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go, Germans, go

Didn´t think, they´re as clever ...

Internet Exploder is so good to have?

I use Safari 99.9% of the time, but I have to say I still run into the occasional page (usually some kind of form) that doesn't work properly and have to (begrudgingly) fire up IE.

tclash:

I am very glad that I am in a position to ignore sites that require me to use Internet Exploder. If you are not in such a position, you have my sincere condolences.

Unfortunately, MDNs comment are off base. I work in an office where Mac's are in the majority, but not within our industry.

We tried to standardize on Safari, however, there are MANY business related sites that do NOT work with Safari. Some of those sites that do NOT work with Safari, work with Mozilla (et al), but most of them work with IE. Some sites require that we use PCs.

An employee does not have the time to play and try loading a site with Safari, then Mozilla, then IE, and in the worst case scenario, go to IE on the PC.

So out of frustration, we've gone back to IE because it just works more consistently with the sites we have to use (and we spent many months sending bug reports to Apple and, as yet, see no appreciable improvement in Safari's support of these sites). It's been a very frustrating experience...

In these cases, I don't even know who to blame and I hate that we've had to move back to IE, but we have a business to run.

The issue of sites only working with IE is, once again, due to MSoft establishing proprietary standards for webpages that do not conform with more universal standards.

After establishing the proprietary website standards, they incorporated these into both their web development programs and backend.

All done very quietly... with not a word against it in the media.

No wonder people consider MS to be evil.

When in doubt (that is if and when Safari fails you) use Netscape/Mozilla!

David Lawless, by enabling the "Debug" menu in Safari and then selecting you choice of agent, even a PC-based one, you don't have to run any other software nor go to another computer.

Once you select a new agent, Safari automatically updates the displayed webpage using the new agent. It is VERY easy to use and has worked flawlessly every time.

And we are STILL 100% Microsoft FREE!!!

Type the following command in Terminal (while Safari is NOT running):

% defaults write com.apple.Safari IncludeDebugMenu 1

Then launch Safari, and you will be able to use the new Debug menu.

If you ever wish to disable it again, just repeat the command with a "0" instead of a "1".

"Users of older Mac OS versions who are still using MS IE, should also seek an alternative browser."

What are the alternatives?

Ha! I've just launched IE for the first time in ages... forgotten how shit it actually is!

I really really want to use Safari for 100% of my web surfing. It doesn't support pages that run active server pages (.asp's), a mickysoft program. Many banks and auto company sites use asp's heavilly, and do not render correctly in Safari or any other non mickysoft browser. Even mac IE is now so out of date, it is no longer supported on these sites. The user agent trick in Safari doesn't work on asp using sites. So I am forced to use IE under virtual PC. I wish some would come up with a solution. its very frustrating.

kikamoocou,

Alternatives are Netscape 7.0 on OS 9,
and iCab for OS 9

At home, I just ignore IE specific sites. Changing the user agent is really the wrong thing to do. The right thing to do is to mail the site and tell them that you're not going to use it any more. Explain that they have lost a customer.

Most of the time they'll ignore you. Sometimes they'll apologise and say there's nothing that they can do and sometimes they'll thank you for feedback and make a change.

Although they don't always test with more than IE, that doesn't mean they're not willing to fix stuff if you ask nicely.

But only ask once and then go elsewhere.

At work, we seem to be beholden to The Beast. I have managed to install Firefox and use that almost exclusively (it's really rather Safari-like). For internet use, it's fine. For Intranet use, there are many pages that require IE (filling in my timesheet is one), but I quite IE as soon as that task is done rather than just resign myself to using IE instead.

We had a microsoft rep come to give a presentation last week, but I had to miss it because I didn't want to get fired for calling him a lying wankstain. Apparently he told people how great Longhorn was going to be.

Thanks to all those that told me to turn on the Debug menu. I had already tried that and it does NOT work on the web sites we use (with or without Pop-Up menus blocked for the next group that will write and tell me to do that...).

Look at the following site in Safari (using ANY User Agent that you desire), Mozilla and then look at it under Internet Explorer on a Mac or PC:

http://www2.manulife.com/apps/manulife/html/index_tpa.html

Scroll your mouse over Funds, Services, Updates, or Policies/Guidelines. In IE, menus appear and in Safari - no matter what user agent - or Mozilla NOTHING appears. This is just on the very first page of the website and it's a MAJOR insurance company. It gets worse once you enter a login and go into the site.

I hate to HAVE to use IE, but I hate even more when people say, well all you have to do you idiot is turn on the Debug menu. The Debug menu ONLY tricks a web site into thinking you are using something else - it does NOT add functionality to the browser.

RE:"David Lawless, by enabling the "Debug" menu in Safari and then selecting you choice of agent, even a PC-based one, you don't have to run any other software nor go to another computer."

As others have said, spoofing rarely works, no more than 5-10% of the time, in my experience.

And, if MSIE Mac version does no better.

I just have to fire up Virtual PC, and use MSIE/Windows, and it "works" ;-(

And I can't "ignore" sites that won't work with Mac browsers because I don't use my Mac for entertainment, I need it for my work.

