MacDailyNews - Where Mac news comes first

May 23, 09 - 10:37 pm Comment from: silverhawk

Hey Apple, give Minnesota a try. Our cold winters can save you large cash. Just open the windows and mother nature can cool the servers.

May 23, 09 - 10:58 pm Comment from: The Voice of Reason

I agree. We in Minnesota have natural air conditioning most of the year. They could even build it in Duluth and use Lake Superior water for cooling in the summer. It is always cold. The only problem is that we LOVE to tax. If it moves, tax it. If it doesn't move, tax it.

May 23, 09 - 11:31 pm Comment from: alansky

Natural air conditioning may save on energy costs but would not spare Apple the expense of installing industrial-strength a/c to cool the facility in the summer months when it gets very hot and sticky in Minnesota, as it does in most places.

May 23, 09 - 11:37 pm Comment from: hardmanb

What is Apple planning for a $1 Billion "East Coast" server farm?

Anybody know?

May 24, 09 - 12:30 am Comment from: breeze

This is BIG.

May 24, 09 - 12:36 am Comment from: ken1w

Where are Apple's current "server farms"? In Cupertino? If so, I can see how that would be expensive.

May 24, 09 - 02:02 am Comment from: Not Bill

Why would N. Carolina give a huge tax break for a facility that employees 100 people? Don't you need large payrolls to create an economic benefit? Either large payrolls or large sales to pay tax on. Or large profits taxes for which are paid in that state.

I don't get it. Unless there will be a lot more than 100 people working there.

Apple must already have some pretty large server farms. This may just be one more in a network. In that case it would not be a really bit deal.

May 24, 09 - 03:37 am Comment from: mike_in_helsinki

Brings those servers to Finland. Colder here than in Minnesota. However, as we do have far sexier women here than there, it may burn up of few of them as well.

Your call, Apple.

May 24, 09 - 04:35 am Comment from: MizuInOz

"The official spoke to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity because the state's recruitment efforts are confidential,"

Another case of someone who is powerless in their life, so their 15 nano-seconds of fame is to divulge confidential information.

phuquen ashwhole...

Maybe now NC will lose the opportunity to host the servers.

I remember when keeping a confidentiality actually meant something.

This claptrap disgusts me.

May 24, 09 - 06:52 am Comment from: oilpressure

Here's a concept that other states should try: Rewrite the tax code so everybody benefits from the same low tax rates. Apple, IBM, GMC and yes even Joe's Eats. All businesses large and small would want to come and set up shop.

What a concept!

May 24, 09 - 07:40 am Comment from: Hm...

@ MizuInOz

I do really hope NC loses this "opportunity."

So far:
- NC gave huge tax incentives to Dell a few years ago; we can see how well that's paid off.
- NC is laying off nearly a 1000 teachers, security guards, and teacher's aids. And increasing class size.
- NC has cut state employee's (and teacher's) salaries retroactively this year. Except for high-level state employees who are "protected" by the sate constitution from pay cuts.
- NC is laying off hundreds of university staff and some faculty, reducing classes offered, and increasing class size.
- NC froze all purchasing during April, canceling any contracts that had been made—even buying paper was forbidden at schools.

And now the legislators and governor want to offer Apple $86 million in "tax incentives"? To bring—maybe 100— jobs to the state. Clearly, the NC schools have completely failed to teach basic math skills, because these elected officials can't add 1 plus 1 without getting 4. If only they could throw out the whole lot and start over...

Extra credit question: On whom is a contract binding in NC? Not on the state, only on the fool who enters into it with the state.

May 24, 09 - 07:48 am Comment from: MizuInOz

@Hm...

You absolutely validate my thinking, Mate!

Maybe you can send them to Hawaii - the BOE is just a screwed up there!

May 24, 09 - 08:15 am Comment from: Tommy Boy

@ MizuInOz: Confidential Information?!?! My hairy a-- if that's confidential. Any business that a government does, any government entity, at any level, unless it is directly related to national security, should be done publicly, in the open, transparently, and with lots of sunshine on it. Especially if it is related to taxes. If a company wants a tax break then the other taxpayers in the affected jurisdiction should be able to let their feelings be known, pro or con.

May 24, 09 - 08:29 am Comment from: Zune Tang®

A server farm for what? MAC's unpopular and money-losing I-Phone and I-Pod have been playing catchup to Windows Mobile and Zune and they want to waste money on a server farm?

