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what a load of crap....microsoft can go to hell

Let them dream ...

Is this another rhapsody parodi that noone will notice gets broken until 2 mohths after the fact?

I'm sure that circumventing the DRM (by some sort of automated method) would violate the DMCA in some form or fashion. I don't see M$ wanting to step into those legal waters.

I just don't understand how Real, that other company who said they would do this, and possibly now, MS can legally get away with this. Apple should be able to sue all of them. Any legal eagles out there have any insight as to why they haven't?

rip it to a CD, then import.
just like you keep telling people to do.

No news here other than a M$ drone getting his facts wrong. What he probably means is that unprotected AAC tracks will be converted into WMA. Not Music Store tracks. He just didn't understand quite what he was talking about, poor thing.

I've been waiting for someone to announce that they would release a utility to allow the parsing of the .xml file that stores iTunes playlists into a format importable into another player's music organiser - it should be dead easy to do after all - I reckon that's what M$ have figured out what to do. It would mean you wouldn't lose your playlists if you changed musicplayers. Ijust can't believe it hasn't been done already. If I were M$, or Sony, it would have been my number one feature.

Still won't help the fact that they definitely will not be able to read AAC protected files though.

If you are competing with Itunes and the iPod why would you want iTunes to work on our media pc. Would you not put on one of those better products that has play for sure on your pc. I guess they don't have any confidence in their own products..

forget my last post..............too tired at work.

Fairplay-protected AAC are no-can-do on on does NOT Play-for-Sure.
Kate
MW: "southern"--gotta love us Southern girls!

Finally!!!

Well... I hope it's true. DRM stepping on Fair Rights use is such a pain. And Apple's use of DRM to lock iTMS customers into buying only iPods is problem for many (well... not for the fanatics on this board though).

I'd purchase from iTMS if I weren't being locked into the iPod - I have 3 of em... but I'd like the option of buying other players in the future.

Yeh-heh-hesssss . . . lots of people try to 'convert' things for other uses. For instance, when Richter got antsy about being Conan's bitch he tried to convert his brief glimpse of fame into an ongoing acting gig. Didn't work out so good.

Heyyy, come onnnn, it's all in good fat fun. I love Richter. I love all ass-kissers -- it's how I got my start.

And speaking of ass-kissing, there's also de whole conversion of Steve 'The Sasquatch' Ballmer from a passable salesman into an ass-kissing CEO. You remember sweaty Ballmer -- he's currently piloting de Zeppelin known as Microsoft to it's landing at a symbolic Lakehurst yet to be determined. Not working out so good, is it Fatboy?

Hey -- I keed de slow and immobile among us.

Don't they just wish it were that easy. And there really is a tooth fairy, Santa and Mrs. Claus, Leprechauns, etc.

What a huge can of worms if Mafiasoft were to actually hacks Apple's DRM. WOW!



BTW, Bill Gates is indeed the antichrist

Mac and PC guy. You're an idiot and don't know of what you speak. I can't believe you own 3 iPods and would say such crap. Obviously you've never used iTunes.

I wonder what legal grounds Apple could push to prevent circumvention of copy protected music?

You know we hear a lot of testostertone talk lately because of the expo, but it's all going to fall on deaf ears tommorrow when the king takes the stage and says...

"Oh just one more thing..."

FUSCK YOU MICROSOFT YOU AINTSHEET

Apple moved so darn fast, iPods, online music, viPods, downloadable movies that only now M$ and crew has caught up with competiting products, but Apple is already onto the new stuff.

Remember the Nano!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHA SUCKERS!!

To anyone stupid enough to purchase this device: Remember that asshole's name (John Starkweather)and who he works for (Microsoft) when the device doesn't work as advertised. Then we have a face, a name and a company to sue.

All of the content they are talking about will be subscription based and you will not own a thing.

On the other hand, whem you buy an iPod and purchase items on iTunes, you own that piece of media.

Boo… Microsoft spews more FUD

rstrb8r

If they're as good as they're sales-boy thinks they are, good for them--they'd deserve to succeed. I, however, will believe it when I see it.

I continue to believe that other makers should continue to innovate (or at least immitate) as much as they can. It can only mean improvements to iPods and Macs. I can't imagine switching away from my elegant combination of iPod and Mac OS X, but I think it's good for others to challenge Apple to innovate and stay ahead of the game. A lack of competition is a recipe for mediocrity.

MW: effort--"It is a valiant effort to unseat iPod--but keep trying!"

Crystal, advocating less restrictive DMR doesn't make him an idiot. You may think iTunes is the best software, as do I, but that doesn't mean you have to like the fact that apple ties them together exclusively. It is a good business strategy and doesn't bother me too much. FairPlay isn't too bad compared to other DRM but ideally none of them would exist.

