“IT workers at Apple are subject to conditions resembling indentured servitude and, in violation of California state law, are denied required overtime pay and meal benefits, a lawsuit filed Monday against the computer maker alleges,” Paul McDougall reports for InformationWeek.
“David Walsh, who worked as a network engineer at Apple from 1995 until last year, was routinely forced to work more than 40 hours per week, missed meals, and often had to spend evenings and entire weekends on call without receiving an extra dollar of pay, according to the suit,” McDougall reports.
“Walsh’s attorneys contend that he, and other Apple IT workers, were purposefully misclassified as management by the company so it could avoid paying them overtime rates that California legally requires for nonmanagement personnel and also to avoid lawsuits,” McDougall reports.
“The attorneys are asking the judge to grant class status to all of Apple’s California IT workers, including those who are dispatched to perform support functions at Apple retail stores,” McDougall reports. “If successful, the suit could cost Apple big bucks. IBM was forced to shell out $65 million in 2006 to settle a similar case brought on behalf of 32,000 tech workers at the company.”
More in the full article here.
Just give em some stock.
People are too soft in general nowadays.
ha $65 million apple could give up $650 million and be fine
Well hey, these people knew the crack when they accepted their contracts. I agree, people should get what they are due but if you agree to be salaried in the first place there’s no point locking the stable door after the horse has bolted!!!
I’ve been both waged and salaried before and salaries have always been reasonably larger to make up for the lack of overtime.
I would also suggest that Apple give stock (or a profit share scheme) to staff who don’t get paid overtime. And that they pay dividends as well. It makes sense.
If Apple has done by their workers, than I hope they lose the lawsuit. I expect better than this from Apple.
done [wrong] by their workers…
I never understood these sorts of things. If it was so horrible, why didn’t the guy quit? It must not have been that bad if the guy stuck around for 12 years.
It must have been tough putting up with “indentured servitude” for 12 years. Come on now. 12 years really, then he remembered he could…,what’s that phrase,…oh yea, QUIT. 12 years. Meal benefits? What? They didn’t let him eat? Yikes!
I thinking he got canned and is disgruntled. It’s the 1995 to last year part I’m wondering about.
Speaking as someone who has been in the same boat as these employees and also as an Apple fan, I have to say that I hope these employees take the company to the cleaners.
A company earning as much as Apple does and which also profits in a big way from the workers dedication and efforts (wow, you mean Steve Jobs isn’t the sole excuse for a multi-million yearly turn over?) has no excuse for treating people in such a shitty manner.
I repeat: NO EXCUSE
If it is true, Apple should pay. The court is the one to decide. That’s why we have courts.
Yep, this sounds like my IT job too. So what’s the news here?
Quote: “David Walsh, who worked as a network engineer at Apple from 1995 until last year, was routinely forced to work more than 40 hours per week, missed meals, and often had to spend evenings and entire weekends on call without receiving an extra dollar of pay, according to the suit,” McDougall reports.”
IT’s are usually on Salary, not hourly pay, so no you wouldn’t get extra. And there are always stretches that you spend more than 40 hours. I’ve put in 70+ in certain critical weeks working until 1 a.m. and weekends too.
I bet I make a hell of a lot less yearly salary pay than an Apple employee!
P.S. And I can’t tell you how many lunches I’ve gone without while solving the latest crisis.
I worked for a company which did the same thing – classify certain workers as management to get around the law in California. Most companies do it. I was one of those guys. I stuck with it and then became ‘real management’, and then carried on. Do to others as they do to you.
In my next life I’ll know better. Maybe!
Pastrychef and British Mac Head:
The reason that the employees have a case is that the US gov’t has laws regarding this, just like they do with minimum wage, sexual harassment, etc. You can’t skirt the laws by having someone sign a contract, or by saying “they knew going into this what would happen.” You also can’t use the old “if they don’t like it, they should quit” line. It would be very similar to a boss groping an employee then telling her, “If you don’t like it, just quit.” Illegal. I think the workers have a case.
@ Dirty Pierre le Punk
Just because the company makes lots of money, does not mean that they owe employees any more than their agreed upon salaries and wages. When the company was losing money, did the employees take money out of their pockets and put it in Apple’s bank account?