Hey MAC is the ramp up an attempt to relaunch that failed app store and profit off of all those burp and fart apps you expect to sell to 8-year olds on those toy phones? Maybe. I think its more MAC finally woke up to the awesome web presence and success of Microsoft's 'Live' initiative and they want to copy it. I suggest they fix their buggy products first.

Your potential. Our passion.™

May 24, 09 - 08:44 am Comment from: Not Bill

The tablet will need lots of connectivity? Even for everyday applications like word processing and email?

May 24, 09 - 08:52 am Comment from: Anonymous©

Well, this is nothing like the $240M tax break Dell got for a factory they built in Winston-Salem just a few years ago, which they are now trying to sell. I hope NC had some clawback provisions in their deal.

May 24, 09 - 09:02 am Comment from: R

A tax incentive for a billion in agreed upon investment is an enticement. The State will make out in the long run like crazy. It's called an incentive to lure, but Apple is doing al the spending. Think of the deal coming with a little tube of travel toothpaste. It makes you feel like you're getting a great deal.

May 24, 09 - 10:53 am Comment from: MizuInOz

@Tommy Boy
I agree with you on transaction transparency within government. We hope for that here in Australia, too. BUT it isn't happening.

However, with that said, if at the current time, there are confidentiality agreements in place; they should be honoured. Period. Full Stop.

that is my complaint. I do not support back room deals at the citizens expense.

think about all of the cool trillions that have just left your treasury coffers over the last 8 years - because of back room deals.

War is not about vanquishing an enemy. It is about profiteering. More government shadiness.

President Eisenhower warned of it in his last speech to the American public.

I think there should be more voter referendums and less government for the elite by the elite. Remember your national fate is being directed by less than 600 people.

That is kind of elitist. Doncha think!
Cheers from the land down under!

May 24, 09 - 11:18 am Comment from: DogGone

Apple bought another large unit in Newark CA a few years back. A state of the art facility for data distribution that was built at the end of the dotcom boom and never used. Not sure if it is a server farm as well.

One question: is $50M significant if Apple have to invest $1B in the facility?

Welcome back Zune Tang.

May 24, 09 - 11:50 am Comment from: Sir Gill Bates

With an investment this big I'm sure some of that moola will gravitate to a few politicians' pockets. It's just one of nature's irrefutable laws.

May 24, 09 - 12:17 pm Comment from: TheMacAdvocate

Economic impact generated from employment can be generated from operations, but it can also be construction-related or purchasing-related. $1B in spending has a helluva lot of impact.

Why would Apple want this scale of server capacity? I have my own theory...

http://themacadvocate.com/2009/05/20/unsolicited-suggestion-for-apple’s-cash-1505/

May 24, 09 - 12:36 pm Comment from: TheMacAdvocate

@Hm...
Clearly you don't understand the math behind economic impact statements. Do a little Googling. It's not the 100 jobs that the tax break is based on.

Tax breaks are standard business development incentives. Without them, a lot of this spending wouldn't go to states like NC, if they even stayed in this country at all.

May 24, 09 - 12:54 pm Comment from: HMCIV

This is exactly the kind of farm subsides they do over in France that get everyone riled up over free trade agreements! America needs real agricultural change not a financial band aid!

Wait... what kind of apple farm is this?

May 24, 09 - 01:22 pm Comment from: Hm...

@ TheMacAdvocate

Actually, I do understand the math behind the economic impact statements—and I find it severely flawed. Tax breaks are fine incentives when appropriate. But when the state nearly defaulted on its payroll, is canceling contracts, is giving retroactive paycuts, is discussing closing schools for a week to save funds, that is not the time to offer to provide extra services to a target company for a potential return in a few years. The problem comes by basing all the projections of economic gain on future secondary and tertiary effects of the company's investment. What beyond the physical plant construction and those 100 jobs is going to put money into NC coffers? Not the equipment, that's not made in NC—unless Apple decides to use Dell servers. Look at NC's Dell fiasco to see another potentiality.

May 24, 09 - 01:22 pm Comment from: Macsweep

Maine is cold or cool most of the year, especially on the coast, where temperatures rarely get above 80˚F or 27˚C.

May 24, 09 - 02:57 pm Comment from: Wingsy

Leave it to my state to tax the h*ll out of us and give it away to the UNneedy. They did the same with Dell when they built a plant a few miles from here and look what that got them. As far as I know the only time something like this MIGHT have benefitted the state was the FedEx hub in Greensboro.

