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I wish I worked in the semiconductor industry.

National Semiconductor rules. I'm going to be buying all my semiconductors from them.

Must be great to work for National right now. That is a generous gift.

Great! I wonder how long it will be before the employees start putting porn on them?

That ought to push Apple's iPod sales way beyone analyst expectations. Not to mention the cash.

$2,541,500.00

Here's an interesting article about how Apple has its iPods made:

http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/index.cfm?NewsID=14915

It's a massive plant in China that houses 200,000 workers. They work 15 hour days and are not allowed visitors. Isn't outsourcing wonderful? Let's hear it for the bottom line!

Gives.. Equips.. I think those are the operative words. Sounds like doublespeak and the IPods are still the property of NS. Especially as they are talking about company applications for the devices....


Just a thought....

nick, thx for the link. some scary shit. Unfortunately, it doesn't come as a big surprise. We live in some truly fuckdup times.

Nick - Interesting article.

Seems like China needs to sort out its employment laws amongst other things.

Low salaries are not necessarily bad if the cost of living is comparable. However 15 h work days is a bit much. I haven't done that since grad school.

I wonder if Apple will get labeled like Gap and Nike did with protesters outside the stores? Steve won't like that - it will ruin the asthetics.

@Nick:
The reason they are made in China is because companies in the U.S. can't compete with the low wages, shabby conditions and crappy job incentives (or non-incentives) of China. This is not Apple's problem. Many companies and many industries do the same thing, and it is a reflection on China not the U.S. This is why people are after China for its lack of human rights, and businesses cry foul for unfair competition.

Hard to believe you just are hearing about this.

A security guard told the Mail reporters that the iPod shuffle production lines are staffed by women workers because "they are more honest than male workers".

Ain't that the truth.

Nick,

By our standards, those conditions are bad, by Chinese standards, they are very lucky people and have great jobs. The 15 hr work day stuff is generally BS, BTW.

"Hard to believe you just are hearing about this."

cute remark, but...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

The really distressing thing about that story (to me) is that Apple owns the MP3 player market. There is no need to stoop to this level to stay competitve and viable.

I'm all for making profit, but at what cost? Which is better: supporting the USA economy and making 25% profit margins or supporting the Chinese economy and making 100% profit margins?

Nick's arguments are better than yours.

period.

When you have a population of over a billion, of course wages and conditions are going to be low. Most of these people would be thankful they have a job (and it sounds like the proportion of their wage needed for living expenses ain't that different to ours). Comparing the Chinese labor market to those of the West is, well, apples and oranges.

people like you. Good intentions are no excuse for stupidity. Admit it, this is just about you showing off on this thread how "good" and "just" you are--yech! Your philosophy would result in Apple going bankrupt, Chinese workers losing all they had built over the last 20 years, and prices in the US going higher for lower income workers. Of course, you know all that, and really don't give a cr*p as long as you get to pose as a well-meaning citizen of the world.
Maria

here's another more recent link:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060612-7039.html

How much more would a "made in the USA" iPod have to cost for Apple to make a reasonable profit?

As troubling as the worker conditions are for manufacturing jobs in China, I'm far more worried about the lack of manufacturing jobs in the USA.

"Admit it, this is just about you showing off on this thread how "good" and "just" you are--yech!"

Wow, so you're grossed out that I am worried about the outsourcing of American jobs? If you're a citizen of the USA, maybe you take your anti-American ideas and get the hell out.

"Your philosophy would result in Apple going bankrupt, Chinese workers losing all they had built over the last 20 years, and prices in the US going higher for lower income workers."

...so you are saying that if we outsource as many American jobs that we can, it will keep prices down for low income American workers. Brilliant.

Wow, we've gotten off topic here.

@Nick:
The loss of manufacturing jobs is a REALLY big problem.
BUt this has been happening since the late 1980's.

Let's just say Apple pulls out of China for manufacturing. They can't come back to the US. There aren't any real factories left.
What ever is still here has ancient equipment.

So they have to go to another country and those countries have lower salary scales than the US and Europe.

You can't have ONE company change the world, it's a great idea but it doesn't work.

The salary Apple pays is low by US/Western standards but relative to the foreign marketplace it's high, really.

The only way for this to change is two possiblities:
1) ALL companies start paying higher - not going to happen since that's one of the advantages

2) The Foreign country starts to develop a middle class that seeks/demands more and the standards grow from within. This is really how it happens, it's nice to think you force one company to pay so much more that it's obscene by the local standards but that doesn't change an entire country.

