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Oct 30, 08 - 02:12 pm Comment from: Mac Daddy

If FW is dead, then why offer it on the MB Pro?

It's too early to have dropped FW. This was a mistake (yes, even Apple/SJ make mistakes). Otherwise, the new MacBooks are great.

Oct 30, 08 - 02:15 pm Comment from: Mac-nugget

I got one and we love it. Not having Firewire was not an issue. I have plenty of them on my MacPro.

"He pointed out that in 10 years, there won’t be any machines left that can play them."

10 years is a damn lifetime. Look at the differences between 1998 and 2008. The Sopranos hadn't even premiered yet.

Oct 30, 08 - 02:29 pm Comment from: Erk

10 years it will be gone? and thats a reason to drop it now?

poor show apple

Quit whining about the firewire or just get the dam pro. It's only the price of a cup of coffee a day for a half year more, or quit smoking for 3 months. You will be very happy with the Pro. Glossy big juicy screen. Great for watching movies and the speakers are loud.

Oct 30, 08 - 02:33 pm Comment from: HolyMackerel

The DisplayPort is bi-directional i.e. not only displays the Mac screen on a projector/TV, but can accept HD video coming in from an external source such as the 24" builtin iSight camera or an external video camera.

This wont help those who want target disk mode, FW hard drives or moving user accounts (unless Apple updates the MacOS for this), but it should help people wanting to view a video camera's footage to import only selected chunks.

The real reason for Firewire - Target Disk Mode. I'm an administrator for hundreds of Macs and I'm not sure how I could do my job without Target Disk Mode. If Apple want's to get rid of Firewire, they need to make Target Disk Mode work with USB.

"Quit whining about the firewire..."

Yeah, quit yer whining already! You'll have no use for FireWire in only 10 short years, a span that includes two more presidential elections and a world that's practically unrecognizable from today.

@bob

Already given up coffee, sugar and smoking to get my iMacs. Looks like clothes and taxes will next on the list if I take your advice.

But I would buy the cheaper new MacBook tomorrow if only it had Firewire. Then I could use it with my new Canon HD camcorder which -when I get it - will use DV tape which I favour.

Oct 30, 08 - 03:08 pm Comment from: alansky

The elimination of firewire from the new MacBook is one of the worst design decisions Apple has ever made. What a time for Apple to suddenly require their customers to go out and replace all their firewire peripherals with USB models! Nevermind that firewire is amazingly useful for transferring files, troubleshooting hard drive issues, etc., etc. etc. USB is useless for anything but connecting peripherals; and even then, portable USB drives are notorious for not working properly with laptops unless plugged into the wall via extra-cost adapter. Brilliant, Apple! Just brilliant!

I hate to be the one to break it to you all:

MOVE ON ABOUT FIREWIRE! MiniDV is crap quality (even when it was standard five years ago). Upgrade to HD or even a HHD-based camcorder. Film just can't compare to pixels unless you get film that's $100 a roll. The leading HD cameras have USB2. Firewire is on its way out on consumer products.

If you want firewire, get a pro system. That's what Apple wants you to do anyway. How else do you think they make money? Certainly not with software. Even the creative software is surprisingly cheap (compare Adobe). I know I'm going to get a lot of haters on this issue with firewire, but honestly the last time i used firewire was never. I know what it is, but everything I buy is USB because I have to move between Windows and Mac platforms at my school all the time, which I imagine Apple anticipates when making computers, unlike Windows-based computers that don't include anything but USB. This difference has led Apple to discontinue it in the computers that former Windows users won't miss.

Think bottom line.

Oct 30, 08 - 03:29 pm Comment from: nekogami13

All the whiney firewire advocates can buy the $999 macbook-it has firewire.
What's that?
It's not the aluminum one with the updated graphics and touchpad?
I thought all you cared about was firewire?

Isn't that why you cry, moan and bitch about not having the option to buy a macbook instead of the pro?

Oct 30, 08 - 03:50 pm Comment from: Predrag

Here, I'll say it again. If new MB had FireWire, NOBODY would ever buy MBP.

Before this refresh, MBP was significantly better than MB. It was faster, with better graphics, with FW800, and with sturdier, aluminium casing. After the refresh, the only thing that separates MB and MBP are two extra inches, Expresscard slot and FW port. If they DID put FW in MB, all those people who had Powerbooks and were ready to move on to MBP would just buy MB and save $700. Would anybody here honestly spend extra $700 just for two extra inches (of screen space, that is...) and an obscure slot they'll never use?

Until MBP pulls ahead and becomes significantly better and faster than MB, FW will remain a MBP-only port. And it still has long and bright future; vast majority of pro audio and video outboard gear uses FW, for all the reasons mentioned on these forums during the past two weeks.

Today, tapeless camcorders outnumber tape-based (MiniDV and HDV) by a ratio of abour 10:1. Furthermore, AVCHD seems to promise significantly better compression quality than HDV (duh... MPEG4 vs. MPEG-2; anyone surprised?). With the flexibility of tapeless clearly obvious, it is difficult to understand why would anyone purposly choose tape-based over tapeless these days.