I know some of these Apple IT folks and the lawsuit description isn’t too far from the truth. These people work like slaves and should be compensated accordingly. Without them, the Apple Stores wouldn’t operate so smoothly.
is that companies are finding that they will be required to pay. Free enterprise devolves into Feudalism (“indentured servitude”) without proper government oversight.
Main point here is that we have a 40 hour legal work week in this country. Like it or not, that’s the current law of the land.
Salaried folks do not get paid overtime, it’s true but there are two key issues here and IBM just lost a big time lawsuit over the second one and it’s only a matter of time until it, or another, major IT company loses on the second.
1) While your salaried employees may well put in overtime, a company cannot, as a condition of employment, require consistent hours in excess of 40.
2) An organization cannot use titles or grades to create exempt and non-exempt employees. It the situation cited, if both the exempt and non-exempt employees were doing the same work, regardless of title, then both are due overtime, and Apple will surely lose. The IBM precedent is set.
It terms of meal allowances, my assumption is that this is related to the overtime. When working overtime, many organizations provide a meal allowance because if the employee were not working they would have the option to prepare a less expensive meal at home. This is also the reason why most companies do not provide a lunch allowance because most people have an expectation of going out for lunch or bringing something from home. I don’t think this is a legislative issue tho…more a policy.
All that said…this is a silly issue for Apple to take a stand. Google, for example, provides gourmet quality organic food for its employees AND their families when they are working late.
Finally, if someone is on call with a pager, it’s simply ridiculous to not compensate during that time. If those are really the facts, Apple will lose on that issue as well.
Oh come on Pierre & macnut. We’ve all had shitty jobs before. This gut wasn’t there for 2 years he was there for 12. He must have been happy with his salary at the time or as the chef and Shiva said, he would have quit.
It’s typically a case of a disgruntled ex-employee finding out later he may have had opportunity to get these things if he wasn’t a manager. However as the article says, he WAS a manager. I bet he was very happy with that title at the time. I bet he showed it off to all his friends. Just because some greedy assed lawyer told him he might be able to argue the manager status thing doesn’t mean it was right to do so.
OK, for those who haven’t done this for a while and forgotten the process, here’s how you get a job:
A position is advertised and so are it’s benefits.
That position will say IT Manager in his case, Salary $xxxx, benefits xxxx etc.
You apply for that position.
You get shortlisted and contacted for an interview.
You go to the interview where you have every opportunity to ask about the salary and what other benefits may be on offer.
You get a call offering you that position.
Your agree and your CONTRACT OF EMPLOYMENT is drawn up.
Where in this process does it state that when you leave you can argue that you weren’t really a manager and ask for settlement for your overtime.
It’s bollocks. Employers have rights as well as employees. That’s where contracts come in.
I am sure this guy had plenty of opportunity to apply for a demotion to “wage earner”. But it would have no doubt incurred a lesser basic.
You can’t have your cake and eat it!!!
Apple deserves to win in this case.
I am speaking as an employer that had an asshole working for him who tried to move the goal posts after I sacked him for being a lazy bastard and nearly killing my company.
If Apple were such a crap company to work for you would hear this sort of stuff every week!
pastrychef,
The company pulled a fast one – they re-classified people so they could rip them off. I have no problems with companies expecting hard work and commitment from their workers but when they do get it, why should they have to go and pull shitty tricks like re-classification?
That’s what winds me up.
And in Apple’s case, when the company was losing money (due to bad management) the employees can’t be held responsible.
Salaried management personnel enjoy perks that wage employees do not, such as a higher pay scale, better benefit options and more options for taking time off instead of pay. If you fail to expense your meals, etc, within the guidelines than it is your own fault. But if Apple is operating outside the government standards then they should be accountable.
this happens in every industry and every business… and is one of the reasons why labor unions were formed many moons ago. Then we went through a period where unions fell from favor… now perhaps they will surge again.
No one looks out for number one. you have to look out for number one… or you will get abused. At a certain point I would expect the employee to discuss things with management. If the employee does not, management will continue to squeeze as much productivity from the employee as possible for the least amount of pay and compensation.
Some people are just big babies and jerks.
Countersue him.
Apple better pay up!! I work in for a company who actually pays me overtime now and it feels way better than my last company who didn’t pay me overtime, and I’m A.C.S.A. So I recognize the hard work these people are doing.
