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Dec 17, 07 - 04:29 pm Comment from: Jimbo von Winskinheimer

Let me save you whiners the time: "Apple is not releasing full new versions every year, so you can't compare it to Vista's release." Wah, cry me a freakin' river.

@Jimbo

More likely they'll whine about how buggy Leopard's launch was compared to Tiger, even though when Tiger launched I remember hearing all about how it was so incredibly buggy, Apple had let them down, blah blah blah.

These numbers are one thing... but the quality of the product is another... Leopard has had more bugs than I can remember an update has ever had... and some pretty non-Apple interface changes to boot!

wellll.... this is the buggiest ever. Installed all the upgrades on about 20 machines over the past 7 years: from the first OSX 10.1 ( I forget the name... ) thru leopard. This is definitly the buggiest. Obviously, 100X better then ANY windows upgrade, ever. But relatively poor for Apple's standards. They could have waited another month or 2 to clean it up. When your stuff works that good, the expectations are perhaps unreasonably high. But they should have known that.

Msft: 1 release every 6 years at $330 (Ultimate Premium) = $330

Apple: 1 release every 12 - 18 months at $129 = $620.

Assume every other skipped it comes out to $360.
(6 x 12 = 72 / 15 months average = 4.8 - 2 skipped = 2.8 x 129 = $360)

Mac users wind up paying just as much (or more) for our choice of operating system. In general terms, Apple makes more off box sales of the OS, per sale, than Microsoft.

Of course this is a comparison of off the shelf sales price and makes no consideration for the hardware which, in general, Mac users do not have to replace everytime we upgrade the OS.

10.0 Cheetah
10.1 Puma
10.2 Jaguar
10.3 Panter
10.4 Tiger
10.5 Leopard

"Apple: 1 release every 12 - 18 months at $129 = $620."

I don't recall this $129 yearly release.

That's ridiculous.

If you just didn't buy any of Apple's in-between upgrades and bought the most recent OS X whenever Microsoft came out with a new version of Windows, voila! You're spending $129 for your Mac "choice of operating system" in comparison with Windows.

Dec 17, 07 - 05:08 pm Comment from: ron

Bill H. "
Mac users wind up paying just as much (or more) for our choice of operating system. In general terms, Apple makes more off box sales of the OS, per sale, than Microsoft."

My time is worth much more than messing around with Window's problems. "Cancel or Allow". How much does it cost per year to be free of viruses in Windows?

@Bill H.

Yes, you may pay more but you've also had the opportunity to be using the new capabilities earlier. Or you could've waited six years and paid just $129 (assuming your hardware still supports it). Or you could've waited six years and paid nothing extra by just buying a new Mac.

Dec 17, 07 - 05:11 pm Comment from: GmanMac

5 user family pack, that's $40.00 per Mac to upgrade to Leopard.

Best operating system& best value on the planet.

What would a downgrade from 5 Vistas to 5 Windows XP 's cost?


Thanks Apple for making great computing affordable.

@Bill H.

Should've also added just to be fair: Of course, the latter is exactly the same for Windows.

"That's ridiculous.
If you just didn't buy any of Apple's in-between upgrades and bought the most recent OS X whenever Microsoft came out with a new version of Windows, voila! You're spending $129 for your Mac "choice of operating system" in comparison with Windows."

Yeah well, in reality 10.0, 10.1, and 10.2 sucked, .. BAD! I'm sure you don't think so since of course, "Steve said" it was the best ever. But for us who actually used (or tried to) early releases of OSX, the fact of the matter is that every version prior to Panther was downright horrible and almost unusable. It was slow, clumsy, and crashed, a LOT!

Beginning with Panther, OS X over took Windows and with Tiger did indeed pull years ahead of M$. What you are saying is absolutely true - Today. But in the early days you HAD to upgrade just to make your system 1/2 way stable.

Dec 17, 07 - 05:20 pm Comment from: Connor MacBook

Schedulerr, I reckon Jaguar was the first usable version. But Panther had the better Finder layout and introduced Fast User Switching and Expose.

"Schedulerr, I reckon Jaguar was the first usable version. But Panther had the better Finder layout and introduced Fast User Switching and Expose."

Agree!!

Dec 17, 07 - 05:40 pm Comment from: Zuno the Clown

Actually, Scheduler, only 10.0 sucked. 10.1 was fine, if not a bit sluggish, and 10.2 performed well plus had great compatability with Classic - you could run classic OpenGL games better than with any other relase of OS X.

