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I saw a demo of flip3D several months ago and thought exactly the same thing. Seeing all the windows at once is exactly why expose is such a good tool. As for flip3D, guess it was made by tools instead

I wouldn't call it a botch job.

Having used Visat Beta 2 myself (and being relaly impressed), I would say that Flip 3D is pretty cool, and (for me) more intuitive than Expose

Here's a video of it in action

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6219108055179715875

"Flip3D ugly"

Wouldn't that make it "flugly"?

Won't be noticed by your average PC user - "You have to remember, these people had never seen fire before".

When they first announced this I couldn't figure out how it could be of any real use. Since you can only view one window at a time it's effectively like clicking through all the windows on your taskbar one at a time anyway, maybe marginally quicker. That said, I can imagine instances where it's slower.

PS. Sorry for all they typos...

Billy, you're correct with your demos: 3-4 windows open. However, I sometimes have dozens if not more windows open (you should see what it looks like when I invoke expose!). In that instance it would be REALLY slow to scroll through each window one at a time. That's the situation where expose would kick the snot out of flip3D.

Thanks for the video Billy but I can't see everything at once, I am using an external monitor for my 3 year old powerbook in dual screen mode and expose spreads all the windows evenly to both screens.
Vista is lacking.

Billy:

Gee, nice video. Love that shaky quality. It's oh so Cinema Verité.

Wow 2 windows. THAT'S an impressive show. I'd like to see how it does with 15 or 20 windows and 4 or 5 applications... what it's like working in the real world.

Exposé not only shows you ALL open windows, but identifies them when you move the cursor over them. Flip3D doesn't come close. It doesn't even identify what the window is.

Besides, OS X has a similar feature TODAY... You can toggle through open windows in the active application (usually) by using Command-`. So, essentially, Mac OS X has BOTH Exposé and a simpler iteration of Flip 3D.

MDN magic Word: LEAVE it to Microsoft to kludge-ify something simple and elegant.

Billy,
I don't know what's uglier, that video or windows vista. Man, having to scroll through all those windows is anything but intuitive. If you like using the keyboard instead of the mouse expose can do that with the arrows and return.

Just my two cents

I concede that Flip 3D is going to get pretty messy when you use many windows.. but it's still quite usable.

The point being that it's not as shite as some people here would like to make out.

Clearly, Apple have the better solution, overall, but Microsoft's is certainly the kind of thing you would expect Apple to come out with.

I'm just trying to be balanced in my assesment.

And then there's leopard . . . .

I love it!


As in, "That's the tech that's been here a year so what are they going to do when the new cat comes to town"

If your going to plagiarize, to it right, and do it fast!

Apple NEVER copsies Microsoft huh?

Well, I've got three words for you all.

FAST USER SWITCHING

Honestly, it's no surprise that Microsoft copies anyone who does something successful. They've been doing it for years.

However, Apple's not without fault: Apple's Dashboard was obviously, er... "inspired" by Konfabulator (now Yahoo Widget Engine). However, it was a realtively weak rip-off initially, in my opinion.

Hmmm... I wonder why Smith failed to mention that...

:~)

For us multiple monitor users - just how would 3-D Flip work in that instance. Expose works great, I can't imaging windows flipping on different monitors at the same time. Confusing?

Maybe MicroThought doesn't know what good taste in a UI is.

Fast User Switching:

Apple took what existed before (in UNIX first, not Windows, BTW) and made it better:
http://www.apple.com/macosx/theater/fastuserswitching.html

What do you call Steve Ballmer and Rob Glaser when they finally dump Windows and move to Mac OS X?

Fat Users Switching.

Quote DW, "....Apple's Dashboard was obviously, er... "inspired" by Konfabulator....."

Rubbish. The idea was around with Desk Accesories in Apple's System 6, which is some 15 years ago.

Tacitus

Drunk Cheney

I actullay use flip 3D on a dual monitor setup.

What happens is that the wondows all move to the flip-3d layout on the main monitor.