In New York (like Cali) by law you are required to be paid overtime after you work more than 40 hours unless you are management, I.T. isn’t so I hope apple loses this case and I still love Apple but you can’t treat your workers like that.
Boo Hoo.
They signed on and should live up to their contracts. I worked in the financial industry where we worked 60+ hours a week for a straight salary. You just know what you have to do for the job.
The question is hourly of salaried? If the guy is payed by the hour he has a case, if not he needs another job. Most IT people are not payed at an hourly rate, most IT people know this when they accept employment. Typical whiner, takes the job knowing the job requirements, and then tries to change the rules. If hes a temp. he has no rights.
Apple pays IT employees very, very well, beyond the standard industry average. I thought overtime for non-management employees only applied if the employee was payed under $50,000.00 per year. I know Apple IT Staff members all earn in the $75,000.00 to $250,000.00 range even newly hired staff start at about $75,000.00.
Should a highly compensated professional be expecting overtime pay in the first place?
At what level of professional pay structure should an employee be exempt from over time pay?
please Steve, may I have some more?
“You go to the interview where you have every opportunity to ask about the salary and what other benefits may be on offer.”
Except it doesn’t always work like that does it? Ever been lied to in an interview? I have.
One week into the job, I found out that it wasn’t like it said in the brochure. By that time, it’s too late. A mortgage, a family to look after and a crowded jobs market meant it took me an age to get out of the trap I fell into and the job I so desperately eventually left to take, set me back so far that it was almost like starting over again.
Even now, years later, my career is still feeling the effects of a crappy, weasel employer.
You guys type fast lol
“1) While your salaried employees may well put in overtime, a company cannot, as a condition of employment, require consistent hours in excess of 40.”
That’s not really up to the companies is it. If the Salaried person is slow and lazy and chatts to his friends on the phone all day and doesn’t get the tasks done within the 40 hours then they can be expected to stay behind and finish them. It’s what they’re paid for.
My wife is currently salaried and she is so efficient she leaves early every day and still gets the same money for less hours. Because her work is done.
Having a salaries, managers are supposed to stay behind or pop in if necessary to finish the work they haven’t finished. Either that or demote them and pay them a lesser basic wage and overtime.
Accepting a responsibility is why basic pay for salaried staff is better than basic wages.
And yes, it would make sense for Apple to provide a great free meal or buffet for salaried people working overtime. I agree with that point entirely.
The moral to the story is, if you’re quick and efficient at your job you incur less overtime.
That’s what I have always found with any salaried jobs I’ve had.
@ British Mac Head
I’m salaried and my company is very much smaller than apple revenue @ less than a percent of what apple makes ($130 million in revenue) and ALL OF I.T. gets paid overtime, so please don’t gives us the BS, apple is wrong here bottom line it doesn’t matter how long he was working there, a fact is still a fact! You can love working somewhere and still be under compensated, you think everyone jumps from job to job only to hate where they work but be paid more? this is a case of contentment but still doesn’t change the fact that Apple was cheap enough not to pay the people overtime, period.
PS= Without Apple I won’t be driving my nice BMW and have my nice condo in Brooklyn, NY but I believe when in calling a spade, a spade when I see it.
I don´t believe this. When I was working at Apple everything ie salary and benefits worked like clockwork. Everything was paid in time.
What’s so wrong with volunteering your time? Thats what they guy has been doing since he obvious never complained before. I do it all the time at work and never ask pay for it. A little here a little there cause stuff just needs to be done. I definitely agree with British Mac Head. Though some times you just need more people to do the job even if those people can’t be found and in thus case you work more hours.
OK Pierre, fair enough, your employer was an arsehole. But is you read what Demon put down about the Apple IT payscale I will tell you this. I run my own company and if I could earn what these IT personnel at Apple earn I would for 20 hours extra overtime a week for that sort of pay and happily say “don’t worry about the overtime Steve, you pay me enough already”.
Hell, it would be 20 hours less than I do already for a fair bit more cash I’ll tell you.
Form what he said and the dude from Finland Apple still deserves to win. $75k starting pay. That’s like £37,500.00 a year. Up to $quarter of a million. £125,000.00.
The argument for this guy is moot!!!
