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May 06, 08 - 06:39 pm Comment from: cptnkirk

I think that Apple is quietly planning to brick these things with the next update to 10.5. After all, it was nearly ready for distribution just a week ago. Suddenly there's no sign of it.

May 06, 08 - 06:48 pm Comment from: ChrissyOne

I'm totally with you on the Apple plant idea.

Know what I mean?

Hey MDN..."so" has only one "o" in it!

May 06, 08 - 06:54 pm Comment from: cptnkirk

I also think that if Psystar actually sell more than a few machines the boom will fall.

This is a crippled, crappy product with no software upgrade potential and missing a stack of software and features that buyers expect in a real Mac.

If it's really a kid building them in his bedroom and the deamnd is more than two he'll run of liquor store boxes and packing peanuts soon and stop.

I was wondering when the copycats would start surfacing... seeing no reaction from Apple, they seem to think it's full speed ahead.

I've started thinking that Psystar has some verrrrry shady connections (think Russian mafia) which Apple doesn't want to mess with - putting technological obstacles in the way of these folks, rather than challenging them directly, would indeed be the healthiest course of action if that's the case.

Microsoft, by making Windows such a security joke, has given a frightening amount of power to big cybercrime operators - they can command whole armies of zombie computers at will. With Apple starting to eat into the established base of Windows users, those cybercriminals can't be happy. Selling their own Mac "clones" - with specially-hacked installations of OS X which they can control by updates from their own site - is probably one of the short-term options they're pursuing to maintain their power.

I may be reading into things here, but with Apple's continued silence and (apparent) inaction on this matter, this is one of the few scenarios which seems to fit what's happening. I hope I'm wrong!

May 06, 08 - 07:00 pm Comment from: Mac-nugget

@cptnkirk
I think you are right.

Other then that, I think Apple doesn't have to do much. These systems suck big time. Macworld bought one, when they booted it for the first time, the thing made a horrible grinding noise. They pulled the plug. When they opened the case, they found a weir had been misplaced and it was grading against one of the obnoxiously loud fans.

How is that for first impressions.

@Victor Meldrew: Hey MDN..."so" has only one "o" in it!

And "sooo" has more than one 'o'. Note how MDN were so careful as to italicise this word.

So Victor “I can’t believe it!” Meldrew, talking about ‘o’s about which, remember the Two Ronnies hardware store sketch about 'o's, 'p's and 'four candles'?

May 06, 08 - 07:28 pm Comment from: HMCIV

MDN: No sarcasm on the internet please! It makes Senator Ted Stevens (R-AK) cry.

May 06, 08 - 07:31 pm Comment from: nanisani

It's also possible that Apple may be really worried that if they were to actually have to battle this out in court that they might lose.

If a court decides that Apple has no legal right to prevent others from making and selling computers that run OSX it will complicate their business strategy.

With this question in legal limbo it will be up to the cloners to sue Apple into supporting the clones.

I'm guessing that no one really wants to go to court here - except perhaps the fools who buy these hack-macs with some expectation of support.

May 06, 08 - 07:31 pm Comment from: Predrag

Apple is silent because this is weeeel below their radar (with multiple Es, italicised). Think about it: extremely small-time operator, advertising absolutely nowhere (outside of the minuscule circle of Mac fanatics who trawl Mac-oriented news sides, who has ever heard of them?) and it is unlikely that he would sell more than a few dozen boxes, mostly to enthusiasts who don't want to bother putting together their own hackintosh by themselves.

The guy on eBay is thinking exactly the same way. Apple is busy doing more important things than to waste time, effort and money on something as inconsequential as this. Eventually, they'll shut him down and take all his profits from the operation (if he even makes any).

Not enough Ls.

If Apple is sleeping at the wheel with this news then I am right there with them...

ZZZzzz zz z

well ebay removed it before i could ask him if he that what he was doing was legal or not...

at least ebay knows its not legal...

Ronnie Barker—I don't have that daft Honda any more and I quit using TCP!
Yes, yes, yes I bloody well remember that sketch! What the hell do you think made me go off again anyway?

God all mighty! I don't believe it!

May 06, 08 - 08:15 pm Comment from: Predrag

Let's not make any mistake about it: there is a 5-foot stack of legal precedents on Apple's side, one from their own case history (1984, Circuit Court of Appeals, Apple v. Formula International), where some guy(s) tried to build and sell computer kits that were compatible with Apple II software under the name 'Pineapple'; they supposedly wrote their OWN operating system that was too similar to Apple's. They were sued and lost. Since 1984, copyright law was only strengthened in the US.

As I said, this is so inconsequential for Apple, they have other things to work on (3G iPhone?).

There is another reason why Apple might be silent: The same reason they were silent about everyone trying to run XP on Intel Macs.

