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As much as I hate IE, and would wish for it to be smitten from the entire space/time continuum, I don't think this EU case is a good idea. What modern day OS can possibly be shipped without a browser?

And you just know the EU will point this sharp stick right at Apple, if they win with Microsoft. Do you want the EU telling Apple what they can and can't preinstall on Macs? Because that's where this is headed.

A far better and simpler solution, IMO, would be to have IE mandated to show a "browser choice" webpage when it's run for the very first time. This would educate users about the existence of other browsers, and give them the option to download and use them right away. This solution would also be platform-independent, so Mac OS X and the various Linux flavors could likewise implement this solution rather easily via their default browsers, should the EU deem it mandatory to do so.

I really don't understand how people can "prefer" Firefox. The interface is still too clunky and slow. Things just don't behave or feel the way they should on a Mac. They've made progress, but not there yet.

Feb 09, 09 - 06:07 pm Comment from: Cubert

Wasn't Mozilla Godzilla's little kid who had a hard time doing the whole breathing fire thing?

i concur with Gab

IE is intrinsically intertwined with the morass known as the "Windows OS."

Apple's Safari, however, is a standalone application that is totally separate from the OS.

Regardless of market share, Apple is in the clear.

Feb 09, 09 - 06:21 pm Comment from: CourtJester

Looks like every computer sold in Europe will eventually have to have 3 or 4 browsers installed at the time of purchase.

Firefox might be the eventual leader of the pack.

Feb 09, 09 - 06:23 pm Comment from: cptnkirk

There are only two options here.

1. remove all browsers pre-shipping on any computer. That's self-defeating since there really is not way to find out about and download a browser except with a browser.

2. Require all shipping computers to have all browsers pre-installed for that system and let the end user decide.

I expect that the later will be the remedy.

As a web-developer, I hate IE. I'll be glad to see it gone. I can't wait for the next implementation of Safari. As far as implementing standards and moving forward with more features, especially in CSS, I find it a delight to use. Even the latest versions of IE cannot properly display png transparency. Safari does drop-shadows soooo easily.

Feb 09, 09 - 06:29 pm Comment from: Spark

@ Gabriel
As mentioned by Antitrust Attorney, IE is an integral part of Windows. You can add other browsers if you choose, but you cannot delete IE without breaking Windows. That's the problem.

...What modern day OS can possibly be shipped without a browser?"

O yeah? try uninstalling IE from any windows machine and you are to render your computer useless. IE and the "DLL HELL" are basic part of windows and if you remove it, your computer will crash.

@coolfactor: Because Firefox supports extensions that Safari doesn't. Plus some times work only in Firefox, not Safari. I use Safari the most, but Firefox for specific things.

That was supposed to say "some sites work" not "some times work."

I am no fan of MS. I use Firefox, even before switching to macs, I use Mail since dumping Entourage and Google Docs when I need other office apps.

Nonetheless, this suit is nonsense. Its nonsense to argue that MS or any other business in any other field should not be allowed to include certain components in its products.

Imagine if Toyota was compelled to include a Nissan engine or Sony was compelled to use Xbox hardware or Apple was compelled to use Roxio in its software. Consumers have a plethora of choices including my preference, the Mac OS. This suit is a complete waste of time

@SCY

When I can update my Windows XP virtual machine from Microsoft's website using Safari or Firefox, I'll agree with your position.

Not until then.

Feb 09, 09 - 08:05 pm Comment from: January 24, 1984

Software is organized thought. A method and means of approach. It's a special case, nothing like an engine choice. And the choice of that tool, whether involuntary, or not, becomes instantly intimate.

With no great insight, it is clear we are, too, becoming software.

Have a care.

Feb 09, 09 - 08:26 pm Comment from: Jubei

Hmmm. IE+ActiveX+.NET+ASP.... Anything to do with these at all?

WOW, Microsoft is just big in everything they do...

Look at those numbers...

Internet Explorer 59.5 percent,
Firefox 31.1 percent,
Opera 5.1 percent,
Safari 2.5 percent
Google Chrome 1.1 percent.

If you add up Firefox, Opera, Safari and Chrome they hold 39.8%

WOW! 4 Major players are behind Microsoft by 20%.

And Chrome is growing so fast its gonna surpass Safari by years end for sure.

You got to give credit for Microsoft for holding 89% of the OS and IE @ 60% (even if it sucks, they are doing quite well with those numbers).

I can see the same going for Apple that has Safari built in...

Opera and Firefox should do there own advertising or OS if they want to get in the pie.

Microsoft and Apple should be allowed to bundle their own browsers in the OS they make...

Feb 09, 09 - 10:37 pm Comment from: Hm...

@ MM

Many people miss the point: The problem is not that the browser is bundled. The problem is that MS is leveraging the market dominance of Windows and «distorting competition» to reduce/eliminate competitors in other market segments.

