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Wed, Jan 07, 2009 - 08:19 PM EST  —  AAPL: 91.01 (-2.01, -2.16%)  |  NASDAQ: 1599.06 (-53.32, -3.23%)

Nokia wants Apple-style cut of handset revenues
Monday, December 10, 2007 - 11:35 AM EST

"Nokia, the world's biggest maker of mobile telephones, plans to imitate Apple and seek a cut in user revenues generated by its future devices, according to the Finnish group's chief on Sunday," Monsters and Critics reports.

"Interviewed by the newspaper Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung, chief executive Olli-Pekka Kallasvuo confirmed the company had an eye on network operators' charges for new data-based services," M&C reports.

"'When it involves mobile phones, we'll be staying with our existing business model, which means getting paid for the device itself. But where we provide new services, a turnover share is entirely possible,' he said," M&C reports. "Nokia has sought to position itself as an inventor of new services. Several days ago it unveiled Comes With Music, a service on certain phones that can download titles from the Universal Music catalogue for one year."

Full article here.

[Thanks to MacDailyNews Reader "Mike in Helsinki" and Linux Guy And Mac Prodigal Son" for the heads up.]

Luck has it that long-time MacDailyNews reader and frequent link contributor "Mike in Helsinki" also happens to be a 14-year veteran of Nokia who was active in several divisions. "Mike in Helsinki" writes to us via email:

Nokia proposes to give away 100 songs tops over a one-year period to folks who download them via their mobile phone (i.e. a mobile phone-centric model versus a PC/Mac-centric model). [These tracks will be] laden with technologically inferior Windows DRM, in cooperation with one catalog so far - Universal, whose clueless CEO Morris only some days ago professed that Apple was trying to suck the value out of the music industry by pricing music at $9.99 an album, and working with a company that time after time after time screws its partners and alienates consumers, For Sure™.

This is like the blind leading the clueless onto a burning ship...

History has STILL not taught hapless Nokia anything about Microsoft's utter value-destroying, customer-hostile, partner-doublecrossing history.

Two summers ago I sat across the table from a very senior Nokia executive and told him that in my opinion Apple would use its music success to be the battering ram in other endeavors in the future, like mobile telephony. I told him that that all the strengths that Nokia has ... in portable consumer electronics design, global manufacturing and logistics, customer understanding, and the intricacies of mobile phones were competencies Apple either already had or could quickly replicate in short order.

My thesis to this Senior Vice President was that Apple learned how to design, manufacture, distribute and sell mass-market consumer electronics in their iPod business. Apple also leaned how to retail and merchandise this kind of product through its Apple Store experiences and was quickly building other distributor channels. Apple had the tools, or knew where to get the remaining tools, to match mighty Nokia's strengths.

I suggested to him that Nokia, on the other hand, would find it nearly impossible to catch up to Apple's strengths in the same manner that Apple could match Nokia's. Nokia depends on a mobile phone-centric model for things that require a PC/Mac-centric model, like music and video.

My point to him was that Nokia has no computer OS to wrap around like Apple does. I told him that they were fatally flawed in dealing with a company - Microsoft - that has an unenvied track record in failure at every single endeavor they try except their PC OS business, Office productivity suite and maybe servers. I told him that Microsoft is a lying, double-crosser of the first water.

I warned him that Apple, more than any company on earth, understood customer friendly software and hardware design, keenly understood the unsustainable business model weaknesses of the music, video and mobile telephony world ... and that Steve Jobs was on a crusade to TEAR DOWN THESE UNSUSTAINABLE MODELS AND REBULD THEM TO BE CUSTOMER FRIENDLY. He has done it in the music industry, he is doing it in the computer industry, and he is setting the stage to do it in the video/TV industry.

I flatly told him that Nokia should considered Apple to be a very serious threat.

With a straight face, this SVP told me that I was hallucinating.

He proposed that iPod and iTunes was an exception, and would be eclipsed by a Nokia/Microsoft partnership in short order. Why wouldn't he believe that? The largest maker of consumer devices in the world teamed up with a company that has 95% market share of the computer OS business [seems like a sure thing].

He further pointed out to me that Apple could never match Nokia's legendary and titan logistics chain throughout the world, and that Apple, an MP3 device maker, had no clue as to the complexities of the mobile phone world, how mobile phones should be built, how to deal with operators, etc. Apple, said this SVP, was simply out of their league.

