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What is harmony? What is RealNetworks. Oh my god, I'm dumb

Hey, you guys gotta stop putting Krispy Kremes down like that!!
I didn't hear a sound either

joe

D*mn. Just ruined another keyboard & screen when I sprayed my drink all over it.

Anybody live near Real's corporate headquarters? Was there any unusual noise recently? Maybe a sonic boom as Glaser fell to the floor?

I hear Krispy Kreme's had some troubles recently; they need Glaser to consume as much as possible.

why not dunkin donuts?

Don't worry about Krispy Kreme, between Glaser and Michael Moore, they have a healthy future ahead of them.

That headline made me blow snot out of my nose laughing.

in a related story...
"Earlier today Krispy Kreme announced that due to a problem they are recalling 15,000 containers of dounuts. In fact, today they swung by Rob Glaser's house and picked them up."

Glaser probably did complain bitterly about it, but his mouth was so full of doughnuts, no one could understand what he was saying.

Absolute classic MDN take!

I'd like it noted for the record. In all seriousness. Real SUPPOSEDLY has iPods that they test right? I mean, this whole bruha ha over making sure that their music worked on iPods and Real never even noticed it for a month and a half? Don't they test their songs and their software with the latest updates? What are they using to test their music? 2 doughnuts tied together with a string?

Jesus.

As an iPod owner and a supporter of all apple products I still find it embarrassing the infantile reporting of MDN with regards to Apple's competitors. I can understand it when it is done by the readers since most of them are perhaps young but the MDN editors must me at least 12 and should know better and possess more journalistic ethics. Let the competition die in their own sword, you don't have to criticize someone's food habits just because you don't approve of their products. Wait... I got this is what I want to say: Grow up MDN

DBS, MDN is appealing to its majority target audience... that's all.

Personally, I think it's infantile not to play with other music stores. It's music... from an artist... if I can buy from any brick n' mortar store...

Actually, that was what was funniest about this story--that it took people at least a month to notice. And it wasn't even Real that noticed! It was a customer who, I rashly assume, didn't get any feedback from Real so they dropped a note to CNET.

DBS, I think you have to take the "MDN take" with a grain of salt. They're trying to be humorous.

Besides, "Internet Journalism" is the next big oxymoron, right after "Military Intelligence."

(So I scroll down and what is my MDN Magic Word? "military" Spooky...)

I think the magic word can be a bit spooky too.

(This comment added thanks to the magic word "added")

Have any of the moaners that cry that Apple is stifling 'choice' ever considered - no seriously - that Apple's issue with Real isn't the 'music files' themselves, but rather the software needed to use those files.

FYI - if you didn't already know, and there's no reason that you shouldn't have known - Real's software assumes control of ALL of the music on the iPod.

Explain -rationally- why Apple would want this.

BTW, would Microsoft approve of Real hacking the xBox with their software so that Real's media would be compatible - even for the benefit of 'customer choice'? Would all the moaners chastise Microsoft if they shut down Real's software?

That would be 'two' rhetorical questions, wouldn't it?

Oh my goodness, Linux assumes all control of a PC!....
The PC maker is stunned!

You already gave your money to Apple for the iPod. Now Apple is mad that you won't be giving them more because you chose to not use iTMS. Whaaaaa...

And yes, we'd would chastise M$ if they shut out Real content on an xBox.

Zupchuck, does it bother you that you can't play a PlayStation game on an XBox, or vice-versa, even though the same titles are available fore both systems? This isn't that much different. Apple is protecting their business, that's all.

From another thread...

My argument is that Apple 'invented' the 'iPod'. Apple gets to 'choose' which software that they want to interoperate with it, not Real.

I think you need to consider what has been done - and what the 'collateral damage' is.

If I may... Apple disabled 'Harmony', the 'collateral damage' would be that Real's AAC files are now ALSO (unfortunately?) disabled.

And if you extend my 'observation' further, you'll notice that Apple doesn't seem to be worried about whether or not all of people's MP3s are legal - they still play WITH ITUNES! Get it? The optimum solution for Apple to SUPPORT is - iPod is 'controlled' by Apple iTunes software.

FWIW, I agree with you in-as-much that the iPod 'could' have more 'chooses' for legal downloads (perhaps more 'stores' available, WITHIN iTunes!). But as an Apple iPod user I'll 'side with' Apple in the belief that iTunes is the optimum software solution when using an iPod.

[Now Apple is mad that you won't be giving them more because you chose to not use iTMS. Whaaaaa...]

