“Apple’s Mac OS X remains almost completely free of any sort of malware threat despite several years of availability, a significant market share, and even an entire month dedicated to pointing out its flaws,” Shaun Nichols reports for vnunet.com.
Nichols reports, “And security experts are not exactly sure why. In an article for the McAfee Avert Labs blog, security researcher Marius van Oers pointed out that Mac malware is ‘pretty much non-existent at the moment.'”
Nichols reports, “The researcher said that out of 236,000 known pieces of malicious software, only seven affect Mac OS X. ‘With an estimated OS X market share of about five per cent on desktop systems we would expect to see more malware for OS X,’ said van Oers.”
“The Mac OS X system is not inherently more secure than other operating systems, according to the researcher,” Nichols reports.
Full article here.
MacDailyNews Take: Mac OS X is inherently more secure than Windows. Period.
Here we go again, once more for old time’s sake:
“Security via Obscurity” is a myth. Mac OS X has zero (0) viruses. For six years and counting. Zero Mac OS X users affected outside of a lab with old, non-updated Mac OS versions that were intentionally infected.
The idea that Windows’ morass of security woes exists because more people use Windows and that Macs have no security problems because less people use Macs, is simply not true. Mac OS X is not more secure than Windows because less people use OS X, making it less of a target. By design, Mac OS X is simply more secure than Windows. Period. For reference and reasons why Mac OS X is more secure than Windows, read The New York Times’ David Pogue’s mea culpa on the subject of the “Mac Security Via Obscurity” myth here.
Macs account for roughly 10% of the world’s personal computer users — (some say as much as 16%) — so the first half of the myth doesn’t even stand up to scrutiny. Macs aren’t “obscure” at all. Therefore, the Apple Mac platform’s ironclad security simply cannot logically be attributed to obscurity.
There are zero-percent (0%) of viruses for the Mac OS X platform that should, logically, have some 10-16% of the world’s viruses if platforms’ install bases dictate the numbers of viruses. The fact that Mac OS X has zero (0) viruses totally discounts “security via obscurity.” There should be at least some Mac OS X viruses. There are none. The reason for this fact is not attributable solely to “obscurity,” it’s attributable to superior security design.
Still not convinced? Try this one on for size: according to operating system release, according to analysts at Bank of America Securities, there are “22 million Mac OS X users” in the world and there are still zero (0) viruses. According to CNET, the Windows Vista Beta was released “to about 10,000 testers” at the time the first Windows Vista virus arrived. So much for the security via obscurity myth.
Related articles:
Microsoft’s Live OneCare ‘security’ failureware: dead last in test of 17 Windows security apps – March 07, 2007
Bill Gates has lost his mind: calls Apple liars, copiers; slams Mac OS X security vs. Windows – February 02, 2007
Security firm: 38-percent of malware already Windows Vista-compatible – January 22, 2007
FUD Alert: CNET tries to equate Windows’ insecurity to handful of Mac OS X proof-of-concepts – December 02, 2006
Microsoft’s Windows is inherently more vulnerable to severe malware than Apple’s Mac OS X – August 23, 2006
Chicago Tribune falls for the ‘Security Via Obscurity’ myth – August 14, 2006
Symantec details more security holes in Microsoft’s Windows Vista – July 26, 2006
Symantec researcher: At this time, there are no file-infecting viruses that can infect Mac OS X – July 13, 2006
Sophos: Apple Mac OS X’s security record unscathed; Windows Vista malware just a matter of time – July 07, 2006
Gartner analyst tries to propagate discounted Mac OS X ‘security via obscurity’ myth via BBC – July 06, 2006
Sophos Security: Dump Windows, Get a Mac – July 05, 2006
Security company Sophos: Apple Mac the best route for security for the masses – December 06, 2005
Apple Macs are inherently safer and more secure than Microsoft Windows – November 22, 2005
BusinessWeek columnist propagates discounted ‘Apple Mac security via obscurity myth’ – September 06, 2005
16-percent of computer users are unaffected by viruses, malware because they use Apple Macs – June 15, 2005
Another columnist trots out Mac OS X ‘Security through Obscurity’ myth – April 03, 2004
Columnist tries the ‘security through obscurity’ myth to defend Windows vs. Macs on virus front – October 01, 2003
Shattering the Mac OS X ‘security through obscurity’ myth – August 28, 2003
Virus and worm problems not just due to market share; Windows inherently insecure vs. Mac OS X – August 24, 2003
What kind of “expert” is this?
“Experts” are confused because they’re Windows “experts.” Wow, real shock there…
I think the concept of zero scares people.
There are scarier things, though.
Ballmer in swimwear.
Gates disco dancing.
Michael Dell singing karaoke. In a Speedo.
Watching Rob Glaser eat fajitas.
John Dvorak wrestling seventh graders.
Upgrading to Vista.
Answer…age old and tested nearly hand-written Unix kernel,
a real modern day long-term plan before writing the OS, not after, quality Objective-C code, and a little thought about how much trouble it would be later if they just packaged up the code and threw it out the door and make the end user and consumer sheep beta test it like Micro$oft has always done.
Instead of making swiss cheese and later plugging up the holes, Apple has made a long-term modern day solid block of impenetratable concrete.
No there are several OS X viruses, and at least a half a dozen rootkits available.
Problem, OS X ships with the features that those viruses need to spread turned off. So you can only attack targets that have opened themselves up to the attacker. Most people who know enough about OS X to use those features also know enough to secure them.
