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I've been reading this site for far too long. I remember when that MDN take was written for the first time in 2005

Hmm, but GM is now in trouble because they were making crappy products. So:

If: "No company is invincible. Not even Microsoft." is true,
then: "No company is invincible. Not even Apple." must also be true,
since Apple is a company and NO company is invincible.

Jan 22, 09 - 07:39 pm Comment from: twilightmoon

Microsoft is going to be a very ugly Titanic watching it slowly break apart and sink to the bottom of the ocean.

The wreckage will go out for miles, and the waves created by the hull going underwater are going to knock over a few nearby boats as well.

Jan 22, 09 - 07:40 pm Comment from: twilightmoon

"since Apple is a company and NO company is invincible."

You forgot:

if Apple was run by S. Balmer, it would be in trouble too.

@ Maconymous - I agree.

I think the real downfall of many large companies has usually been their inability to react to change. That said, I believe Apple's biggest asset is the fact that they build products that people need sometimes before they even realize they need them.

Put simply, Apple is building tomorrows products today while everyone else is punching out copies of yesterdays products.

If Apple every looses sight of the future they will be doomed to fail like all others before them.

Cheers

Of course no company is invincible. Of course even Apple isn't. However there is a considerable difference between one that has pursued policies that have been heading in that direction for years without actually having the competence to recognise it, because of a few cash cows that are now under threat and one that is theoretically in danger solely because we know that theoretically no company is invincible.

The problem for MS is not only are Vista and Office 2007 products no one really needed, but they are crappy products no one needed.

Captain Balmer has steered the ship onto a sand bar, the massive propellers are churning a great froth, but nothing is being realized for the great effort.

Captain, thy Captain, sacrifice thyself to the depths so that the ship might right itself and once again sail upon the deep blue sea!

When the USS Microsoft slips beneath the waves, the wreckage will sink to the bottom and become a place for coral to grow. Apple, Linux, Open Office, and many other sea creatures will prosper amongst the coral and the (business) environment will be a better place for it.

Jan 22, 09 - 08:11 pm Comment from: ABQ Peter

the force reduction is a lot closer to 1 in 18 than 1 in 20.

Jan 22, 09 - 08:13 pm Comment from: Rainer

Hehe.
MSFT stock tanked.
Good that the execs recently decided that compensation in stock is so 20th-century and opted for cash-compensation
Employees in forums are outraged about the way the RIFs are managed (only 1400 heads rolling now, 3600 being dragged over the next 18 months).
Sounds like "Killing me softly with kisses" gone wrong...
But like IBM, MSFT will be around forever. They're the 21st century mainframes.

Jan 22, 09 - 08:25 pm Comment from: ken1w

At some point, I knew Microsoft would not be able to continue its "lose money initially for an indefinite period, fix the product over time, and eventual make a profit at some undefined point down the road" strategy forever. Looks like that time is NOW.

But Microsoft will continue to have a steady (if declining) source of revenue many years. At some point, it will become a lean and hungry company again. When MSFT really hits bottom, that may be a good time to buy shares. Perhaps that time will be after Microsoft inevitably announces Windows 7 being pushed to 2010.

of course, Ford got hammered by the stock market crash starting in 1929. GM made the cheaper car at the time. Lets also not forget that Ford was like IBM, the first to reach mass production viablility of its product, which certainly helped both of them dominate the markets.

word is windows 7 sucks worse than vista and xp performance wise.

One word: hubris.

When your mission as a business is only money-making, eventually a competitor will come along with a bigger sense of what they are in business to accomplish and the quality of their products and services will reflect that.

Jan 22, 09 - 09:25 pm Comment from: twilightmoon

It's not the number of people being laid off that's at issue. It's that this is the first real mass layoff in Microsoft company history.

Gone is the aura of invincibility and total job security for working at Microsoft.

This will hurt them a lot more than they can imagine as it effects the morale of the whole company. Damage to morale is difficult to measure but it has a huge impact on how companies operate.

Jan 22, 09 - 09:47 pm Comment from: Mr. Reeee

Let's not all gloat TOO hard…

… though it's DAMN TEMPTING.

since MS is the only client OS available to install on any old PC, their marketshare numbers aren't a surprise. Who cares about that marketshare number. Take a closer look and you'll see MS is in a BUNCH of money losing businesses because they fundamentally don't listen to consumers. That's what competition is supposed to do.

Eg. Apple iPod is the only player that has everything under one roof. By the time it took MS to realize the overall experience was so great, they ripped off the WRONG iPod.

Now everyone wants an iPod touch, and MS is standing there saying, "we got something better than the iPod Classic, bitches~~! Huh? Where'd everyone go.."