No, Apple is mad -with Real- that you won't be using software that they designed to be used WITH the iPod.

[And yes, we would chastise M$ if they shut out Real content on an xBox.]

Real is welcome to develop CONTENT -provided they get a license from Microsoft, which I'm sure MS would be only too glad to give real.

Again, it's the SOFTWARE that's the ACTUAL issue.

Doubt me? Look at how MS cracked down on 'Linux for the xBox'!

Any further debate is moot. You are obviously eager to have more 'stores' available to you. Maybe Apple will include them in future versions of ITUNES software. Maybe one day there'll be an 'Apple' (not Apple records ) as well as other music stores. All within iTunes software!

ndelc,

I'm not a gamer, so I don't care. But to answer your question, neither of these game consoles even begins to admit to being standards-based. It's funny that a good deal of tech writers talk about the closed system of standards-based files that the iPod will play (unlike WMA) when in fact it is the DRM of purchased music online that provides the closure.

Apple makes its real money on the player, not iTMS. The game console makers make their dough on the games (M$ loses lots of money on the xBox hardware). Apple isn't so much protecting it's business but that of the record companies on which it depends for iTMS. I will agree that, currently, the iTMS component that becomes available with an iPod does add value to Apple and the consumer.

MacBuddy,

As a consumer, are you satisfied in letting Apple determine which content you can buy online? If so, there isn't a beef. BTW, how would Apple determine the legality of MP3s on your iPod that were ripped from a CD? They can't, so they don't limit it. With DRM of online purchases, they can. So they do.

That's because nobody cares or uses an iPod with there service.

"Anybody live near Real's corporate headquarters? Was there any unusual noise recently? Maybe a sonic boom as Glaser fell to the floor?" - r8ix

Hmmm, a month-and-a-half ago... Mt. St. Helens began having a lot of earthquake activity underneath it around that time.

Again FWIW, I agree with you in-as-much that the iPod 'could' have more 'choices' for legal downloads (perhaps more 'stores' available, WITHIN iTunes!). But as an Apple iPod user I'll 'side with' Apple in the belief that iTunes is the optimum 'software solution' when using an iPod.

Unfortunately you seem 'stuck' with the notion that APPLE owes you more choices of 'download stores'. I'm merely trying to convince you that Apple gets to decide which SOFTWARE is used with the iPod - regardless of the number of 'stores' that are available to YOU as a consumer. Please try to reconcile the DIFFERENCE.

I'm sure that WHEN another company - including Real - were to offer up a music store that didn't demand the use of different software - ie: could be included IN the iTunes SOFTWARE; AND didn't usurp Apple's control of the iPod - that Apple would be only to glad to promote that the "iPod can get music from several download stores including from CDs".

Please take the time to read ALL of the responses that I give to you. This may prove to answer your questions more thoroughly.

Bottom Line: Apple is NOT a monopoly in this area:

1. You can buy an Apple iPod… or not. Buy one of the many, sexy, feature-laden, iPod-Killers out there.

2. You can use iTMS… or not. Rip your own CDs

3. You can use a Mac… or not. Use a PC

4. You can use ACC… or not. Use MP3, AIFF, etc.

5. You can use Real Music service… whoops. I forgot, that doesn't work with Macs.

The point is, Apple's terrible, no-good, evil, doomed-to-failure proprietary business scheme is succeeding wildly and if the rumored iPod Flash is true, everyone else will just be fighting over the crumbs. Then Apple might be considered a monopoly and they will probably consider "sharing" their proprietary technology for an appropriate "fee."

MacBuddy,

Apple is using DRM to control which stores you can download from. Real wanted Apple to open up the DRM so that other online stores could include the iPod as a target. Apple didn't agree. Real provided a hack (albeit one tha ceded complete control of the iPod to Real) to allow the iPod to be integrated with it's prodect. Apple still doesn't agree. But that's a fight between companies where those of us who would like choice in stores are held hostage.

And yes I did read all of the responses. Apple owes me nothing other than support of the products I buy from them. I am allowed to disagree with the scope of that support or the openess of their platform, aren't I?

If I were Apple, I'd be doing exactly what they are doing. It makes the most business sense right now. As a consumer, I may hold a different position. Whether you like them or not, one has to admit theat M$ is a great business.

... I concluded too quickly...

One consequence of choice is a lower price. Right now, you pay what Apple demands. If FairPlay DRM were licensed to others, then pricing might nudge down (assuming record companies allow it, too - another story).