Now, lets get back to the original thread - about National Semiconductor

Lets get this straight right now!!

I'm not "Nick".

But it's nice to see a fellow troll regardless.

Stir up hell NICK!!!

nickie dickie, hehehehe old habits die hard.

It's a massive plant in China that houses 200,000 workers. They work 15 hour days and are not allowed visitors. Isn't outsourcing wonderful? Let's hear it for the bottom line!

-----

Um, ever heard of the SLAVE TRADE? America's built on the backs of underpaid, low skill workers. What's your point?

@Nick
- Actually your statement:
"so you are saying that if we outsource as many American jobs that we can, it will keep prices down for low income American workers. Brilliant."

Is correct.

The prices at Walmart would be two to three times higher if they didn't FORCE price down by using off shore manufacturing.

So for the basics that are found at Walmart- it is saving money for low income workers who would have paid much, much more for the same items if not for foreign manufacturing.
The problem is long-term - where are the jobs going to come from if not for manufacturing?

@Nick
- Are you the same posted on the "Norway Gives Apple Until June 21 to Change iTunes Store Terms"?

If you are - you just advocated Apple should reduce it's prices for iPods/ Computer Hardware.

Guess what - where do you think those reductions are going to come from? It's coming from Labor.


If @Nick isn't the same poster I appologize.
And if you're not - here's an example of why Companies are using foreign/off-shore factories.

Nick -- Stop living like a horse with blinders on. Try and, you know, see the whole picture!

Maria is right -- you're only trying to feel like a "hero", but most of us on this board already know what you're pointing out. And Matrix3 is correct -- those wages and standards are actually bery good: FOR CHINA!!!!!!

So, Apple's basically still playing the good citizen, at least as much as it can whilst staying competitive.

Here's your word for the day: Context.

Look it up.

Nick's an asshole.

And how many employees got stock options?

Ok, I've been thinking about this for a while and talking with my friends about it, and I've got it.

Apple should offer a "made in the USA" iPod. It would cost more, maybe $50 or even $100 - whatever Apple could manage while making a reasonable profit. It would be offered so that people who are lucky enough to be able to afford the extra cost AND who wanted to support domestic jobs enough would have a choice.

I never suggested that we pull out of China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man), but it would be so cool if people could choose to buy "made the USA" electronics if they had the money and the notion.

This isn't about hate, racism, clasism, whatever. I just resent it when I don't even have a choice to support my local economy. I'll bet you anything that if a "made in the USA" iPod was made available for $50 or even $100 extra, people would buy it. I would. I think that many well-to-do people with big shiny SUVs and American flag stickers would too.

Nick,

Anybody opening his mouth just based on an article without proper background given in it, should first go back to college and learn a bit about reading up the facts and checking them before taking them for true.

For many years now, I've been of the opinion that, to judge a country, it's rules and regulations, it's habits and it's culture, you have to be there and experience it. I've done that ever since I've been working, in Singapore, Scotland, the Netherlands, Turkey, USA and now Thailand.

It opened my eyes from the very first day being overseas!

Now, for China, been there many times, Longhua, indeed close to Hong Kong, is one of those places where income is very low according to our standards, but:
in a place where a meal cost less then USD 0.10
where most people live with all their family in one house
(sharing the cost of living and reducing it 10-fold!)
where income is still shared between all family-members
(often 4 or 5 earning income supporting a total of 10 or more people)
where an apartment is not more than a 2 room flat with a toilet/shower but considered to be sufficient by all standards

US$ 50,00 is a very generous salary!

Shanghai is a far more expensive area to live, exactly the reason why the difference in salary is so big.
Now, most of these people are also not bothered for paying tax. Across Asia, most people are tax-exempt. That is a simple measure of the government to keep income low and their country competitive.

Another thing overlooked, even in countries like Thailand, where income has a minimum by law of USD 4.69 p/day in Bangkok (but lower in the provinces!), companies are still using labour from neighbouring countries because they are paid even lower still! How incredible does that sound to you?

It is not only facts, it is a lot more that you have to look at. All these people are working hard yes, but 15hours a day does not happen without extra-time payments and other conditions. For them to have meals and housing is a luxury that provides a net salary that is high by local standards.

Visited Mektec here in Thailand 2 weeks ago. Guess what? Only female workers there. Nothing else because they are better skilled and more precise at their work. (Mektec is an electronics parts assembler)

Some more, why not.

Construction industry, always a temporary construction site, here is where you find all the odd-labor, the people that work for absolute minimum wages.