Feb 09, 09 - 10:47 pm Comment from: Jubei

@Hm...

"The problem is that MS is leveraging the market dominance of Windows and «distorting competition» to reduce/eliminate competitors in other market segments."

Oh yeah!

Feb 09, 09 - 11:24 pm Comment from: Hg Wells

Safari's my main browser. But I have been using Opera more and more often over the past months as my secondary browser. I only use Firefox when I'm absolutely forced to. Forced! Three goons force their way into my house and insist their site works on nothing else (unless I use Windows). And they're right! Their stupid site works no where else because they only employ developers who know nothing except how to hire the strong arms to show me horrifying photos of kittens (the cat kind) being held up! (I have one here somewhere.) They also ominously dangle a Windows PC across the room, within smelling distance, and threaten me with having to use it. What am I to do?! Naturally, I use Firefox. Then they leave to see someone else. There were three recent articles about this. I suspect the same has happened to others here, too.

Feb 09, 09 - 11:30 pm Comment from: ken1w

Apple includes a browser, but there is no harm done if the user deletes Safari and never uses it. It's like Disk Utility. IE in Windows is integrated into the OS in such a way that the user must use it for necessary tasks, such as Windows Update.

Also, Microsoft has been declared a monopoly, so it will have to operate under much greater scrutiny than Apple.

Gabriel:
"And you just know the EU will point this sharp stick right at Apple, if they win with Microsoft. Do you want the EU telling Apple what they can and can't preinstall on Macs? Because that's where this is headed."

SCY:
"Its nonsense to argue that MS or any other business in any other field should not be allowed to include certain components in its products."

MM:
"Microsoft and Apple should be allowed to bundle their own browsers in the OS they make..."



With all due respect (and I can understand why you think that) this is not what this case is about.
The following is what the case is about:


Antitrust Attorney:
"IE is intrinsically intertwined with the morass known as the "Windows OS."
Apple's Safari, however, is a standalone application that is totally separate from the OS.
Regardless of market share, Apple is in the clear."

Hybert:
"When I can update my Windows XP virtual machine from Microsoft's website using Safari or Firefox, I'll agree with your position."

Jubei:
"IE+ActiveX+.NET+ASP.... Anything to do with these at all?"

Spark:
"IE is an integral part of Windows. You can add other browsers if you choose, but you cannot delete IE without breaking Windows. That's the problem."

Viktor:
"try uninstalling IE from any windows machine and you are to render your computer useless."


Just read Spark & Viktor's comments and ask why would Microsoft do that?

Feb 09, 09 - 11:43 pm Comment from: AppleMacMan

@MM

"WOW, Microsoft is just big in everything they do...

Look at those numbers...

Internet Explorer 59.5 percent,
Firefox 31.1 percent,
Opera 5.1 percent,
Safari 2.5 percent
Google Chrome 1.1 percent.

If you add up Firefox, Opera, Safari and Chrome they hold 39.8%"

Laugh the hell out loud! Your numbers are COMPLETELY fabricated and made up. You definitely pulled those stats out of your rear end.

Firefox is currently around 22% and Opera HAS NEVER HAD EVEN A 1% MARKET SHARE MUCH LESS 5.1%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=0

But nice try at trolling though.

RE:: AppleMacMan

you sound like an idiot

I was quoting the above article in EU.

Not worldwide... But thanks for your link.... lol

OMG i just saw that link....
Microsoft Internet Explore 67.55%
Firefox 21.53%
Safari 8.29%
Chrome 1.12%
Opera 0.70%
Netscape 0.57%
Mozilla 0.07%


Add up all the browsers and MS is about twice as big once again... 68% = WOW

I didn't know MS was that big overall...

Feb 10, 09 - 12:08 am Comment from: Wade

- Another Irish Dude- right on. In addition, to the question of 'how can one download a browser without a browser', well, FTP has been around longer than HTTP, and access to anonymous FTP is easy. I still prefer to use it, but then, I'm an old geezer.

Feb 10, 09 - 01:35 am Comment from: Always Right

I'm a PC and I'm 4 and 1/2.

Feb 10, 09 - 03:12 am Comment from: AppleMacMan

@MM

You're right, my bad. I didn't know you were quoting the article which only speaks of Europe and now worldwide stats which are much different.

It looks like Opera may want to abandon the U.S. market and focus on Europe only as they've had a tremendous amount of more success. I highly doubt Opera would ever achieve a 5% market share in the U.S. in my lifetime.

Feb 10, 09 - 06:12 am Comment from: Road Warrior

Gosh, weren't they (MScum) supposed to unbundle the browser when they got convicted as a monopolist?

wait, you can't delete internet explorer off of windows?

.


...

what the crap is that?