After 12 years he must have been at that higher payscale. What do you guys earn a year who are supporting this guy’s argument? I bet it’s less than that eh!!!
I certainly am and I am my own boss and I work haaaaard!!!
Hey! Where were these California lawyers when I was working 80-120 hours per week as a resident, including 36-40 hour shifts. Or, how about my first job out of residency working one weekend per month (8-10 hours on both Sat. and Sun.) without extra pay or compensatory days off? (No more of that in this post-Porn Wars era!)
Oh, that’s right – I knew what I was getting into when I signed the contract that stipulated these things.
Thanks Smyhre.
If you don’t have loyalty to your employer then you don’t belong. People who work hard and expect nothing extra and are good at their job get promoted. Better job, higher pay and more responsibility. For example my countryman Jon Ive, wasn’t he just another member of Apple’s industrial design team until SJ spotted his talent?
Apple are in business to make great products and make their mark. And in turn they should make great profits.
You don’t reward lazy people who have no talent!!! Apple is NOT a charity
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So THIS is why Apple has amassed over $22 billion in the bank.
And also, trade unions. They tend to ruin businesses. They ruined British Leyland and the coal industry here in the UK. Greedy sons of biaches!! Now we buy our coal from abroad because it’s cheaper and all the mines have closed. And we have a shittier economy and dependancy on other countries and our fuel bills are increasing.
Soon I won’t be able to afford the electricity to power my Mac and there goes my business…
If we still had our own coal industry and the unions didn’t intervene our lecky would be cheaper and the economy would be far healthier.
Trade unions can go suck a lemon!!!
I’m a bit surprised that MDN would link anything from InformationWeek, the most Apple-flamebait site. They cover/make up the most mean spirited and anti-Apple stories they can find in any given day (especially in the past few weeks) verging on ridiculous. In my view, they are pretty much most things opposite MDN, and not in a good way.
I consciously avoid donating them my clicks or time.
Oh yeah another thing I’m not salary I have to physically clock in and out when I am working so I know exactly when I’m volunteering time. If you are just there to make money then go sell illegal drugs you will make more money. If you enjoy the job it won’t matter exactly what you paid as long as it covers the basic expenses of life (that does not include a Ferrari by the way
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Having been , sort of, in both places, may I say this.
Salaried means that you earn a basic salary in lieu of hourly wages. It also means that sometimes you work over, AND SOMETIMES you goof off or take a day off.
Salaried is not a right for the company to make you always work 40 plus hours a week. Most state laws say so. If you get to come in late after a dental appt, or oil change etc and yet get your full paycheck, that compensates for the 48 hours the next week.
Been on both sides. Too many times companies actually think its OK to abuse employees cause they are free to leave. The issue is not abused employees but breaking state labor laws.
So, we will see if its disgrunted employee or cheap employer.
en
“Most IT people are not payed at an hourly rate, most IT people know this when they accept employment. Typical whiner, takes the job knowing the job requirements, and then tries to change the rules. If hes a temp. he has no rights.”
Indeed. No one ever joins IT for the hours. I certainly didn’t.
That said, dude should have known the score when he signed the contract.
Oh my. I was a surgical resident and worked 100hrs a week for 6 years without extra pay. Oh My, my university professors worked 65+ hours/ week with no extra pay. Oh my. My sister is a phD is in a research lab and gets a flat salary and works 50 to 75 hours per week. Those poor IT guys.
Ok, IBM settled for $65MM, with 1/2 probably going to the lawyers. So, IBM paid an approximately $1000 to each employee in their case. Wow…if you had to work overtime for years, that would come nowhere near what they should have been paid by IBM.
If you made $75k/year, $1000 would only cover 18 hours of overtime. I’m sure the average worker worked more overtime that this in a year…
@Macbones
My thoughts exactly.
Apple will settle this. I cringe every time Stevie thanks his troops after a product announcement. Everyone should have the opportunity to have a life. Do some laundry. Eat right. Sleep. Otherwise, they’re shortening their lifespan.
This is probably BS by a disgruntled employee and others too incompetent to succeed–so they get together to try to make a quick buck. If they knew the terms of employment, got $75K+ salaries, and stayed around year after year, they should get nothing, nada, zip. In fact, they should be forced to pay Apple’s legal bills for defending this!