Dumbasses..

Their morale has been suffering for a long time. Just read mini-MSFT blog.

The issue raised by ken1w above is a real one. Microsoft has had hand over fist full of cash to throw after anything and everything since it struck it big in the 90s. Now, copying things may not be so easy. They will actually have to be smart about what they do-- and now that people actually have an expectation of what computing should be (unlike when they first struck it big)-- they will struggle a bit.

Too much for this post, but I believe Snow Leopard is a diversion and an update. The name, first off. Even the announced features seem to underplay OS X somehow. That is just not Apple's style. This is all setting the stage for a big change in OSes, I think. That is, Apple's OS. MS will have to copy a few years down the road. I think there's something big just over the horizon. Anyone remember when Shake (I think) was discontinued because Apple acknowledged some huge leap intended for some time down the road close to now? Anyway, there is a convergence of tech going on and MS does not seem entirely in the loop.

When it comes to the demise of M$, hope always springs eternal here at the MacDefenseNetwork.

Morans.

Don't get too cocky. If Microsoft is feeling the pinch, Apple is feeling it to. And Steve in poor shape at the moment is a double whammy for us Mac fans.

I say lay low, be happy with the Mac products you currently own, (though by all means buy more if you can/need/want to) and just wait for all this to blow over.

Apple is not invincible.... Do you recall (Quick Mr. Peabody turn on the way-back machine) the dark, days of Apple? Apple living off of an old idea, not growing, just trying to make a new buck off of the same old ideas... Stock prices in the tank, no innovation, every pontificator calling them down and out for the count? I thought my beloved Apple would soon be gone. But Apple came back. Lean, Mean, full of new ideas and a plan.

I doubt that MS has a serious comeback in their future. They have never had the traits that made Apple great, but Apple will be less harmed by this downturn than the old-school fat cats. Apple has been there... done that. MS is probably in full tilt panic mode right now. Rightfully so.

What's the difference between the actual situation at Apple and Microsoft?

None. For the next months to come, both companies are losing JOBS

Jan 22, 09 - 11:36 pm Comment from: Botvinnik

Chuch: "But Apple came back. Lean, Mean, full of new ideas and a plan."

Apple didn't come back, His Steveness did.

signed,
Mr. Peabody

Now if the U.S. Government would lay off a similar portion of its workforce... The Feds strike me as the Microsofts of world governments. Bloated, complacent and bereft of ideas.

Jan 22, 09 - 11:50 pm Comment from: Arnold Ziffel

@Another IT Guy,

What the hell is a 'Moran?'

@Luc Landry

Heh heh good one!

Anyway screw MIcrosoft. At least there is one good thing coming from this recession.

@ Luc Landry

where apple leads... microsoft follows!

apple is losing "Jobs" for a while ... microsoft tried to copy that, but wrongly as usual.

Jan 23, 09 - 12:55 am Comment from: DogGone

M$ still has a long way to go down. They are still making 14B revenue and 4B profit PER Quarter. Their monopoly will keep them going for a while unfortunately.

Where's ZuneTang?

Then GM thought it was invincible. Now it is begging for money.

I wonder if Zune Tang got a pick slip?

Oops, make that "I wonder if Zune Tang got a PINK slip?"

This is not good news. Anytime 5000 people lose their jobs with many of them concentrated in the Seattle area it has ripple. Many will be hurt. These are sad times.

Microsoft have finally realised they that they are well past their peak and that its downhill from here. Competition is stronger, the monopoly is weaker, the OEM partners are no longer in full financial health and the EU is again investigating them.

These redundancies are a milestone that the employees will notice and a new less secure mindset will form. The King is not dead yet but he is feeling worn out.

As allready written many times: M$ is doooooooooooooooooooomed! Period!

Apple is not invincible. But, for now and for the next 7 years it is.

No one comes close. It is Rank Zerox Park and every other innovation business put together. The DNA is there to make it happen for years to come..

Great line from Gary above:

"Captain Balmer has steered the ship onto a sand bar, the massive propellers are churning a great froth, but nothing is being realized for the great effort."

LOL!

Jan 23, 09 - 09:14 am Comment from: chaz

@shadow

I don't agree, what you have to be able, willing and strong enough to do is to leave behind what works today and deliver a better product / method for tomorrow. IBM didn't do it, and MS isn't either.

Know your markets, know your competitors and get out there and compete.

Make a better browser, don't just add it to your OS to kill your competition. The M$ monopoly let M$ think they could make me too products, and package it with the monopoly OS or Office and continue to progress.

It might have worked too, except, they became hooked on cash spun off of those products and wasted it in a binge of R&D;spending, waste products like Zune, xBox, etc. and lost their way.