Tommy-Uk, I think you are over estimating how much people care about their playlists. I constantly change and delete my playlists anyway so losing them by switching jukeboxes would be almost a non issue for me. I think most consumers would agree. I personally would miss the play counts and ratings but I bet most other people wouldn't care about those either. I think the hurdle to switching juke boxes is DRM and formats, plus there are no good reasons not to use iTunes, IMO.

Whats the problem with this???

Itunes converts WMA to AAC, so shy shouldn't windows convert AAC to WMA????

<rant>

Doesn't MDN repeatedly yammer on about how FairPlay *isn't* restrictive because tracks can be SO EASILY burned to CD and then re-ripped and used however you want?

Oh... now that they're talking about doing just that, it would be BIG NEWS. Now that MS suggests you actually DO what it takes in order to get out of the indentured servitude of iPod+iTunes+iTMS, it's suddenly a web of lies?

You once called me a warped, twisted PC Apologist. Well what are you all, but a bunch of warped, twisted Mac Apologists?!

</rant>

2 things:
1. Bambi frames the question about conversion in reference to "purchasing music" but she does not specify that the purchased music is from iTunes. It could be a purchased CD.
2. Jim only says that "it can be converted (referring to Bambi's term "purchased music". He does not clarify that it is iTMS purchases that can be converted AND he does not explain who's software is doing the conversion. He certianly implies that MS software is doing the conversion but it COULD be iTunes that is "converting" the purchased music by ripping a CD (see MTS's comment above) and importing the rip. That could be construed as "conversion".
Klunky, Kludgy conversion that most people won't bother with 'cause most people who own an MP3 player own and use an iPod. (as it should be)

MW=good
exactly what competition is

Mac & PC Guy, I don't exactly know what you mean by stepping on your Fair Rights when you purchase a song from iTMS.

iTMS provides a song and tells you up front where it will play, how many devices it can be on at one time, and how many times you can burn it to the exact same playlist. Notice that they tell you this up front, so you are not confused about your rights. You are basically signing a contract when you purchase the song in that way. It's not any different than when you buy software except that the rules are much more relaxed. If you want it on more CDs, you change your playlist. If you want to put it on a different computer, just deauthorize a different one. Do you really have a need to have a song that you purchased on more than 5 computers - unless you are illegally sharing that music?

In essence, you can burn an unlimited number of CDs containing that song (you can't legally do that with a CD you purchase) you can put it on up to 5 computers, and you keep it forever. These rules are a good portion of the reason that Apple can sell the tunes for $.99. Those restrictions were no doubt put in place by record companies, so Apple agreed.

So, care to give some details about how your rights are stomped on?

SJR, DMCA applies to little people, i.e. any individual or small business who can't afford to defend themselves in court against the US government and a slew of expert testimony.

Nathan, iTunes converts unprotected WMA files. MS is saying their new gear will convert protected AAC tracks.

Crystal--

How can you say that someone who has three iPods has never used iTunes? You are aware that iTunes is the program that is used to feed an iPod, right?

Also, why is he an idiot just for disagreeing with your preference? Zealotry can get in the way of logic and reasoning sometimes.

PC Apologist, I think that you are missing one key point. As the owner of the FairPlay DRM, Apple has the legal right to create software that can convert from AAC using FairPlay DRM to MP3. I don't know that MS would.

I think you need to go to an encyclopedia and look up "indentured servitude" and understand what it really means. When you buy songs from iTMS, I believe that they tell you right up front what you can & can't do with your songs. If you want to convert them to MP3 on a CD, then load those to another player, good for you. You made a choice when you bought them.

When you bought that vinyl REO Speedwagon album, you knew it would play on your Close & Play Phonograph. Now it won't play on your CD player. I guess you'd consider this a ripoff because you now must either convert it somehow or buy it again from another venue?

Considering the recent work with Real, perhaps it's Harmony.

If Apple was smartthey would consider allowing alternate music stores to work with the iPod. The smart move would be to incorporate the stores into the iTunes interface so you could choose your preferred store. That way Apple would still sell iPods and actually it would persuade people to continue to use iTunes even more.

I mean really if we believe the premise that iTUnes is just a platform to sell iPods, and not a revenue generator in itself, there would be no reason to not try this.

itunes on pc only converts non-drm wma files to aac on only on windows machines. apple doesn't offer this for itunes on mac os x you have to use a 3rd party app to do that. i can't remember the name of the app, but it seems to work ok. once again only on non-drm wma files.