He also pointed out to me that Nokia already had umpteen gazillion MP3 players existing on their phones (never mind that NO ONE used them), and that they had just acquired white label music aggregator Loudeye and would parlay the Nokia/Microsoft/Loudeye team into a competitive offering - be damned their operator customers.

This SVP is a keenly smart, competent, accomplished guy, supremely educated and also a person who I consider a friend. And he was utterly clueless.

Time will tell, but it is telling a lot already. Apple owns the digital music business, and the Nokia/Microsoft/Loudeye/Universal response is in for a rude awakening. Further, Nokia better get in gear on their crummy smartphone software development PDQ as iPhone is storming the smartphone gates globally like a juggernaut. Apple will next pry open the door to lower and lower end devices, ripping market share away from Nokia and all others who have been punishing its consumer with lousy experiences, notwithstanding their opinion that they are Gods' gift to the consumer.

My money is bet on Apple on this one.


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Dec 10, 07 - 11:44 am Comment from: speedyg

you really said that?!

Dec 10, 07 - 11:50 am Comment from: MacMind

Thanks for reprinting Mike in Helsinki's e-mail here. It's good to read this kind of viewpoint from a industry insider and veteran.

Dec 10, 07 - 11:55 am Comment from: Ampar

From the MySpace page for Universal Music Group CEO Doug Morris:

His credits include writing the Chiffons' 1966 hit “Sweet Talkin' Guy” and producing such hit records as Brownsville Station's “Smokin' in the Boys Room.”


That explains a lot.

Dec 10, 07 - 12:00 pm Comment from: JadisOne

Mike-in-Helsinki's email was insightful. Arrogance, greed and laziness will be the demise of these companies. Steve Jobs sees it and is attacking it (to his company's advantage) every chance he gets.

Dec 10, 07 - 12:03 pm Comment from: Pete

I flatly told him that Nokia should considered Apple to be a very serious threat.

Mike, you talk too much. Loose lips sink ships.

Use a spell checker.

This SVP is a keenly smart, competent, accomplished guy, supremely educated and also a person who I consider a friend. And he was utterly clueless.

Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer.

Dec 10, 07 - 12:06 pm Comment from: macaholic

@Mike in Helsinki:

Wow!

Dec 10, 07 - 12:07 pm Comment from: Thanks

Great read Mike!

Dec 10, 07 - 12:08 pm Comment from: pastrychef

Mike in Helsinki:

No offense, but I'm glad the SVP didn't heed your warnings.

I used to be a big fan of Nokia's phones, but they've fallen way behind. They don't have a smartphone that can compete even with Windows Mobile. They used to have a clear lead in the UI department but that has eroded to zero as the other cellphone makers have improved their UIs. There's not one single device in their line up that interests me anymore.

Also, it's interesting to see how arrogant and/or naive many of these executives are...

Dec 10, 07 - 12:09 pm Comment from: Less is More ☆

Yah, well...no one needs the Universal catalog as much as one needs "a universal catalog." We still need competition to keep Apple on "our" road and not just on "their" road. Look at Microsoft: monopoly begat immense wealth for the monopolists but shit for their customers.

More than twenty years ago I said something similar about computers in general to a friend in a Japanese company, urging him to extend the company's constructive partnership with Apple as much as possible. They bought NeXT's hardware business instead (I wonder why).

Dec 10, 07 - 12:10 pm Comment from: Yimmie

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, Ok Nokia then go make a phone that is worthy of the revenue and I'm sure you could get it as well. Until then I am laughing my ass off.

I love how these companies think just because they exist someone should pay them. So funny.

Dec 10, 07 - 12:14 pm Comment from: Jake

Well, though I'm betting on Apple, this fight should be AWESOME to watch.
It will be--
Apple v. Nokia/M$/Universal/Loudeye
Gotta love those odds!!!
Go Apple!

Dec 10, 07 - 12:16 pm Comment from: Not Bill

Very interesting juxtaposition of views. True David and Goliath stuff. Nokia and Microsoft. How could they possibly loose. This upstart Apple has some good ideas. We will simply "cover them" with versions of our own. If there is a flaw to the plan it is Microsoft. They are so bad at what they do and so evil in their treatment of both the consumer and their partners that they just might fail.