Unix security is relatively simple compared to windows has available. of course as Scotty says in Star Trek 3. The more they over think the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the drain.
Windows has numerous design flaws that lead to easy execution of code. *nix based OS’s solved those design flaws decades ago.
It is a whole lot harder to crack an OS X machine. It isn’t impossible, but it definitely not the work of a script kidde.
Isn’t Windows the longest and most expensive beta test in history?
Suckers.
@peragrin,
“No there are several OS X viruses, and at least a half a dozen rootkits available.”
Care to name them?
No answer? Well STFU you troll.
MW: boy – even a boy can write a virus for windows.
Lack of common sense baffles me.
“The Mac OS X system is not inherently more secure than other operating systems..”
Sure it isn’t, because you only need one exploit to root a box.
Amount of exploits on each platform is irrelevant!
It’s like two whores who are arguing who is more the virgin by comparing how many times and how they have had sex.
In the last few months Apple and software makers have/have patched:
31 issues, of which:
23 in software by Apple
1 in software by Adobe (because it installs using the admin password)
1 in software by Insanity LLC. (wise folks shouldn’t use APE framework and modules)
1 in software by Videolan (update VLC now!)
1 in software by The Omni Group
1 in software by Javelin.cc
1 in software by Maxum Development
1 in software by Panic Inc.
1 in software by Telestream/Microsoft (Microsoft software shouldn’t be used regardless)
31 issues, of which:
17 in OS X
8 in third party apps not installed by default
3 in Apple apps installed by default
2 in a third party app for OS X and Windows, not installed by default
1 in an Apple app not installed by default
1 in an Apple app for OS X and Windows
The reason Apple’s exploits don’t get as far as Microsoft’s is because of market share!
Also
1: Apple fixes their exploits rather quickly usually.
2: The Russians and Chinese can’t afford Mac’s.
If someone has a hard on for your box, they only need ONE exploit, not thousands!
Remember that. Don’t be a smug MacHead.
OSX was built with Security first, not as an after thought. So the fact that malware is virtually non-existant in OSX is easy to understand just like the lack of viruses are also non-existant in OSX.
C’mon MDM, there is no sound reasoning that says Macs should have 10 to 16 percent of viruses if the “security by obscurity” myth were true. That is a very poor counter argument.
And your other poor reasoning example that Vista had viruse(s) when only 10,000 copies were out, as opposes to Mac’s 22 million copies is also bogus. Why? Because everyone knows that soon enough 90% of computer users will be using Vista. There is no strong evidence that the Mac OS is going to displace the use of Vista.
I know that Macs have no viruses because the Mac OS is indeed much harder to violate, but quit using the stupid “should have 10-16 % of viruses” arguement. It is very weak.
New way to upgrade a PC to Vista:
– Turn on all the flashy crap in XP
– Change the background image
– Take some memory out of your PC
– Clock down the CPU
Easier and cheaper.
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Glad I have a Mac.
MW: want, I WANT Leopard… :-p
“The Russians and Chinese can’t afford Mac’s.”
What an incredibly bigoted and stupid thing to write.
The patches are irrelevent; the bottom line is NO VIRUSES. That could change, but for now, why is that such a hard concept for Doze apologists or the self-proclaimed “realists” to put in context w/Doze? Jeez.
actually Jim, i don’t know if you are aware of this, but if you ask a question and then state that he has no answer in the same post, you aren’t really giving him a chance to answer….
he is right though, there have been a hand full of exploits based on the BSD system and underlying tools, but they are not things that you can use on a Mac because it is closed down. they can be opened again, but if you know enough to do that, you know enough to roll your own BSD/Linux and secure it, so securing an OS X box should be a cake walk for you.
the security of OS X is vastly superior to anything MS has ever made, we all know that. but calling someone a troll for pointing out facts makes you look bad. especially when he is pointing out how secure the Mac is, and you think you are defending the Mac.
@WiseGuy:
No, you are wrong. Not all exploits are equal, not all of them allow an attacker to gain complete control. Some may lead to crashes, denial-of-service, and other types of assault. But not every exploit opens the door to complete take-over of your Mac, and thus there ARE degrees of security, not just secure/insecure.
The number of patches released by Apple and other vendors do show vulnerabilities, but for most users the patches are way ahead of the actual exploits. Such exploits are purely theoretical.
OK now boys, stop fighting!!
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We all agree that you are much much safer on a Mac. And while the reasons are nice to know, it does not make much of a difference. Safer is better. If you like being unsafe and always worring about viruses etc, buy a pc.
Me, I like my mac. When there are reported cases of a wide spread virus, then I will consider buying some anti-virus. Otherwise, I keep my system mostly safe, watch my spam and . . . OK, I gloat just a little when my co workers get a virus or their maching slows due to spyware. After all, I have to use a pc at work, so I know the fear. : -)
ne
Reminds me of an old joke which I won’t tell for the sake of brevity. I’ll just give you the punch line:
I don’t have to run faster than the bear, I just have to run faster than you.
If you read the original McAfee blog linked in the article. I don’t see where that statement is actually made. (unless it has since been deleted) So where does ‘the researcher’ actualy make that claim? The author just makes the researcher sound like an idiot. (He may very well be, but this doesn’t show it.)
WiseGuy, you are a certified moron.