Maybe... Just maybe, they're making their own version of this.

I was wondering when the copycats would start surfacing... seeing no reaction from Apple

Apple's reaction will be called Mac OS X 10.5.3.

Good luck to the cloners when their machines break.

Hmmm, considering Steve's tendency for skunk-works projects...

What if OS X has some little hardware check feature that Apple can turn on remotely (or quietly via Software Update). What if the check then hobbles or kills OS X installs on non-Apple hardware?

Maybe Apple will fight the clones, maybe they won't. Hardly seems like a chance worth taking.

May 06, 08 - 08:37 pm Comment from: eMax

Its owned by Microsoft. This is their backup plan...

The reaction would have to be 10.6 not 10.5.3. 10.5.3 will be patched the same way 10.5.2 was.

Who cares???

May 06, 08 - 08:57 pm Comment from: occams razor

Sheesh do I care, do you care, this is crap, MDN stop reporting this rubbish.

May 06, 08 - 09:00 pm Comment from: HueyLong

Gabriel:

Yes, you are reading way too much into this. Russian mafia? Jeez, give me a break...

“What if OS X has some little hardware check feature that Apple can turn on remotely (or quietly via Software Update). What if the check then hobbles or kills OS X installs on non-Apple hardware?”

Sounds a little too much like Windows Genuine Advantage. Apple flicks the switch and bricks half the genuine Macs along with the clones.

You can see that it's been removed. Apple legal?

May 06, 08 - 11:08 pm Comment from: Petey

Yep - Im going with the next version of OS X bricking the non Apple hardware, same tactic as they are using with hacked iPhones.

I bet the next OS update will feature a firmware update which will check if OS X is installed on official Apple hardware. And if you are one of the idiots who bought one of those Frankenstein Macs then you are gonna have a dead mac come the update.

Good luck trying to get Apple to unbrick your unofficial mac too - you have no chance getting any support from the backstreet company too.

Fact is, if you want a mac buy it from Apple or an Authorised Reseller and not some company which will be gone in a months time after Apple takes them to the cleaners.

"Psystar's open invitation to the Mac maker to formally charge it with a violation of the Mac OS X licensing terms in a court of law"

What kind of crap is this?

You just break the law and you challenge authority?

Hey, IRS, I made $1M under the table and I am not sharing it with you, what are you going to do?

Maybe It's Michael Dell trying to restart his company from the garage of his mansion.

May 06, 08 - 11:15 pm Comment from: Roberto

Petey,
"…next version of OS X bricking the non Apple hardware, same tactic as they are using with hacked iPhones."

"Only iPhones that were SIM-unlocked wound up bricked by the 1.1.1 update, not iPhones that were “jailbroken” to run third-party apps; and there’s no proof that Apple deliberately bricked unlocked iPhones." - Jon Gruber

May 06, 08 - 11:17 pm Comment from: Roberto

Correction: - John Gruber

maybe apple just waits that psystar gets enough money for court...

May 06, 08 - 11:44 pm Comment from: phantasmosxmagnum

I just checked and as of 10:40pm CST and probably before that seller has no items for sale and the one that was listed is invalid. Hmm...

HueyLong,

You took the words right out of my mouth.

Gabriel,

Not everything shady is a product of the Russian mafia, or the Italian or American versions for that matter. It's just somebody trying to make a quick buck; and in this case is testing the legal waters. Nothing more and nothing less.

Chris555. I've heard that name before. I think. Weird.

May 07, 08 - 01:35 am Comment from: The Other Steve

Okay, that was a weird MDN take.

there will be a 100 pink *flamingos*

Chrissy 1 through 555 just had an excellent business idea...

@Gabriel

All I can say to you maaaate is this -

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they are NOT out to get you!

Re Chris555

Could make sense, If Aussie C Atkinson had driven a WRC Subaru car from between 1993 to 2000.

Go Chris.

Rest in peace Messrs. Colin McRae, Richard Burns, and Peter 'Possum' Bourne.

May 07, 08 - 06:27 am Comment from: derekcurrie

What a bright gang we have here. The comments are the most insightful I have seen about the clone warz. Dare I be redundant? Yeah. Here is what I have been posting about the subject:

As ever, Apple will update the OS and brick the clones. In the case of these eBay clones, the suckers who buy them won't know what hit them. Boohoo. Psystar, however, advise their suckers to wait for officially approved Psystar compatible updates. Should Psystar alter a Mac OS X update in any way, THEN Apple can sue off their butts with ease. This anti-trust hardware exclusion legal boogie monster may be out there, but without question it is forever illegal to alter the proprietary published work of anyone then provide the result to others.

Conclusion: Darn! Your clone only runs 10.5.2. Oh, and Psystar was sued into bankruptcy. You own a white elephant museum piece. EnJoY!