Now, their housing normally consists of written-off 40ft containers, doors and windows cut out and stacked 3 high with platforms inbetween.
No aircon, 10 people per container, shared toilet/shower, etc. etc.

These are local building companies, working with local standards! Are these workers in a clean environment, with that wage, housing paid for, worse off than those construction workers? Nope, by far the better pick is the factory.

You can't imagine living in a room with 4 other people on a US 50,00 wage, but you also can't imagine that you can buy a meal outside for US 0.10 or less. It's all about the complete picture, not just one or two parts of it.

Luc:

I appreciate your mature and polite tone, but I'm more interested in preserving American jobs than I am in Chinese labor reform. It's really none of my business how China decides to set its laws.

I would like to have the option of paying extra to get USA-made goods though. It's like when I go to the grocery store: I can buy chicken eggs at $1.25 a dozen that come from hormone-injected chickens that are raised de-beaked in small cages, or I can (and do) buy chicken eggs for $3.75 per dozen that come from chickens raised on a farm, roaming around and raised drug-free. I don't have to be smug about it - crap, they're just chicken eggs - but I like being able to support business done well.

I would feel really good about paying an extra $100 for an iPod that was made in the USA, since I'm fortunate enough to be able to afford it. I think many other Americans would feel good about it too. It might not seem to make economic sense in the short-term, but I believe that every little bit helps.

Hey NIck,

You're either up late or awake early, either way, nice to see a response.

I agree on your eggs-example as such, but preserving American jobs by getting production back to the USA shows a very limited view to me.
For me it is almost certainly a mistake of USA-government... The government has to provide a framework that pushes the economy in a certain direction and maintaining it's healthiness and growth. Now, for a highly developed country like the USA, that direction (bar some specialized industries) is away from production, there is no escaping from that.

The USA, like many other 'first world countries', have developed into a service-sector only economy. All development, all logistics, all design, basically all high-paid jobs are done in the USA, outsourcing the low-paid ones to other countries.
If the government has a deficit in low-wage labour versus low-paid jobs, then there has been a structural mistake in economic & social development.
How can you solve that? Manufacturers can't by themselves! Though you seem a bit idealistic (nothing bad at all), most of your country's people will not or can not be like that. So what's going to happen? No need to explain that I guess.

The USD 100,00 that you like to spend extra on a USA-produced iPod would be better spent donating it on scholing-projects for those low-wage job-seekers, providing an opportunity to move up the ladder.

Fact is that the USA-government has dropped the ball on that. They've cut back on scholing while low-wage jobs disappeared. Instead of scholing they've tried to close the borders, but in an international community, where worldwide trade is common practice even for small manufactures, as a country, you can't do that anymore without getting punished.

Fair practice would mean open border for trade so that all countries have a fair chance to get work for their people to earn proper living. Again, the USA like many other countries easily forget about it and even at this moment they are still cutting back on education-budgets and all, unwilling to solve the real problems behind all this.

I am more of a realist, work with what you have and not with what you like to have. Seen people all around the world, somehow making ends meet. Asia opens your eyes in many ways, community still means community here.

Read up on the King of Thailand if you like. He brought a lot of good values and ideas to Thailand exactly doing that, working with what is available. Promoting small scale, self sufficient economics. Thai people first, promoting/developing it's roots, it's strengths.
Very inspirational man, very interesting read on his life.

Cheers,
Luc

Lots of crybaby, yellow belly libs posting. 'Wahhh, the government won't solve my problems, waaah, I am a vicitm of eveybody and everything, waahhh.'

Goddamed cry babies. You candyasses have no idea whatsoever what hardship is.

try me...

From my (English) point of view, your whole "buy American" campaign is quite laughable.

Firstly, could American factorys make products any better than countries in other parts of the world?
Er, possibly not. Then the reputaton of US made, more-expensive products which often break down would drive people to seek out products made it other countries.

Remember, people buy Japanese cars because they are far more reliable than American ones - this is why GM and Ford are can't sell enough cars to make good profits (that, and welfare packages demanded by the unions which the companys can't match any more).

Would the bosses of the companys making the products in the US pay good wages to attract US workers?
Er, probably not. They'd just pay their workers the minimum wage, so that they can make as much profit as if the product was made abroad.
And of course, if you paying minimmum wage, your going to attract and employ a largly black/hispanic workforce, which is going to attract more people into America from Mexico/Porto Rico/Cuba, etc. Illegals?

As Luc said, America operates on a 'service industry' basis and no longer has the infrastructure to operate a manufacturing industry...

Nick,

Got your point,

So you are now no longer buying any stuff that is made by slave-labor in communist China?