@WiseGuy
The only problem I have with your argument is that I have not seen, nor heard, one instance of a Mac being hacked or infected buy a virus in the wild. Every report I’ve ever seen has been in a controlled environment. Your post also infers that the story would be completely different if only the Chinese and Russians could afford Macs. As if all the other countries in the world with access to Macs are incapable of producing a viable piece of malware. I don’t buy that, not for a second.
It’s true that no OS is 100% secure but Mac OS X has a staggering record of security that defies the laws of logic and statistics. You can’t blame that on market share, it has to be from solid engineering.
By the way, if you know of reports of Macs being hacked or infected in the wild please share. I’d be interested to read the accounts. Thanks.
“The Russians and Chinese can’t afford Mac’s.”
What an incredibly bigoted and stupid thing to write.
Actually it’s a complement to their hacking skills.
This article really does reek of old fart white-pontificating horse manure.
Listen, I’m the biggest amatuer conspiracy theorist out here and I’ll tell you exactly why so many bugs for Windows – Its MS idiots! Its part of their complicated MO designed to get people literally and completely dependent on Windows. I know its counter intuitive, but think about it, draw some block diagrams on a sheet of paper, connect the dots, and tell me what you come up with.
For me its as simple as this: Now that the whole world is virtually dependent on Windows, creating an aura of being constantly under attack in turn makes the poor user start to look for shelter, which in turn is happily provided by MS for a small monthly fee times nine gazillion users.
Listen folks, you’re still free to pull the needle out any time, life, neither yours nor anyone elses, will come to an end if you stop using Windows – really. Stop wasting time being mystified by who’s got more viruses and start changing the way you’ve been brainwashed to believe that computing is supposed to be. Personal computing does not HAVE to be frought with fear and frustration – really.
Its like the X-Files episode where Moulder and Scully are trapped in an underground cavern inhabited by a huge fungi that exudes hallucinogenic goop and creates the illusion of an alternate reality for it’s victims.
Now where did I put my little baggy of peyote dammit…
But Bill Gates said that people break the mac platform with a total exploit every day.
see this Article Is Windows Inherently more vulnerable to Malware Attacks than OS X?
http://www.infoworld.com/archives/emailPrint.jsp?R=printThis&A=http://weblog.infoworld.com/enterprisemac/archives/2006/08/is_windows_inhe.html&source=searchres
actually shen, it was more the fact he/she claimed there are viruses and rootkits for OS X without providing any proof.
If you’re going to make a statement as wild as that, you should at least have some evidence to back it up, without being asked to.
Mybe calling him a troll did make me look bad, but since this is the anonymous internet and my name is not really Jim, I couldn’t give a monkey’s!
Have a nice Day!
Could it be due to the higher levels of education and the fast that a lot of Apple users are in business and don’t have a lot of free time on there hands.
Or maybe it’s just all that upper crest inbreeding! <grin>
My sense is that MDN’s Take and others here addressing the Security-Obscurity myth is overblown and unnecesssary. My understanding is the the author is explaining to others why this myth doesn’t apply to Macs! Others reading about Mac security are likely to jump on the security-obscurity myth. The author here (I haven’t read the full article) is debunking it by bringing it up and saying why it doesn’t apply. He say, sure there are not as many Macs, but there are still an adequate number that some viruses should be seen. That specifically addresses those who think there are none because there aren’t many. Author tells those people there are enough to see some, yet none are out there. I see him addressing the myth still held by many and telling them, “Fine, if you claim there are fewer viruses [zero] than for Windows because there aren’t many Macs, why aren’t there at least SOME?” I don’t see him as making the case for the myth, but debunking it to those who hold it saying that the numbers have nothing to do with the security. Macs are simply secure and he and others don’t appear to know why. (whew)
“The Russians and Chinese can’t afford Mac’s.”
Number one: The above quoted phrase also demonstrates poor grammer… Macs not Mac’s. The apostrophe indicates possesion rather than plurality.
Number two: I am pleased to see that WiseGuy didn’t get it so hopelessly wrong by spelling Mac with all upper case letters.
Two is the MDM Magic Word too.
…”The researcher said that out of 236,000 known pieces of malicious software, only seven affect Mac OS X.”…
Yep, they are also known as
-Windows 95
-Windows 98
-Windows 98 2nd Edit.
-Windows ME
-Windows XP
-Windows XP SP 1+2
-Windows Vista
when run on a Mac via Parallels or where possible Bootcamp.
Case close, thank you Watson
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Again, for the thousandth time, show us an actual Mac OS X vulnerability out in the wild that has ever actually IMPACTED anyone (not some proof of concept bullsh*t), and then we’ll talk. It’s been almost 6 years now and there hasn’t been one yet…
It would seem that the concept of zero does not compute well with some people, much like dividing by said constant. Error: Does Not Compute. You are coming to the sad realization that Macs do not have viruses. Accept or Deny?
Funny, someone else had “boy” earlier as their word.
Supposedly, the average mac user is more affluent than the average Doze user, and the overwhelming majority of OS X users do not use any form of anti-virus. Since most, or at least a large part, of virus attacks are criminally-related for financial gain, don’t you think someone would have busted into unprotected Mac machines containing all sorts of personal and financial data by now if they could? It’s been 5 years since OS X was released, and every patch makes it even less likely to happen.