Jimbo -

Right. "Good for you" if you want to rip your music and use it another way. That seems to have been MDN's position as well, when people like myself complain that Apple's scheme locks out competition.

We're not talking about trying to play vinyl REO Speedwagon on a CD player. We're talking about vinyl REO Speedwagon that you bought at Tower Records only playing on your Tower Records turntable. And your Tower Records turntable not playing any records that you bought anywhere else.

But now that Microsoft seems ready to take MDN's (lousy) advice and provide a system to easily rip and convert their iTMS content for use on non-iPod devices, MDN is offended, as are all the cheerleading sheep in this forum. You can't cry out of one side of your mouth that Apple's not locking you in, and then cry out of the other side when someone wants to exercise the choice you just said they have.

iTunes can burn a CD, right? Any Windows MP3 program can convert that to an MP3 or WMA. Task done. Is it a straight conversion? no, but it's done.

what a load of crap....microsoft can go to hell

---

MS is going to strip the DRM and then re-DRM as WMA?

Wow.. what a joke


I guess they wouldn't mind sharing the Windows API with the Open Source community then, hmm? Fair is Fair (play..)

"...you knew it would play on your Close & Play Phonograph..."

man, did I ever love my Close 'N Play - circa 1968 - listening to the Monkees and munchin' on a giant Marathon bar...

I'm getin' all misty

You mean I can play the music I bought anywhere I want? How dare they! Can we sue?

"We're talking about vinyl REO Speedwagon that you bought at Tower Records only playing on your Tower Records turntable. And your Tower Records turntable not playing any records that you bought anywhere else."

Pc Apologists are you sure about this, I don't buy any music I repeat any music from the music store and I have 2000 track in iTunes and most of those I bought from virgin, Tower Records, Independent labels, got free songs from iCompostions.com and so on and all of them seem to play fine on my iPod. maybe I've got some special powers. Now PC apologist even if i visited any other online music stores ask yourself a couple of questions, do any of them even proivde support for the machintosh so you can download their music? but can PC users download iTunes and get any music they want into iTunes (except DRM WM files)? if you answered No and Yes, then I guess the whole argument is moot but if you answered otherwise then we all seriously need to somehow get you to a doctor.

progenty:
Dammit, why did you have to conjure up the thought of the Marathon bar? Now my diet is shot all to hell as I jones for that chocolatey goodness.

MacDailyNews isn't talking about DRM issues here, they're calling this Microsoft A-hole Starkweather Sales Slime a liar, and rightly so:

MDN, "Oh, what a tangled Web? Perhaps somebody knows or can point us to the information, because this would be a big story - if it were true."

Death to Microsoft!!!

that Microsoft guy must be feeding chickens (makes rapid hand gesture from chicken feed area (pelvis)

I used to do it like that, but the cracked corn really chafes.

>>Crystal wrote: (Mac&PC;Guy)You're an idiot and don't know of what you speak.

(sigh) Have a nice day to you as well Crystal.

---

Jay & TheConfuzed1: Thank you for chiming in as the voice of reason.

>>Jimbo wrote: iTMS provides a song and tells you up front where it will play

Granted.

>PC Apologist responded: We're talking about vinyl REO Speedwagon that you bought at Tower Records only playing on your Tower Records turntable.

... and there it is right there!

---

Keep in mind that when we purchase from iTMS, it's not the delivery mechanism we're purchasing. It's not the ability to play songs on iTunes we're purchasing.

When we purchase from iTMS, we are definitely NOT purchasing the right to play content on strictly iPods.

Try rethinking your position from that POV - as opposed to arguing from the POV of Apple trying to guarantee future iPod sales.

G'Day!

Buy music from iTMS. You get 7 CD burns. Burn to CD. Rip into WMP11. Immediately gets WMP DRM'ed and now you might not be able to burn anymore. It's like a roach motel for your music.

MW: front. PlaysForSure is a front for the RIAA.

PCA & MPCG,

Can Apple sell songs thru iTMS WITHOUT DRM?

>(PT Barnum wrote) MW: front. PlaysForSure is a front for the RIAA

Just as Fairplay is a front for:

"You are going to buy another iPod if you ever want to use your iTMS purchases again. We've got our fanboys preaching the hacks, but we know you won't do it because its an amazing hassle, just as we planned it would be. ka-ching$$$, here's your receipt, we know you'll come again" --- Apple Store

Bloke wrote: Can Apple sell songs thru iTMS WITHOUT DRM?

Is your point really a question or are you unaware? Post again, please.

And if you trying to imply that we are arguing completely against DRM, then reread all the posts you are trying to comment on because you would be missing the point.