If you do, you are to blame for this situation, not Apple.

his argument is still better than yours.

Hmm. I think it's funny to hear people (especially moronic bigoted Brits) slamming off on America as not having any industrial base anymore. You do realize that a goodly number of those Japanese cars are built in the U.S, right? You do realize that a lot of manufacturing takes place on a local level with car shops, fabrication shops, and so forth? If you want something done custom, where do you go? You either build it yourself (American ingenuity) or you pay someone else to do it (American ingenuity). You can't buy it online or overseas.

You do know that Glad (for just one example) makes all their stuff in America, and so does Wahl, right? As far as American car quality, you do know that Cadillac is pretty much near the top, right? And you have seen the latest Mustangs and Chargers, right? (Ford is dead and so is Dodge -- right.)

Sure, there are some problems but the biggest one is the huge tax burden that Americans and businesses face. I'm talking Medicare + SSN + insurance. That cost is what makes American businesses uncompetative. Europeans are also finding this out. So don't smirk, you idiotic Brit. Your businesses are just as outsourced (hello Cambridge electronics)!

Nick,

These don't look like American jobs to me. They look like Chinese jobs. America with it's rampant unionism cannot compete anymore on the world stage. Just ask GM about that. If you are not going to get rid of the unions then trade barriers are your only way out. No wonder Unionists are anti-globalization.

Asian workers deserve jobs just as much as American workers do. If you don't like goods made off shore then buy American. Good luck finding electronic goods made in the USA. Good luck finding any quality good made in the USA at a competitive world price. Americans will not buy junk at the world price even if it is made in the USA. Americans will not buy good stuff at a higher price just because it is made in the USA. Check out the nearest Walmart if you don't believe me.

Something is terribly wrong with your system if you can't find decent American made goods at the world price. Complaining about off shore workers making less money per hour is just ludicrous. Just anti-globalization bullshit.

China Guy!

You silly prick.
You think they're LUCKY!!
Wake up man!
They have the choice between starvation and slave labour.
There's enough information about the conditons of Chinese factory workers on and off line.
Read it please!
I can't believe you're so cruel - I hope just misguided.

Big Al:

"Good luck finding electronic goods made in the USA."

That is exactly what I'm talking about here. I just wish I had the choice to buy an American-made iPod. I'm not talking about trade restrictions or boycots, just choice. American-made iPod, $399. Chinese-made iPod, $299. They could include an American flag engraving on the back of the American-made one, and put a recording of Hendrix playing the Star-Spangled Banner in there too.

When we outsource our factory jobs to China, it doesn't magically improve the kinds of jobs available in America. Many folks who would have jumped at the chance for a factory job enlisted in the military (out of desparation), and ended up in Iraq.

I work at a boring insurance company, so I didn't get a cool iPod. Oh, well. At least I was able to buy one with the $27,000 profit-sharing bonus I got this year...

Well, maybe I should read all the comments and see how far off-topic everyone has drifted before posting my smartass little thing about the benefits of working for a boring company. Don't I feel like a tool.

Anyway, to all those that claim that the wages being paid to iPod assemblers are actually good for the region: do we have statistics to back that up?

LordRobin:

LOL

no, that's totally cool, bring it back on-topic. I only brought it up in here since I figured MDN wouldn't cover it, and this was the closest topic available.

Sounds like a sweet bonus you got, you could easily afford a "made in the USA" iPod!

=)

Gil Amelio turned around National Semiconductor before he spent his 500 days at Apple.

LordRobin,

Statistics? Just look at the trade-imbalance between China and the USA. Should tell you more than statistics...

Charko, you've been there to see it for yourself? Yes, having a roof, even shared with 40 others, in (according to the pictures) what is not much worse/similar/even better than a US-Marines barrack, having daily food, having a job that pays 30-fold of what they would earn living and working on their family's farm, having a fairly light job (an iPod nano weighs,...close to nothing), yes, they are very lucky.
Don't talk from your lazy computer chair knowing the world and look up the word 'perspective' before you start insulting people.

MW: Problems...you can expect some talking like that...

And to all those, that would be including Nick, who want American-built products, just make sure you include:

Intel, AMD, Motorola, NS, IBM...etc. because all those IC's are made in Malaysia, Singapore, Thailand and....guess what?.....China.

Unions as mentioned before by Big Al, are supposed to protect laborers, but all they did was killing off the last production-facilities because they where, and still are, just as greedy as the employers they're fighting.
Unions are fighting for their own cause, not their union-members.