MacDailyNews - Where Mac news comes first

Nov 21, 07 - 10:46 am Comment from: Wandering joe

LGaMPS beat me to it. I will not be getting an unlocked iPhone in Germany anytime zune!

First post hi hi hi...

Let's buy those unlocked IPhones from Germany and sell them back on eBay !!!!!!

Damn... Wandering joe beat me

Are all iPhone features available on other networks? If not, it seems like you'd be paying a lot more and getting a lot less.

Nov 21, 07 - 10:48 am Comment from: DD from Belgium

...this makes me hope the iPhone will also rapidly become available in Belgium or NL now, because also here this legal issue was keeping it away from us.
Cannot wait to get my hands on one of them...

I am not going to even read the full article.

This just should not be allowed.
Ok it's not a AT&T;deal... but here is the thing.

Won't Apple BRICK these phones when the next update occurs?

AND if so... the FUTURE is in unlocked PHONES period.
That mean ALL PHONES from this day forward.

If that is where we are going... LETS level the playing field.

Plus any phone that acts or functions or even seems similar to the iPhone should be sued.

Nokia, Samsung, HTC... all FINGER touched screen phones.

d

Nov 21, 07 - 10:53 am Comment from: Wandering joe

Sorry to disappoint you Darth, but you have to do that yourself! :-0

Nov 21, 07 - 11:03 am Comment from: Wandering joe

@Dougless.
Where did you lose him?

Point taken. Apple seem to be sitting on the fence. Happily.
What is Apples' policy on UNLOCKED iPhones?

This all seems so familiar. As expienced with the Music deals.
Perhaps is a good thing for Apple to unlock the phone.

Stops hackers from toying with the phone.
Ease the worry of Apple bricking the phone.
Customers have choice on service provider.
And the PRICE should remain the same!

Doolittle

Nov 21, 07 - 11:05 am Comment from: Spark

That 999 euros makes the T-Mobile contract price iPhone seem dirt-cheap. I love this response to the court ruling, by the way. "We have to sell unlocked iPhones? Okay, a thousand euros. Buy all you want. Oh, sorry, they are unlocked, but only fully functional on the T-Mobile network. But knock yourselves out."

Can somebody who reads German look up Vodaphone Germany's data rates, particularly vs. T-Mobile Germany please?

some mall - years ago - he was the world best stuffed teddy bear

perplexing huh

The battle Apple is fighting to keep its phones locked is no different than the music companies fighting for DRM-protected music. The world, and the market, is changing. I know Apple signed an agreement with AT&T;, and it has to be honored for the time being, but it'll have to change. It's time Apple and all of the other cell phone sellers got with the program.

@Dougless

Get use to this new term "Unbrickable"...

Yes, very soon, unbrickable unlocked iPhones will be available online straight out of Germany !!! The price: $1500. As Christmas is approaching, iPhone will spread around the world.

Apple, you just can't keep this jewel locked up !!!

Nov 21, 07 - 11:11 am Comment from: Denny

Hey:

Check out the latest review by street.com on the Verizon iPhone Killer at <http://www.thestreet.com/_yahoo/newsanalysis/mobile-executive/10391158.html?cm_ven=YAHOO&cm_cat=FREE&cm_ite=NA>

Nov 21, 07 - 11:14 am Comment from: Steven Jobs

Margin on 'Unlocked Kraut Fone' = 73%

Think Different.

That must make it the world's most expensive phone (except, perhaps, the gold plated Vertu phones). €999 is CRAZY!

Nov 21, 07 - 11:25 am Comment from: Grigori

That must make it the world's most expensive phone (except, perhaps, the gold plated Vertu phones). €999 is CRAZY!

Ballmer is finally right.

Can some one explain why so many posters here are all pissed off or upset at A) mobile providers who didn't agree to an exclusive contract w/ Apple, or 2) folks that don't want a locked phone?

It seems that a lot of posters think it's a good idea to lock a phone to a provider, and I'd like to know why. Fine, maybe not every provider will offer the visual voice-mail feature, but what else does the iPhone do that requires any changes on the service provider's side of things? Certainly not web browsing or email, as plenty of phones that are out there can do that. Everything I've seen about the iPhone, except for visual voicemail, is due to the interface and software on the phone itself, which would work regardless of who the service provider was (assuming the provider uses an EDGE network, of course).

Why all the disparaging remarks towards Vodaphone? While I'm sure that their complaints are purely self-serving, the end result should be good for consumers, right? Why *wouldn't* prefer an unlocked iPhone over a locked one?

@shiva

amen, well said.

Nov 21, 07 - 11:55 am Comment from: Macaday

Sorry, that was too cheap. we meant to say €9,999.

@shiva

Because Apple is getting a cut of the ongoing revenue from the service contracts, which allows them to roll out new functionality to the phones as time goes on without forcing everyone to pay for upgrades down the line. Could you really imagine people buying upgrades to their Phone OS?

