MacDailyNews - Where Mac news comes first

Nov 28, 07 - 02:54 pm Comment from: Grigori

How is that even possible? It buggers belief...

That explains the lack of lawsuits from M$ over the ad.

Nov 28, 07 - 03:00 pm Comment from: auren

I watched in horror recently when someone tried to run a PowerPoint presentation on a brand new HP with Vista. First, they couldn't figure out how to get the projector to recognize the video signal. I watched them reboot the computer at least 4 or 5 times and it was agonizing waiting for the thing to boot up.

I quietly asked the owner what they thought of Vista and the immediately commented how frustrated they were with how slow it truly was.

My oh my, what a dog.

Nov 28, 07 - 03:01 pm Comment from: Macaday

Oooops. Chairs are flying because Redmond thought no-one was going to spot this, or if they did, actually say it.

And Leopard is considerably faster than XP....

Add me to the list of Mac converts. My kid bought a Vista notebook a few months back, and I quickly learned it is an OS that I absolutely despise. I'm not religious about it: I find XP SP2 to be a decent stable OS. But Vista is just disgusting.

So, now that we have our new iMac running Leopard, I'm just wondering what took me so long. I get the feeling that I've stumbled upon a computer from 50 years into the future. It just works, and blindingly fast at that.

Leave it to MS to turn the latest Intel processors into dogs.

Nov 28, 07 - 03:09 pm Comment from: coolfactor

The poor souls that accept this nonsense.

My dog is fast.

Vista really sucks. A friend of mine just brought a HP laptop with Vista and it is slower than my 3 year old IBM thinkpad that.

@ M. Flynn,

Welcome! We hope you share your experience with other non-Mac users and show them that computers don't have to be all complicated and such.

Nov 28, 07 - 03:19 pm Comment from: HolyMackerel

"Ask not what Vista can do for you, but what you can do for Vista"

He really said "… but what you can BUY for Vista"

Nov 28, 07 - 03:32 pm Comment from: Demon

I love that commercial.

"Don't ask what Vista can do for you, ask what you can buy for Vista."
"I when back to XP 2 weeks ago and I'm feeling much better."

Nov 28, 07 - 03:36 pm Comment from: Jubei

Well doesn't Vista mean:

a pleasing view, esp. one seen through a long, narrow opening

Hmm I guess thats how they came up with the brown Zune color. Yuck!

Nov 28, 07 - 03:41 pm Comment from: Big Al

Us smug Apple fanboys really piss Windows users off.

They all point to the commercials as evidence of the smugness.

It must hurt like hell to find out that the commercials are based on factual evidence.

In all fairness, this reminds me a lot of when OS X replaced OS 9. Everyone was moaning about how much slower it was, how it just didn't feel as snappy, and so on.

In reality, though, this kind of thing is unavoidable when you go from an OS with very limited visual effects (and a "shared canvas" drawing model) like OS 9 or XP to one with lots of snazzy effects and a composited drawing model like OS X or Vista - among other changes. There's simply more the computer has to do. (In the long run, I think this change makes the computer feel MORE responsive, not less, because you don't get windows turning into giant erasers and similar bizarre effects when other processes are blocked waiting for IO - but I digress)

What's funny about Vista, though, is that Microsoft basically had their hand forced into adding the degree of visual effects (and thus slowness) they did by Mac OS X. Yet instead of doing what they know best and creating a quick and dirty knockoff of Quartz, they decided they'd try and leapfrog Apple with Aero. I don't fully understand the differences, but a friend who works for MS was explaining to me how Aero is superior to Quarz - something about how rather than just using a 3D engine to composite flat "texture bitmaps" (windows) like OS X, Aero actually treats every window as a full 3D object in space (which enables the wonderfully useless Flip3D effect).

It almost feels like the Office and Windows teams switched places for Vista and Office 2007. Used to be that Office was bloated and awkward to use, and Windows, while crummy, was at least somewhat minimalistic and humble. Now Office 2007 is much more streamlined (at least the UI), and Vista is the bloated, over-designed product. Weird.

Vista is Bill's way of saying:

Look yo'll shiatheads, I can put anything I want out there and you will still buy it, and if you don't buy it, your company will and you will have to use it, like it or not.
I am the king of the pc world, bow down and eat my shiat.

Nov 28, 07 - 03:52 pm Comment from: ericdano

Ah, Microsoft. When Dvorak has a Vista deathwatch going, you know you are in trouble.

The comparison with OS 9/OS X 10.0/10.1 is fair I suppose. However, basically closed the books on OS 9, and provided support for it, but on a limited basis. Microsoft decided to support older software with Vista. That was the mistake. They really need to break clean. The next version of Windows needs to be like OS X 10.0 was. Provide support for legacy applications, but provide a new, clean, improved OS core.