Like, my property tax went up 50% this year, so I offered them to buy it at the PREVIOUS evaluation, sell it, and make a killing. Of course all they said was take us to court.

Don't move to NC if you're looking for low taxes.

May 24, 09 - 03:47 pm Comment from: aka Christian

@oilpressure

This is nice in concept, and many Americans profess to want this, but in practice, the fact is that states with higher tax rates also tend to have the highest quality of life, not the other way around. In Minnesota, for example, where we "LOVE to tax. If it moves, tax it. If it doesn't move, tax it," quoting The Voice of Reason's post above, we have enjoyed the highest quality education, health care, child care, wages per capita, etc. in the U.S. while also having one of the lowest unemployment rates. These indicators have been slipping the last eight years as our governor has refused to increase any taxes, even our antiquated gas tax, in favor of cutting everything to the bone. (You may have heard of a bridge collapse we suffered recently? Well, a less famous example of our failing infrastructure is that school boards here used to govern school districts. Now they perpetually try to raise money to make up for what the state no longer provides.)

Why does this "higher tax rate" work sometimes? Because companies will often, but not always, build and stay in a place with two things: an educated work force and a decent place for that work force to live. And many workers choose to live that way, as well. So the companies are willing to pay a premium for better quality in return. (Kind of like the experience of owning a Mac, imo.)

Clearly, many people might want to live in a region where education is generally poor, infrastructure is lacking, there's little public recreation, little or no cultural opportunity, etc. but everyone gets to keep 5% more of their payroll. So be it. But many of us, my family included, are happy to pay for what we consider a better lifestyle, and often, companies here are willing to pay for that, as well.

In case you're wondering, just a few companies based here are Best Buy, Target, 3M, General Mills, West Law, and Medtronic. We had Northwest Airlines until their recent merger with Delta.

Just my opinion, based on facts and experience.

(Say... when did MDN start requiring all posters to be registered? I read this site all the time, only rarely post, and hadn't noticed this before. Must be suffering techno-density.)

May 24, 09 - 06:18 pm Comment from: Big Als MBP

@ aka Christian,

Study after study shows that raising tax rates actually lowers employment and lowers tax revenue. What's more, lowering tax rates increases employment and increases tax revenue.

It's a very simple concept that seems to be beyond the scope of most politicos, both conservatives and liberals.

It makes sense though. The more money you have, the more money you spend, the more people you indirectly employ. The more people who work, the more money that gets paid in taxes, the lower the tax rates.

It really is that simple.

May 24, 09 - 06:52 pm Comment from: silverhawk

mike_in_helsinki
You cannot have any good looking women left in Finland. They all came over to Minnesota where their men worked the iron mines. Minnesota is full of Fins, especially in the north.

May 24, 09 - 08:28 pm Comment from: TheMacAdvocate

@Hm...
Every state has to slash spending - we're in a recession. That's not a reason for states not to motivate businesses to open to open facilities.

Almost all of that $1B construction is going to NC businesses, whose spending will also ripple through the economy. The methodology, as much as you'd like it to be, is based on sound economic modeling.

In addition to the construction spending, all the surcharges on utilities, which will be ample, will also be paid. There will probably have to be additional electrical infrastructure required to accommodate the facility.

Bottom line: if Apple doesn't come to NC and goes to, say, SC, you don't get any spending and you don't get your $86 million in tax back.

May 25, 09 - 04:11 am Comment from: Walter

Say... when did MDN start requiring all posters to be registered? I read this site all the time, only rarely post, and hadn't noticed this before. Must be suffering techno-density.

Just for the weekend.

Owner and wife are out for the memorial day weekend.

God bless them, they need a rest from the trolls.

May 25, 09 - 04:19 am Comment from: Walter

All messages posted at this site express the views of the author, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the owners and administrators of this site.

By registering at this site you agree not to post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, or that violate any laws. We will permanently ban all users who do so.

We reserve the right to remove, edit, or move any messages for any reason.

Note for "any reason" so don't get upset if you get banned all of a sudden. Because it does happen.

They get tired of deleting your past posts for "any reason", even if you don't violate the above rules, then all of a sudden your banned.

This upset quite a few people here last week and they came back in force, so the owner decided to Registration only, most likely for the weekend.

