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I just love Microsoft! Really!!

Feb 03, 09 - 04:53 pm Comment from: zek

Amazing what people will do to save a few dollars.

Feb 03, 09 - 04:56 pm Comment from: 84 Mac Guy

Microsoft never, ever learns.

Feb 03, 09 - 04:59 pm Comment from: ken1w

Windows 7 just recently started the open-to-public beta testing. I doubt it will be released in 2009. However, since it is basically a service pack for Vista, I suppose it could be rushed for release just before the 2009 holiday shopping season. But then again, even service packs take Microsoft a long time to complete and ship. And Microsoft tried to complete Vista in time for TWO holiday shopping seasons, and missed both with the general release finally taking place in January 2007

Will smearing the Vista pig with lipstick and cramming it into new "Windows 7" packaging really work?

Vista pig?? Folks, this is the same DOS pig that's been lipsticked and crammed (so far) into Windows 1-3, 95, 98, 2K, ME, XP, and Vista. With God knows how many sub-versions and service packs in between.

How much more cosmetic surgery can this crippled old sow take??

How about Windows 7 BSOD? Takes all the anxiety and frustration out of system crashes. With Windows 7 BSOD, the computer is "Pre-Crashed"™. No need to worry about when you might lose important work.

Without Microsoft's being the massive monstrosity of technological turpitude and creative cretinism Apple wouldn't amount to much of anything. The only thing that Apple fanbois consider important is how bad Microsoft is rather than how good Apple should be.

Seriously, if Apple fanbois exerted as much energy and effort in improving Apple's product lines, Microsoft would have been a footnote in history instead of a perennial distraction for Apple's own inferiorities.

Feb 03, 09 - 05:18 pm Comment from: Harvey

Microsoft and Dell don't know the difference between "choice" and "confusion," but unfortunately in this case, it's not as bad as it looks. In the US, Starter and Home Basic won't be available. Enterprise requires volume licensing. That means consumer choices are:

Home Premium
Professional
Ultimate

Business choices are:

Professional
Enterprise (best deal)
Ultimate

Now the real problem is that they are selling Windows to customers instead of users. Home and Business are types of customers, not types of users. If a professional web developer has a personal web site as a hobby. In terms of buying, he's a Home buyer at home and a Business buyer at work, but he's the same kind of user in both places. Somehow everyone except Apple has fallen under the delusion that their Home customers and their Business customers are two different species that never interbreed.

"We can fool some of the people all of the time, and most of the people some of the time."
- Microsoft's Corporate Motto

Feb 03, 09 - 05:22 pm Comment from: MacSmiley

I actually liked New Coke.

That "Windows 7" Starter isn't real, right? It's just satire. Right? Please?

Limited to three apps concurrently. What a stupid idea. Charging customers a little less in order to give them a whole lot less.

Remember K.I.S.S., Microsoft. Learn it. Use it. You've got the second 'S' down pat. Now you just need to work on the first three letters.

@ken1w
There's an interesting discussion on Ars about the new M$ release schedule. Apparently, the schedule has been "compacted" from the 2 beta and 2 release candidate model used with prior versions of Windows, including XP. Depending on your POV, that could mean:

1. M$ has such a good handle on the quality of the software that it doesn't need as much iteration with beta testers.

2. M$ has it in their head when this HAS to ship and needs to their pipeline to support it.

I think it's a little of both.

I forgot: Putting development effort into giving your customers less. Someone has to code the crippled "Starter" version. And someone else, undoubtedly many reporting levels away from the first team, has to code locks to prevent people from buying the "Starter" version and bypassing the three app limit.

Feb 03, 09 - 05:30 pm Comment from: Jubei

C'mon, spin it all you want. Windows 7 is just Vista repackaged. For Microsoft to develop a brand new OS from top to bottom in two years is simply impossible. Its Vista repackaged as Windows 7!!!! Get real.