No unicorns - Robotic lesbian ninjas and Jennifer Frickin' Connelly.
I think I heard that at CARS. Or wished I would.
*Sigh*

MDN Word "member", as in "Does anyone else 'member CARS?"

I think Apple is just waiting to see if the business model collapses on its own. If it does than it's business as usual--"see there is no market for cheap Apple clones"
If it doesn't they shut it down.
They have three options then:
1.Sue it. Cease and desist--Patent/Copyright etc.
2.Break it. Aforementioned software update or perhaps new chips in new Macs.
3. Build it. Hey there is a market for an expanable sub 1k Mac. Here you go.
You'd eventually see all three.

In the meantime-- free market research. Not to mention the OSX86 project is a hardware compatibility skunkworks factory for any eventual OSX license program should Apple ever want to release the software to OEM's or consumer/hobbyists.

The one Chris had on eBay has been de-listed. Hmmm.

Strategy:
1. Let OS X grow in the wild on generic PCs until at least 25-50% of PC are running copies.

2. issue a PC version with a Serial number and network sniffer.

3. Charge PC users $400.00 for a copy of OS X.

4. No one buys Windows again.

Apple is waiting for these clones to crash and burn on their own. Like so many cheaper copies, they probably won't hold up over time. Look at the news about the cheaper HD TV's that is coming out - lack of spare parts, no service network, etc. I suspect many people do not want these same headaches in their computer and will go for the real thing.

I repeat my previous thought: Wouldn't a resurrected and updated 17 inch iMac make a great low cost way to get one's first Apple computer? Or a great second computer for the kids?

May 07, 08 - 11:52 am Comment from: Gandalf

One Invisible Pink Unicorn is all it takes and probably be a whirlwind rather than a stapede. MDN you should pay more attention to religious matters.

I look forward to seeing her soon.

The ebay auction has been removed from the service. Bricking the Psystar machines won't happen through the update of Leopard because so far, you can't use Software Update through system preferences. The only system updates will be through Psystar's web-site that they have to hack to make work on their machines.

May 07, 08 - 12:45 pm Comment from: derekcurrie

Evil Twin sez:
Strategy:
1. Let OS X grow in the wild on generic PCs until at least 25-50% of PC are running copies.
. . .
4. No one buys Windows again.

Well, great as it would be to free the world from stoopid Microsoft, this strategy is not in Apple's interest for a few reasons:

A) Apple consider themselves primarily a hardware company. Most of their profit is hardware based. The officially sanctioned Mac clone era in the late 1990s was a total bust for Apple. They lost money.

B) The other problem is that with the loss of any control on the hardware used to run Mac OS X comes technical support hell on Earth. As I often recall, NeXT had a thick booklet they distributed with NeXTStep/OpenStep of supported hardware configurations. The thing was at least 40 pages long, each page crammed with various configurations of PC hardware. Now imagine:
i) Having to test a pile of different PC hardware configurations for guaranteed MOSX compatibility. = Big waste of money.
ii) Having support that mess of hardware at Apple's technical support versus their current considerably short list of supported hardware configurations. Having done more tech support for PCs than I care to remember, I can tell you that it is a massive PITA. For example: There seriously is NO Plug and Play on the PC hardware platform. It remains outrageously difficult to get various PC components to work well together. Witness if you will Microsoft's own problems getting 3rd party hardware components to work well with Vista. This is well known to be one of the top reasons Vista is considered commercially not viable in the Enterprise market. Apple don't need or want this grief.
iii) Apple will be subjecting all their developers to similar hell on Earth as many programs absolutely depend upon the reliability of Apple's hardware platform configurations. Many developers are going to be seriously ticked off.

Conclusion: It won't happen. It would kill off the wonderful shiny happy mantra of Mac users: IT JUST WORKS.

I for one am not willing to put up with the consequences of working on the supremely unstandardized PC hardware platform, no matter what OS it is running: IT JUST BREAKS. That's not going to change by moving over to Mac OS X. Sorry.

May 07, 08 - 12:54 pm Comment from: derekcurrie

dogboy443 sez:
"...Bricking the Psystar machines won't happen through the update of Leopard because so far, you can't use Software Update through system preferences. The only system updates will be through Psystar's web-site that they have to hack to make work on their machines."

The facts you stated are correct. However, as I already stated here, if Psystar perform ANY hacking on any Mac OS X update, Apple will have them by the balls. Psystar will be sued into oblivion of breaking Apple's explicit rights to their proprietary code. This fact has nothing whatsoever to do with this anti-trust boogie monster everyone is chatting about. You can say byebye Psystar.

Result: You buy a Psystar box, you are forever stuck with Leopard 10.5.2 because Apple WILL brick any updated Psystar machine, and will have the absolute right to do so. EnJoY your doorstop.