Of course malware developers are going to aim for the most prominent AND the most vulnerable platform. Consequently, as a Mac user who is a potential target, I believe that I am far more secure because of BOTH the robustness of the operating system and the low proportion of Mac users.
One way to phrase the debate is to ask what would happen if the proportion of Windows to Macs around the globe were suddenly reversed. I’m convinced that there would be many more attacks against the Mac platform (because of its greater prominence in that case), with an extraordinarily low success rate (because of the tight security of the OS).
Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.
It’s because the clueless ‘choose’ Windows and they are SOOOO easy to fool… and so it will be for a long time to come.
Job done. Call me smug. Whatever.
Lack of intelligence baffles reader.
The most prominent argument about OS X security is that it not profitable enough to target Macs because of its small market share.
This simply not true! Even OS 9 had more malware than OS X, and back when Macs had even smaller market share!
Also, if you carefully examine the facts you will see that this market share argumment is really illogical.
There are at least 22 million+ Macs out there with little to no protection software(anti-virus, anti-spyware, firewalls, etc) since most Mac users don’t see the need to installing these types of software.
Obviously this is very profitable low hanging fruit for any hacker/craker to install keyloggers, rootkits, etc to perhaps steal their usernames and passwords and make tons of money. Its well known that Mac users tend to be more affluent than their windows counterparts.
It is also an obvious target for the first hacker to successfuly exploit Macs with a virus, worm, other malware for bragging rights.
Especially for the first few hackers/crackers to harvest all these unprotected Macs.
Where are these hackers/crackers? Why don’t they break into all these Macs and make tons of money or for bragging rights?
You can break into my MacBook Pro..I do tons of online banking…you can steal my username and password? My computer is online most of the time.
I will be waiting…..like you have done with my XP laptop protected with many layers of security software installed, but somehow has been constantly compromised.
I am still waiting….
And..having spent a day and a half rescuing a company with Windows problems, it seems to me that broadly speaking Microsoft is clueless too…
Actually, that’s a pretty reasonable assumption to me, Huh. The underlying issue is not whether or not Windows is attacked more. I actually read something saying that Linux is targeted more one time. Still taking salt for that one. The issue is how many attacks are successful, and we all know that happens regularly with Windows. So yeah, send attacks all you want, but if they just roll off like raindrops on an umbrella, then it really won’t matter to us.
The only problem I have with your argument is that I have not seen, nor heard, one instance of a Mac being hacked or infected buy a virus in the wild.
MDN’s holding up the trophy of a lack of widespread Mac viruses as guage of Mac OS X’s superiority is misleading.
It just shows that Windows is worse than Mac OS X, but to a hacker who only needs one root level exploit, it’s irrelevant.
Hackers are not about to disclose their secrets publically and certainly not going to inform the mark of the infected computer.
Mac OS X’s small market share usually doesn’t attract the attention of those who need large numbers of zombies to spew profitable spam or crack passwords.
http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Science/20070107-042614-5177r/
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/securityfix/2006/03/when_macs_attack.html
OS X is built on UNIX; UNIX was created by Ph.D. computer scientists. Windows evolved from DOS. DOS was created by college dropouts. Enough said.
Writing malware for Windows is potentially more profitable for the writer than one for Mac. While Mac may have 16% of the world’s computers, they certainly do not have a comparitively large percentage of enterprise systems. I believe its is like the old saying, “People rob banks because that is where the money is.” Why should someone go to the trouble trying to beat OSX when it is so much easier to attack Windows?
well “Jim” it is good to know that if you think you are anonymous you will behave like a jerk. “character is what you do when no one can see you.” i guess we know what you are….
the fact remains, that he spoke correctly. there have been known exploits in the BSD subsystem, both Apple and many people hacking on BSD have fixed many if not all of them, none of them mattered anyway because Macs ship with a good default system services setup.
i am sorry that you feel that his not going out and tracking down every thread from every security discussion in the BSD community means he is a troll. i think however that we have seen empirical proof that you are not the person we should listen to for security advice however.
magic word”feed” as in please do not feed the “Jims”……
I have never bought the “There are no Mac viruses because there are too few Macs” argument.
Using WiseGuys flawed Hooker/Virgin analogy, picutre this:
There are 100 girls in the villiage. 98 of them are hookers and two are virgins. Which girls would be the biggest challenge and provide the most prestige?
You don’t think that hackers would love to be the first to expose a serious flaw in the Mac OS? Puhleaze.
@mdn
“Mac OS X is inherently more secure than Windows. Period”
how ?
sorry i don’t believe that, it’s just more secure because of the absence of malware.
“Writing malware for Windows is potentially more profitable for the writer than one for Mac. While Mac may have 16% of the world’s computers, they certainly do not have a comparitively large percentage of enterprise systems. I believe its is like the old saying, “People rob banks because that is where the money is.” Why should someone go to the trouble trying to beat OSX when it is so much easier to attack Windows?”
good question. why should people go to the trouble to hack IIS when Apache has the majority of sites running it?
people don’t generally hack windows to get an enterprise system. the value of data on a major companies machines is generally on a Linux/UNIX/BSD box or mainframe. if the reason you hack a computer is “it is where the money is” then you want to hack those. the computers with that type of data generally only have one face showing to the outside world: webservers. so webservers get hacked. yet even though the big targets run Apache, IIS has the lions share of hacks. why is that?
lets put it this way, you rob a bank cause that is where the money is, but you don’t rob fort knox, cause their security is serious. pick a bank, but pick one you can knock over…..
thus windows gets hacked.
the other reason to hack a machine is for the “street cred” so to speak. and that begs the question, what would get you more reputation, hacking a windows box, or a Mac. what gets more notice, something any kid with a downloadable script kiddie toy can do, or something nobody has done to date?
