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I use Linux at work, and it's okay, but nowhere near as easy or friendly as OS X. The fact that it is completely open source is nice, but in the end it's the experience that counts.

Linux is used a lot in the visual effects industry, because of its superior memory management and 64 bit support (Only now with Leopard can Apple compete in this space).

Good 'ol Linus! He must wish Linux was a bit more like OS X...rather than the sticking plaster covered Meccano kit(s) it still is...

As always the stats speak for themselves

Feb 05, 08 - 10:15 am Comment from: Mr. Reeee

While I appreciate the entire Linux micro-universe, If you want to build something from scratch and tinker your life away (remember Heathkit and the Jr. High A/V club?)... good for you. Have fun with Linux.

Me? I need to get things done. As quickly and as efficiently as possible. I'll stick with Mac OS X, thank you.

Of course Mac OS X isn't perfect. From what I've read about it, the promise of ZFS in OS X in a few years is pretty tantalizing.

Apple's apparent plans for OS X everywhere are pretty tantalizing, too!

Feb 05, 08 - 10:15 am Comment from: John

Well, my son (13) has installed Linux on his Lenovo PC that we were required to buy for him for school, and believe me, the experience of using Linux is FAR superior to his having to use Windows for about 6 months before he installed Linux. Just being free of the virus threat is enough reason to switch.... We're lobbying the school hard, meantime, to go with Macbooks next time they do a laptop refresh. Fingers crossed it'll work and he can dump both for OSX!

Feb 05, 08 - 10:16 am Comment from: MadMac

Did someone steal his blankey????

To say an operating system should be invisible is nonsense. You still have to interact with it on some level depending on what you're doing. It shouldn't be totally invisible - it just shouldn't be needlessly visible.

Linux is a great ideal but it seems that the ideal matters above all else. At least with Apple, Macs and OS X we have a great overall system to justify our passion.

Don't know about file systems to talk.. maybe Torvalds is right.

his email address:

Yes Linus, show us how well you understand the consumer desktop compared to Steve Jobs who brought the GUI and personal computers to the masses.

If you think you can make market share headway on desktop Linux based just upon a improved file system, go for it. Don't let us stop you.

Just remember we all are still friends against Microsoft, after all Steve Jobs used Linux at Pixar's renderfarm.

Just remember your place is in the server room though, not on the desktop. Again your welcome to try though.

God knows we Mac users don't like being tied to Apple's limited hardware line. OS X/PC would be a better choice than Linux on the desktop.

Feb 05, 08 - 10:27 am Comment from: wannabe

MDN, you do a serious disservice in lampooning Linux on the desktop. Remember that WebKit -- the foundation of Safari which is, in many ways, the most important component of the iPhone -- is derived from part of a Linux desktop environment project.

"'(But) OS X in some ways is actually worse than Windows to program for."

There is a huge difference in saying that "OSX is in some ways worse than Vista" and "In some ways worse to program for that Vista.". Everyday people on the street don't give a crap about programming, only about usability.

That being said i still hope OSX goes ZFS in the future.

Feb 05, 08 - 10:29 am Comment from: Sixvodkas

@GUI Man
"God knows we Mac users don't like being tied to Apple's limited hardware line. OS X/PC would be a better choice than Linux on the desktop."

Speak for yourself. I can't find a single Mac user in our department that agrees with that assertion.

Feb 05, 08 - 10:32 am Comment from: HolyMackerel

"… treat a new version or update of an operating system as a cause for major celebration and marketing…"

This is to help the programmer and user have confidence that their program will work. My apps work under Linux, but it is hard to give confidence that they will work since I can't control the version of Linux or plugins.

Many programs require Leopard for the Core… programs, but there were equal jumps with MacOS X and MacOS 7. The amount Apple charge for the OS and the lack of registration would lead me to believe it is not the cash-cow it is for MicroWho?

Linux is good, well, getting better, but OS X still stands head and shoulders above every other OS available today.

My $0.02

Feb 05, 08 - 10:37 am Comment from: Grifterus

I believe he's not with Transmeta anymore, though.

While I consider Linus as a brilliant guy (I met him personally once), he's not the most diplomatic guy.

When I met him, he was an OK guy, not flashy or anything. But he's very blunt about his comments, and he always leaves a lot of open spaces to be bombarded when he writes comments like this.

Sure, ZFS or the Linux file system is better. Sure, the Mac filesystem is already old and needs an overhaul. But it would be enough to say: "The issue is, the file system is already old, and Linux choice of file system is much better", instead of calling it "crap".

He has a point... but an awful way to express it. My suggestion: Don't crucify Torvalds. Understand his way of expression and take what's valuable.

About better or worse:

I think Mac OS X is MUCH better on the desktop. I still like Linux on the server. I don't like Microsoft for any of them.

