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Most of the people who use Office use only the basic features and only buy Office for themselves because they are used to using it and know a few shortcuts. Mossberg is reviewing iWork as if it was trying to fill every 'hard core' business need out there, not what 90% of people actually use every day.

Getting the majority of people away from using Office will be just as difficult as it is to get them away from Windows. Maybe even harder, since a lot of people do all their work on their PCs in Office programs. The sooner we get everybody over to the Mac, the sooner they'll see they don't really need Office either.

Mossberg is right. All it takes is someone to send you a reasonably sophisticated Word or Excel file that you iWork can't convert properly, and you're screwed. Same thing if you're trying to send somebody somethey THEY can't open. If it's a customer, then you're really screwed.

The Pages program...still de-emphasizes some writer-friendly features. For instance, its auto-correct function is much weaker than Word’s. Another example: In Word, to see how many words your document contains, you just glance at the bottom of the screen. In Pages, you must dig down into a submenu to find the answer. The command for showing invisible formatting marks also is harder to find than in Word.

Yep.

iWork rocks.

It's all you need.

I think Mossberg feels he needs to give a negative review for at least one Apple product to appear credible for all the positive reviews he has given for other Apple products. Too bad he has to misinform to be credible.

Dear MacDailyNews folks, you should accept iWork doesnt match up with M$ apps for business users. Nothing will suit for everybody. Just accept it instead of commenting about Walt's review

Give it a rest!

Many people think they need MS Office, when they don't.

However, some people do need it. As Walt said, <i>"But iWork simply isn’t as powerful or versatile as Microsoft Office, especially when it comes to word processing and spreadsheets."

So leave us power users alone. I've tried the new Pages demo - it doesn't make the mark for me. I'd like to see the opinions of heavy spreadsheet users on Numbers.

The wonderful thing about the Mac environment now is that there is such a great choice of software - tools, really - available. Let people freely choose the one that fill their needs.

"... Numbers, thus completing one of its least known products". Who says iWork is now "complete"? I suspect Apple is hardly done here. There's still no database, still no Outlook or Entourage counterpart. And Numbers is just at 1.0.

Apple first took MS on in the multimedia arena, with Quicktime and iTunes. Then Safari took on IE. Then Keynote against Powerpoint, Pages against Word, and Numbers against Excel. Anyone else see a pattern here? With Apple firing on all cylinders, there's clearly more to come.

I've been trying iWorks for a few days now. I like it a lot.

I like iWork and just converted from the Trial version to the paid version but I have to agree with Uncle Walt.

I'm trying to use iWork as much as possible, but there are a few things missing. Especially proper grammar checking in Pages.
That should be a minimum requirement for anything to be used in business.

Numbers has to look at doing some basic tables with sorts and filters such as Excel. If someone sends me a document with a simple table with filtering, I'm dead in the water. Numbers doesn't even come close to anything that resembles Pivot Tables.

It's a great start but if Apple wants to be a contender, they have to do a little more than basics. If people are going to need a copy of Excel on standby in case they get a document that has a few slightly advanced features, it makes it harder to justify buying Numbers.

As for the "MacDailyNews Take": Guys, I love the site, and love the info that you bring us. But you have to start getting a little more objective and not bash anyone that criticizes Apple.

Until that happens your credibility is going to keep going downhill.

Most of what Apple does in software is aimed at selling more Macs (and iPods and iPhones). If the user has already made the switch to Mac, who cares if they are using iWork or Office. Who cares if they are using Excel in a basic way that would all them to use Numbers instead. They are using Macs; that's the important thing.

While it is fun to make fun of Windows Vista and Zune, I support any development effort on the Mac platform, including the work of the Mac BU at Microsoft. If Microsoft decided to kill Office 2008 for Mac now, it would definitely hurt the Mac platform.

#1: MDN is disagreeing with Mossberg, not "bashing" him.

#2: MDN is right - more people than not would benefit from dumping MS Office and switching to iWork 08.