Monitor 1 has the flip-3d windows in centre
Monitor 2 displays the desktop

MDN Word "Eye", as in, it's all eye candy anyway

My problem with Exposé is that it only works with currently visible windows and not the hidden ones.

Is anyone else out there a hider like me? I can't stand seeing windows that are not in use or that I'm not about to drag & drop from. I am constantly using command-H to hide an application which I'm done with for the moment, or also the "Hide Others" command which I have globally remapped to the F1 key because I use it all the time. I sometimes switch to another application by holding down the option key before clicking on the application's dock icon; this also has the effect of hiding your former application while switching to another.

Thus, the dock, command-tab, and command-` (cycle through an application's windows/documents) are my most useful forms of navigation. Apple should include an option to make Exposé activate all hidden windows, or am I missing something and it's possible now? I've tried it with a hot corner (set literally as "All Windows" even though that's not entirely true) and F9 through F11.

MW: see. I don't "see" all my windows through Exposé.

What do you call Steve Ballmer and Rob Glaser when you wire them up to a 10,000 volt power cable…

Fat Users Twitching.

"more intuitive than Expose"

How can something be more intuitive than a feature that just presents everything to you to choose from? This sounds like MS apologists at work to me.

It's akin to saying "well all those viruses on Windows are an advantage because it makes people learn to install and uninstall their software more"

Billy,
The point has been made by EVERY post, but yours - Flip3D IS as SHITE as it appears. And it is NOT the kind of thing Apple would come out with - they came out with Expose.

DW,

Using good ideas that others create is important in this industry. Apple does it all the time. For example, mighty mouse right clicks, apple trackpads are scrollable, Mac OSX has a dock (which resembles the start menu), just to name a few. But Apple uses ideas sparingly, tastefully and always improves on them.

Microsofts problem is that nearly their entire OS is copied, and they do it in a poor fashion.

"FAST USER SWITCHING"

That same little feature is far overused for

citing an example. Quit regugitating the same

crap. Fast User Switching vs. 1001 other things

that MS copied. Get over it.

Bad spelling on previous post. BTW I totally

agree w/ face. Ya' do what ya' gotta do, just do

it with class. Expose' appears to be much faster

and more useful to me. Seeing all of the windows

at once is the whole point.

A Hider: try Desktop Manager. One thing I love about Linux (about the only thing!) is the virtual desktops, and desktop manager does that on the Mac. I put email on a page, safari on one, iTunes on one, Word on one, Maya on one, and have an extra couple for whatever else I'm working on.

No more need to hide, and each desktop is nice and clean.

Why this isn't in the OS already, I have no idea. It's a great tool!

Hi A Hider,

Try Witch http://www.petermaurer.de/nasi.php?section=witch

It will let you go to any window you want, whether it's hidden, minimized, whatever. It's Command-Tab alternative, but way better.

Apple NEVER copsies Microsoft huh? FAST USER SWITCHING

Actually Apple had this first with a little known utility they put out as a test back in the early days of the Mac interface. The problem was RAM was limited and expensive at those times to hold two user accounts in memory at the same time.

In fact Apple Mac II's had the ability to place 6-7 other "Macs" inside the first using daughtercards. Each Mac was represented on the first on with it's own window, and switching between any of them, and each user account on them, was as easily as clicking a window.

Of course this was long before Windows even appeared, so there is no way Microsoft can claim they had Fast User Swtiching first.

Apple had Desk Accessories (aka widgets, gadgets) first as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desk_Accessory

Microsoft copied fast user switching from main frames. Apple had something similar a long time ago.

Good to see it on vid.

Windows version is nothing more than a more complicated version of alt-tab. they're trying to make it funky but its just adding complexity. I would end up just turning it off in favour of alt-tab.

On the other hand expose is lateral and innovative.

Typical microsplat.

Can't wait to see how they patch the new security vulnerabilities it will undoubtedly bring.

And I'm just trying to be balanced in my assessment: it's exactly as shite as some people here would like to make out, in fact, worse.

"...Microsoft's is certainly the kind of thing you would expect Apple to come out with." is an utterly laughable statement.