The difference between Vista and New Coke? Coca-Cola was conscious enough to realize the disaster, and went back to something customers wanted (Coke Classic).

Now imagine if CC had charged forward and re-flavored New Coke instead!! Call it New New Coke or something. Coca-Cola would be little more than a Wikipedia entry today.

Will "Windows 7" be MS's "New New Coke"? Time will tell.

“Vista pig?? Folks, this is the same DOS pig that's been lipsticked and crammed (so far) into Windows 1-3, 95, 98, 2K, ME, XP, and Vista.”

Wow somebody with intimate knowledge of windows kernel programming on MDN!!!!

Really Apple hasn’t done anything new with their operating system since OSX, which they bought from third parties.

Let me offer some personal, albeit still limited, experience with Windows 7. I downloaded the public beta and proceeded to install it on my Shuttle (AMD 64 CPU). It failed to recognize my video card (a generic based on nVidia GeForce4 MX 4000), so I couldn't get proper resolution. It failed to recognize either of my network controllers (the embedded and an add-on). It failed to recognize that my CPU has two cores.

So what did I do? I installed it on my iMac under vmWare Fusion. The first thing I did when I got it running was run IE... in order to download Firefox. And, oh yeah. The beta is the "Ultimate" edition, so all those who get used to it as a beta will get less when they go retail. And did I tell you how ugly and confusing this thing is? Time to "suspend" and go back to my real computer.

Feb 03, 09 - 05:53 pm Comment from: Hm...

And not only 6 versions, 2 of which are retailed to most buyers, M$ claims: "All versions will run on netbooks." I still haven't stopped laughing...

Repeat after me:
"Windows 7 is Vista Too"

Again... and louder!

Feb 03, 09 - 05:56 pm Comment from: mac11

Been using Win 7 64-bit on my MacBook Air, and MB since the beta was available. My conclusion: more polished and smooth than xp, and much friendlier than the frustrating Vista. So, people, you have to re-adjust your views of Windows, because this is an actual improvement. It's surprisingly ready for common folks, as things pretty much installed without much pain.

Just throwing caution in the wind. Don't just repeat 'MS never learns' without actually experiencing the latest products. Snow Leopard will not have it as easy as Leopard, unless it is doubly improved over that of Win 7. Apple is still not finished doing the catch-up in market share after all.

M$ has such a good handle on the quality of the software that it doesn't need as much iteration with beta testers.

Oh my.

We've all owned products that were SO bad, it was pretty clear they were never tested by anyone who cared. No matter how good you think your engineering is, you still HAVE to test!!!

And to think MS was at that level before cutting back testing. This echos too much of Bad Old Detroit's program of either pressuring people to overlook problems, or finding issues too late in the design/launch process to effectively correct them.

"M$ has such a good handle on the quality of the software that it doesn't need as much iteration with beta testers."

It's really more that the beta has been very well received by IHVs and ISVs and end-users alike. This is why it's going straight to RC1 status with no further beta releases. Considering that W7 is a refinement of 6.0 code rather than something entirely new, that would make sense.

At the office, we're not rolling out W7 until April 2010. Then again, we only migrated completely from W2K as of last January...across 12K systems, no less. Upgrading is much slower in the business world.

Feb 03, 09 - 06:12 pm Comment from: ron

It's time for some Botox on those wrinkled Windows lips.

Feb 03, 09 - 06:24 pm Comment from: Mac Daddy

Oh, man, I got a great laugh on that joke list of Win7 versions - Starter, with only 3 programs at a time? Whoop! Good one!

Oh, wait, you mean that's real?....

Oh, Lord.

Feb 03, 09 - 06:40 pm Comment from: Hm...

On the other hand, Windows 7 doesn't need as much beta testing — because it's just Vista SP3!

Feb 03, 09 - 06:42 pm Comment from: ragarcia

mac11,

You have got to be kidding me.