I am really starting to like Numbers,

My big problem, I was converting excel work sheets to Numbers , then trying to spiff them up with the different layouts.

I now realize for me (I am not a power user) the best route is to cut and paste into Numbers.
Another thing I like about it, is I save as PDF and with iWeb add as a web page, I think I will have a pretty nice web site for a little project I am doing with out having to learn alot about web design
I was playing around and did this in about 30 minutes,
http://web.mac.com/hotinplaya/MAKNUK2/Blog/Entries/2007/8/12_Maknuk_numbers_copy.html

Raymond from DC-
Why would Apple develop *another* database? Apple already owns FileMaker, Inc., and FileMaker has been available for years. It's already a strong competitor to MS Access, even more so with the latest release.
For Outlook/Entourage, wouldn't Mail/iCal/Address Book be the counterpart? Granted, the OS X Tiger versions aren't as well integrated as they could be, but that appears to be changing once Leopard is out.

I'll probably give iWork a try at some point, but probably not until I start having problems with Office 2004. Why spend money to "fix" something that is working for me? I don't use PowerPoint much, so Keynote doesn't buy me much. And I've only had some minor issues with Excel and Word. Not that I feel they're the best products possible, but I doubt that iWork makes significant enough changes to make my tasks more efficient enough to justify the purchase price and the time to convert all the various documents I have.

I'm heading for iWorks. Office is fine for Word but I have NEVER been able to have a lengthy session with Entourage before it crashes. The other two I don't give a flying fuck about. Once I get iWorks I'm losing this Microsoft Bloatware offa my Mac.

What the hell is a pivot table? Again, most people won't need the power features you speak of. That's not to say that Apple may boost the feature set later on down the road. iWork does the job now for the average user.

So many of the commenters here have ZERO reading comprehension. MDN's take, you functionally illiterate morons, is that iWork works for MOST people, NOT ALL.

My husband and I run a multi hundred million dollar business we've never used MS Office in our business. Appleworks always suited our spreadsheet needs just fine. We've been using Keynote before Apple launched iWork, Pages does more the Word and creates perfect PDF documents for electronic distribution. We are converting to Number now from AppleWorks. I see no reason or need to buy MS Office. We converted to Liquid Ledger as our account software package from Quickbooks Pro a few years ago because it became too Microsoft Office centric. It also allowed us to streamline our accounting and reporting. From what I've used of Numbers it's a very solid and robust spreadsheet application that will only get better with each release. So as a Business User I can tell you straight up you do not need MS Office for your business. I'm thinking of writing a book about running a business without using a single Microsoft product be Windows, Money, Project, Visio or Office, let me what you think.

iWork is worth it just for Keynote alone!! Keynote runs circles around Powerpoint.

They need to come out with a full featured iWork Pro for those who need it.

For anyone who has to do a lot of redlining, the first version of Pages was basically useless. But I'm looking forward to trying out the "comments" function in the new version.

Typical consumers don't need MS Office now. Period. iWork '08 is more than powerful enough for the typical consumer. Business users, especially those that need to work with very complex spreadsheets however will definitely want to stick with Excel (and Office) for now.

Apple isn't trying to get big business to switch over to iWork yet anyway. iWork '08 is a consumer class product, and typical consumers don't need the bloat of a business class suite of applications. iWork '08 is more than enough for those people.

Chrissy-one is correct if all or the majority of all you do is tied to MS Office. Writers, business and corporate officers plus a few others I'm sure would fall into this category, but the vast majority would not. The endless functionality buried and hidden within the creases and caverns of Office bloat-ware may be of value to some but of little value to most.
I work with several word processors and other text creating software as well as spreadsheet programs in order to do the page layout and design work that I create. Trust me when I say there are much better programs for doing page layout and formating than MS Office and other software of this type.

Ahem, I've been using plain old Appleworks for years in preference to Excel.
Nothing wrong with either actually, and my accountant and I swap between the two seamlessly.
The new goodies in iW seem made for the likes of me -- a creative who has to crunch the numbers as well, but preferably at the end of the day!!