Panther was, IMHO, the best OSX release to date - OS X really matured and had a minimum of fluff. Tiger is very much like Panther - Spotlight was a great addition, but Dashboard is just bloat that leaves me flat. One of my machines is still on Panther, and I see no compelling reason to upgrade.

I'll wait for new towers to worry about Leopard, which seems to be the fluffiest release yet, although Spotlight has been improved.

@Zuno the Clown

Well the strange part is this:

I have Leopard loaded on my Intel Mini and MacBook. I have Tiger loaded on my 12" 1.2 G G4 iBook, and Panther loaded on my 14" 1.0 G G4 iBook. All run well, and I am quite satisfied. As a matter of fact, I could be satisfied with any of the 3 OS's.

Now, I also have an old Powermac G4 Digital audio. It had 10.2 loaded on it, and it crashed regularly. It wasn't at all snappy. I installed a 1.2 G G4, loaded it with 1.5 G of RAM, and reinstalled 10.2. Same difference. BAD.... So I loaded 10.4 and the machine literally jumped to life. No more crashing, no more hesitation, the machine runs beautifully.

My early experience with 10.0, 10.1, and 10.2 was with a Wallstreet, and I kept running back to MacOs 9.2. At least for me they were horrible. I loaded Panther on it when it came out and the machine again suddenly stabilized (of course I sold this one a few year ago)....

I guess different folks can have different results depending on your individual hardware configurations, but these are my experiences..

Regards

Dec 17, 07 - 06:19 pm Comment from: LorD1776

Yeah, when I had 10.2 Jaguar I would boot into OS9 so I could use my printer and scanner. It really wasn't until 10.3 that I went full out and dumped OS9. Panther was sweet (still using it on a eMac) and Tiger awesome. Just a matter of time till Leopard is tweaked to perfection.

"How much does it cost per year to be free of viruses in Windows?"

Nothing, use Linux.

Dec 17, 07 - 06:28 pm Comment from: Not Bill

Compared to zero upgrades in over five years any at all would be a lot.

Dec 17, 07 - 06:28 pm Comment from: Brau

I wonder how many folks are like me - bought it but haven't installed it once I saw all the major issues people are having with it. Also, the promise of wireless backups via an Airport Extreme never materialized, as promised, so it will wait. For now, Tiger rocks!

Brau,

Maybe I'm just one of the lucky ones but I bought it and so far (knock on wood) it has worked beautifully on both my Intel machines. No issues.

I have not loaded it on the G4's because I believe that it might be pushing it a bit and I'm afraid it might kill their responsiveness, but who knows.

Dec 17, 07 - 06:47 pm Comment from: Vlad

I didn't have any real problems with Leopard. I'm still convinced that if people had taken reasonable precautions, 95% of the "problems" people had could have been avoided.

Installed on 4 Machines. I have had no problems.

Best ever?? No way. It all sucks, you hear me?

You're all sheep. Steve has you all duped. He's a modern day Joseph Smith.

Blah de blah.

These financial stats are somewhat disingenuous. Think about it - the first OSX upgrade in years (the longest interval ever, in fact) with record Mac sales in the interval, and I would have expected much higher numbers.

I put Leopard on my laptop. I still have Tiger on my desktop (G5 Tower), and loaded it on a separate boot drive, but frankly, I still like Tiger better, and hardly ever use it on the G5. Overall usability is worse in Leopard, thanks to loss of Hierarchical Menus in the Dock, among other niggling issues and software compatibilities.

Tiger is a mature operating system, with a mature development community. People are still playing catchup with Leopard. Maybe I'll convert completely when it's time to get a new computer, but at this rate, that could be years. Tiger Rocks!

These financial stats are somewhat disingenuous. Think about it - the first OSX upgrade in years (the longest interval ever, in fact) with record Mac sales in the interval, and I would have expected much higher numbers.

I put Leopard on my laptop. I still have Tiger on my desktop (G5 Tower), and loaded Leopard on a separate boot drive, but frankly, I still like Tiger better, and hardly ever use Leopard on the G5. Overall usability is worse in Leopard, thanks to loss of Hierarchical Menus in the Dock, among other niggling issues and software compatibilities.

Tiger is a mature operating system, with a mature development community. People are still playing catchup with Leopard. Maybe I'll convert completely when it's time to get a new computer, but at this rate, that could be years. Tiger Rocks!