Apple does these things right from the consumers perspective. Obviously, theirs products are the ones to have. On the other hand they really have no partners at all. Are they big enough to pull this off? I think they are probably not big enough to bring down M$ and Nokia. I do think Apple will prosper as an upscale alternative to the main stream. They will also continue teach that main stream a thing of two.

Isn't it better that way? Isn't Apple better as the alternative for those who know better? Wouldn't a 25 to 30% share of the world be big enough?

Dec 10, 07 - 12:21 pm Comment from: Anonymous©

Well written, Mike! Of course, the SVP was going to naysay, as you didn't give him a solution! You gave him the problem, Nokia doesn't have a powerful enough, computer-based OS to wrap around their phone, but not the answer. Tell him they need Windows CE/Mobile, teehee!

Dec 10, 07 - 12:22 pm Comment from: iamdj

@Not Bill:

I agree. I really don't want Apple to be the next Microsoft. If I were Steve, I wouldn't want Microsoft's or Nokia's business model.

Apple is doing things just right.

Dec 10, 07 - 12:23 pm Comment from: Anonymous©

It's actually, AppleGoo against Nokia/MS/theRest

Dec 10, 07 - 12:27 pm Comment from: M.X.N.T.4.1

Companies like Nokia should look at Dell. Dell coupled themselves with Microsoft and they're not doing well. They still make money but it's not growing and is going to decrease. They may not die but they've shown nothing to give any hope of a cure. Nokia will likely remain strong for a long time but it amazes me that it and companies like it seem not only unable but actually unwilling to learn from Apple's successes.

Dec 10, 07 - 12:28 pm Comment from: Jubei

Get ActiveSync of something to make it work with the Windows monopolize mail system and get copy and paste. iPhone will then take over the planet and these guys will be running around like chickens with their head cut off.

Dec 10, 07 - 12:30 pm Comment from: Macromancer

Wow Mike, that's an amazing look inside the mindset of Nokia.
As an Apple fan, and a fan of user friendly products, I hope that mindset stays and they get what's coming to them for failing to understand that consumers want great simple products.

Perhaps you have a future with Apple once Nokia gets bitch slapped into reality.

Dec 10, 07 - 12:32 pm Comment from: Metryq

Fat Chance Productions presents...

Dec 10, 07 - 12:33 pm Comment from: iestynw

"Isn't it better that way? Isn't Apple better as the alternative for those who know better? Wouldn't a 25 to 30% share of the world be big enough?"

I totally agree with this statement.
I don't want apple to be common-as-muck like windoze is now. I like apple how they are now. Apple increasing in size isn't really going to make much of a difference to their product line-up, I believe.
They already have all the best products in their respective markets. Best personal computer. Best personal music player. Best mobile phone.

Iest

Dec 10, 07 - 12:33 pm Comment from: iSteve

Pass the popcorn, the show is about to be begin. This fight will be so much better than anything on pay-per-view.

Dec 10, 07 - 12:34 pm Comment from: Jeff

Nokia, to AT&T;, we want you to share your revenue with us Just like you do with Apple.

AT&T;, so you will only sell your phones to us then?

Nokia, NO.

AT&T;, you will integrate some special software that consumers will realy want?

Nokia, NO.

AT&T;, some one order more iPhones we are dumping Nokia!!

Dec 10, 07 - 12:34 pm Comment from: Harry

Mike in Helsinki has a very clever point of view. Do you notice this Apple HQ Cupertino..? He was at the WWDC.

Dec 10, 07 - 12:38 pm Comment from: Jim - TIV

Something tells me Mike in Helinski is going to be polishing his resume a bit in the next few days. Unless the "who was active" means he got out while he could.

Dec 10, 07 - 12:51 pm Comment from: R2

What are you giving away the goods for, Mike? I hope they didn't start listening to you now.

Dec 10, 07 - 12:58 pm Comment from: @anonymous

I was thinking the same thing. I mean... MIke just stated a problem. And things could have been different. IT just so happened that the companies that Apple partnered with didn't fully understand how to leverage that position (see HP, Motorola)... They were mired in old business practices and didn't see what was really afoot.

