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but it has no sandwich holder. and where am i suppose to put my slushy? its a deal breaker for me

Oct 17, 08 - 04:11 pm Comment from: Cubert

@Peruchito,
It sounds like you need the new Dell XPCL5-XA398U Turbo Maximum Extreme laptop. It's got your sandwich holder and cup holder and comes with a built-in microwave, along with all kinds of other crap you'll never use like a fingerprint reader and 18 USB ports.

LOL ^^^
My thoughts exactly.

Oct 17, 08 - 04:30 pm Comment from: Wun Dum Gai

I've had an Air since February and I haven't missed Firewire once. I thought it would be a problem not having Target Mode but this baby hasn't needed it at all, yet.

Oct 17, 08 - 04:42 pm Comment from: Cowboy

I've been using the SD based video recorders. The quality has really improved in this area. So, no big deal as far as video is concerned. However, I have a lot of external drives, and USB is slow compared to Firewire. So, I will miss it for that...

Tens of millions of folks will not even consider purchasing the new MacBook because is will not work with their brand new firewire-based video camera.

Heck, it won't work with half the video cameras that the Apple Store sells!

End of story.

I, too, have had virtually every rev of Apple's mobile Mac line since the Portable (more of a lug-able). And I don't agree that the new MacBook is the best yet.

Yes, I am one of those "no Firewire" complainers. But beyond that, I don't find much compelling about either the new MacBook or the new MBP. I need a new laptop, but I am almost certain to get a refurbished MBP from previous rev - a better value, and in my view, a better computer.

Yes, and Apple would have sold a million or two more original iMacs if they had only included a floppy drive.

Look what happened there. USB came into it's own.

Besides, the new Nvidia chipset does not include FW 400. A FW 800 port wouldn't have hurt the MacBook Pro sales all that much.

DV cameras also have USB2 connections. Enough with the DV camera comments. I thought the same thing about my 4 year old sony.. until I looked at it and noticed the usb port next to the firewire port.

just came from the Apple Store - these are awesome laptops. The MacBook is better proportioned in my opinion than the MB Air. The MB Pro is just down right awesome.

Oct 17, 08 - 05:14 pm Comment from: jarrettdailynews

End of story everyone, you are not buying the MacBook because of the lack of FireWire. Us and Apple get it. So now you can shut the hell up, and move on. Apple isn't going to be putting a FW port on this CONSUMER laptop.

Again, you and I are not important. Either buy it or don't, the execs at Apple build the products they want to build. They have never built the products that we all think they should. You know what has happened in the past? We all buy the products, and rave about how great they are.

Oct 17, 08 - 05:16 pm Comment from: Predrag

Jesus:

You're a bit confused. USB on MiniDV camcorders is useless for video (it's used only for pictures). All tape-based camcorders NEED FW to move video to computer.

That said, Old Guy with a Beard here is on a mission, so it seems.

Today, MiniDV camcorders can be had for under $200. In other words, that's the maximum value of the models people currently have. 9 out of 10 camcorders sold today are tapeless. No FW; just USB2. Some are SD, most are HD. And cheap ones can be had for $450.

Tapeless recording, transferring, editing and delivery is so much faster and easier than tape. For the past 7 years, I've used MiniDV for home video. I have some 50 MiniDV tapes and some 30 DVDs that came from them. Vast majority was done in iLife (some in FCE/DVDSP). I have switched to tepeless four months ago (AVCHD, Canon HF-100). The workflow is much smoother and faster, the results are simply spectacular (full 1080p HD).

Apple is recognising that during the next 3 years (time during which existing iBooks and MacBooks will become due for replacement by the new Alu MacBook), many consumers will have already moved to tapeless camcorders. The convenience is simply unmatched (no moving parts, no fragile media, more storage and archival options). The already minuscule number of those who would want the MB to have FW is gettins smaller and smaller every month.

Oct 17, 08 - 05:26 pm Comment from: luke255

Two weeks to wait for my MBP in Engalnd, anyone else seeing these unbearable waits?!

quote from "Old Guy With A Beard":

"Tens of millions of folks will not even consider purchasing the new MacBook because is will not work with their brand new firewire-based video camera."

Only a couple of million MacBooks sold in he last year and a half dude. Way to exaggerate, maaan!

Oct 17, 08 - 05:35 pm Comment from: Predrag

Jeremy,

Technically, Old Guy with a Beard is right; most likely, billions of people won't be considering MB. Majority of the "tens of millions of folks" will be in that group for the same reason -- they never were planning on getting a Mac in the first place.