I think he gave a pretty fair review. Word is a much more robust word processing app than Pages, however, Pages is a much better page layout program. I think Apple would do best, though, to do whatever necessary to make it 100% compatible with Word. Until it is, I'll use it as much as I can, but I still need Word.

Numbers is great, but it's just a 1.0 release, so it's got a lot of catching up to do. The ability to easily print your document is a huge step ahead of Excel in my book - worth the price of admission for that alone!

Keynote, however, blows PowerPoint away in every way. There's absolutely no contest. PowerPoint has barely changed since it's initial release. Keynote version 1.0 was better than PowerPoint is now.

Uncle Walt is right. While iWork is undoubtedly elegant, many Mac users out here need MS Office, both for features lacking in its alternatives, and for the need to work in close collaboration with Windoze-using colleagues.

Isn't using Keynote moot if you are designing presentations for clients that don't have Macs, and use Powerpoint? They need to constantly update the presentations.

I mean, that's the only reason I even launch a lame-ass app like Powerpoint in the first place.

I have been using MS Office for many years. It's been wonderful for me both in business (on PeeCee's), and at home on my Macs.

With the type of work I do at home on my Mac, and after trying iWork '08, I made the switch. It's too elegant, easy, and productive. Also, and this is a big one for me, I do NOT want to spend another $275 to upgrade MS Office whenever it comes out. I love my iMac 24" (white model), and the more Apple software I use on it, the better it runs. Just superb from day one!

I wish I had it that easy at work!

iWork is not MS Office. It is not trying to be. The best part of this is for a mere $79 more you can have the best of both worlds. If iWork was expensive well then you could compare the two side by side. For many iWork plus NeoOffice or some Open Office product will get the job done. For others you will want MS Office just so you don't have to screw around with documents that have be exchanged within a group. For very little extra cash I get to create better looking documents in less time when I don't have to share the document. A real bargain.

ndelc...

Good stuff. If you don't know what pivot tables are, then you are considered a basic spreadsheet user....go buy iWork for Pete's sake!

If you do need pivots, and let's face it, I can do things much faster with Pivot Tables than even our DBA can do with his tools, it makes it tough to jump wholly over to Numbers. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE where they are going....and they will get there.

Apple's target market has not yet aimed itself squarely for business users. It's goal is to conquer the home first and then the work place. Much like MS did. And they are doing a great job. For instance, the templates are for personal use, education, or small businesses.

When Apple DOES turn towards the business crowd, expect the iPhone, and iWorks apps to take on the professional polish and features that their film editing software has. Translation, iWorks may work for some business users but for Power Users, comes up short on handling complex documents and spreadsheets.

Still, I just love where they are going.....

Now we rely on Microsoft for correct grammar - Wow when I grew up we actually learned correct grammar - We really shouldn't need that kind of checker.

@Chrissy-one is a hottie:

I agree with you for the compatibility thing, but I like the spel check that the new Pages has. I remember when I couldn't even change the Spell Check language in iWork, and now, with Pages, I can, and I am pretty satisfied with it. It's true that it does not measure to the Microsoft Word Spell Check, but you should give it a little time in order to pick up in that area. I am sure that it will eventually catch up as people send comments...

I just got a new max'd out 24" iMac. I still think of it, for me, as an upgrade from my quad core G5 running a 24" Dell monitor. I made a vow to try and keep it M$ free, oh, except for the copy of xpee that I have running under parallels, really just for IE6 on closed websites and those times when you get something that is completely non Mac.


To that end, I am going to try my hardest to make iWork work for me rather than use office. I figured now was as good a time as any to try since I was going to have to re-install some kind of productivity suite.