Oct 30, 08 - 03:57 pm Comment from: Predrag

Not to mention that the US government seems to be forcing everyone to go digital (with their TVs, that is), which will result in population buying HDTV sets en masse this holiday season, it is obvious that those MiniDV tapes will quickly begin to look like old VHS-C did when MiniDV was introduced.

How many people still have a VHS-C camcorder? Or Sony 8mm camcorder? Or even Hi-8 camcorder? Or Sony Digital 8?? How many of those still use them?

The transition from SD to HD will be very swift, most likely significantly faster than VHS to DVD. Today, a tapeless HD camcorder can be had for a little over $400. Vast majority of those middle-class folks with children can effortlessly afford such a one-time expense.

Oct 30, 08 - 03:59 pm Comment from: alansky

Quit whining about the firewire or just get the dam pro. —bob

Is it really so hard to understand that some people, including many pros, want the latest technology and the smallest, lightest package possible? If Apple thinks that only rank amateurs buy MacBooks, they should think again.

Tape based recorders are cheaper and use Firewire. MacBooks are cheaper and should have Firewire. Eliminate Firewire from the Pros, since the pros don't need it.

Predrag, you're wrong. People don't need to buy a MBP to get FW if they're just getting it as a second computer for traveling. But, while traveling, many of us are still using (and will for years) current FW cameras and HDs. What's the deal? Stop pushing the big extra expense of a MBP for someone who has already invested in one or more Macs at home. If the MBP was the only computer someone got, then fine. But many of us have two or more Macs. Further, the biggest reason many of us get a MB has nothing to do with ports or other features. It has to do with SIZE. Two inches is a lot when traveling. The MBP's 15" size is too big for many of us for travel use.

Get over this nonsense suggesting we can all just get a MBP. The argument doesn't hold water.

HG Wells:

It's not that Apple wants you to buy an extra computer. If you just get a MBP you don't need another computer. So if you do want to go mobile you can use your laptop for both cases. In fact I use my laptop at school (graphic design) because it's better than all of their Macs. It might look weird to use my 15" laptop compared to the 20" plastic iMacs, but mine just goes. It's the whole point of a MacBook Pro. It outclasses even iMacs. Unless you're dealing with a ton of video, in which case you should be using a Mac Pro anyway…I don't know why I'm even arguing; people just argue this point for the sake of arguing it.

Oct 30, 08 - 04:26 pm Comment from: alansky

Here, I'll say it again. If new MB had FireWire, NOBODY would ever buy MBP. —predrag

Baloney! Some pros prefer the smallest, lightest package they can get, but just as many prefer the largest screen they can reasonably carry. And let's not forget that many people choose laptops as their primary home computer these days. Most of these users want the biggest screen they can afford, even if it means lugging a larger machine around when they go mobile. Those who can't afford the more expensive MBP will choose the MB, but take a look around in almost any coffee shop and notice how many big-screen laptops there are.

This isn't rocket science. Even if the MB and MBP were identical except for size (which they are not), some would pick one size and some would pick the other.

Read Pogue's full article, it's truly funny, and he writes the way he talks.

The part with Steve should have been printed in full, cause Pogue, actually gives in to Steve's logic. The interesting thing about Steve, when he gets asked a question, he always has an answer. Regardless of whether you agree, the guy always has a reason for the choices he makes. Woulda made the ideal politician if not for his brutal truthfulness.

Out of all the consumers, students buying MacBooks, how many were actually using FW? 1-10 is my guess. iPods do not use it, printers typically do not, camera's do not use it, and hard drives do not use it (typically, and all have USB).

Who does use FW on a MacBook? Those doing video editing. Yes, consumers are doing this, so for those that are, they need to either get a MB Pro, or get a MacBook and consider upgrading their aging camcorder (most won't have a brand new one, and if they do it'll have USB on it, so not an issue to upgrade to a MB).

For those Pro users that were budget folk, skating buy on a MB, sorry, you've been flushed out. You either spend $5k worth in re-buying software for Windows, or you upgrade to a true Pro users box in MB Pro. Yeah, Apple knows you are not going to throw the baby out with the bathwater over a port. It makes zero workflow or financial sense to do so.

The MB Pro still have FW 400/800 port, due to the fact that of those users, roughly 50%+ have some sort of FW device connected to them. It is mandatory it has it, but in the future USB 3.0 will arrive, pretty much killing off FW entirely.

FW is a great technology, it is just getting passed by, and more costly than USB, which is thriving and continues in it's development. USB will - for better or worse - be the future....

PS: Love live SCSI!

Oct 30, 08 - 04:53 pm Comment from: John

Dude, Steve Jobs did _not_ give an answer! Who gives a crap what will be playable in 10 years. I care about the fact that I have 3 video cameras right this moment, all of which have firewire (or iLink) and none of which use USB.

In 10 years they can kill FW if they want. Meantime this machine badly, badly needs it.