Dec 17, 07 - 07:26 pm Comment from: shen

"More likely they'll whine about how buggy Leopard's launch was compared to Tiger, even though when Tiger launched I remember hearing all about how it was so incredibly buggy, Apple had let them down,"

everyone who says that should be forced to use Vista for a year...

...except i am pretty sure that qualifies as torture under international law.

Dec 17, 07 - 07:35 pm Comment from: shen

""How much does it cost per year to be free of viruses in Windows"

Nothing, use Linux."

how much does it cost to not have to spend a month tweaking the system to make everything work after every minor interface or xWindows or kernel update?

been there, done that, love it for servers, will never run it on my laptop/desktop again, thanks anyway....

"how much does it cost to not have to spend a month tweaking the system to make everything work after every minor interface or xWindows or kernel update?"

Wow it takes you a month to get everything going again after a kernel update. Maybe the Mac is the right platform for you then.

Dec 17, 07 - 08:23 pm Comment from: ken1w

> Mac users wind up paying just as much (or more) for our choice of operating system.

But at least Mac users have a choice to upgrade. Windows users are stuck with XP for six years, and then the only option after waiting so long is Vista. That would suck very hard.

Also, the upgrade to 10.1 was free for users who paid for 10.0. And I don't know of anyone who started at 10.0 and paid for every upgrade without getting a new Mac somewhere along the way.

[If you count Tiger for Intel as a separate major release, there have been seven major releases of Mac OS X.]

So I finally bought Leopard today. For those that read about my iPhone Rebate Saga, I finally got it today, thanks to Jason, manager at the Southcenter mini-store, for finally sorting it out for me. The shiny, pretty box is in my purse, ready to pounce... and ready for me to fix the horrid new dock and replace the Tiger folder stucture and get rid of this awful 'springing fan' BS.
I'm now sitting at the bar at Bahama Breeze, drinking my 3rd 'Victoria's Secret', waiting for my girlfrind's plane to land. I still have another 90 minutes... (hic*)
I might not make it out of here...

-c

MW: 'he's' (bringing me another glass...)

Dec 17, 07 - 08:58 pm Comment from: NeonRed

Cost of windows frustration and general user malaise= boku $
Cost of osX= i spend more on organic produce
I suspect i will live an additional 5 years because of SJ and Apple
Nowhere near the friggin everyday, constant, ever-present fear of somehow violating windows intrinsic, unexpected, undocumented programming milieu of hash. nuf said!

@ GmanMac "5 user family pack, that's $40.00 per Mac to upgrade to Leopard"

I would tend to think that a minority of people who buy the family pack actually put it on 5 computers. I bought the family pack for two computers in all.

Dec 17, 07 - 09:22 pm Comment from: LorD1776

What's a "Victoria's Secret"? Does is have something to do with women's underwear, or Jack the Ripper?

Dec 17, 07 - 09:38 pm Comment from: Ampar

Victoria's Secret Cocktail
Glass to Use: pint glass
Rum, raspberry (Bacardi Razz) - 1 1/2 shot
Cream - 1 splash
Fill with Ocean Spray Cranberry Juice.

Mixing Instructions:
Add all ingredients into pint glass and stir.

Dec 17, 07 - 09:51 pm Comment from: Hm...

Amused I am at how all the Windows droids come out of the woodwork to rail at Apple over this good press. Is Leopard the greatest ever? No. Did some people have problems while others ran perfectly fine? Of course. Was it Apple's most successful upgrade release? The numbers say, "yes."

But what really hits the Win-droids and has them ranting: Is Leopard miles ahead of Visa?
- Obviously.

It matters right.

On a regular pc box I can install Linux, Windows or a Hacked OSX. <---- which apparently isn't a joy to use due to hardware restraints etc. But can be good with the right box. Fortunately Apple MAKES that RIGHT box... so why build it.

Performance wise... this pc box is better suited for Linux.
Oh, now there's even more choice... hmmmm the flavour of Linux. But, I am no Linux science major. No propellers here on my head. Tried it. was painful... so I stick with OSX cos - I can GET my freaking work done.

---

On a Mac... guess what... I have choices too.
However, I love OSX 10.4.11. And I use it at the office, at home and on the road. Games... blah... no time... work is fun too - if you do what you enjoy!!! Choice again.

I don't yet own an Intel Mac... but when I do... in January I'll have choices. Quad or Eight core... hmmmmmm. well. We'll see.

Linux, Windows XP/Vista, Mac OS X - HEY all these run on a Mac too... so WE all have the SAME CHOICES!!!!