A few examples so far, though:


- I just got a "deck" from a very, very large OEM in a very, very large industry. If you're not hip on the lingo as I wasn't, a "deck" is a set of power point slides. I went to open it and while it looked the same as in the WebEx (another time where parallels is a safer bet) where it was shown, one of the errors that came up was some missings FONTS. One of them was a MS Office standard font that the company uses as their standard font in a certain setting. I didn't have it so Keynote couldn't show it. Should I re-install office for mac just to get have a few fonts in the system? Maybe...especially if I ever need to make a document using that (simple) font. Or do I go and try and buy fonts or install them piece meal one by one? What if the whole "deck" had been in that font and lost its look and feel?


- I have a few monthly reports that I do that up until now I have done in Excel for Mac. I tried opening them in Numbers and while they looked mostly correct there are a few conventions that are going to have a bit of a learning curve. Heck I might even get one to one or pro care or whatever it is to give me a jump start. While I'm not sure at first glance how to try and make some of my graphs work to add on what will soon be August results I can say this: just by converting the plain old standard Excel graph in to the same type of graph in Numbers looked SO much better. If you are trying to sugar coat not so great numbers or make great numbers look even better Numbers will surely do that. I don't want to make it sound arts and craftsy as uncle Walt kind of did, though. Kind of like Keynote, however, even if you just use the stock templates in any of iWork you'll look different than 98% of what you see.


- I did open up one document in Pages that was total simple text and it looked the same and had no errors or anything.


I think that iWork like so many other things by Apple is intuitive out of the box. I do think based just on a few examples in a couple days' time that if you're trying to do the same things in iWork that you did in office that you're in for a bit of a challenge and a small learning curve. But, I do think that I and anyone else that goes thru it will be the better for it.


I think that for output as someone has said, PDF will get you by 99% of the time. Putting out interactive "decks" I'm not so sure. I am sure willing to give it a try, though.

Hey guys, stop bashing Excel.
Excel is a true product of the Mac and is one of the applications together with Aldus PageMaker that helped make the original Mac a success.

I tried importing a "real business" Excel spreadsheet into Numbers and it churned out about 150 import errors. ...such as input validation settings as an example.

For a large number of Mac users, Numbers is a nice addition to the iWork suite making it even more attractive, but for many business users, it simply won't cut it (yet).

Most the reviews I've read list the lack of pivot tables as one of Numbers better features. A lot of people really hate pivot Tables. I think they only really work for the person creating the document and not for those reading it.

And remember folks you can save Keynote presentaions as Quicktime movies (beautiful quicktime moves) no need for PowerPoint ever.

What can I say?

I hope you Nancy-boy MAC lemmings enjoy using your elegant but wimpy iWork software while I pound out the "This refrigerator will be cleaned out every 2 weeks—NO EXCEPTIONS!" sign for the lunchroom here at work.

I'll be doing it in Microsoft's robust and mighty PowerPoint.

If you MAC girls can't keep up with the big dogs, stay on the porch. Sissies.

Your potential. Our passion.™

shiva 105:

I have been hoping that the next step for iWork is that Apple does integrate a new database application that is not FileMaker Pro. I have used FileMaker Pro for many years, and it's a great mature application. And yet it still frustrates me to this day, because it's as if it contains all this legacy code within it. There are so many parts of it that still looks like an OS 9 app! Have you seen the text fields with the vertical scroll bars? They still have OS 9 scroll bars! It drives me crazy!!!! I want an OS X database! I don't want to have to deal with OS 9 scroll bars everyday that I'm entering data in my database.

I'm sure a lot of this has to do with the fact that FileMaker is also a Mac and Windows application. This has caused FileMaker great success as a full featured cross-platform database, but it many ways I believe it has stifled its development to take advantage of OS X-only technologies.

I am not trying to be negative about FileMaker Pro -- it is a successful product on the Mac and Windows side and has it's place in the marketplace. But I'm HOPING that Apple will develop a new database application for iWork "for the rest of us".

What would this new database -- probably called "Data" or "Cards" -- be like? First, it would be easier for newbies to set up a database than FileMaker. It's templates for starter databases would not be as bland-as-Windows'-templates as FileMaker but rather would have the panache of all the templates in the iWorks package. Second, it would have the power of FileMaker but a completely different layout design engine that would take advantage of the OS X interface.