It’s obvious that the MobileMe group at Apple didn’t have this overtime problem.
Jimbo von Winskinheimer,
“The reason that the employees have a case is that the US gov’t has laws regarding this”
If so, they aren’t enforced very well. In my experience, this type of thing is commonplace in the U.S. My last job was mandatory 50 hours per week for hourly and salaried. Weekends were voluntary, but it wasn’t a good idea to constantly refuse it.
Hell, years ago I had a job where you had to work 21 days straight to get 1 day off. The pay was barely above minimum wage. and this shop had a union! Now THAT was
something to bitch about!
I have no sympathy for this putz.
I’m sure that this guy got bored and pissed off and quit without having another job lined up. Now that he has burnt through all his retirement funds, he is looking for a quick buck by suing. Why else wait for 2 years after the end of employment to sue???
That being said, IF this is true, this should be an extremely embarrassing black mark on Apple’s employment practices. However, in the end, I’m guessing that Apple will settle to get rid of the sensationalism around the suit, not because they are “guilty”
British Mac Head, before you get all amazed at $75K/yr, remember that this guy is in the Bay Area. $75K goes pretty fast up there.
What a bunch of cry babies. I have to work 40+ hours / work through lunch without overtime. With todays economy they should be happy they have a job.
@Christer
“this should be an extremely embarrassing black mark on Apple’s employment practices.”
BLACK mark? Why the hell does it always got to be a BLACK mark?
Why aint it ever a WHITE mark?
If I wasnt so banged up I would kick your cracker ass.
I smell a rat. Is this some class-action law firm that is just trolling for cases and plaintiffs?
Ah… Welcome to IT.
Spalding Smails: “I want a hamburger… no, a cheeseburger. I want a hot dog. I want a milkshake…”
Judge Smails: “You’ll get nothing, and like it.”
Anonymous©,
“I smell a rat.”
Yes you do. That is the special of the day at the Apple cafeteria. And that’s one of the more popular items. AND the bastards don’t provide A1 steak sauce. This guy has a legitimate complaint.
OH HOLY MOTHER OF GAWD !!!!!
The Old Spice ad has a naked guy! I’m gonna puke!
This is the work of Satan!
Damn the devil. Damn the devil to HELL !!!
All you guys talking about the 75k and up salaries dont have a clue how much it costs to live in the bay area. Married professionals cant even afford a starter home there — they have to rent. So its really not that great of a salary. Even state troopers make more starting out.
For those of you who:
1) Don’t know what you’re talking about
2) Haven’t been taken advantage of
You should sit back and learn before posting your BS.
California law changed ~4.5 years back to protect workers that were taken advantage of.
If you’re a white-collar manager making six-figgers, yes, you put in OT as your job requires.
When you’re a hard-working tech, and you don’t have the clout or pay of those managers, you should get paid for your work.
It’s very simple – the laws changed, and MANY companies – mine included – did not tell us to stop working OT, even though it was breaking the new law.
THAT is the problem.
These folks aren’t whiners.
They signed up for a gig with certain understandings.
The law changed, the company didn’t.
Apple were wrong, IMB were wrong, and so are a LOT of other companies.
They will have to settle as it’s pretty much cut and dried.
If you think it’s just “whiners” or “looking for a quick buck” you’re just wrong.
Think before you type™
Clearly, this opportunis, er, employee managed to get on Steve’s really, really badside?
How can anyone complain when you still have your money and your health? It isn’t like Steve turned up at the guy’s department and casually broke his legs for the sheer hell of it!
@ Andy, et.al.
Again.
It’s the law.
They broke (apparently) the law.
No arguing it “being fair” or “lazy” or whatever.
A very simple concept lost on MDN monkeys today.
@ Jimbo
I’m not sure I would have said “sexual harrasment” and “skirt the issue” in the same sentence, but for the most part… kudos.
Me In LA,
I really think you should disclose the fact that you are representing this guy. It’s the honest thing to do.
Calm down, Me. Just kidding.
@ Me in LA
It’s called taking advantage of a stupid system. A stupid law is still a stupid law. Laws like those exist so that people can exact random grievances against companies who give them salaries and other benefits.