Like that will happen......

Nov 28, 07 - 03:52 pm Comment from: Big Al

Ryan,

We are not comparing the speed of Vista to no visual effects XP. As Mac users, we are comparing equal visual effects Vista to Mac OS X Tiger or Leopard.

Since either Tiger or Leopard is faster than XP there is no excuse for Vista being twice as slow as XP.

Your excuses are invalid.

Nov 28, 07 - 03:52 pm Comment from: me

Sad observation....

An intern where I work just bought a nice HP laptop with Vista. It sucked so bad he "upsidedowngraded" to XP. He put a skin or something on XP so that it looked like Vista.

Just today, he was using the laptop and XP threw a BSD. Even attempting to LOOK like Vista is bad news for people who insist on the Windows world.

Nov 28, 07 - 03:52 pm Comment from: BustingTheSkullsOfIdiots

I'm afraid that Aero doesn't make the computer feel any faster, if user experiences with Vista have any bearing on the situation.

Nov 28, 07 - 03:57 pm Comment from: Zune Tang®

I like Vista.

Your potential. Our passion.™

Nov 28, 07 - 04:02 pm Comment from: amyhre

Vista. Suddenly gnawing off your own leg doesn't seem like such a ludicrous idea anymore.

going to work to a Windows only place. Talking directly to my boss ho promised to look into my request to work with a Mac OS X platform in the next months. He seems interested into the Mac himself but warned about not being too pushy.

For those of you out there already in this situation (forced into a Windows platform at work (XP) ), what can I do to minimize my suffering, how to blend so that I could actually pretend to use Windows XP while instead continue to work on my Mac?

Please, reply here for all to profit but as well to seahawkqb AT mac DOT com

THANKS!

i work at the college i'm currently attending, and even though it isn't my job to be an IT guy i get so many complaints about vista. some people mention they got a new PC and i'll ask "how do you like it?" and they say they can't stand vista, that they liked their old PC better. i gently insert "yeah, XP is a bit better than vista, but i prefer macs". being GENTLE about it is the way to get people's attention!

Nov 28, 07 - 04:18 pm Comment from: Mr. Reeee

The bad news about Vista just keeps on rolling in!
If MS wasn't such a crappy, monopolistic turd, of a company that cheated, stole and lied their way to the top on the back of losy products, I might even feel sorry for it.

Maybe THAT'S why Gates bailed a few years back.

Wow, "turd" brought up a spelling error, so it wasn't in my OS X dictionary... it is now. Thanks MS!

Nov 28, 07 - 04:23 pm Comment from: ken1w

Vista is slow because Microsoft slapped it together during the final 18 months before release, after giving up on the "original" Longhorn concept and starting over. Mac OS X has been steadily optimized over seven major releases (counting Tiger for Intel as a separate release). Knowing Microsoft, Vista is not going to get much better during the next 4-5 years. I feel very sorry for the drones who won't even consider trying a Mac and the "employees" who have no choice due to choices made by their employers.

Vista is actually so far ahead of its time that Intel hasn't yet made a processor that it can run on.

sorry

Sort of like Back to the Future?

Nov 28, 07 - 05:09 pm Comment from: blue

I will be needing to buy Windows for my son to play his edutainment games (since it requires OS9 or Windows, it'll be cheaper to buy windows for about $100 than to buy an older Mac to run OS9). I'm not even considering Vista.

Nov 28, 07 - 05:09 pm Comment from: Buster

I have some friends that say they love Vista....well they are not really close friends...

Nov 28, 07 - 05:37 pm Comment from: Darkness

No, Vista is slow because of the protected video pathways that Microsoft insisted on using in an attempt to curry favor with Hollywood. That's right--the true culprit is DRM.

Use Vista at your own risk. At the risk of being hyperbolic, Vista is the first tool of your future enslavement.

Nov 28, 07 - 05:42 pm Comment from: neomonkey

...how to blend so that I could actually pretend to use Windows XP while instead continue to work on my Mac?

I don't know about that, but there is a way to make XP resemble OS X. I never realised how much of the pain of using Windows was because of the ugly appearance until I used this. It messes with people's heads too.

http://www.macnn.com/articles/07/04/04/making.xp.resemble.os.x/

In reality, though, this kind of thing is unavoidable when you go from an OS with very limited visual effects (and a "shared canvas" drawing model) like OS 9 or XP to one with lots of snazzy effects and a composited drawing model like OS X or Vista - among other changes. There's simply more the computer has to do.