May 25, 09 - 04:26 am Comment from: Walter

Need I add the "hostiles" posted some personal data about the site owner, that's how I know.

And I'm assuming Chris is married, I don't know for sure.

I'll be banned for sure now, shit.

Oh well. That's what I get for posting at 5 o'clock in the morning.

May 25, 09 - 06:11 am Comment from: oilpressure

Well I guess you're right regarding quality of life in Minnesota and other high tax states, my bad. They have those standards written down somewhere.

I should have been more specific in saying that I prefer to be the determiner of my quality of life and not have the state do it for me, but I guess that's me.

Cheers!

May 25, 09 - 07:59 am Comment from: Sir Gill Bates

"By registering at this site you agree not to post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, or that violate any laws."

I'm sure glad there's none of that kinda stuff going on here.

May 25, 09 - 08:30 am Comment from: NCMacMan

Its interesting that the only high-tech tax break that is metioned is Dell. NC wants high tech to come to the state as the state is reeing from job losses in several major industries (over the last decade, not just the last year): furniture, textiles, auto parts, tobacco growing/manufacturing, and others.

The furniture and textile job losses were particularly hurtful, and as most NC residents in non-urban counties do not have more than a high school education, it is imperative to NC to retrain its workers and support industries where the economic growth is. This is why the state supported the tax breaks for Dell -- however it wasn't expected by state leaders that Dell would end up being in its current state -- not NC's fault by the way.

There have been many beneficiaries of NC's corporate tax breaks. Google, IBM, Bayer, GSK, and many more have brought jobs to the state with associated tax revenues.

I hope that Apple doesn't back out. The state needs the jobs -- especially in either of the counties that were named (both have unemployment rates well over 10%).

Please note that I am not saying that there are potentially more deserving places in the country, but that if a local government has the foresight to attract a company like Apple to build infrastructure in a local economy and give incentives to bring that said company to the area, then that good for them. They are then doing the job that the voters entrusted them with.

May 25, 09 - 10:11 am Comment from: Walter

I'm sure glad there's none of that kinda stuff going on here

I said sh*t, stupid me, I prayed three Hail Marys and three Our Fathers and begged God to forgive me.

I was stupid, stupid, dam me to hell. Ill never do it again, I was tired and forgot to use the * thingy, I'm sorry, I only want to do good, I type fast and stupid when Im tired.

I don't expect to be here long, I always get banned at other sites too, I just talk and think outside the box too much. hurts peoples brains.

I love MDN, I love Apple, just Im one of the crazy ones.

May 25, 09 - 10:34 am Comment from: Sir Gill Bates

Walter,

I'm sorry, but that just isn't good enough for the atrocious behavior you have exhibited here.

As penance you are to use a Dell PC running on Windows Vista for the period of one month. Optionally, you can watch Fox News and listen to Rush Limbaugh for the same length of time.

Personally, I'd opt for Vista. Or suicide.

May 25, 09 - 11:07 am Comment from: Ron Robertson

I'm just wondering how a server farm could cost $1B? It can't be the servers themselves. Oh well, maybe I should read the article, which may have an answer.

That said, I think the incentive from the legislators' point of view is that Apple spending $1B will have strong ripple effects in the local economy.

May 25, 09 - 01:48 pm Comment from: Hm...

The article said, "qualify only if they locate in one of North Carolina's poorest counties." The poorest counties have over 10% unemployment, but not a highly-educated workforce. The jobs would be filled by people moving in. The poorest NC counties also lack the infrastructure: low power-grid network capacity, no nearby airport, only barely adequate roads, no significant broadband access, minimal existing service industry. Who's going to pay for all that? The power grid *might* get picked picked up by the utilities, but the consumers will foot the bill. The roads? Not the county, it'll have to be state DOT by reallocating their resources from other projects. A service industry? In a few years, maybe, but server-farms take very specialized services - there won't be any local expertise for years. I still fail to see what specific ripple effects can offset the large cost, shifted resources, and foregone tax revenues.

I've lived in NC for 30 years: I've come to understand why NC is "first in roads, last in education."

May 25, 09 - 02:29 pm Comment from: leodavinci

I'm a laisse-faire capitalist who is opposed to tax breaks for businesses. They ought to be illegal. All they do is force the citizenry to make up the tax burden difference... which citizens do anyway because businesses don't pay taxes. The cost of taxes just gets passed along to consumers in the form of price hikes.