Dec 10, 07 - 01:04 pm Comment from: WindozeKiller

How are the people in this industry (mobile phones) so utterly stupid? Nokia has no leverage to ask for (let alone demand) revenue sharing of any sort. The reason Apple could do it is that they offer a product that no one else can match (True internet browsing, Visual Voice Mail, and a video iPod/Phone combo).

Nokia offers nothing that Samsung, Palm, or RIM don't already offer. Their "services" are pathetic "me, too" attempts to keep up with Apple.

Even MORE stupid is this idea floating around that the carriers are planning to make money on ad revenues by somehow displaying Ads on phones. I can tell you right now that I will NEVER sit through an ad on my phone. If my carrier tried that, I would switch immediately.

Dec 10, 07 - 01:11 pm Comment from: wowiscrack

I think the Apple Inc. as BMW comparison works well. While the are in the same business BMW and Ford are competitors but compete only on a few products. Apple will not sell more phone than the large cell phone companies, it doesn't apprear to me they are out to sell phones to 90% of the population. Nor do they have to sell to that many people tpo be successfull. Nokia probably will be a very successfull company regardless of what Apple does.
But in the smartphone market they are going to get their asses handed to them. They will never match iPhones ease of use with any of the cell phone OS's out there. The iPhone will stay ahead for 2-3 years just because no one else has a credible OS to run a highend smartphone well.
MS will have to start from scratch and the Google one hasn't been seen yet. Nokia need only worry if they see their future growth in smartphones...they are screwed. If they want to build clever and cheaper commodity phones they will do well.

Dec 10, 07 - 01:51 pm Comment from: ../.

Jim - TIV: Something tells me Mike in Helinski is going to be polishing his resume a bit in the next few days. Unless the "who was active" means he got out while he could.

From his piece, it sounds like he is no longer with Nokia. He refers to Nokia with words such as "they", "them" and "their" instead of "we", "us" and "our." He no longer includes himself as a part of Nokia.

Dec 10, 07 - 02:24 pm Comment from: spyinthesky

Of course what isn't being recognised by most people is that eventually all phones will be 'smart' phones of one sort or another with varying degrees of smartness. the dumb phone that is the bulk of the market at present and in particular the core of Nokia's range and domination is heading for a medium to long term dead end. Apple just needs to have a strong position in the smartphone market to see the market as a whole come to them.

As for Nokia and Microsoft it seems that the former has learnt little from the Microsoft IBM partnership which ignited the desktop computer industry, one that Microsoft (for now) dominates and IBM has exited. Microsoft wants Nokia's market and any such partnership if successful will only deliver that all the sooner.

Dec 10, 07 - 02:47 pm Comment from: KingMel

A number of MDN forum contributors have pointed out over the last few years that big companies can fall - sometimes very fast and hard. There are precedents.

M$ has a lot of money and still has a strong, but slightly declining grip on the operating system and office productivity suite markets. However, to the best of my knowledge M$ has been a multi-billion dollar failure in virtually every other major endeavor. M$ has found it impossible to quickly buy the success it craves in these markets, although only time will tell if the investments pay off in the long term. I wouldn't bet on it.

Dec 10, 07 - 02:49 pm Comment from: Not Bill

"AppleGoo"

Beautiful!

These two are maybe the only ones really changing things right now. Who else?

Dec 10, 07 - 02:57 pm Comment from: Gill Bates and Beve Stallmer

Mike points to the elephant in the room when he says that Nokia don't have a desktop to go with their handheld devices.

And they may have a handlheld OS, but I'm not convinced that's up to much either. I've got a Nokia and it's OK, but it's a few years old now and looking its age, while I don't know what they have now is much better. If phones are getting "smarter" and smartphones are eating the PDA market, is Symbian really up to it? We know Palm's OS isn't. Heck, Palm are even abandoning their own OS and dabbling in horrible Windows Mobile. And doing deals with Microsoft, as has already been observed by several people, is madness of the first water, anyway. A glance at their history - and court cases - should tell anyone that.

Nokia have launched a Linux tablet. Maybe Linux will be the way for them to go on all their lines. At least they'd have something solid underneath ... not that they'd have anything like the Cocoa frameworks to go on top. And no "Java will do" is not a good enough answer.

All these people really don't know what's hit them. Their technology just isn't that good, and they're not going to catch up in a hurry.