I VMWared Fusion a copy of Windows 7 and it is terrible. It may be better than Vista, which I never bothered to try, but it still is terrible. I much prefer XP to this load of crap that Seven is.

For example, it requires at least two more clicks to change the monitor resolutions in Seven than in XP.

Feb 03, 09 - 06:52 pm Comment from: CYxodus

@abnsdf

Troll Alert!! Troll Alert!! Scramble the Truth Squads!! Fire at his weakest spot...his OS.

For example, it requires at least two more clicks to change the monitor resolutions in Seven than in XP.

If that was the worst problem in Windows, Apple would be extinct.

Feb 03, 09 - 07:05 pm Comment from: mac11

@ragarcia

My Win7 was installed via BootCamp, and not VMWare virtualization, so cannot speak much in that regard. But one must accept that Win7 is not officially supported in many ways, so it's not too surprising VMWare may have conflict with Win7. However, if Win7 BootCamps into Apple noteook without a hitch, that I believe is still pretty good for a beta.

Youe mentioning of 'two more clicks needed to change resolution'... I don't get it. When one right clicks on the desktop in Win7, you immediately get 'resolution' in the context menu. Don't find problem there.

Win7 does have a stability problem to a degree, so if one were to only use one version of Windows in a machine, I still have to give the nod to xp. But it's close. In my books, for a beta, that's pretty good. So heads up.

Feb 03, 09 - 07:16 pm Comment from: Dave

Business adoption rates are affected by software availability... This hurts the Mac in business, also.

We're in a niche business that uses software developed by small software developers for niche industries. We're using WIndows XP, but I thought I would check with one of our software vendors to see what the status of VISTA support was... Of the 3 software products that we use from this developer, only ONE is currently listed as compatible with VISTA (at least one other application isn't scheduled to be VISTA compatible until Q4 2009 and we all know how reliable software shipping dates are...).

These software products date back to MS-DOS and have pretty poorly designed Windows interfaces... Up until about 18 months ago, these software packages required that we use the HP LaserJet IIIsi driver to print to our much newer printers.

MS doesn't have much control over this type of situation...

Feb 03, 09 - 07:47 pm Comment from: ken1w

@ abnsdf

> The only thing that Apple fanbois consider important is how bad Microsoft is rather than how good Apple should be.

Really, I thought we made fun of Microsoft because it's fun.

Windows 7 Ulti-MUTT

The bitch is back, top dog of the windows pack.

“These software products date back to MS-DOS and have pretty poorly designed Windows interfaces... Up until about 18 months ago, these software packages required that we use the HP LaserJet IIIsi driver to print to our much newer printers.

MS doesn't have much control over this type of situation...”

Are you kidding? It’s because Microsoft has never fully walked away from MS-DOS that this situation has continued. Apple had the courage to walk away from OS9 and bring in a new era of computing with OSX. Microsoft will never do this and that’s why you’re using printers from the 80s.

I tried installing Win7 on my 6 year old Dell computer that I being used by my children. It does now work at all! Then I tried installing it on a 4 year old Mac. I does not work at all!!

Obvious proof that the OS is not ready for prime time.

Feb 03, 09 - 08:50 pm Comment from: ElderNorm

@ Mac11,
Hmmmm, I sort of agree. They finally cleaned up Vista and now its almost ready for sale.

But while a few might buy it in the box. Companies will wait for SP1. Just like Vista and to see how others like it.

the real sales will be thru Compact, HP, etc. So sales will start one at a time. And just like Vista, the amount sold will always be the larger of "what ever is possible" and the number of new computers sold.

I do think the reaction will be much more favorable since it will have some of Vista issues fixed. But will tech reviewers say..... " its better than Vista. But no reason to run and buy it. Wait until you upgrade and get it for free. "

Just a thought.
en

it's funny that they have an ultimate edition, since there's nothing ultimate about windows at all. ....and i can't imagine being stuck with a shitty low end version of something already crappy that supossedly only lets me run 3 things concurrently ...lol

Feb 03, 09 - 09:18 pm Comment from: MacSheikh

"Will Microsoft be able to fool the Windows sufferers yet again?"