I don't think anyone is opposed to unlocked phones, but the pricing here makes the point pretty well - locked phones are cheaper upfront because you're kicking money in to the provider over time, which pays for that difference.

When comparing locked to unlocked, and seeing that a lot of the functionality of the unlocked phone on a non-T-Mobile network will be gone, and comparing the pricing on the plans, it starts to feel like Linux people and Prius drivers that just have to talk about how great it is that their phone is unlocked, even though they're paying more in the long run for in and not having the same functionality.

If Vodafone and Tmobile plans are comparably priced, you're basically paying an extra 30 euros/month over two years to use the phone unlocked.

Is this an indication of what the unlocked phones will cost in France?

Nov 21, 07 - 12:14 pm Comment from: mike_in_helsinki

If the dumb krauts want to pay through the nose the 1,500 bucks, I say TAKE THEIR MONEY!

Nov 21, 07 - 12:17 pm Comment from: Mac4lfe

@ Shiva

Tell me how it will cost on a non iPhone cellular provider to surf and email unlimited on a cellular network. Especially since the iPhone is so damn hard to stop surfing the Internet on.

Apple negotiated a great data deal with its partners.

Nov 21, 07 - 12:22 pm Comment from: gzero

The question for me is, do the people who whine about wanting to have the iPhone unlocked already have unlimited data plans by their current cell phone providers?

the people who whined... are those who don't want to change provider or can't for now. etc....

Ever wonder why some countries courts lean in the direction of the consumers while our counts lean in the direction of big business?

America is over due for a big change... one that helps out the little guy for a change... and it can't happen fast enough!

@gzero

The question for me is, do the people who whine about wanting to have the iPhone unlocked already have unlimited data plans by their current cell phone providers?

Given the current weakness of the dollar (1 Euro = $1.47) there's a substantial price penalty in the EU. I can't imagine the difference is all VAT. Is there a technical reason a US purchased iPhone couldn't be configured to work in one of the EU countries where it's being sold? I know lots of Europeans are making buying trips to the US to take advantage of the costs here.

And, yeah, I think the Eu999 price is a poke at the regulators. Apple may be required to sell unlocked, but they can set their own price.

@shiva

Because Apple has a larger plan of changing the cellular industry behind keeping iPhone locked to AT&T;(for the near term). That larger plan includes turning the cellular carriers into bit pipes into the many services on the Internet, including VoIP, not just the carriers own services. Recent history shows us Apple's goal is not just to sell a glitzy gadget but to significantly change industries.

Given the unlocking required by France and now Germany, I hope Apple has devised another plan to make change happen.

Nov 21, 07 - 01:07 pm Comment from: Ampar

Sounds like a wiener to me.

"Customers who bought an iPhone from November 19 could also have the SIM-card on their phones, which “locked” the handset to DT’s network, removed, the company said in a statement."

I'm confused. Does this mean that people who purchased a German iPhone before the 19th can get it unlocked for free... for a fee... not at all? Does it mean that people who get a German iPhone from the 19th onward with T-Mobile contract can break the contract without a penalty... or for the 600 Euro price difference... or for the price difference plus additional penalty?

Would someone please clear this up for me? Thanks...

Nov 21, 07 - 01:27 pm Comment from: KingMel

It seems to me that there is some significance to this unlocked iPhone development that is being overlooked. If Apple sells phones that are legally unlocked, then they must be compatible with future iPhone updates. Thus the hackers will have a model on which to develop their own unlocking techniques that will also play well with iPhone updates. This won't resolve the third party applications issues, but it does provide a partial solution.

I got to thank T-Mobile for an excellent strategy here.

THis expensive unlocked iPhone will be far too overpriced for anyone and hence all this will do is sell lorry loads of locked iphones.

Brilliant business move by T-Mobile - and T-Mobile can thank Vodaphone for making them do this.

And Apple can just sit back and watch the $ come flowing in from mass locked iPhone sales.

If the intention of Vodaphone was to stop iPhone sales via the courts then this totally backfired on them.

LOL!

The huge price increase of the unlocked iPhone is simply to get Apple that same economic benefit as the current AT&T;deal, except they get it all upfront instead of over the contract's life. Brilliant!

"Tell me how it will cost on a non iPhone cellular provider to surf and email unlimited on a cellular network. Especially since the iPhone is so damn hard to stop surfing the Internet on. "

Uh, the iPhone has 802.11b/g. I've got WiFi at home, at work, and at every nearby cafe. Why would I want to pay more for SLOW Edge access?

re: seems that a lot of posters think it's a good idea to lock a phone to a provider, and I'd like to know why.

----

I will tell you why...

What Apple is doing is NO DIFFERENT to any other Mobile phone maker when it launches a new phone.