Dec 10, 07 - 03:20 pm Comment from: cartoonasaurus

Here is a New York Times interview of Nokia! Came out today. They call Apple a "credible cellular newcomer." A backhanded compliment, i.e., 'newcomer' means, 'not as experienced as Nokia..."

Found it at Macnn

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/10/technology/10nokia.html?ex=1354942800&en=50b2f29b243294bc&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Dec 10, 07 - 03:59 pm Comment from: MCCFR

[Microsoft] has an unenvied track record in failure at every single endeavor they try except their PC OS business, Office productivity suite and maybe servers. I told him that Microsoft is a lying, double-crosser of the first water.

Come on, Mike - no need to sit on the fence grin

Dec 10, 07 - 04:05 pm Comment from: Not Bill

Mike is correct from what I can see.

Dec 10, 07 - 04:08 pm Comment from: effwerd

I always liked Mike in Helsinki, this just reinforces that impression. Great advice, Mike. Too bad it fell on deaf ears.

Dec 10, 07 - 06:15 pm Comment from: silverhawk

Apple needs to come up with a unlocked version of iPhone that can be used on T-Mobile. Can't use AT&T;in my area.

Dec 10, 07 - 06:17 pm Comment from: AlanAudio

The problem that I see for Nokia is that in order to warrant getting a cut of the revenues, they need to produce a handset with new features that so compelling that it makes it worth splitting revenues. Tugging on the coat tails of Universal and Microsoft doesn't look like a winning formula to me. Insisting on getting a share of the revenues may make Nokia products less attractive to the networks and may reduce their market share.

Apple has already shown the way. Nokia are trying to make out that that they are the experienced players and Apple are the new kids on the block, but who is actually copying who ?

One further problem that I see for Nokia is that there doesn't seem to be much brand loyalty concerning mobile phone handsets. Most of the people I know have had handsets from nearly all of the leading brands in recent years and wouldn't hesitate to swap to another brand. But Apple customers have a legendary product loyalty that many companies envy.

It looks to me that Nokia are denying the world as it really is. I already thought that before I read Mike's fascinating account, but after reading what he had to say, I'm even more convinced that they are fooling themselves and refusing to acknowledge the things that are obvious to everybody else.

Dec 10, 07 - 07:29 pm Comment from: Smokin'

One phone from Apple spoils the whole bunch boys.

This is Apple's first phone.

The Mac made a change in the world and Apple has done it again with the iPhone.



Congratulations Apple.


Customers want the iPhone, and the next two models showing up on January 7th will let everyone enjoy a iPhone.

It's your choice, highend G3 (gPhone) with 16 or 32 Gb of storage, mid-level Edge (iPhone) 4 or 8 Gb or the at the low end of the product line Google ready 700 Mhz (ePhone) 2 or 4 Gb.

Nokia better get back into the drawing board.


j

Dec 10, 07 - 08:17 pm Comment from: John C. Randolph

"so compelling that it makes it worth splitting revenues"

Bingo!

You've hit the nail on the head. Nokia is yet another in a long line of organizations that led their industry, became complacent, and is about to learn a very expensive lesson.

-jcr

Dec 10, 07 - 08:33 pm Comment from: LorD1776

Like Palm?

Dec 10, 07 - 09:35 pm Comment from: MacSheikh

Spelling Police Alert:

The word is "LOSE" people, not "Loose"!

Thank you.

Oh yeah, and Nokia/Comes With Music will Go With Tail Between Their Legs.

Dec 11, 07 - 09:32 am Comment from: Mr. Reeee

Great letter, Mike! Some good observations.

Face it, there will always be a place for dumb-phones. There's actually a big market for "just-a-phone". Take a look, it's on the flip-side of the iPhone trend and there are millions who just want a feature-itis free phone with long battery life that just works... NO PDA features, NO camera (PLEASE!), NO music player, NO calendar, NO web surfing, etc., etc., etc.. Just a decent, easy to use phone with a contact list. PERIOD.

I only have a feauture-itis phone, because that's all you can get if you want Bluetooth. My next phone WILL be an iPhone.

Apple is smart to stay out of the dumb-phone market. Let Nokia and Motorola and Sony Ericsson and BenQ slug it out and bloody themselves in that space. Their phones fall into the "good-enough" market space, whether they're flip, candy bar, slider or swivel models, they ALL essentially suck in equal measure. They just Suck Different™.

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