I don't know the answer, nothing will probably change until the Net collapses due to Windows/MSIE junk programming.

To David Lawless:
If you look at the code on the site you listed, it begins with:
if (parseInt(navigator.appVersion) >= 4) {
if (navigator.appName == "Netscape") {
isNetscape = true
isExplorer = false
} else {
isExplorer = true
isNetscape = false
}
}
Interesting. This company has its head in the sand.

A different way to get their attention may be to look at the results of running the page through Bobby
(http://bobby.watchfire.com/bobby/html/en/index.jsp) to demonstrate they do not comply with US Federal accessibility requirements. many companies will respond more quickly to this kind of complaint than to a Mac related issue.

Well, if you have to use it, you have to use it. But does anybody ever try writing and complaining to these companies who generate these IE-only sites? It's simply asinine and lazy Web design. As a client, you have a right to expect more.

Thanks to WmCB for giving me something that I might be able to use with these non-working sites (there are other sites besides the one I listed in my previous email).

We are in a very specific niche industry, where Windows is the norm (and quite frankly, expected). All of the niche software is Windows (actually our industry is so backwards, a lot of the software is DOS based with a Windows Front End). The employees that need to access these programs have a PC and a Mac.

I'm guessing, we are the ONLY client these companies have that use the Mac (and I tell them every chance I get that our office is a Mac based firm), but it's like talking to a wall.

And for all of you out there seeing this "thinking why is this company using Macs". While we use PCs for ONLY those specific programs that require them. Macs are used for ALL normal productivity (word processing, spreadsheet, email, web browsing) and we've never had so much as a virus scare (It is strictly forbidden to use a PC for email or internet access - EXCEPT for the occassion where a Mac browser will not sufficiently access a site) and very few software or hardware issues.

We still find the Mac a major advantage in reducing the hassles of modern day computer life.

My only wish is that there was a Mac browser, other than IE, that worked for us.

when will someone have the brains to sue companies that require IE to access information online? especially any business that work with the government (US based). it is the LAW to adhere to "508a" standards. this is also an accessibility issue, and could be classified as a class-action lawsuits against those companies.

instead of going after microshit, go after the companies and developers who only code functionality for IE and lock other broswers out. a huge lawsuit will open up the market more effectively then ranting about microshaft.

just a thought.

RE:Well, if you have to use it, you have to use it. But does anybody ever try writing and complaining to these companies who generate these IE-only sites? It's simply asinine and lazy Web design. As a client, you have a right to expect more.

The answer is: yes, I used to write, and call, and the answer usually falls in the following categories:

What is a Mac?
Why would you use one?
Huh?
Is there a browser other than MSIE?
I know about that ,and we don't care,etc., etc.

Of course, it's asinine and lazy, but it is out there.

In the real world, I need web content from certain sites do do my work. I live in the world of "is" , not in the world of "should."

You have to recognize what is in order to get to should" , and often it takes a meltdown to get there.

I think it is coming, and it is often a positive thing in the long run.

More:
most of these website techies are just 22 year old kids fresh out of college.

What the hell do they know? They are at the dumbest part of their life

They have all this tech knowledge, but don't have the life experience to direct their knowledge, and what is worse, DON'T KNOW THAT THEY DON'T KNOW.

I write to everyone who won't support all browsers especially if they specifically require IE. You never get a decent response. Example: I recently wrote to my credit-card company (the "no-hassle" card) because the site I used to access my account details and pay the bill had become Safari unfriendly; it specifies IE or Netscape, but Mac Netscape doesn't work, only IE. I pointed out a report (from MDN) about IE being non-secure, especially for financial institutions. I received a reply that began "We regret that you are having difficulty accessing Capital One Online. Please try to access the site again. If you are still unable gain access, you may want to clear your browser's cache.", followed by instructions on how to do that (for Windows only, I might add). Unfortunately these people have the attitude that, once they have us by the short and curlys, they don't have to do anything for us except ensure that we make life easy for them.

for those who wanted an alternative.... as far as I know... the very last Mozilla for OS 8.6 - 9.x can be found ..Over Here...

IMO ... any site I cant see with Safari / Mozilla / Netscape... I show them my middle finger....
Fortunately, like beryllium, above, .. I am also in a position to do that....

All those in favor of hitting Bill Gates in the face with a Banana Cream Pie .... say Aye !!

He'd say: thanks for the pie!

Aye!!

i still think the lawsuit against "lazy" companies will work the best. hit their bottom line, they will change.

The Germans aren't the only ones warning people not to use IE:

<http://www.internetnews.com/security/article.php/3374931>

here's a live version of that link

http://www.internetnews.com/security/article.php/3374931

""Functional exploit code is publicly available, and there are reports of incidents involving this vulnerability."

To protect against the flaw, IE users are urged to disable Active scripting and ActiveX controls in the Internet Zone (or any zone used by an attacker). "

Incidentally it reminds me that the MS music store requires IE and requires Active scripting and ActiveX enabled.

Huumh, I senses a whole new breed of viruses *dancing* and infecting PCs with trumpets and fanfare (or whatever other sound MS customers buy from their store)