Macs are targets, and targets more wanted than most windows machines, yet we have seen how many hacks? no, it isn’t unbreakable, but so far Apple has stayed ahead, and even if the future brings us a hack, the record is still much better than the other major choice. it is that simple.
magic word “paper” as in all the threats to OS X on the security front have so far been paper tigers….
Hey shen, take your medication. No need to start questioning my character.
“there have been known exploits in the BSD subsystem”
Like I said to peragrin – PROVE IT!
I’m not saying that he’s lying, but you must provide proof of your claims to have any credibility.
MW: bad, as in shen is a bad lad, so forgive him.
“Which girls would be the biggest challenge and provide the most prestige?”
That’s easy. It’s Belinda, the 400 lb. hooker with one eye that runs that crocodile farm by the highway.
For all you idiots that never heard of a Mac before OS X.
Back in the OS 7 and OS 8 days there were over 50 viruses on the Macs.
The Mac user base back then was smaller than OS X.
So why did they have viruses, if Security via Obscurity is true??
Dumb Windoz geeks.
OK, everybody, just read what “Peragrin” wrote above. He’s got the right answer. And, Falkirk above does, too. This is the Hacker Holy Grail! They would love to be the first to create a self-propagating OS X virus – they just are unable.
Does anyone else remember the text strings found inside one of the recent QuickTime exploits? The author of that trojan (?) said something like, “so much effort for such little result”, or something to that effect. I think that is the best testimony possible.
Wiseguy, I am Chinese and I have had a Mac in China, since 1987.
If the availability of malware is based on market share…
5% (Apple’s market share) of (let’s say) 250,000 viruses etc…is 12,500.
There are 12,500 viruses for Mac OSX? Not here buddy.
I think a large reason that Macs don’t have as many viruses is the people who use Macs. With Windows users there is no sense of community. It is just your computer, because the whole world uses Windows. With Macs you have a community of people who go against the norm for a better computer experience. For Windows users they love to write viruses because it effects everyone who uses a computer, people they feel no association with, but Mac users I would assume don’t write them because they don’t want their tight knit community to have a security breach.
I agree the theory isn’t probably 100% true, but I think there is a lot of truth to it. Windows users have no sense of community, Mac users do.
OS 9 had some viruses and it was same if not less in installed base. OS X has been around about half as long as Mac OS from v.1.
Then why aren’t you writing Mac viruses?
By the way, I have a friend in Beijing named Wong, who drives a cab. Maybe you know him.
@Cubert
Cubert, your “Holy Grail” analogy is so much classier than my “hooker” analogy. Your mind ran to a higher plane and I’m mortified to say that my mnd ran into the gutter.
And we’ve ALL seen how quickly the internet, TV, and other mainstream media jumps on any hint or shred of a report that OS X has a problem, or a “possible” exploit or virus or trojan or whatever you want to call it that day. It instantly becomes FRONT PAGE NEWS. And then they mutter and mumble under their breath when it turns out to be blown out of proportion or unverifiable and put the retractions/corrections on page 29. Or they just ignore it and go on sputtering the FUD.
Lack of decent operating system from Micro$oft is even more baffling.
The National Security Agency – the U.S. government’s cryptologic organization, has given Mac OS X 10.4 a glowing endorsement for security.
MDN: “Macs account for roughly 10% of the world’s personal computer users — (some say as much as 16%)”
I would LOVE for this to be true, and really want to believe that, but where are the facts? Where is the solid, indisputable evidence? Evidence on the internet, as a whole, points that Macs make up about 5-6% of the world’s computers, and I think it is pretty clear, given the average mac users demographics, that they are far more likely to be used as a desktop or portable computer by an active Internet savvy user. Also, a large percentage of PCs are used only as servers, but a very small percentage of Macs are servers – an area I think Apple needs to really get aggressive in, and hope that they do when Leopard is released.
Anyhow, show me evidence, not hearsay.
“For six years and counting. Zero Mac OS X users affected outside of a lab with old, non-updated Mac OS versions that were intentionally infected.”
In the last month, people had thier private data stolen while on MySpace with Macs and PCs & the culprit was a QuickTime flaw addressed in the most recent OS security update. Some of the exploits happened prior to the release of the patch from Apple.
Not trolling- just simple factual information. The last time I checked, QuickTime is a component of OS X. Core Image, Adio,Video, etc all tie in to QuickTime on OS X.
I’m getting tired of the ‘Doze sycophants trumpeting “market share” as their excuse for why NO EXPLOITS have happened to OS X users.
In their warped little minds, 4% obviously means something akin to 50 or 60 computers, but the fact is that there are 22 MILLION Macs out there.
Malware authors would be complete fools to ignore 22 MILLION machines, especially when the VAST MAJORITY of them have NO A/V protection installed.
22 MILLION computers, owned by an argueably more affluent crowd, most of which have NO 3rd PARTY PROTECTION installed, at all, makes it apparent to me that OS X is more secure than ‘Doze.