Most likely I will stick with Tiger or what comes pre-installed.
Sadly, Leopard did not sell as pre-installed either for re-packaging issues/costs or knowing that Leopard was not totally ready for everyone. But I remember 10.0 was an option also while OS9 was phasing out. ( heck - sometimes I still boot 9 for that odd application ).

I swear, I have installed ever Mac OS from 6.# to 10.4.11.
When Apple went OSX 10.0 -- that was the slowest OS ever - I cried. With ever 10.# increment something was changed and it had an effect - noticeable improvements. And, every full upgrade 10.#.# was an quite an over all improvement.

I would HONESTLY say that each upgrade 10.#.# the performance on most machines was ALWAYS snappier.

My favourites were 10.3.9 and 10.4.11.
WHICH also happen to have been the maturity / end cycle prior to an complete change that would start the cycle again.

Well - now it's Leopard. 10.5.1... and I have tried it out.
I like it. Particularly the coverflow browsing which I fell for in a second... scrolling through piles of pages and previewing them live. Totally a JOY to use. As for hierarchies - YES APPLE needs to re-instate these... remembering folder colours missing when 10.3.# came out... it took Apple a while to bring it back. Still wish it was the FOLDER that changed colour. Oh well, you get use to new things.

---

OK I wrote too much about nothing...

MY point was this.

WE all have a CHOICE. No matter what you think.

You install it or you don't. Simple.

Some many think one platform has more choices then another... I am very pleased to see Apple offering ways to have these choices. And hence why I still prefer Apple computers.

The guy who equated spending 129 for every major upgrade has a good point... but FAILS to see that one HAS the choice to LEAP frog.

The BEST part of APPLE has been that OSX has been compatible on OLDer MACHINES... and that the support and performance has actually LET / CHOOSE for SOME of us to keep our older machines. AND GUESS what -- they are RUNNING just fine. Surprisingly well I may add. Something not seen with Windows boxes

This is where VISTA lost. Basically after six years you NEEDED a new machine. Not for the Mac community... not until now... with 10.5 - BUT I STILL HAVE A CHOICE!!!! to buy new or not.
For me - It is time.

After 8-10 years on a iMac G3 266 or 400 Mhz OSX 10.4.11 is working PERFECTLY well. Beautifully in fact. I have four Machines, G3 Laptop 400 Mhz, 2 Imac G3 at 400 Mhz and a Dual Core PPC 1.25 Ghz G4. I chose to LEAP FROG the G5.

APPLE is that --- be different - choose different.
Is that CHOICE or WHAT?

Dougless

With Leopard... the time is for the NEXT 10 yrs of computing.

CHOOSE wisely on your next purchase... Leopard and it's succeeding (OS#) operating system shall run a decade with a similar legacy to that of 10.0 through to 10.4.11.

Otherwise... we the Mac community still have Linux and Windows to goof around with to run these Mac of today.

Choice.

I've done an erase and install on my iBook of 10.3 with RAM maxed out, and it's no where near as snappy or fast as 10.5.

I haven't tried it with 10.4 yet, nor should I.

I've only experienced two issues, both relating to printer drivers which was resolved by down-dating the printer drivers.

Other than that, I use CS3 photoshop, iwork, apache, mysql, php, and still learning Xcode. Haven't had any major dramas, this really is the best OS I've ever used.

For all those comparing the prices of 10.5 upgrades to Vista, are you counting the fact that most users of Vista are going to have to buy new hardware to run it on? Last time I checked I was runing Leopard on my year old Macbook just fine.

@Realist Dope...

True Dat!

Once Shepherd Jobs spins the facts, this will seem like the signing of the Constitution.

Still pales in comparison to Vista. Now that is an operating system.

Dec 18, 07 - 02:12 am Comment from: ChrissyOne

@ Ampar

CORRECT, but I think mine were doubles. >.<
beddy bye...

Dec 18, 07 - 06:03 am Comment from: hagar57

I installed Leopard on two machines yet. No issues whatsoever. My 1st Gen MacBookPro is much snappier now, dito for iMac 2.16 GHz C2D. The new finder is great, and boy, those network connections fly!
No complaints from this viking.

Dec 18, 07 - 06:10 am Comment from: British Mac Head

Well I have to agree that Apple should re-instate hierarchal menus from a folder in the dock but I don't want them to get rid of stacks either because I use them as application launchers now and so do many others people. One for each App type. I missed pop up windows from OS 9 and stacks kind of brought them back for me. Stacks work well for me but need the ability (as standard not a hack) to be able to have a cover icon for speed of stack recognition. I presume many people who want hierarchal menus from the dock are ex-Windows sufferers who were comfortable with the "All programs" hierarchal menu system within the "Start" thingy.