Feb 05, 08 - 10:38 am Comment from: Buster

I use Ubuntu at work for DNA analyses and the like. It is a nice speedy operating system (I use it on an eight core Mac Pro). However, I would NOT use it for everyday work as OSX is much friendlier and, lets face it, more fun to use.

Thanks for the comment Linus, now go back out to play.

Feb 05, 08 - 10:39 am Comment from: ken1w

Linux is OK on the "desktop," but it is not nearly as refined and "comfortable" as Mac OS X. I'd probably use Fedora or Ubuntu instead of Windows if Mac OS X disappeared off the face of the earth tomorrow, but that's not saying much. If Linux has a better "file system," I say that's great for Linux. But I guess I don't use Macs because of the file system.

Feb 05, 08 - 10:40 am Comment from: Shinobi

I have lost quite a bit of respect for Linus......

As a computer science student, I fail to see how the Apples' HFS+ file system is crap. Based on what Linus?

I think it suits multimedia files much better than the Linux file system.

I have used linux, windows, and Mac OS X.... From what I can tell HFS+ works better than the other two.....

In fact, Linux and Windows are not even comparable to overall experience of OS X. That's why the majority of our Professors and grad students in our department have switched to Macs!

I think MDN needs to distinguish between raw Linux and Linux with a GUI glued on top. Big, big difference. Linux at the command line rocks!

If my GUI looked like Linux's without some third party open source add-on, I would want my operating system to be invisible, too.

"Linux at the command line rocks!"

Holy shit you must have fun trainspotting in your spare time...

i'm kinda wondering the same as shinobi is - i know zfs is supposed to be somehow better, but what is actually WRONG with hfs, other than it's been around for a long time?

Ok, I agree that HFS+ has had a nice long run and I'm glad Apple is working on the most advanced replacement for it. The last major hurdle for ZFS will be to make it bootable and stable. Then we can all relax with confidence after Apple rolls it out.

Feb 05, 08 - 10:56 am Comment from: Hm...

Well, I've run dual boot OS X/PPCLinux and a stand-alone Linux server for years on the same cpu (a machine that was pulled from the lab because it couldn't handle Windows' inflated hardware requirements). Yes - the Linux filesystem was better than HFS. I'm not so sure about HFS+; Apple may have passed Linux base system. NFS still seems better designed to me.

In one sense he's right, but substitute "file" for "operating":
  A file system should be completely invisible.
to the average user. And here the Mac far outweighs Linux - just look at partitioning requirements for an install in a lot of distros.

Before flaming Linus, remember his penchant for overstated bluntness and that English is not his first language.

Feb 05, 08 - 10:58 am Comment from: Ampar

Linus Torvalds left Transmeta in June, 2003. He moved to Beaverton, OR in 2004 and now works for the Linux Foundation, a merger of the Open Source Development Labs and the Free Standards Group.

Contact information:
http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/Contact

He's right about the file system, though it's likely not as dramatic as he says. HFS+ has been around a long time. File systems, like operating systems, need to be updated from time to time. Nothing is immortal. HFS+ needs to be replaced--and the replacement is in the works.

Otherwise, he's out to lunch. Businesses have always treated a new version or update of their products as the occasion for celebration and marketing, whether their product is a car or a computer. How else is the consumer going to find out about it? How else is the business going to stay in business?

I have been defeated and will no longer bore you with my annoying satire.

Your potential. Our passion.™

Speak for yourself. I can't find a single Mac user in our department that agrees with that assertion.

Wow, a whole Mac department that has never experienced the joy of 3D gaming on a affordable sub $1000 system.

Amazing.

Feb 05, 08 - 11:09 am Comment from: Buster

'Linux at the command line rocks!'


Oh yeah...more of the old ...Cee colon enter....crap. That gets me all warm and fuzzy......not!

Feb 05, 08 - 11:10 am Comment from: Buster

Nice try ZT but since you were not logged in....we will wait for the real one!

I love OS X but I actually agree with Linus. I've had a ton of file system corruptions on my macs because the system lost power at the wrong time or because it froze completely and needed a hard reset. That never happens to my Windows machines when the power gets cut unexpectedly or due to a system freeze. The HFS+ filesystem OS X uses is just way too fragile. And why the fsck to the permissions need to be "repaired" by the user all the time? Should that just happen automatically?

Again, I rest my case.

While Steve is fooling around with tunes players and phones, the OS we all depend upon is neglected to the point that it is no where near current technology.

How many years before we are state of the art? Will we ever be?

We computer users continue to suffer with Steve's obsession with toys and gadgets.

Feb 05, 08 - 11:13 am Comment from: shen

"'An operating system should be completely invisible,'"

look i don't know anything about programing for the X file system, and i am sure he does, and maybe he has a point....

but the reason i changed from linux to OS X was i got sick of having to instruct the OS in every little damn detail in linux. i left linux exactly because the OS was some damn in the way all the time.

....so i completely agree with him on that point.