Jim, i am not questioning your character, why bother, you already gave the answer before the question….
secondly, http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/14729 first hit i got from google. you may have heard of it, it is a search tool used on them there internets…
there have also been a few apache bugs, a wireless bug on the intel based systems, etc. etc. etc. most of them found due to BSD security research or Apple themselves, and most of them cleaned up without the general public ever knowing. as you demonstrated.
it is the extraordinary clam that requires extraordinary proof. you claim there is not and has never been a flaw in OS X’s security. prove it.
a few others here are simply pointing out that while there have been flaws, they have not led to exploits in the wild because Apple has a superior architecture and backs that up with simple intelligent know how and default service settings. which of these makes sense?
magic word “results” as in intelligent security has good “results” but don’t confuse it with magic.
@WiseGuy
“The botnet Taylor had tracked was created using a known security hole not in Linux or OS X, but in something that runs on top of the operating system. This is PHP, a development programming language built specifically for Web sites.”
Puhleeez! The first link is even worse as it offers zero evidence or information regarding it’s claim! These aren’t hacks of OS X. It’s PHP. It wouldn’t matter what box it was running on.
No offense, but, I think you need to be a little more intellectually honest.
I know of only one- Ding. But I knowingly put it on my Mac and can remove it at will. Permissions, permissions, permissions. Something Windows “experts” fail to understand.
Don’t worry, Falkirk! Go here to see that my mind is in the gutter, too.
http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/13026/
@Cubert:
Ah, great minds think alike!
@WiseGuy
“The botnet Taylor had tracked was created using a known security hole not in Linux or OS X, but in something that runs on top of the operating system. This is PHP, a development programming language built specifically for Web sites.”
Puhleeez! The first link is even worse as it offers zero evidence or information regarding it’s claim! These aren’t hacks of OS X. It’s PHP. It wouldn’t matter what box it was running on.
No offense, but, I think you need to be a little more intellectually honest.
Please stop claiming that Windows using population is clueless or stupid. Not everyone is expert in everything and has all the time on his/her hands to read all the forums including this. Do you all know everything about the car you buy, the food you eat, the clothes you wear, the press you read, the coffee you drink? I don’t think so. Some other people may be laughing at you for those reasons and call you stupid and clueless because you eat artificial, processed food full of chemicals that will ultimatelly kill you.
It does not bring us closer to anything by calling people names. Let the marketing machine reach them and convince them. Some people don’t even know there is Apple and not because they are stupid, but because they don’t care. There are other things in life than Apple.
Going back to ancient Rome, the thieves said always rob a big villa because there is lots of access. Never rob a small home. The small one is likely to be secure with a mastiff dog waiting for the thief. So the lesson? Go after MS. Lots of ways to get in and lots of potential loot once you are inside.
Microsoft security guru wants Vista bugs rated less serious
http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&taxonomyName=operating_systems&articleId=9013378&taxonomyId=89
“Please stop claiming that Windows using population is clueless or stupid. Not everyone is expert in everything and has all the time on his/her hands to read all the forums including this. Do you all know everything about the car you buy, the food you eat, the clothes you wear, the press you read, the coffee you drink? I don’t think so. Some other people may be laughing at you for those reasons and call you stupid and clueless because you eat artificial, processed food full of chemicals that will ultimatelly kill you.
It does not bring us closer to anything by calling people names. Let the marketing machine reach them and convince them. Some people don’t even know there is Apple and not because they are stupid, but because they don’t care. There are other things in life than Apple.”
No, I don’t know things about cars, but if I needed to have the same certificates that a mechanic has just to keep a NEW car running, then the car is a big piece of $#!+!!!
I was at Costco yesterday, and they have a software section. I’d installed Bootcamp and Parallels and thought, “hey, I’m going to look at this XP software to see about these ‘great applications’ I haven’t been able to run on my Mac.”
It was a huge pile of things like “Super Registry Enhancer” and “Ultra Malware Blocker 9” and Mega Antivirus this and that.
Oh, so this is what I’ve missing….
‘Lack of Apple Mac malware baffles expert’
If they are baffled, then they are not experts.
‘The Russians and Chinese Can’t afford Mac’s’
Hell, I didn’t know they could even afford Big Macs…
“Back in the OS 7 and OS 8 days there were over 50 viruses on the Macs.”
I can definitely attest to this. I was in service back then and saw many
ill affected Macs. A few of the viruses were catastrophic.
THINK makes a good point.
Malware does not equal virus. A virus is something that takes action without user knowledge or intervention and self-replicates to other computers (and therefore spreads). Malware is just a bit of code that does something the user does not want to do. Even a non-tech like me could probably create an Applescript that played an annoying sound. If I put that file into the Login Items of a co-worker’s Mac (while he was away for a few mimutes), and he did not know how to get rid of it, that would be malware.
But it really doesn’t matter WHY Macs are infinitely more secure than Windows. Real world evidence shows that Mac are infinitely more secure. That’s fine with me. Let the so-called “experts” scratch their collective heads.
I have to agree with Cubert. Plenty of people looked for the Holy Grail, and yet most gave up (or croaked).
You don’t think that hackers would love to be the first to expose a serious flaw in the Mac OS? Puhleaze.
In fact it actually took Apple to piss off a couple of black hats to have them start the Month of Apple Bugs which exposed over 60 exploits online in retaliation.
So before this, these exploits have been circulating sight unseen, potentially ever since Mac OS X has been out, over 5 years now?
