Even with the greater market share, Dell saw only 77 percent of Apple's growth. The difference is even more dramatic with HP, whose growth was 50 percent of Apple's.

As for Apple not appearing on the World Wide list, it is not very surprising. Apple's growth in the US did not really start to take off before they opened their own retail stores and got to present their story directly to buyers. Since Apple sells something that is fundamentally different from the other manufacturers, it never could get a "fair shake" from the existing Retail Sales infrastructure. Retail sales techniques are not uniform between countries and so Apple needs to develop the expertise to sell in each market place separately, which takes time. HP and Dell do not have to worry about the difference in retail models as they simply use the local retail infrastructure. For a variety of reasons this approach does not work for Apple (most of which are tied up in the Windows monopoly stranglehold).

"I doubt that Apple is too far behind fifth place Toshiba."

Toshiba sold almost 3.7 million units. That's a lot more than Apple sells in a quarter.

"Actually it is sort of entertaining to compare the actual growth numbers rather than percentages: (for the US since the World Wide ones are not reported for Apple)"

It's even more amusing to look at worldwide growth

HP+ 1936 or more than Apple's US sales.
Dell +1142 or nearly all Apple's US sales.
Acer + 3326 or trice Apple's US sales.

And that's just the GROWTH in those company's sales.

So 30% growth in the US, only 374k units, and Apple grew by a large percentage of a small number whereas the others grew by a small percentage of a large number. if you're talking Apples with Apples, Apple's growth in the US is only about twice Dell's

Alternatively:

Apple grew by 2.15% of the available market.
HP grew by 1.08% of the available market
Dell grew by 1.67% of the available market

30% of a small number, is that even meaningful?

But since we like Meaningless Numbers.

Since we don't have Apple's worldwide numbers we'll only look at US ones (works for skips).

HP grew by 500% of Apple's growth
Dell grew by 300% of Apple's growth.
Acer grew by a massive 889% of Apple's growth.

889% of Apple's growth for Acer, and no major player growing at less than 300%of Apple's rate. Those are great statistics, but not for Apple.

"Since Apple sells something that is fundamentally different from the other manufacturers, it never could get a "fair shake" from the existing Retail Sales infrastructure"

Apple's problem is it pissed in the pool when it chopped a bunch of US and overseas retailers off at the knees with direct sales. Steve won't get a fair shake because he can't be trusted, and he's earned that mistrust. There's a reason why Apple needs to build it's own stores. Steve's poisoned every retail partnership he's ever entered in to.