Well it is going to take a bit more, but yes, the MS fortress is starting to crumble.

Finally.

Good Morning Chaz

I think you may be misunderstanding my point. I agree with what you are saying. Apple has fought it's way to the top by providing products that people want. Sometimes even before they realize they want them.

If Apple looses sight of that, and becomes to large to react to changes, they could face the same future as other big companies.

Cheers

Jan 23, 09 - 09:57 am Comment from: MacRaven

@Maconymous
Said:
"If: "No company is invincible. Not even Microsoft." is true,
then: "No company is invincible. Not even Apple." must also be true, since Apple is a company and NO company is invincible."

Well yeah, duh! Any Apple Fanatic admits that.
If Apple screws up it will go the same way, just as it almost did when Scully was CEO 1983 to 93. He took Apple for a nose dive to a near death experience.

No company is invincible. As Tim Cook said during the analysts conference call “ We welcome competition ”. All good companies do because they know it will force them to be better in the products and services they offer to customers. MS got bloated and took their customers for granted. Took them 5 years to out out a bloated, crappy new OS called Vista and then had the nerve to convince people it wasn't so bad by using focus groups and calling it a different name. A pig with lipstick on is still a pig. They deserve a kick in the ass.

Jan 23, 09 - 10:03 am Comment from: jocknerd

@chuch

Apple didn't make a comeback. Apple died in 1996. The new Apple is actually what became of NeXT.

Jan 23, 09 - 10:07 am Comment from: Demon

Microsoft is not hit bottom just yet. Bottom will be later this year when they start to kill and jettison unprofitable products and services.
I would suspect the Board will also be wanting spending on Ballmer's pet obsession scaled way back to keep from being in the red ink zone. Google will have to wait till Microsoft gets it crap lined up. Too bad tossing money at beating (Catching nay make bend in the slide away from Microsoft Live search) Google.
Microsoft can keep tossing millions (or even Billions) at Live Search for the next 20 (plus) years the bent they'll make in Google will be minor.
Microsoft lacks fundamental key ingredients to ever make Live Search anything more then a very minor player in the world of on-line Advertising.

Why Microsoft will never break out of it's small niche search ad Small third/forth place player.

1) The vast majority of Internet users do not trust Microsoft
2) Microsoft and anything associated Microsoft is uncool on the Web.
3) Linux and Mac users avoid Microsoft Web Properties at all cost, and all the cool site trends are set by Mac and Linux users and not Windows Users.
4) Microsoft equals proprietary control, boring user interface, lackluster performance, poor usability, never quite a polished finish no matter how many updates have occurred and evil monopoly mongers.
5) Kids know Microsoft is so far from being kewl that they stay away.

Jan 23, 09 - 10:08 am Comment from: Demon

Get Ballmer a Truck load of Office Furniture because the truth hurts!

Such immaturity. One would think Apple is a loser of a company, run by incompetent idiots since you all imply that Microsoft must fail for Apple to succeed. This is the losers way of thinking.

Can you say Windows 7? If not, then try again. Microsoft is finally doing something right and it will pay big dividends later this year. Apple? I am sure they have more great things up their sleeves, so I do not worry about them.

Continued change at a sometimes uncomfortable pace is thing that separates Apple from its competition. Remember that the next time you're bitching about DisplayPort or FireWire.

Thank you, MDN, for this delicious dose of schadenfreude.

MW: Hell. Microsoft has hell to pay.

i have no love for Microsoft but i'm truly sorry to hear 5000 employees are losing their jobs.

Jan 23, 09 - 12:56 pm Comment from: Predrag

Josh (the iMac Guy):

I'm sure we all can say Windows 7. And Windows 8. and nine. However, the track record so far makes a lot of people skeptical (to say the least). Most recent experience with Longhorn/Vista, which took YEARS to brew, indicates that the Beta looks better than what ends up in the final product. A lot of features were yanked from Longhorn betas because they broke some legacy support/applications/systems. With such heavy investment in the enterprise, there is no doubt in my mind that this beta will morph into something much less exciting and more like Vista by the time all those legacy-breaking features are removed again.

We can wait and see, and many are holding out hope against hope. As a Mac user (and a fan), I'm hoping MS remains consistent and true to itself (and consequently, fails miserably again, with Windows 7). I have absolutely no reason to believe there has been a 180-degree change in the corporate philosophy there.

Firefox?

Macro Marco

"ZuneTang was the creation of Ampar, and he doesn't come to this site anymore. Along with TowerTone, Chrissy1, and Jim-TIV"

Yeah, Oh No My Shorts bailed on us too.

C1 does pop in once in a while.