Have you ever tinkered around with Interface Builder? How about RealBasic or SuperCard? These programs make it soooo easy to lay out an OS X-looking interface, the way an OS X application should look. But that's where the fun stops with building an application for a non-programmer like me. These programs are for programmers.

I see this new database application in iWork to have the power of FileMaker but the ease of interface building like Interface Builder, RealBasic or SuperCard. And that you can put together a quick and easy but powerful database that has the look of an OS X application, something FileMaker cannot do without jumping through hoops, and even then such an OS X look is clunky. In many ways, I see "Data" or "Cards" or "iCard" be the new generation of HyperCard.

This is the one application I long for. A database for the rest of us. A powerful but easy to design database with OS X interface building. Something you don't have to be a programmer to use.

MW: involved as in "sorry this post is so involved."

@ Zune Tang

Wow Zune, normally you would chime in with your comments the moment this news would have been posted. it took you over and hour to respond. Thats real sloppy.

Don't ya just love a great discussion!

I have been a Mac proponent for many years. I've also run a multi million dollar business with around 60 networked Macs all linked to a relational database and used for everything from accounting, to production control even had them hooked up to our electronic scales to capture production data on the fly.

I know very few people that actually use Excel for home use. I don't use Excel for home use. I use Quicken.

Every time a friend has a Mac question, they tend to come to me. Their question to me is always more or less the same: "Can I use a Mac for the Word files and Excel spreadsheets that I bring home from the office? "

The point is you don't have to be a "business or power user" to need to read an Excel spreadsheet that might have a few not-so-basic features. Try opening an Excel spreadsheet that has a basic macro.

Unfortunately, with Numbers in it's current version, these people are not going to be able to use all of their spreadsheets from the office.

For those who have been using Apple Works, Numbers is a great replacement and a leap forward.

For those who have have been using Excel, Numbers is an interesting alternative but not quite a replacement for Excel (yet).

As I said previously, I bought Numbers and intend to use it as much as possible. I as well love where they're going and can't wait for Numbers 3.0.


P.S. to Journo: You're right MDN did not bash Uncle Walt.

Love hearing from Zune Tang. A year now and nobody else in the world can even get a Zune.

My Ass. His Mouth.™

Petra said: I'm thinking of writing a book about running a business without using a single Microsoft product be Windows, Money, Project, Visio or Office...

It would probably be a great time for a book like this, considering that Apple is reappearing on the corporate radar. Let alone that Macs have been increasingly popular with college students for at least the last three years...

Also, in a recent quest for personal finance managing software, I found that many recent switchers are looking for a replacement for MS Money. Any info on personal finance managers would be welcomed as well...

The 80/20 rule seems to be the rule which Walt has ignored.

For fun, I wrote an Excel spreadsheet to solve Sudoku puzzles. It was an intellectual exercise. It does not convert to Numbers, but who cares. Clearly such an exercise belongs to the 20% camp.

The 80% camp includes switchers who believe they need a word processor and a spreadsheet (like MS Office?) to feel happy switching. Now they have it.

If you really need MS Office, you will know who you are and buy it.

John

With "Uncle Walt" showing up so regularly on Apple's Hot News page, he's in danger of being dissed as a Mac fanatic if he doesn't find some way to distance himself. It's sad reality facing most software reviewers that they simply must pander to the Windows crowd to make them feel better about their all-too-often lousy software.

Anyone that needs Word for grammer checking is an illiterate idiot in my opinion.

Office is the same old stuff that was appropriate for the mid-nineties. Then it had a wow factor. Now it's past it's sell by date.

I have a lot of experience in this area in that I am an "Excel Expert" at my place of work and a writer in my home life. I have also used cross platform versions of all of these tools since Word 5 for DOS was king and Claris Works was on the Mac.

My take is this:

- Keynote, which is a presentation tool is already yards better than Powerpoint ever was in it's wildest dreams. This is hardly a surprise when you consider what Apple's strengths are. Keynote is an "advanced user" product, and the best of class while remaining usable for beginners.