Out of "tens of millions" who do have a MiniDV (or tape-based HDV) camcorder, negligible number will be disappointed about MB's lack of FW, and will consider other options. If they were existing Mac users, vast majority of that already negligible number will stay with Mac and figure something out. The remaining fraction of that number (about 18 or 19 people) will switch to Windows.

Oct 17, 08 - 05:35 pm Comment from: Demon

@ Old Guy With A Beard

The new consumer Video Cams typically all use USB2 not Firewire, prosumer Video Cams are about 50/50 the telling part is if the Camera uses a tape or not only the DV Tape Camcorders will have Firewire the rest are USB and USB2.

SD, HHD and DVDR are all USB and USB2 for the most part.
As long as your video camera is not DV tape then you're most likely good with just USB, and if your Camera is DV Tape or one of the few odd ones invest in a new Macbook Pro.

And if your Camera is a prosumer video camera you should be springing for a Macbook Pro anyway just for the video speed and processor speed need to run Final Cut Pro.

I remember when the pc clowns used to bitch because the Mac HAD firewire. Apple eventually had to revise their iPod builds to usb to keep the pc's happy. MSFT Cartel was anti firewire - They thought of it as a threat to the dog slow usb standard that they liked so much.

Firewire was a threat until USB2 was finally introduced. The MacBk is a winner, in every way. Great screen, great design, solid as a rock. The glass trackpad is smooth as silk. You won't even miss the click button !

The MacBook was never meant to be a desktop replacement. The pros were. It's a consumer price product. Apple is still going to sell these cuz everything else that they include and improved is worth it

yeah, I agree. Yesterday I went to apple store & played it fir a while. Design, size, feeling, etc... I just love it. There is no more explanation. I will buy MacBook pro coming thanksgiving.

Oct 17, 08 - 09:26 pm Comment from: Arnold Ziffel

But the new notebooks don't function as a drain pan when I change the oil in my car.

Deal breaker.

(with apologies to Peruchito)

"... I have switched to tepeless four months ago (AVCHD, Canon HF-100). The workflow is much smoother and faster, the results are simply spectacular (full 1080p HD)...."

@Predrag
Very informative. I didn't realise tapeless had advanced so far.
I'll keep my eyes open for an HF-100 or HF-10.
Thanks!

I visited the Store and played with the new versions, MB and MBP. The look, feel and operation of these machines are incredibly beautiful. I don't need a laptop, so I had to leave the store before I impulse bought one.

I don't know why Apple no longer provides the handy retractable cup holder. Where shall I put my Late? And can the new MacBook keep my buns warm when riding BART this winter?

@predrag

Don't you miss the security of knowing you have those DV tapes as a permanent backup for that precious footage?

I am a video neophyte and want to purchase a video cam, and I have read the miniDV tape cams have superior video quality for the price vs. hard drive cams. Plus, you always have that tape for archiving.

Oct 18, 08 - 04:06 am Comment from: gzero

I don't know how it is in the States, but in Europe (Germany in my case) there are very few tape-based camcorders on the market; all tapeless camcorders are equipped with USB 2. DV cams are now really cheap, but becoming more rare by the month. I believe that Canon now only makes 1 model of DV cam; the rest of their models are DVD or HDD based.

Stop with the MacBook CONSUMER laptop bullshit - it had Firewire before, why not now? Oh, because Steve decided to artificially differentiate the products because they were too similar. Recognise this for what it is.

And why does the MacBook Pro have a CONSUMER screen if it's a PRO model? - Steve said it himself "consumers love the glossy screen". Yeah good one Steve - most PROs think it's shit.

Kind of makes a joke out of all the PRO and CONSUMER bullshit you apologists are parroting.

It's not just video that suffers with the MacBooks - think of the audio interfaces/drives that educational institutions have - as well as their Pro-sumer cameras. (that run Firewire not USB).

I'm sure they all want to rush out and "upgrade" to laptops that don't play with the gear they have.

Steve's given education a big f@#$ you.

I'm sure they'll repay the favour by buying some other brand.