This is standard business practice when Nokia, Motorola or any other company makes a new phone, they signed exclusive deals with 1 or maybe 2 carriers.

This does 2 important things, it creates a pen-tup demand for the latest phone, and creates a channel of the exclusive carrier to take away customers from other carriers via the exclusive phone.

Everyone wins, teh mobile phone makers and the exclusive carrier.

This business practice has been happening all the time with any new phone and has been in place since teh mobile phone industry was created.

So don't moan at Apple for this. Apple are only doing what the mobile phone industry has been doing for the last 15 years.

End of mobile phone business history lesson!

re: It seems to me that there is some significance to this unlocked iPhone development that is being overlooked. If Apple sells phones that are legally unlocked, then they must be compatible with future iPhone updates. Thus the hackers will have a model on which to develop their own unlocking techniques that will also play well with iPhone updates. This won't resolve the third party applications issues, but it does provide a partial solution

---

When you buy an iPhone you agree to certain terms specified by Apple when you register the phone through iTunes.

In one of those terms it says that if the iphone is unlocked or hacked then Apple will not be legally responsible for 'unbricking' the illegally unlocked iphone.

Apple may have been forced to sell unlocked iPhones in Germany BUT they dont have to support the phones, either with updates of functionality.

At the end of the day you pay the money and take your choice - either buy a locked iphone any enjoy the full services of the official carrier with visual voicemail and fantastic new feature updates abd functionality from Apple - or buy an unlocked iphone and use a crippled phone with no visual voicemail, unlimited dataplan or new software features, no support from Apple or guarantee that any updates will work on your hacked iphone.

I know which one I chose when I bought my iPhone in the UK - and boy am I enjoying the visual voicemail feature! )

who the hell cares what's going on in Germany. I just want to know when it's going to be here in Canada.......

Nov 21, 07 - 02:30 pm Comment from: Mac4lfe

@ @Mac4lfe

Its all nice that you have wifi here and there, so do I. But when I'm on the road I want immediate access to Google maps for directions, quick check of my bank account or airline schedule and also send and receive email on the spot. That's the beauty of the iPhone. I don't want to wait to find a wifi hotspot to do all this.

Can you imagine how much that would cost without unlimited data use. Wifi is sweet but Edge is convenient.

As another said... excellent move on T-Mobile's part... should make locked phones more appealing. I agree with that as it counters the imposed motion very nicely.

By no-means - am I against an unlocked iPhone.
I just don't see it RIGHT to have it one way one place and a different way somewhere else BECAUSE of some company crying unfair play...

iPhones unbricked will sell at premium prices... crazy man.
I wouldn't pay for that.

If the phone is NOW legal by Apples' terms to have it unlocked.
Apple SHOULD post what countries it unlocks the iPhone.

HOPEFULLY CANADA!!!!!!
Hurray!!!! Cos I ain't dreaming of using it on Rogers. I am hopefull - that if unlocking is legal that service can be with Bell Canada. I have my reasons.

Also, I see all these tiny upstarts ( hackers if I may for lack of a better term ) who offer WAYS to unlock the phone at FAR cheaper rates... they will get into the act in a big way!!!!
Conflict again... so all this JUST ISN'T RIGHT.

APPLE has to make a stand here.
Locked or Unlocked?

And, hence nolonger brick those who were first adopters to the iPhone program. For that matter, how about all manufacteurs making phones that are unlocked. Is that better?

I am not sure?

To me, it is wrong.
Wrong for another company to force Apple to unlock the phone.
THEN again... it is not Apple who is unlocking them is it.
It is T-Mobile doing this at a cost to the customer to steer them away from the idea. Yet, there are those who will pay for it.

Apple needs to face this and give us some light on the matter.

dougless

the unlockers aren't exactly going to be put out of business at that stupid price.

I don't own a iPhone.
I ain't crying over this... I want to know why this is justifiable.

The deal is Locked or Unlocked.
When a competing service supplier comes into play forcing a change in the deal then it SOULD be wrong.

T-Mobil has countered beautifully... but it harms Apple in a way for making the deal does it not.

I BELIEVE APPLE wishes to stay with LOCKED iPhones.
They will not change their position. However, Apple is open-enough to allow the service provider to offer phones sold as unlocked at higher prices.

Again, is this right?

Ok... maybe this is where Apple REALLY wants to go with it's Phone. I am confused. But Apple said it will BRICK unlocked phones... so IS THIS still the case?

It's getting messy - just like DRM music / video.

Apple maybe stirring up the market... and opening CONSUMERS up to the agreement plans that phone companies do to us... making us all THINK DIFFERENT... but was it the plan Apple wanted.

I think Apple needs to take a stand on this.
And explain if APPLE will legally let us unlock the PHONE.

IF NOT IT IS WRONG!!!!!