1. The 3D tilt adds nothing for usability but distorts the picture needlessly. Apple's eye candy doesn't interfere with the usability. Genie effect distorts between the user recognizing the window and minimizing it. Microsoft hamfistedly pulls you into this arbitrarily slanted pseudo 3D effect while the user is searching for windows and you gain nothing.

2. Exposé lets you see the entire contents of the window as well as their relative sizes. Flip3D just shows you the top left or sometimes just the left of the back windows Since most websites are "hockey stick" designs, only the non-changing portion of a website will be visible; the unique parts will always be totally obscured! DONKEYS! Try opening up 10 CNN or MDN articles and see if Flip 3D doesn't show 9 identical windows behind the frontmost one! They show top and left: EXACTLY the part that never changes and is the least uniquely identifiable part of a website.

Oh, here, I'll hand you beleaguered Microsoft apologists an excuse for you: "But, if you are using multiple websites, you will just use tabs anyway." BALLS. Even if you are in a Photoshop document you might have the majority of your changes or identifying differences be near the center of the window: In Exposé you see all the windows side by side with no arbitrarily applied 3D tilt. USABLE.

Microsoft couldn't have done a worse job if they tried.

My mistake, one could put only 5 more "Mac" NuBus daughtercards in the Mac II via the 6 NuBus slots, one had to be a graphics card.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_II

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NuBus

Macromancer

For the record, I am not an MS apologist.

My situation is that I have been a Windows user for 14 years, and this year have come very close to switching to Apple. Last December I fell in love with OS X.

But Vista is making me think otherwise (coupled with the fact that I have invested plenty of money in my self-build PC)

Hence my interest in this website.

My posts on this site are that of a PC owner who is sitting on the fence regarding my next PC. (Probably in 6-12 months)

At the moment, Vista seems to be nice enough for me not to have to buy a new PC (i.e. Mac), and to just upgrade my PC and OS.

However, I am very interested to see if Leopard does something to change my mind.

Ultimately, I am open minded...but (like many potential switchers), switching to a Mac would cost me conversion-time / old-pc-money, so I am trying to balance the cost / benefit.

At the moment, Expose vs Flip 3D isn't enough to make me switch.

A Hider, do a web search for "mac spirited away"... it'll take you to an application that you'll probably really love.

Billy Ash

Steve Jobs is back at the hlem of Apple and he knows how to drive creatives to come up with totally new products and interfaces.

Vista for most will be "just good enough" and nowhere as near as cutting edge as Apple OS will evolve into.

In fact if it wasn't for Mac OS X making XP look so bad, most Windows users would still be using years from now with very little change.

I doubt there is much room left for innovation in the present interface with computers.

Billy, if you are getting a new PC in 6-12 months anyway, you aren't losing any money from your investment. Just get a mac and if you need to, run windows on it. Let's face it, VISTA won't be out in 6-12 months, so you will be able to use your current copy of XP on your new mac without breaking any copyright laws, or spending extra money on a new OS.

when vista does come out, just bootleg it like the rest of us.

Billy Ash,
If your interest in this website is because you are seriously thinking about trying a Mac, I would suggest reading all the articles but skipping over the MDN Take and the other comments.

There are very few well thought out comments made in these threads, and they are not worth wading through the ignorant, whiny, arrogan, ad hominem-laced, fanboy posts that dominate the discussions.

@ Billy Ash:(coupled with the fact that I have invested plenty of money in my self-build PC)

Aye, there's the rub...

SJ, I would GLADLY pay $500 for a shrinkwrapped OSX/iLife bundle. Make me use a dongle for security. Any way you want it. I DON'T CARE! I LIKE TO TINKER! IT'S NOT A CRIME!! ARE YOU LISTENING SJ?!?!

Please?

sorry. I get a little worked up.

And what's with this "angled" look of MS Flip3D? A gimmick to live up to the 3D part of the name?

Please - we have flat windows. Display them flat. Like Expose does.

Sheesh!

do any of you have the tendency to place your windows in the upper left part of the screen? I do. It's aesthetically pleasing, plus that way they are easy to expand.