Here’s the site and more bugs already listed.
http://kernelfun.blogspot.com/
Most Black Hat Hackers like to keep the exploits to themselves or trade them to gain status in their circle of friends who think the same way.
Mac OS X is far from secure unless Apple incorporates tighter and more compartmentalized security
Applications allowing hackers to gain root access is just intolerable from a security standpoint.
Apple’s security is better than Microsoft’s, but it’s not enough.
From: Thorin
“Back in the OS 7 and OS 8 days there were over 50 viruses on the Macs.”
I can definitely attest to this.
I was in service back then and saw many attestill affected Macs. A few of the viruses were catastrophic.
THINK makes a good point.
My Mac career began with OS 6, and never was any machine hit with a virus. Fifty is exaggerating. There were 39 or 40, spread over the years from System 6 to 9.2.2. The biggest hit came from MacAddict when it shipped a virus in its magazine disk. Disks, mostly floppies, were the only way those viruses spread, and when a machine was infected, it rarely could infect another, unlike the 120,000 to 150,000 viruses spawned in Microsoft’s slough of reeking muck.
Anyway, what do systems 6 to 9 viruses have to do with OS X and the price of tea in China?
Falkirk –
I think a little bit of Nash Equilibrium would help you in this Whore/Virgin equation you are framing out…
Even if you were aiming to ‘bed down’ the two Village Virgins for the prestige and fame, You would still be seen from time to time entering the town’s whore-house to release a little tension from all your hard work at courting the two with clean slates.
By intentionally not focusing exclusively on the primary target, you will have the ability to exceed the value of the primary target – Translation: you will get laid more by not setting your goals too high.
this is sort of a variant of security through obscurity, which is illogical, cause sooner or later at least one Virgin is going to get banged… but to date it has not happened. One could then conclude that the Virgins are truly goddesses and any attempt to deflower them has been by unworthy, unclean hackers. Someday a knight in shining armor will arrive to ‘do’ the princess, but even those worthy enuf could not bear to tamper with perfection….
MW – keep …’i keep rambling’
Ok, of the 7 that affect OSX, how many of those were written by Microsoft? Hee Hee
Check out http://daringfireball.net/2004/06/broken_windows Very interesting take on this.
@Jack A
A very interesting article. But I deeply resent the fact that you’ve attempted to interject logic and facts into this debate when I, Cubert, Webmasters Apprentice and so many other distinguished notables are doing our very best to twist this into a discussion about the pros and cons of having sex with hookers and virgins.
The point about Vista in the MDN Take is… Well, it’s daft. sorry, but it’s using exactly the same logic-lacking arguments back at the Obscurity crowd only more so.
Vista was *never* obscure. It doesn’t matter if it has 10,000 users or just one. It *will* be on at least 80% of all computers. Obscurity is not a factor and the argument is just as flawed, selectively factual and misleading as the argument it’s trying to debunk.
And, no, I’m not a Windows fanboy. I just think that Nietzsche had a point.
@Daniel P. Said: “I just think that Nietzsche had a point.”
Nietzsche said: “That which does not destroy you makes you stronger.”
Falkirk: So I gues all that Malware makes Microsoft’s OS stronger.
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”smile” style=”border:0;” /> Good luck with that.
Actually, I was gunning for the whole “If you fight monsters you should take care not to become one” bit.
He had too many quotes.
@Daniel P.
Yeah, I was just kidding. Although I really like your quote:
“If you fight monsters you should take care not to become one”
Sort of a “the ends do not justify the means” deal. Good quote. I’ll try to remember it.
One term: ActiveX
ActiveX and Microsoft’s implementation of such are responsible for an unbelievable number of Microsoft’s security woes, and the sad fact of the matter is that experts in the fields could see these troubles coming.
Wiseguy
Mac OS X’s small market share usually doesn’t attract the attention of those who need large numbers of zombies to spew profitable spam or crack passwords.
I’m sorry, but absolutely everything to this point in time proves that that sentiment is completely untrue. BSD and Unix systems and software based on Open Source run the internet, and remote exploit and control of those systems would grant you more access and more control than an army of bots. The simple fact of the matter is that remote exploits along the line of Microsoft’s ActiveX and Outlook script exploits simply do not exist on Unix based systems, and that includes the Mac.
They simply do not exist. Those exploits on the Mac do not exist. Nada. Nothing. Zip. Goose Egg.
I’ve run out of ways to say it. There are no gaping security holes on the Mac that can be exploited in the same manner that Win PCs can be turned into bots. There never will be, unless you sit in front of and compromise each Mac by hand.
Windows users get more viruses, mallware and spyware, not just because Windows is obviously sold as a wide open, vulnerable system, but also because Windows users are always trying to get something for nothing.
Get onto Yahoo! Answers, and you’re always seeing people who want to find a place to download free movies, get free MP3s, download free copies of Adobe Photoshop, etc. Is it any wonder how those people get exposed to hacks and viruses?
Plus, you see the bad attitudes that Windows users have (even towards each other); all the angry put-downs, and the mean-spirited opinions. Sure, you see some of that within the Mac community too, but not near as much. I mostly see Mac users more than willing to help each other out, than to put each other down. Maybe that’s from the types of computers that they have to work with, compared to the ones that we work with.
@Rudge
Please stop disparaging Windows users. I’ve used Macs since 1985 and I’ve used windows and now I’m back to using Macs fulltime.