The guy probably lived in a nice penthouse with a plasma TV and air conditioning, amongst other luxuries. IT workers aren’t exactly paid mere pennies, you know. He’s not being subjected to grievous bodily harm or forced smog inhalation at work, either, is he?
It boils down to this – don’t like the deal you have? Cope with it, or look for a place more suited to your tastes!
They are “at will” employees. If you don’t like it – quit. They were lucky to have jobs.
@SGB,
Thanks a lot for blowing my (Mr Ed) cover.
@ Andy,
It’s got nothing to do with his plasma, iPods, AC or lack thereof.
It’s not s stupid law.
It was created so companies can’t take advantage of these employees.
“Lucky to have jobs”?
You (and others) have to be kidding me?
Is it charity?
Does Steve make $1 a year really?
Hell no.
I am not a fan of lawsuits or unions, etc. but when companies record record profits and then try to cheat the laws and employees, it’s wrong.
Being paid well is nice.
I’m sure you earn your money – I do – but I’m not going to think it’s a handout.
All they had to do was to convert to hourly, and say any OT must be approved.
Simple.
As a former Apple employee let me clear some things up….
First of all, Apple does not pay well. Apple in many division expects the Apple logo on your business card to count as up to 20 percent of your compensation. Apple has not grown well, the emotionally charged culture rich employer that many people have imagined is gone. For example, Apple Retail hires managers from failing apparel chains who have never touched a computer and expects them to provide a decent customer experience. Kinda explains why the stores have become less and less relevant to Mac users over that last year. Apple has also used its size to bully employees. I was the victim of sexual harassment and retaliation for numerous months. I ended up getting let go for a reason that is illegal in my state. Apple had acknowledged the illegality of their practices but who is going to make it stop? I still love my Mac but Apple is slowing eroding into Walmart.
Me In LA,
I’m not quite sure how to interpret that.
@ SBG:
Mission Accomplished!
Me In LA,
Darn lawyers.
i’m glad all the experts on the subject are here to post their opinions.
@squid
Mostly just spurts.
GET A GRIP!!!!!! JUST BECAUSE THE SOCIALIST STATE OF CALIFORNIA WANTS TO FORCE THEIR POLITICS ON ALL THE PEOPLE THE TRUTH IS THAT YOU SHOULD ALWAYS MAKE YOURSELF WORTH MORE THAN YOUR PAID AND YOU’LL BE HIGH DEMAND. ECON 101… IF YOU PAY MORE THAN THE MARKET CONDITIONS FOR YOUR PAYROLL IT BECOMES INFLATIONARY ON THE PRODUCTS PRICE AND MAKES YOU LESS COMPETITIVE AND IF YOU SUBSIDIZE THE PRICE OF YOUR PRODUCT IT DEPRECIATES GREATER THAN IT WOULD WITHOUT A REBATE OR INCENTIVE. UNIONS HAD A PLACE WHEN THE GOVERNMENT WOULDN’T STEP UP TO TAKE CARE OF WORKERS SAFETY BUT TO USE IT AS A COLLECTIVE TO ALTER A BUSINESSES PROFITABILITY THE JOBS WILL GO BYE BYE. LOOK AT THE UNION AUTO INDUSTRY THAT COULD HAVE PUT THEIR BILLIONS IN R&D;, TOOLING,PRODUCTION AND DESIGN AND NOW HAVE TO PAY FOR RETIREMENT FUNDS THAT EMPLOYEES SHOULD HAVE PLANNED ON THEIR OWN. IT WILL TAKE A BANKRUPTCY TO BREAK THE CYCLE OF LOSSES AND START OVER.
Good Gawd Almighty, can anybody read that?
Ok, all i could understand was “GET A……START OVER.” Sheesh!
MacSheikh,
Same here. It gives me a headache.
What a load of shit. The long hours are a part of the IT industry as a whole. If you want a 9 to 5 job don’t go into IT or medicine, or law, or basic science research, or really any professional job. Period.