Unfortunately, the answer is a big fat "YES".

Feb 03, 09 - 11:55 pm Comment from: Derek in Milan

DOS. Stolen from IBM and still being foisted on the public with a nasty GUI pasted over the top.

STILL they cant make good fonts on a DOS/Win box.

Still everything looks like shit.

Still its popular simply because its what is most popular.

Windows could be around for another 30 years.

What a horrible thought.

I installed Win7 using VirtualBox...

Installed OK, rebooted. First thing I get is a warning about not having anti-virus (shouldn't they work on getting Win7 to run so it DOESN'T require AV software?), so I download one recommended to me by Windows... Kaspersky.

Install the AV, reboot and BAM! My screen is garbled. It's fine until I login, then the screen becomes unreadable...

Is this what they call progress?

Bring on Snow Leopard, I can't wait.

Feb 04, 09 - 08:30 am Comment from: chaz

@MDN
Sure M$ has learned. They know and understand sheep herding. They love those enterprise customers and consumers who buy based on the price tag only to determine that they got a good "value". Once hooked, they will make these people suffer and drag them through repeated incremental upgrades, that all cost less than a new system, giving them even more "value".

I'm glad my parents taught me how discern value from cost. Wish more educators would help develop this logic in the US.

Feb 04, 09 - 09:35 am Comment from: Demon

I've used Windows 7 Beta (Vista 2) on a newer Dell system and started with a clean drive. Didn't install any of the drivers for the system and the Dell Vista Drivers most wouldn't install properly. It was slow as honey in 0 degree weather, crashed like crazy. Networking was so bad I considered greasing the Cat-5 cable up with butter to see if it would improve the speed. The UAC while mostly off was still over baring at times. Security is so bad that a slice of Swiss Cheese is more solid.

The Vista 2 is missing the DRM Layer for protection of Copyrighted content and with a few hacks you can right Blue-Ray DVDs without the anything standing in your way. Something you can't do with Vista 1. I would guess that Microsoft will add the DRM layers back in before the the Release candidate Build is done. The Beta is also missing some of the added protects to prevent file sharing of copyrighted material that they are contracted and obligated to add for the Music and Movie industries. The Network stack is also missing the Vista 1 DRM layer.

The MS Live Integration Shovelware also has not been added to Vista 2 yet. It's also unlikely that Vista 2 will ship without Silverlight being installed either. Microsoft also has a number of new OS features turned off or disabled in the Vista 2 beta.

Based on the following list of thinks MS still has to do before the Vista 2 release:

Add and test:
1) MS Live Integrations
2) Add the DRM and anti-piracy protections back in
3) Turn on and Test all the little features turned off or disabled in the beta
4) Fix some of the security issues from an Arms length list
5) Fix some of the OEM Vendors' lingering driver compatibility issues.
6) Fix some of the long outstanding IP v6 Bugs
7) Pre-package with Silverlight
8) Pre-package with IE 8
9) Fix the many, many crash bugs
10) Fix the issues with I/O stalls and disconnects

The 10 most likely things MS as reported will be in the Vista 2 release that are not in the Beta preview.

I don't think Microsoft is capable of getting Vista 2 ready, tested and out the door before the end of March 20010

Feb 04, 09 - 12:33 pm Comment from: MacRaven

Lately, write ups on tech sites testing Windows 7 has renewed my faith that Microsoft is SO stupid that Apple, even without Steve Jobs, would still easily produce far better products than Microsoft.

I don't think Microsoft is capable of getting Vista 2 ready, tested and out the door before the end of March 20010

Hehe, 20010.

And seriously, which leaves MS a choice of:

1. Re-skinning Vista as Windows 7.

2. Omitting the "ready" and "tested" parts.

Forget Vista, what if Windows 7 becomes another ME??