Anyway. to those who seem obsessed with pointing out Leopard's apparent bugs. It's not about bugs guys. it's about how they are dealt with. Apple have already released a point one update and will undoubtedly release another in due course to fix the occasional kernel panic some of us have been experiencing.

Also Leopard is not an upgrade it's a whole new OS. It's fully universal 64/32/PPC/Intel compatible. That's eight permutations of machine type in one binary. It is also a certified UNIX 03 OS which is something no Linux distro has achieved yet. I use Linux (Slackware and Fedora Core) for my web servers and even though Linux is a nice server OS it is NOT a UNIX but rather a UNIX-like OS. Both of these new OS X technologies are bloody hard to achieve and complicated code ends up with inevitable bugs. One good thing is there will be no spaghetti code in Leopard as Apple didn't have to support an old OS technology within the same code. So the bugs are easily ironed out in comparison to Vista, which has had to support at least some old legacy crap since the birth of MS-DOS. (Parmesan with your spaghetti anyone?)

So if all you can do is moan about the odd bug and how you hate stacks and the new dock then go and play with Vista for 6 months. I guarantee you will come crying back and welcome Leopard with open arms and by then both the back end bugs and front end cosmetic issues will be sorted out and modified.

For me, Leopard rocks!!!

It has minor issues still but it rocks. I have it installed on.

G5 dual 2.5 Ghz with 3Gb RAM
MacBook 2.0 Ghz Core2duo with 1Gb RAM
Mac Mini 1.66 Ghz coreduo with 2 Gb RAM
G4 iMac 1.2 Ghz with 750Mb RAM

All machines work well and a little quicker than they did with Tiger.

So far 2 kernel panics on the MacBook and 1 KP on the G5. None on the other machines. And I bought Leopard on day one and installed it as an upgrade (not clean install) on all 4 machines with no issues.

Anyone who had that blue screen issue during upgrade. It was caused by APE (Application Enhancer) which is not an Apple product but ties in tightly with the system. Not really Apple's fault.

So yes, Leopard has bugs but it was bound to. It's still very new, but stop whining. It could be a helluva lot worse. you could be suffering Vista. And as stress is a big life shortener take a chill pill.

As a comparison:
XP --> Vista == Five years of waiting, 7 years of development, poor user experience, annoying security prompts and nearly a year later and it still has major bugs and compatibility issues.


Tiger --> Leopard Eighteen months waiting, overall great user experience, New look not to everyones taste (but what is? I love it), a few bugs after a month and three weeks of release.

I think I backed the winning horse with Leopard and so did the rest of you Leopard users. Keep reporting bugs and wait. they will be fixed.

Good luck Vista sufferers and those who won't upgrade from XP to Vista or switch to Mac, Have fun for the next 5 - 7 years. I hope Windows 7 works out well for you. It will be strange for you to be still using an 11 - 13 year old OS when we Mac users are all working on cutting edge stuff. XP will seem almost antique in comparison by then eh!!!

"Leopard is the sixth version in as many years, "

Apple charges for service packs, Microsoft doesn't.

"there will be no spaghetti code in Leopard as Apple didn't have to support an old OS technology within the same code. "

Why? Because the core of the OS is 40 years old. There's no need to support an old OS. Leopard IS the old OS.

Real World,

I'd rather pay for an "Apple Service Pack" than receive a free "upgrade" to Windows. They should pay their customers for putting up with their awful OS.

That being said, Panther has been the best, most stable release of OSX. Still running it on a business machine. Bought Leopard, but still waiting...too many issues.

NPD: Leopard best selling Apple OS.
PC World: Leopard one of 2007 worst products.

Remember those strident voices of yesteryear that complained about Apple's feeble advertising strategy? If Apple can entice persons to buy Leopard at least the marketing department of Apple is hitting all cylinders. I'll wait for 10.5.2 or maybe 10.5.3.

Dec 18, 07 - 08:35 am Comment from: ChrissyOne

"Apple charges for service packs, Microsoft doesn't."

Microsoft would charge you for taking a dump if they could. Service packs can't have new features. Read Sarbanes-Oxley, dude.

Dec 18, 07 - 08:38 am Comment from: ChrissyOne

"Free" service packs, that is.