The idea that Windows users are careless and Mac users are all tech savvy computer gods is arrogant, elitist nonsense. You can take it from me. I didn’t become dumber when I used my PC and smarter when I used my Mac.
Take a look at your post and ask yourself: Have Mac owners ever tried to get soething for nothing? Download free moves? Get free MP3s? Get free software? Have bad atttuedes.
Theres actually some irony to the end of your post: “Windows users have all the angry put-downs and mean spirited opinions.”
Geeez, I guess classifying all Windows users as cheap, stupid mean spirited fools might aslo be classified as “angry” and “mean-spirited”. Don’t ‘cha think?
“you think someone would have busted into unprotected Mac machines containing all sorts of personal and financial data by now if they could? “
It’s a numbers game. If you’re interested in financial gain you’ll do the work to target 95% of the PCs in the world and not bother doing the same amount of extra work to target only 2% more of them.
@Rudge
It is always dangerous to use sterotypes. IMHO Apple is more secure, as the lack of problems shows, however I do not think you can ignore the effect of a larger population of MS machines on the amount of malware affecting it.
The machine should be designed to have security built in, and should be simple to operate such as any other piece of home entertainment equipment.
Tongue in cheek you could argue that the mac is designed so a child could use it!
In regard to choice of mac or pc, the upfront cost is what most will base their choice on, and not consider the long term costs of having to manage AV programs, etc.
For background, I have been using various forms of windows for the past ten years and am considering the purchase of an apple mac.
@ Wise Guy,
Your example involved physical access to the Macs in question. In fact every known OS X hack, those proof of concepts made by anti-virus vendors, has been done through physical access to the Mac. They owned the Macs they hacked.
Anyone can hack their own computer. You can wipe the hard drive and lose all your data with ease.
My Macs have been online without anti-virus for years without being hacked. I do have a state of the art burglar alarm system on my very secure house. Perhaps my secure house is the reason my Macs have not been hacked.
Obviously none of you have ever done a google search for “Virus Kit”.
Anyone who thinks most viruses are written from scratch is giving these script kiddies waaayyy too much credit for their stupidity.
You can freely buy a CD full of virus code and modify it. It all works on Windows, it’s been out there for years! You change the virus signature, add a payload and click send – seriously.
There isn’t one for Mac because nobody’s accomplished an initial virus attack yet. But for a PC, I don’t doubt a 6 year old could modify one and send it on it’s way.
Sophos et al are a bunch of self serving a**hats. If they had half a clue they’re figure a way of making these easily obtainable kits obsolete, but then again, that would put them out of business…
@Obvious: “It’s a numbers game. If you’re interested in financial gain you’ll do the work to target 95% of the PCs in the world and not bother doing the same amount of extra work to target only 2% more of them.”
That argument just doesn’t work for 4 reasons.
1) MONEY ISN”T EVERYTHING: Lots of hacking is done for non-monetary gain. As has been expressed above, hacking the mac is the “Holy Grail” for hackers. The small number of macs might not entice them, but entering virgin territory would be a great draw.
2) 22 MILLION IS A BIG TARGET: Although Macs may be a small percentage of the overall PC population there are still 22 million mac users. It’s hard for me to believe that not even 1 hacker would decide to take the trouble of hacking 22 million machines.
3) GO WHERE THERE ARE NO LOCKS: Macs are almost completely unprotected. I had a PC. It had all the spyware, anti-virus, blah, blah blah on it. I bought a Mac and I’ve got NOTHING working to protect it. And that’s true for about 99% of all Mac users. So a hack of a Mac would be like breaking into a walled city where none of the house had locks. Wouldn’t that be attractive to a hacker?
4) WHAT ARE THE ODDS: There are 22 million Macs. There are what, millions of hackers? The Mac OS X has been in existence for about 6 years. With all the Macs for all those years and you don’t think that ANYONE of those hackers woud have taken a stab at cracking the Mac? Come on! There’s no chance that a certain percentage haven’t tried and failed to hack the Mac/
OSX/Leap-A
That’s an os x virus. so much for your claims.
And now you’re just embarrassing yourself. Security via obscurity is EXACTLY why os x has so few viruses. There’s just nothing to gain by making them. Practically no one uses Macs, so what’s the point?
Jedi Master
OSX/Leap-A
That’s an os x virus. so much for your claims.
No one is claiming there are no viruses. It’s just that the viruses that do exist HAVE NO EFFECT in the REAL WORLD!
And now you’re just embarrassing yourself. Security via obscurity is EXACTLY why os x has so few viruses. There’s just nothing to gain by making them. Practically no one uses Macs, so what’s the point?
What’s embarrassing is that with the wealth of information available on the web and in print, people like yourself continue to bleat assertions that are completely untrue. It can be safely argued that the contingent of the population that depend on Macs for their hardware and OS are far more important that the army of desktops acting as dumb terminals in every corporation and business. Yet we never hear of a print shop, animation studio, newspapers, university physics lab or medical facility running MAcs taken down by the latest incarnation of the Blaster worm. Why? Because those threats DO NOT EXIST on any platform outside Windows because no other OS ALLOWS IT TO HAPPEN!
You CANNOT make a Blaster style trojan/virus/whatever that propagates on Macs/Unix/Linux the way they propagate on Windows. It simply CANNOT be done and all notions to the contrary are based on ignorance.
Before you soil the reputation of Jedi, perhaps you should do a bit of studying.