It was a bitch to work long hours, I worked many jobs 65 to 80 hours a week when I was younger. What did it get me, the work ethics to start my own business over 10 years ago, grow it into a business I can hire employees that have joined our company fully prepared that they know long hours are part of IT. This is the reason so many jobs get outsourced from this country. No work ethics to speak of. How many hours a day did he browse the web, how many systems did he buy from Apple at a discount, how much training did he get in those 12 years, and honestly if it was so bad he had *12* years to find a new job. That means he was there pre .com fall-out, he was there during the dark years of 1996-1997 when we are surprised Apple pulled out of. 12 years is a long time to now claim abusive practices by your ex-employer, and more than 2 1/2 years after CA changed the law, which now that he does not work at Apple any more he probably just learned about… nice. Worst case, Apple will only be held liable for the past 2 1/2 years since the law went into effect even for people that “claim” to have been abused for 12 years. What a loser, if its too expensive for you to live in CA, MOVE! There are a lot of tech areas in the US that have MUCH better cost of living. Where you live and where you work in this country is your own choice, its not forced on you by the government, or your employer… Whiner.
This sort of story and the related comments (here on MDN and other sites) exemplifies how a lot of people just accept what they are told, read or hear as truth incarnate.
It is farcical.
The web has empowered us with the capacity to respond almost immediately to stories, articles, news or … “items of interest”, however, this ability is often achieved without first giving any clear thought or understanding to the veracity of the report or an understanding of the subject matter, topic, issue, question or concern at hand.
Fundamentally, the nature and particulars of EACH and EVERY subject matter, topic, issue, question or concern are intrinsically idiosyncratic, anomalously pertinent and inherently disparate.
Therefore, IMHO pontificating on any given subject matter, topic, issue, question or concern, without establishing and concluding all the relevant aspects and particulars – is conjecture – or in plain terms – it’s Bullshit!!!
In short – Don’t gob off about about stuff you know zip about. Which is why I don’t comment on tech issues, even though I am a senior tech op … just not in the immediate world of computers.
—
The above article, citing that a division of Apple IT smacks of a Dickensian “sweatshop” (my interpretation of the “indentured servitude” hyperbole) may be true or it maybe FUD, but without knowing the actualities, I would not offer an opinion fait accompli.
–
Paul McDougall reported that “David Walsh, who worked as a network engineer at Apple from 1995 until last year, was routinely forced to work more than 40 hours per week, missed meals, and often had to spend evenings and entire weekends on call without receiving an extra dollar of pay, according to the suit,”
–
… was “routinely” as opposed to .. was “expected to”.
… “forced” as opposed to … “asked”
… missed “how many” meals?
… “often” as opposed to … “sometimes”.
If Apple are guilty, then … Book ’em Danno, thro’ the book at ’em.
If they are guiltless, make it known so and sing it from the heavens.
Rant over … resuming normal apathetic programming … Apathetic, as I’ve been at work since 0400 hrs.
Hmm … Pontificate –
blabbing on and on and on without and regardless of the facts.
Not only in regard to this immediate story but on so many others over the recent years – We do.
Wow. So many Americans so eager to go down on their monopolistic corporations and fellate them. Freaking idiots. Wake up and realise you’re a tool of corporate power. They ain’t sharing those record profits with you, and they’re NOT putting them into to the public system through taxes. In fact, when they screw up and go bankrupt, the government bails them out and YOU pay for it.
It’s a socialist system all right; socialism for the wealthy, and free market tough love for the poor. Good luck with defending your overlords as they rip you off over and over again.
Impressed by the number and scale of idiots on thi …….,
I don’t know how long and insulting your title is since you ran out of room.
Next time just use ‘Ralph Nader’. It’s quicker.
SKY LARK,
“Rant over … resuming normal apathetic programming … Apathetic, as I’ve been at work since 0400 hrs.”
So all of that was on your employer’s dime?
You know, I reckon CEOs need laws and unions to PROTECT them, too! Why should all those sourpuss blue collars get all the union kickbacks and Marxist zealots to defend them?
Maybe it’s time Steve sequestered himself into his own ‘Galt’s Gulch’!
Why is it that anyone with half a brain cell continues to exclusively blame Apple for partnering with ATT? To start any discussion along these lines on that premise always makes Apple look soley responsible. But make no mistake, cellular providers are control freaks, and they have no intention of letting the likes of SJ have any control whatsoever. I have little doubt that finding a service provider that would distribute the iPhone put SJ in a place he rarely finds himself – Not in total control.