I think a good chunk of the PC and Mac using public has experienced this effect and understands it. But while OS X was hard on systems never intended to run it (Old World Macs), Vista not only invalidates PC hardware purchases from even 18 months ago, it breaks an enourmous amount of otherwise perfectly fine peripherals, and that insult to injury is what pushes sme over the edge.

Fine I need a video card newer than 2.5 years old. But don't bother with Vista if you are running a single processor. And throw out your web cams and Palm devices. And printers. ANd forget performance altogether. And 64 bit support for anything older than a year.

Just you wait. MS will 'fix' XP SP 3 so that, magically, Vista SP1 will be significantly faster than XP SP 3. Hell, they might even release a hotpatch to 'fix' XP SP 2 so this happens...

In all fairness, this reminds me a lot of when OS X replaced OS 9. Everyone was moaning about how much slower it was, how it just didn't feel as snappy, and so on.

In Apple's defense, OS X 10.0 was an all-new beast (from Apple anyway). The way Apple improved OS X's speed over subsequent revisions is a feat I'd love to see MS equal.

Imagine if Apple had patched Aqua onto OS 8, managed to make it run half as fast with twice the resources, and called it OS X. Oh, and underneath it all, still be running the old Apple II ProDOS.

THAT'S the kind of mess MS finds itself in today.

When my Windows-only workplace supplied a Vista machine for me to work on, I did try... but only lasted a week. After that, I just brought my Mac in from home and started using that instead. The company ended up leasing it from me for a year.

Nov 28, 07 - 07:01 pm Comment from: feral

at least you had the choice of booting into OS9 or OSX when apple released the first cat...

Problem is that as where I work, there are always those totally obnoxious IT gits who spread FUD as fast as they can invent it regarding Vista vs Mac. Its simply amazing how gullable people can be when someone whose mouth is bigger than their brain starts bleating their garbage.

HP and Dell bribed M$ to make Vista dog slow in order to sell new hardware. Office alone can no longer drag down relatively recent Intel processors, it takes an OS "fix" to do the deed.

Nov 28, 07 - 07:10 pm Comment from: Macaday

Great thread this...

"I'm just wondering what took me so long. I get the feeling that I've stumbled upon a computer from 50 years into the future."

"Vista is actually so far ahead of its time that Intel hasn't yet made a processor that it can run on."

"Imagine if Apple had patched Aqua onto OS 8, managed to make it run half as fast with twice the resources, and called it OS X. Oh, and underneath it all, still be running the old Apple II ProDOS."

Brilliant guys...

Perhaps I should clarify my earlier comment, after reading some of the replies.

I didn't mean to imply that the migration to a new graphics engine is the sole reason for Vista's slowness (DRM probably contributes too), or that Mac OS X suffers from the same slowness problem. I just think the similarities and differences are interesting between Aero and Quartz, and the respective OS upgrades that introduced them.

"clunker" hit the nail on the head, though: Quartz would be more similar to Aero (in terms of problems) if Apple had grafted it onto OS 8.

There's little doubt that Windows is overdue for an architectural overhaul on the scale of Mac OS X. Let's just hope when it finally comes, it gets rid of drive letters and the registry as we know it. (Or perhaps, for Apple's sake, that it doesn't!)

Nov 28, 07 - 07:19 pm Comment from: LorD1776

MicroSoft needs to start with a clean slate. Dump support for obsolete crap like floppy disks, serial and parallel ports, PS/2 connectors, etc. They need to quit worrying about the possible needs of everyone and move on, just as Apple does. They could run two operating systems for a long enough period of time to allow people to transition. Probably a longer amount for the business sector, but that is to be expected. Whether based on UNIX or something else, they will never advance until they do. It's pathetic all the time and resources they have squandered with Vista. It amazes me that stockholders accept this amount of incompetence.

And let me add that I posted this from a Vista machine at work (promptly loaded with Safari however, since Vista + IE7 = Dog).

It's shiny but that's about the only obvious "benefit." Otherwise, it's typical Microsoft "designed and dumbed down by commitee review process." The new Windows Explorer is a disjointed mess, visually and navigation-wise.

Nov 28, 07 - 07:48 pm Comment from: Ampar

Vista is New Coke.

I hate GD Windows so much that I have turned down good paying jobs because of it.

I don't do Windows.

Really.

Whens the real Vista coming out. Surley this is just a beta.

As it written.

Abandon hope all ye who enter here...

It looks like Loooooooonnnnnnnnnnngggg Horn should have been kept as the original name. It fits the performance of Vista perfectly.
A very long time to do anything.

WTF...! Vista is great! A wonderful product. Just perfect!!!

For Apple