Similar to project looking glass by SUN...

http://www.sun.com/software/looking_glass/details.xml

check out the video also
http://www.sun.com/software/looking_glass/demo.xml

Finally! Someone points out the obvious! Flip3D is USELESS because you can't find the window you're looking for if you have more than 3-4 windows open.

Whoever thought of this implementation was obvious not interested in actual productivity but to show off a useless tech demo.

And by the way, the same goes for Sun's Looking Glass project. Similarly flash, but useless in the real world because it really is poorly implemented.

Hey Billy,

Wanna see what Expose is like with over 20 windows open (and 3 movies playing)?

http://idisk.mac.com/wingsy-Public/Expose.mov

It's 2 megs and it isn't streamed... so give it a min to d/l.

PC Apologist- face well and truly rubbed in the dirt. An 'oft repeated point about fast user switching that turns out to be yet another Apple innovation... ho ho ho.

Billy Ash - someone a wee bit sad if he can be 'convinced' by what he sees with VISTA so far... Something very odd there, for sure, because VISTA so far is massive wreck with more dropped features than there are programmers looking for jobs in Redmond.

Microsoft Windows will one day be seen to have been a passing phenomena. The whole world will collectively say: "do you remember MS Windows? All the punishment we took? how awful it was?

Apple Mac is the long-term solution.

Wingsy

Fuck yeah!

That's impressive. I've never seen it used like that. I have to admit that it makes Flip 3D look like a child's toy in comparison.

Particularly as you had some real Honest-to-God applications open.

Flip 3D might be prettier (to my eyes) but Expose seems like it would actually improve my productivity.

What is the spec on your system?

I'm considering that when I do eventually buy, a 20" IMac with 2GB memory would probably be a baseline target.

Can anyone supply a screenshot with expose on a dual monitor system?

". . .ignorant, whiny, arrogan, ad hominem-laced, fanboy posts that dominate the discussions."

Now you're just trying to spoil the fun. "Ad-hominem laced" - Is that closer to Burato or Point de Gauze?

Macaday

Resorting to insults isn't going to make your arguments any stronger.

The fact is that there are sensible and intelligent people like (I believe) me, who are actually tempted by Windows Vista.


Microsoft must be doing something right.

If that is true, then you have to ask yourself, how is this Utopian picture that you paint going to come true?

How naive are you Leopard People?

Vista will ship with a total Expose clone, only better because Windows can alt-tab too.

They show off "something else" (Flip 3D SUCKS and they KNOW IT) for now so Apple can't sue them, but Gates has the REAL Expose waiting for when Vista ships. Then it's too late, Apple can sue, MS can pay a penalty that they laugh at, but too late, Windows users win--again. We get the best of MS and Apple innovation all rolled into one.

Go ahead, poke fun at the 800 pound gorilla that will be what, 30 days later than Leopard? Big whoopie. Then the gorilla will lay the smack down!!

Microsoft PWNS YOU! I pity you Leopard People once Vista hits.

For Billy Ash -

Thanks for your comments. Nice to see someone NOT flaming around all the time, but trying to bring in some objectivity - now and again.

That said, are you using a Mac now or Windows? You mentioned you are "tempted" by Vista.

All I can say to that is this:

Of very article I have read to date on Vista or Vista vs OS X Tiger, I have not read a single article saying Vista, overall, is as good as Tiger. The GUI, Widgets, Spotlight, or fast user switching, it's all a fairly obvious attempt to copy what Apple has had out on the streets in Tiger, narrowing in on two years now.

So again, it does a good job exceeding XP (shouldn't be hard to do), but still falls short of what is on the market today in Tiger. Of course, Leopard will arrive around the time of Vista and then how much further will Vista be behind?...

Lastly, Vista has already initially had virus issues, and uh, why on earth go to that realm over a secure Mac OS X position - that is, if you are on a Mac at present.

If you can answer these questions point by point, directly, I think people will now you are not trolling but really putting out what you feel is an objective argument.

Regards

"Microsoft botches another copy job"

Microsoft. The Kinko's of the software industry.