I don't know if anyone else noticed that, but I did. Nice one.

Oct 30, 08 - 05:48 pm Comment from: Touch

Here... solution. Please...

http://www.amazon.com/Firewire-800-9-6-Adapter-Rohs/dp/B000LGGAD4/ref=pd_cp_e_1?pf_rd_p=413863501&pf_rd_s=center-41&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B0000CDJPQ&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1HDTJQ5XCD1R7RV3T1C9

Oct 30, 08 - 06:37 pm Comment from: Sixvodkas

At best, USB 2.0 is 17% SLOWER than Firewire 400.

At worst, USB 2.0 is 70% SLOWER than Firewire 400.

Firewire 800 beats up USB 2.0, gives it a wedgie and takes its lunch.

USB 3.0? At BEST, it's scheduled for a 4.8 gbps data rate, which gets its ASS KICKED by 1394's planned 6.4 gbps fiber.

Yeah, go on and tell us why you like inferior USB again and again, but admit it, compared to Firewire, USB is the floppy drive of the tech world.

@Touch

"Designed for connecting FireWire 400 (1394a) device to FireWire 800 (1394b) port. "

won't help at all.

Oct 30, 08 - 07:03 pm Comment from: Macintosh

This Adapter looks legit:

http://www.usbfirewire.com/Parts/rr-527950.html

Oct 30, 08 - 07:06 pm Comment from: Macintosh

Nevermind. Your camcorder would need a "USB Download Option" to use this adapter...

Oh well, I'm sure a good adapter will be available in no time.

OMFG! Enough whining about Target Disk Mode! Get a USB stick, install OS X to that, and boot from that instead. Sheesh!

"Tape based recorders are cheaper and use Firewire. MacBooks are cheaper and should have Firewire. Eliminate Firewire from the Pros, since the pros don't need it."

Yes, but they didn't used to be, certainly not when Firewire was first introduced. It is indeed a fairly mature technology, and has rightly or wrongly been considered a pro level option all along. Apple is one of the only hardware makers to include it in their default configurations. Cool of them, to be sure, but USB does dominate the market, and there's not going to be any looking back as new hardware proceeds in that direction. Sucks maybe, but that's tech, folks.

I guess this is what Steve Jobs meant when he said he wants to skate to where the puck is going to be.

Pity.

I love FW Target Disk Mode!

The macbook $999 entry level has FireWire.
The macbook $999 entry level has FireWire.
The macbook $999 entry level has FireWire.
The macbook $999 entry level has FireWire.
The macbook $999 entry level has FireWire.
The macbook $999 entry level has FireWire.
The macbook $999 entry level has FireWire.
The macbook $999 entry level has FireWire.
The macbook $999 entry level has FireWire.
The macbook $999 entry level has FireWire.
The macbook $999 entry level has FireWire.
The macbook $999 entry level has FireWire.
The macbook $999 entry level has FireWire.
The macbook $999 entry level has FireWire.
The macbook $999 entry level has FireWire.
The macbook $999 entry level has FireWire.
The macbook $999 entry level has FireWire.
The macbook $999 entry level has FireWire.
The macbook $999 entry level has FireWire.
The macbook $999 entry level has FireWire.
The macbook $999 entry level has FireWire.
The macbook $999 entry level has FireWire.
The macbook $999 entry level has FireWire.

Oct 31, 08 - 09:55 am Comment from: lurker

@John - Right on!

In ten years the current, brand new Aluminum MacBooks will be door stops. Right now there are Mac users with thousands of dollars tied up in FireWire connected devices, such as audio mixers and interfaces, DV cameras, external hard drives, etc who cannot move forward with Macs. Why have Logic Express if you are not playing to the mid-level audio crowd, not the pros with unlimited budget, but people who are trying to develop their skills on a budget. Is the message "We don't want no stinking musicians using Aluminum MacBooks"?

The deal of the century for musicians with Firewire audio gear is the last gen black MacBook. Looks good on stage, with AppleCare you've got three years of guaranteed functionality. No slouch by any means.

Mr Pogue, you're behaving like shill. You raise the FireWire issue as if you agree that it's a problem, then claim that SJ talked you out of your point of view on the subject. I'm not buying that.

As for those people who say "Get over it, man," they're revealing their ignorance of what Macs are used for. Forget ten years from now. At this moment, FireWire is still in play for a lot of people. Is MiniDV obsolete? Ten years from now, yes, but as of today, it's still happening. And what about FireWire audio interfaces? How about the zillions of FireWire drives that smart people have used to create bootable backups. Yeah, I know, Intel Macs can boot from USB but they are measurably slower and I don't own one. What about the poor bastard who has to fix your MacBook when the hard drive dies? (Notice I said "when" not "if.") The lack of FireWire target mode makes this much more difficult. Will there be some sort of FireWire over Ethernet scheme that will allow this? Will someone make some sort of drive dock for the MacBook that will let you access the drive? Maybe someday. But as of now, when that drive takes a dump, you're screwed!