- Pages on the other hand is just not very good at all as a word processor. Ask anyone who writes for a living. The problem here is that 90% of everyone I have had occasion to teach Word to, or troubleshoot Word problems with users of Word, uses it as a word processor. Pages is just *not* a word processor, it's a page layout program that masquerades as a word processor. It's closer to something like MS Publisher in terms of the way you use it and the market it's aimed at. There is a big functional difference and a big metaphorical/usage difference.

Pages is IMO a "mid-level" product, but even if it had more advanced features it could never replace a word processor for people who's heads are still using that paradigm. It requires a complete shift of how you do everything and that just isn't going to happen anytime soon for the millions and millions of older writers out there, sorry.

- Numbers is surprisingly good in 1.0 version and I would describe it as not good for the pros, but good for everyone else. Not using pivot tables or validations on formulas does not indicate a "basic" user IMO, it indicates the average user. Only the advanced users could not get by with Numbers instead of Excel. Numbers is again, IMO a "mid-level" product with the potential to take over the whole ball game with a few more features added.

Lastly, I would like to agree with those that are saying that the MDN folks are going a little overboard with the "fan-boy/girl" stuff. I like the site, I come here every day, many times a day and read all the stories and comments and then read the actual linked stories, so you can't say I am not familiar with things.

That being said, the kind of "OMG! Everyone that doesn't like Apple products is an idiot!" stuff like we see above just makes for an unprofessional and silly experience. It puts this site in the same category as sites like Engadget or Gizmodo, where the content is interesting but you get the impression that the mind behind the site is about 14 years old, and the editors regularly stoop to criticising both the tech community and the contributors to their own web site.

Apple is great, (fantastic actually), but no-one is perfect and no-one is all things to all people. Let's get a bit more mature and wow everyone with our cool intellect and composure. Arguing every little criticism just makes one look desperate and unsure of oneself. If one truly believes in the quality of one's work, there is no need to defend it every minute of every day and from all comers.

Am I alone in being tired and bored of reading what Zune Tang has to say...?

Are you kidding this guy is hilarious. The only reason I come hear is to see his delusional ranting. Sheer comedy.

When this world figures out that Word, Excel or Pages documents are project files and NOT document files, we'll all be better. Sending a Word file makes as much sense as sending a video to someone as a iMovie Project file. Only if the document is intended to be edited buy multiple people, then it is appropriate to send a project file if you KNOW FOR SURE the other person as the compatible software. Otherwise, read-only files should be in an open source type format, such as PDF, TXT, MPEG, JPG, etc.

iWork is a nice piece of work. Keynote is off the charts. Numbers is great; it only lacks a way to give a cell or a range a permanent name. Pages, however, needs a fix, the sooner the better. If your document is too long, you can't use search and replace. Pages cranks up the CPU to 99% and about five or six minutes later finds it. (Search and replace in the same document in NeoOffice is instant.) This definitely needs to be fixed. When they fix that problem (I keep running Software Update), I can ditch Microsoft Office for good.

Of course, it isn't the end-all-be-all for everyone, but it could be for me.

Why does Zune Tang write "Mac" in all caps? Why would anyone get bent out of shape over his opinions? For that matter, why would anyone waste their time reading his posts? He isn't even attentive enough to get the name of the computer right--when it is only three letters long!

Does misspelling 'grammar' make somebody an illiterate idiot in your opinion?

MDN didn't criticize Uncle Walt, but Uncle Walt also didn't criticize iWork. He said that it wasn't as powerful or versatile as Office. It isn't. That isn't a criticism, it's just a statement of fact.

Apple included the features 90% of users will utilize. If you're one of the 10% who needs, say, pivot tables or a sophisticated mail merge or an equation editor or footnoting tools, you DO need Office.

10% is a lot of us. I haven't had enough time with Numbers yet, but I've been trying to use Pages for a long time and I keep finding myself going back to Word because Pages just doesn't cut it for so many things.