I have OS X 10.4, XP Pro, and Linux (Ubuntu) at home. Of the three, OS X is the most fun to use and my preferred OS. XP runs quite a bit faster, because it's on a faster CPU. Linux ... is like a hobby. It works okay out of the box, but by the time I get it up and running with a nice cool factor (adding desktop effects and what not), it breaks, and turns totally yuck. After a few months I get the courage to try again, but I can't say the file system is a significant factor in any of this.

@told you so... Uhm...what? Exactly what OS is state of the art if not os x? Say whatever you want, but if you're going to make accusations like that, have some facts to back it up. Like an example of a better operating system. Now true, apple did delay leopard for the iphone. But so what? Leopard still came out, and was still great. Seriously, remove head from sphincter, then opine. Ps, sorry the formatting on this sux, i'm writing this on my phone, and it's not an iphone

Feb 05, 08 - 11:36 am Comment from: Ampar

"We computer users continue to suffer . . ."

What's this "we" shit? You're suffering alone.

" . . . the OS we all depend upon is neglected to the point that it is no where near current technology."

Way to go! You have just won the Biggest Piece of Steaming Dung Disguised as a Comment Award! The prize is the ridicule it deserves. Thanks for playing and we look forward to your next inspiring craplet!

Feb 05, 08 - 11:37 am Comment from: G4Dualie

"Again, I rest my case."

Rolls eyes...

Feb 05, 08 - 11:41 am Comment from: Demon

I've been using ZFS on Solaris 10 for a few years and it's is by far the best Computer File System going today. I'm looking forward to MacOS X be able to fully support and use ZFS volumes and even use them as the Boot Volume it will be a great thing.

Feb 05, 08 - 11:41 am Comment from: Drew_Ill

Linux on the desktop is great if you enjoy trolling around on forums trying to find a driver that works with your hardware. Ugh.

it seems like you just used the argument that windoze sufferers so annoyingly use against us all the time: "windows has 9999.9% market share!" as a way to show superiority.

mw: "come" on guys.

Yeah man! What has Linus Torvalds ever done with operating systems? The geniuses at MDN know better!! Man they are expert programmers that have written millions of OS's. MDN is the best source for intelligent commentary on operating systems. Linus Torvalds has nothing on MDN. Nothing man!

Just my $0.02

I've played with Linux on and off since the early Caldera releases. But I agree with MDN's take: Linux on the Desktop is going nowhere, and probably never will. It's total anarchy out there. Gnome? KDE? Every version does things differently, perhaps because there's no underlying "vision" guiding it. So too do we have a myriad of filesystems on Linux, some better, some worse than HFS+.

I, too, am looking forward to the next-gen Mac filesystem, though today's has given me no problem, and I look forward to ZFS helping Mac move into the Enterprise space.

Linux advocates are like Windows advocates: they think their's is the solution to every problem. Torvalds is a partisan, and I treat his words as I would any advocate for a cause. If I want a "real" UNIX, I'll stick with Solaris. If I want a viable, even attractive, desktop OS that lets me get my job done, I'll stick with OS X. But that's just me.

Aside: I tried installing a recent Ubuntu on my Shuttle XPC. It bombed.

When Apple does adopt ZFS, will any of us non-techie types even notice? Will ZFS make folders a thing of the past? Will icons and files cease to have their current appearance? I really don't know what is so great about ZFS that is going to make my user experience any better.

From an end user's POV, I don't see much difference between AFP, FAT32, NTFS or HFS. They all appear to have the same Files and Folders that I'm used to. I'm sure to the chip-heads they have huge differences, but when I finally get ZFS on my Mac, I'm pretty sure it'll be a big fat Whoop-De-Do.

So I guess since Windows has better market share then OS X, Windows is better? Be careful when talking down to Linux based on desktop market share, you'll end up praising Vista!

If the only thing he found wrong with OS X is a bad file system and in his mind annoying marketing, I would say OS X must be doing something right.

Not sure what all this grousing about problematic file system is all about. I've kept proper backups and have never lost anything.

It's the new POS ultra high capacity Hard Disks that are at the root of a lot of recent problems. Putting 100MB on the head of a pin is bound to be problematic.

I prefer OSX multiples over XP/Vista. However, I wish OSX had Windows' Explorer. Finder works for the most part, but Apple in trying to differentiate itself from Windows sometimes does it in a negative way. Finder is one of them.

In my perfect-world scenario, there are five or six major vendors for desktop operating systems, of which Apple is one. I'd like to see some serious competition, not just Apple leading the way and Microsoft playing catch-up.

-jcr

" Will ZFS make folders a thing of the past? "

No, you'd still have basically the same view of your files, but you wouldn't have to worry about individual disks anymore. ZFS would get them all into a pool that looks like a single volume of any size you want to buy.

-jcr

Feb 05, 08 - 12:10 pm Comment from: Macdoc

Go back under your Rock...