DO IT! BUY ANOTHER BRAND AND SHUT UP! GO BACK TO WINDOWS AND TELL ME HOW MUCH YOU LOVE YOUR FIREWIRE. PLEASE DO IT. I WANT YOU TO.

or.. by your rational, they could take out all the cool pro things, like the shiny screen, the glass trackpad, the solid frame, BUT just add firewire, and you will be happy.

on that note, i am also pissed off that companies are screwing education systems. think of all those vinyl record players our schools bought in the 80s, now fuck, we use cds?? shit, those things weren't cheap. i mean, my tax payer dollars went into that. nevermind i want my child to learn with the best 1985 had to offer.

and!

my fucking VHS machine! i'll never buy another movie again unless these bastard movie companies and tech companies support VHS again! i mean, don't they know how much money i invested in these tapes? i bought 2 players just so i can dub shit, and edit my own home movies! mpeg? dvd? fuck you companies for not caring about my personal needs! i mean, i thought you were my friends, i thought we were a team!

now it turns out you just wanted my money! holy shit! i think i will switch brands now, i KNOW they DON'T want my money. they want to be colleagues and they will support my tech investments.

(hey, if everyone else can rant, why can't i?)

@Steve's Conscience

Go ahead and buy another brand, enjoy vista!

I know I won't.

I don't mind the rant about Firewire... but I SERIOUS HATE, LOSERS who think they can emphasise their point by THREATENING to buy another BRAND.

If you want to terrorize the forums, I suggest you go and buy Vista on a Dell. And don't come back!!!!

i'm typing this on my hp compaq, and IT has a cup holder! my Lacie dvd burner at home is Firewire! what, oh what am i to do! oops; also has the usb plug on the burner. As for switching; yaaaah, i'm getting a dell, dude!

Oct 18, 08 - 10:25 am Comment from: Arnold Ziffel

Yeah, all you bitchers and moaners can just go buy a POS Dell, HP, Sony, etc. and enjoy the Vista experience.

Puh.

Oct 18, 08 - 10:55 am Comment from: Macintosher

Hey, my MacBook White has magnets on the screen. How about I get a magnetic cup holder and stick it on? Then I don't need to upgrade! Phew.

Real video pros have a G5, intel quad or octo-core at home, so 13" laptop, with or without firewire is inconsequential.
Guess what? Real pros buy their software too! Somehow it kinda seems those 'pros' who cant afford $700 more for a MBP probably didn't pay $700 for photoshop or after effects either, or $1300 for Final Cut Studio. Am I right? Huh?
I know quite a few people who are 'in business' but can't afford the tools required to do their business. WTF?
I had to buy Lightwave, and After Effects, and G5s and laptops because that's my business. Yes, I have an old G5 dual, but now I can afford a brand new Macbook Pro, it's called bud-get-ing. So flames to to whiners - Yee-Ha!!!

Hmmm...

I just bought a Dell XC-9001 and hacked it to run Leopard.
Trouble is the Dell doesnt have FireWire.
Damn.

That does it for me, I am going back to Vista on a new MacBook Pro, Apple can go f**k themselves.

Why doesnt Apple BUY Dell and put Leopard on the Dells with FireWire?

Why doesnt Steve Jobs answer my letters?

It's truly sad. Apple has moved into the relm of no choice. Everyone bow to this standard. My way or the highway. Whats wrong with offering firewire, or matte screens as an option? What the hell is wrong with veriety.

It's sad to remember the Macs introductory comercial in 1984. Think of it. Apple has become the crowd trapped before the view screen. All dressed the same. All marching in lockstep.

I have by your reckoning to spend £1400 to get a laptop with a firewire port.

Unlike the camera debate, my audio interface is firewire only and I chose Apple laptops and Apple software to run on it. I've invested this much money on Apple and they've shafted me royally with this 'upgrade'. I do on site recordings and a imac or a pro mac are both not portable and too expensive.

I'm a pro, but not every pro is loaded, what a stupid comment to make.

Oct 18, 08 - 10:01 pm Comment from: bobchr

@ARGH! of course you have a choice you whiner, $15 gets you a 14.1" matte screen overlay at Buy.com. Left to people like you Apple would still be making Apple II's

Oct 19, 08 - 12:56 am Comment from: Predrag

to Newton:

Image quality for tapeless camcorders of today is indistinguishable from that of tape-based models. Consumer tape-based devices use DV (DCT encoder at 25Mbps) compression in standard definition, or HDV (MPEG-2 at 25Mbps) for high-definition models. Tapeless models use MPEG-2 for standard definition, and AVCHD for HD, although some hard disk-based models also use HDV. Bitrates vary and all tapeless models offer several bitrates (with different image quality).

Tape-based HDV is in some ways inferior to AVCHD. Maximum resolution for HDV is 1440x1080, although Canon's HV-30 does some fancy footwork to capture full HD on tape. AVCHD can record full HD (1920x1080) at full 30 progressive frames. A month ago, Canon released HF-11 which, with the available maximum bitrate of 25Mbps has image quality superior to pretty much every HDV device out there.