For those of you who are here commenting “I work 80 hours a week without O.T. and lunch breaks, yadda yadda, and I’m just fine with that”. Well, good for you suckers. If you feel your skills and services are worth a lower hourly rate, then you DESERVE to be a slave. The rest of us don’t OWE our companies an ounce of anything beyond our terms of employment. If I end up working on a vacation, I insist on comp time. Period. Because I VALUE my skills and don’t just hand them over like a wimp to my corporate masters. And, being salaried, the more I work on MY time, the lower my hourly rate falls, meaning my services are DE-VALUED the MORE I work. Screw that.
Not only that, but whether you are salaried or not, there are still labor laws, such as limited breaks every few hours (depending on the state), comp time requirements, O.T. requirements, etc. If you’re too dense to understand the labor requirements of your state, or too scared to speak up, or you just enjoy being raped by your company, then that’s your problem. Enjoy your heart attack in five years.
“…missed meals, and often had to spend evenings and entire weekends on call without receiving an extra dollar of pay”
Oh noes. Not entire weekends on call! ENTIRE weekends!!
I was on a pager rotation for two years in an IT position. Evenings and entire weekends. And the occasional holiday. With no extra pay. It was considered to be factored into the salary of the position. This is just something that comes with the territory.
Does it suck to be sometimes woken up by a call at 3:00 am from someone in Asia? Sure. Does it suck to not be able to go party with friends because someone might call? Sure (although there are ways around this, especially with the increasing pervasiveness of Internet access in almost any location). Does that mean you’re being mistreated? I don’t think so.
I don’t know California employment law, but unless Apple seriously misrepresented the expectations of his position, I think this guy needs to get over it and move on.
Hem Rage:
Don’t be too hard on them – they are brainwashed, simply put. They’ve been taught from an early age to believe that it’s good when corporations and the wealthy have a lot of money, and it’s “oppression” when the poor who work for them make demands that they share it. In their minds, they think their world will be better when they have less.
It’s an amazing trick that has been pulled on the people of the USA. It’s almost like magic. Up becomes down and down becomes up. Give more money and tax breaks to rich people, and then all the poor people are richer! Less means more!
Look, if you people would just think about it for a second, maybe you’d realise there’s no real reason you’re defending corporations for taking advantage of the public. It’s a knee jerk automatic reaction that’s been programmed into you.
If you don’t believe me, look it up:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays
This is one of the founders of the modern PR movement, an American. And that’s almost 100 years ago. They’ve had a lot of time to improve.
Seriously, what has the corporate oligarchy ever done for you? Has it made you richer? No, it’s made you poorer. Has it improved your quality of work? No, it’s made it much worse. So, why are you so bent on irrationally vindicating and rationalising a company that you don’t own, and don’t know any of the people making all the money off it? Are the executives your friends? Would they even dare eat dinner at your place? No, they despise you. You’re their grunts, their servants. You have to be taught to keep in line, to behave yourselves, and when a servant talks back to his master, they deserved to be punished.
In 1989 Exxon spills oil in an Alaskan coastline, devastating your environment. The courts hand down a $6 billion dollar punishment. In 2008, they still hadn’t paid it. In fact, in 2008, they got a court to reduce it to $500 million. This from a company that made $40 billion in profit last year. $40 billion in profits and they still refuse to pay up $6 billion in damages. And there are probably a good number of you who will be quite eager to defend Exxon, say it was an accident, $6 billion is too much, etc..
Ask yourself why you defend them. Have you really thought about it?
Impressed by the number and … ,
You are so right. I’ve read about this before. We really don’t even realize it. I learned a long time ago not to trust my employers, because when push comes to shove, they will cut your throat to cover their own asses.
If you object to the status quo in this country, you are a socialist. They like to use that word as a condemnation, since many people believe it’s the same as communism.
We really are gullible.
It boils down to this – don’t like the deal you have? Cope with it, or look for a place more suited to your tastes!
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That’s certainly true, but what is the point of having labor laws like these if they’re not enforced? Regardless, it’s baffling to me why a large company with a lot to lose like Apple would take a stupid risk like this. With as many workers as they do, and being as big of a target as they are, they’re not going to get away with violating labor laws en mass. But I guess we’ll have to wait to see if they did really do what they’re accused of.
Nick from Avvo
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