Apple = T-Mobile get real the iPhone in Europe for euro 399 = $596 (this is a premium that works out to $110 for European customers) inclusive sales tax plus a two year contract it's a rip off the phone should cost the same as in America an this is euro 325 = $480 inclusive sales tax. Then to penalise custermers in Europe because our consumer laws don't allow the sort of rip offs like the AT&T;in the states. Then to set the price for unlocked phones to euro 999 = $ 1478 isn't even worth talking about. Boycot the iPhone untill Apple takes its European customers serious. As a Apple customer for more than 20 years this is the worst behavior i've ever seen from Apple. If we're dumb enough to buy this when will we get our euro 700 rebat for the apple store.

@Mac4lfe:

Because not everybody has the excellent coverage that you have, and/or they travel to places that don't and wish to continue to use their iPhones for internet access.

@crazylegs:

Except for one thing: if the other carriers don't have the unlimited, flat monthly rate data plans that Apple negotiated as part of the deal, they'll end up getting ripped off, every month (assuming they use the iPhone), in addition to paying an exorbitant initial price.

Per kilobyte data plans are still common, altho unconscionably expensive.

Any German Speaking MacDailyNews users out there:

Can you look up Vodaphone Germany's data rates are and report back? Especially compared to T-Mobile Germany.

T-mobile says it will unlock any phone bought since November 19 - the date of the ruling - at no charge, so that the device can be used with other carriers. Even for 399 + contract

Nov 21, 07 - 04:06 pm Comment from: Spark

For those that complain about the locking/exclusivity to carrier: Apple (Jobs) wants to bring the Mac experience to cellular telephones. This requires an end-to-end control of the process. Visual Voice Mail is one example. The flat data plans is another. There are other features expected. Apple is attempting to shape a new paradigm in this technology space. One that rankles many used to the old style of manufacturers and carriers working independently. Apple has no leverage to shape the carrier services, and carriers have no motivation to change their systems, if Apple not provide the 'carrot' of exclusivity. Working together the end user DOES benefit. This is not ANTI-consumerism, as some have suggested, it is PRO-user. If regulations in some countries, such as France and Germany, value "Equality" over the idea "Liberty" to provide better models of service and capabilities, then that's their loss in my opinion. No one has to buy an iPhone if they don't like the constraints, and I don't think Apple should be forced to water down their product/service just so the product-side of the equation is equally distributed. I'm on Apple's side here.

Nov 21, 07 - 04:07 pm Comment from: Petey

re: T-mobile says it will unlock any phone bought since November 19 - the date of the ruling - at no charge, so that the device can be used with other carriers. Even for 399 + contract

----

The iPhone maybe unlocked and usable with other carriers in Germany now but you aint gonna get any help from Apple if the thing doesnt work.

You also wont get visual voicemail either, which if you use your iPhone as a pocket office like i do, you soon realise is one of the most valuable features ever on any mobile phone.

Visual voicemail was developed between Apple and the official carrier, and invloved alot of programming on the servers of teh official carrier to get working and I seriously cannot see Apple helping out Vodaphone for example for a start - even if they come begging to Apple to sort visual voicemail out.

I think SJ will never deal with Vodaphone again anyway regardless of how things go.

@ Dart Mark
«HOPEFULLY CANADA!!!!!!
Hurray!!!! Cos I ain't dreaming of using it on Rogers. I am hopefull - that if unlocking is legal that service can be with Bell Canada. I have my reasons.»

Just a little point : Bell Canada have no GSM network there. Bell use only the old CDMA network. Only Rogers and his Fido subsidiary offer GSM in Canada...

Peoples who are against ussimlocked SIM Card iPhone forget that real global users wantt to use theirs mobils everywhere in the World, only by swapping the SIM local cards. GSM mobile network is now the real world standard also for this kind of usage...

It's a little bit ironic that those SIM locked iPhone fanboys are adept of national networked ghettoes.

And they are even some kind of un-patriots because they refuse - with that AT&T;exclusive contract - a national access of iPhone for all Americans even in remote places in America, where AT&T;is absent, and therefor other GSM american networks could be available at those places...

And last but not the least : This price of 999€ offer for an official unlocked iPhone in Germany or eventually in France (Italy, Belgim, finland, etc...) , will be prohibited by courts in many European countries, because it's so excessive, that it's show all the apparence of consumer rights gerrymandering . There's laws in thoses countries against that kind of prices manipulation. Apple did'nt choose the good legal advisers about the consumer's laws in Europe...

Or! Or Apple knew all about that long before they agree to give exclusive contracts to AT&T;, Orange and so on. If this hypothesis is true, than this tactic is machiavelic...

Nov 21, 07 - 07:11 pm Comment from: Mac4lfe

@ Papyboomer

I bet you would like it if the government gave you everything for free.