Without tax breaks, at least the consumers of said businesses would be paying the costs, and not forcing all other citizens to subsidize the businesses' tax burdens... as exists with tax breaks currently.

Now that said, I'm not opposed to states offering incentives to get businesses to relocate, build new facilities, etc., etc. Just that incentives shouldn't come in the form of tax breaks or, if they must, then they ought to be very restricted and expire after some time period.

And citizens ought not to be footing the bill for multi-million dollar, so-called "public works" projects (like sports stadiums), either. If private enterprises want them bad enough, they can (and successfully do) build them on their own dime.

May 25, 09 - 07:03 pm Comment from: mackle

tax incentives to locate in a state are not the same as giving an existing company a tax break. there is no tax revenue foregone, since there is no tax revenue today (from the new enterprise). you cannot lose tax revenue you do not have. what you do have is lost opportunity cost of lost potential revenue. in this case, a dribble of tax revenue is more that what you have today. will the project cause some local prioritization of infrastructure projects? probably. will it be better or worse than the case where no economic development occurred? probably not. will a new school be required? probably not, will it fill up some classrooms? probably.

this is not so much a tax break as improving your chances of getting some economic development. if you want to remain underdeveloped, stay one the sidelines, but do not complain about those who play the game. even the failed ventures are badges of trying (unless local capital was invested and lost).

not doing this is kind of like not wanting to win the lottery because of all the taxes you will have to pay.

May 26, 09 - 07:32 am Comment from: jocknerd

@Hm,

Funny that you say NC is last in education. I sit 15 miles above the state line in VA and I'm jealous of your education system. NC's completely kicks the shit out of VA's. We would probably rank last in the country in just about every statistical category if not for Washington, DC feeding everything in Northern Virginia. Our redneck country hick lawmakers don't believe in spending a dime on anything. Just look at our roads.

May 26, 09 - 08:36 pm Comment from: aka Christian

@Big Al's MBP

Studies may show that to be the case - and can you point me to some of those? - but facts show otherwise. Minnesota was about the fourth highest-taxed state through the 90's and early 2000's, yet had the lowest unemployment rate in the country, well below the national average. Look at high-tax New England states, look at the Pacific Northwest, look at Minnesota and Wisconsin. They are tops in all quality of life indexes, tops in income per capita, too. Low-tax states?

I'm not saying that those taxes necessarily just go to bigger government in all cases either, although, yes, we probably have more state workers in our Department of Natural Resources, our state colleges system, our highway department than some. It's the fact that years ago Minnesotans decided they simply expected more and were willing to pay more. More and better public parks, bike trails, snowmobile trails, clean lakes, support for theaters and museums, better quality educational systems (St. Paul, Minnesota's, public school system busses students, at a huge cost, to any school within large regions of the district, and parents can choose ANY public school if they can get their kids there). Pay more for better quality. It's fact, not opinion.

But I'm well aware that many people don't share that desire for those things in their lives. Fortunately, there are plenty of states that don't offer those things and don't ask for that financial sacrifice.

THIS STORY AND MANY MORE LIKE IT ARE THE INSCRIPTION ON CALIFORNIA'S TOMB STONE.

Thanks to professional politicians, and their need to buy votes... the salaries, health care, paid holidays, and early retirement benefits of PUBLIC sector employees, dwarf those with equivalent jobs in the PRIVATE sector and create an unsustainable annual overhead.

Add to that the staggering cost to provide education, health care, social services, and in some cases incarceration, to millions of illegal aliens (during a deep recession when tax revenues are way down) and you have the perfect storm. This state WILL go bankrupt.

The good news is, bankruptcy is the only way Calif. can get out from under all those unrealistic union contracts.

May 28, 09 - 05:45 pm Comment from: aka Christian

@WYMD

Legalize marijuana and hemp. Free all of those incarcerated because of it, cut loose the law enforcement paid to fight it, let CA farmers grow and sell it, then tax it. The state's woes will be over in two years, tops.

I don't smoke and never have, but I know plenty of otherwise upright citizens who do, and laws have had zero impact on their ability to have it.

And, hey, sorry folks. I don't normally get too political here and don't like the threads that do. In fact, if it has an overtly political title, I don't even read it. Just kind of got sucked in this time.

MDN is a fun site and I actually do learn a lot from the geeky ones here and the business savvy and enjoy reading the many points of view.

Namaste.