MiniDV tapes cost arount US$5 when bought in packs. Blank DVD-R DLs cost under $1. One 8.5GB disc can take over 1 hour of HD video in AVCHD (at 17Mbps, though). It's ridiculously easy to back up contents of an AVCHD camcorder (whether SDHC, memory stick, internal flash memory, or hard drive) on a DVD.

Tapes as backup medium have rather limited shelf life, especially when recorded on such thin medium (as in MiniDV), and at such high density. Some of my MiniDV tapes from 2000 are beginning to show frequent drop-outs, so I had to have them backed up (using a borrowed semi-pro camcorder) on DVD-Rs (two DVD DL discs for a single 1-hour tape) in order to extend their life. Tapes are extremely sensitive to low or high temperatures, moisture, magnetic fields and physical stress (sudden motion).

SO far, optical media seems to be cheaper, more robust, more resilient and more reliable storage medium than tape.

If you are in the market for a new camcorder, spend $600 and get Canon's HF-100. You'll get breathtaking HD video quality, with very cheap, reliable and simple backup solution.

My problem with the lack of FW isn't video but the lost ability to hookup multiple unpowered portable hard drives and doing Target Disk Mode. USB often doesn't provide enough power to run a single drive, and there is no daisy-chaining at all. Even with the new Macbook Pro I'd have to remember to carry 400-800 cable or adapter. The bottom line is that FW400 devices are so common it is really dumb to take away the interface from the MacBook. It's taking away the options. Perhaps many of you don't care for FW, but many do and we're now stumped. I can't believe a single FW400 port is that expensive and there is definitely room for it.

Oh, BTW. Apple knows that most of us won't go and buy a Dell but we'll sooner or later but one of those simply because we have no choice. They know they can do it because - as far as Mac users are concerned - Apple has no competition, they own this market and they can do whatever they want and get away with it. They were right about floppy, I never complained, but it's way too early to drop FW. Besides, dropping the floppy didn't mean one would have to spend hundreds of dollars to buy new hardware as in this case. I have some devices that are FW-only.

Oct 19, 08 - 11:30 am Comment from: Predrag

Time for everyone to calm down a bit. FireWIre isn't going anywhere; Apple isn't going to kill its own child.

Other than FireWire, nothing else substantially differentiates MacBook from MacBook pro. If MB had FireWire, there would be almost no reason whatsoever to buy MBP. Now, FW isn't worth $700 in reality, but Apple had to do this in order to sell MBPs.

FireWire will have long, steady and prosperous life; just not on the low-end portable from Apple.

@Predrag

I disagree. I think its obvious that Apple thinks FireWire is dead or at least dying. I myself am not in the market for a macbook but if I was it would definately pick up one of these new generation of macbooks...for sure!
Well, at least until Apple fixes the issue where you have to reboot to switch between gpus in the macbook pros.
But beyond that these macbooks look great.

However, I'm really in the market for a device that is in between an iphone and a macbook. See, I'm a forward thinker. I do not want a portable desktop. Because no matter how thin a notebook gets the bottomline is that a notebook is....a portable desktop. you still need a desk or flat surface to sit it down and use it.

What I'MMMMM looking for is not simply a portable computing device....but a device I can WIELD! I want to WIELD computing power like some sort of power staff.
Like Lion-o's sword of omens "THUNDERCATS....HO!!!!!!!!!" *ahem*

No, the iphone does not fit that bill. I want to have the power of a desktop or a notebook that I can wield and use with one hand.
I don't think its a tablet either. Neither does anyone who wants an apple "tablet". I think people call it an apple tablet because they have no other way of describing such a device. I'm hoping beyond hope that Apple has some how solved this problem and is waiting to debut this device at January's MacWorld.

I don't need a fricken cell phone....I don't need an optical drive....but I do need wireless internet. I do need multiple sensor arrays and wireless connectivity. I can almost picture the device but I just...can't...quite....make it out.

I hope that Steve Jobs is still a forward thinker and isn't slowing down like everyone thinks. C'mon Steve! There has to be at least one more great invention left in ya before you seriously start thinking about leaving.

What a fucking boring argument this Firewire one is. Get over it children.

Deny yourselves the classiest laptop ever for the money if you want to. Just don't persuade everyone else not to.

Oct 20, 08 - 09:46 am Comment from: hagar57

"What a fucking boring argument this Firewire one is. Get over it children."
Why don't you take your arrogant attitude and shove it?

I think everybody should calm down. Maybe Snow Leopard will support Firewire over Ethernet.