MPCG,

Okay, is it possible that Apple can only legally sell songs (the Big4's IP) thru iTMS, with only one [1] DRM scheme — namely 'FairPlay' — and no others.

[I'd purchase from iTMS if I weren't being locked into the iPod - I have 3 of em... but I'd like the option of buying other players in the future.]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you want to be able to use your purchased iTMS songs on ANY player YOU 'choose'. Fair enough.

Maybe Apple was 'allowed' their download service — because the Big4 NEVER thought it would 'catch on'. Maybe THEY restricted the movement of tracks 'between' players. Maybe Apple is selling within the confines of their contract. One music file DRM format per one player.

Do you know that they are holding back — to piss off their customers —deliberately?

HELLO??

Anyone home?

Yes.. songs downloaded from iTunes CAN be played on any device.. just burn a CD and re-rip into WM format

Mac & PC Guy,

When you buy tunes from iTMS you know where you can use them and where you can't use them. Same goes for Real, Wal-Mart, Napster, and any others.

What is the problem? If you are afraid of tie-in buy CD's.

Do you understand what I just wrote? That doesn't make me an Apple apologist, just a logical person.

Apple is just using the script the labels wrote.

Bloke:

First off... I'd like to give credit where it's due. Your post should be a model to many others on this board - no personal attacks... just discussion of ideas. Thank you!

>Maybe THEY [[Big4 record companies]] restricted the movement of tracks 'between' players. Maybe Apple is selling within the confines of their contract. One music file DRM format per one player.

I think it's more likely that the record companies were happy with the steps Apple took to legitimize downloaded music and rewarded them with their business.

It's Apple's administration of the DRM that I am at odds with. They've done a terrific job in everything but that. Of course, my point-of-view is from a consumer standpoint.

Apple's goal is to make money - quickly and lots of it! They don't have to license their DRM out, and they're making gobs of profits by keeping all their earned market share to themselves. That's great for the business!

But it's terrible for the consumer - well, at least the consumer who doesn't want to be tied to Apple.

Don't get me wrong! I am an avid Apple fan! But, that doesn't mean I'm comfortable being locked in to Apple. Every iTMS purchase is a $1 more guaranteeing Apple future iPod sales and a reduction in the consumer's propensity to purchase from the competition.

In the long run, that is dangerous for consumers!


-

...and once again, thanks for your post! It's refreshing that people can discuss substance rather than the bulk of what goes on in here.

>Big Al: Do you understand what I just wrote?

I'll understand yours if you promise to understand mine.

---

>When you buy tunes from iTMS you know where you can use them and where you can't use them. Same goes for Real, Wal-Mart, Napster, and any others.

True. But with Real, Wal-Mart, Napster, and any others (than iTMS)... you aren't being locked in to using hardware from one particular company. You have options.

My point is that even though iPod is my player of choice - of which I have 3G, Nano, and Shuffle - I don't want to lock myself in to buying only Apple iPod in the future. I will probably buy another iPod, but I want to make that decision myself when the time comes.

---

>If you are afraid of tie-in buy CD's.

I do. My collection is above the 1100 mark - ranging from jazz to classical to rock to hiphop.

Since Apple is in business to make money, I'm betting they want mine. Buy from iTMS rather than from Tower Records.

Apple is most definitely not a"if you don't like it, go buy from my competitot" type of company.

I think the real issue here is that there are currently several competing DRM standards. If I buy a record, it will play on any record player. If I buy a CD, it will play on any CD player. Same goes for cassettes and DVDs. The problem with ITMS and all its competitors is that when you buy music from them, you are locked into a proprietary DRM mechanism and, by extension, a limited range of portable players. With Apple, in particular, you are locked into the use of one brand of MP3 player - the iPod. If I invest $1000 in a music collection (which I have done many times over) I should at least have a reasonable expectation that that music can be played on my choice of player. iPod may be best at present, but who knows what devices will appear in the future. This option does not currently exist and until it does we will continue to hear complaints about the licensing of downloaded music. Either that, or online music provides need to seriously reduce their costs - an ITMS album at $9.99 is already only marginally cheaper than a CD, despite having significantly worse audio quality, minimal distribution costs and no manufacturing costs. Factor in the restrictive use of that music compared to a CD, and you can see why people complain.

Incidentally, those who recommend burning an AAC track to CD and then re-ripping in MP3 or AAC format are failing to understand that very real loss in audio quality that such a process incurs. Every time you compress you lose quality. If you expand and then recompress then you seriously degrade the already marginal quality of the ITMS music track. It's very much a second-best workaround and not something we should accept as the solution.