I am assuming that Apple would only allow iPod owners to access FairPlay DRM-encoded content. I have no beef with that.

Apple still has compelling integration of their hardware and software. Even if others have better hardware and/or more useful features, I don't believe they have a right to access iTMS or FairPlay DRM content.

I remember when there were Mac clones. Better hardware for less money! Then Apple pulled the licensing for clones, bought Power Computing and cease support of Mac OS on Power Computing boxes (I imagine others, too). Mac OS still worked until 9.1 on a Power Computing Box even though support stopped around 8.6. By then, the Power Computing platform was dead and several years old (unlike the iPod which is alive and growing).

zupchuck is engaging in major revisionist history here.

"I remember when there were Mac clones. Better hardware for less money!"

Apple pulled the plug on the clones because they weren't up to snuff.

And the rest of the marketing shpeel about choice and equity and blah blah blah... seems to come straight out of Glazer's ass. Save it.

[Apple owes me nothing other than support of the products I buy from them.]

Yes, you buy an iPod and it is meant to use several supported music file types - AAC being only one of them. However, iTunes music software is the only SUPPORTED software.

[ I am allowed to disagree with the scope of that support or the openess of their platform, aren't I?]

If you disagree to use iTunes software on an iPod, then Apple is under no obligation to support you "when something does go wrong". If you choose to use software that is not supported by Apple, then you can not expect Apple to 'fix it' or maintain the change you made.

Back to the car analogy, if you install a PepBoys alternator in your Ford vehicle while your Ford vehicle is still under warranty, then I believe Ford has every right to void your warranty if it will effect in any way the performance of the vehcle WHILE it is under warranty. And to your posit that Ford has no right to remove the part, well if under warranty Ford requires that you use Ford parts - I don't know, but didn't you signed an agreement when you bought or leased the car.

Try to replace a part on a Dell while it's still under warranty and see how co-operative they are when the time comes when something is broke during the warranty period. Oh, and Apple doesn't break peoples' iPod, or their ability to use it WITH iTunes - as intended, just the Harmony software - which unfortunately has the by-product of rendering Real AAC files 'broken'.

(As an aside this is one of the many money making schemes that auto makers use to milk money from customers who lease cars. And this is why Midas can guarantee their brake jobs - they've replaced all the brake parts, for $600 worth of theirs!)

Why is it okay for MS to 'break' the use of Linux software on the xBox, (and by 'okay' I mean - NO ONE has stood up to MS for doing so!), but not okay for Apple to 'break' the use of Harmony on the iPod?

And why doesn't Sony complain that their software doesn't work on a GameCube?

You are kidding right? The Apple OS license was HORRIBLE! The hardware was not better, you have to be smoking crack to think that. You had to have CD-ROM toolkit to use your CD-ROM drive!

From a service standpoint, we will not even service these machines because we are a Mac only shop.... and clones were never Macs. They ran the OS, but there were always problems that you would not get on a real Mac. You get what you pay for (if you are lucky). Those companies like UMax that made clones put out CRAP.... and charged for it! And people bought it! It is amazing how so many people look at the $$$ and never look at what they are getting for their money.

We had a guy come into the shop today with an old iMac 233.... it had some serious problems, big repair bill quote, basically more economical to just buy a new used iMac off of eBay or buy a new machine. He said, and I quote, "I am not sure I will get another Mac, this one did not last too long." Well, the iMac (his iMac) was made in '98, that is 6 years ago! And he used it daily until it gave up the fight.

You will be hard pressed to find any machine that runs daily for 6 years that does not have a serious problem (hard drive, logic board... ect.) in that time. So he is thinking about a PC because they are less money and should last longer.

There is only so much you can do with these people. Just gotta let them learn from their own mistakes.

The Dude abides.

I guess in conclusion everybody here agrees that less choice is more, Apple should lock out iPod users from downloading from other stores, and nobody should mess with the temple of iPod.

We rail agasint the Winblows lemmings for the lack of independence and complete conformance, yet find every chance to argue for complete conformance and dependence to Apple's products.

I didn't disagree to use iTunes on my iPod (BTW, I don't own an MP3 player, but I do use iTunes on Macs and PCs). I chose (hypothetically) to expand my options in purchasing legal music for my iPod. And of course I don't expect Apple to maintain that choice. I DO expect them not to muck with it without telling me. Apple doesn't muck with your Word files, and make them work only with AppleWorks, do they?

BTW, the alternator - if it died under warranty, I'm going back to Ford. And if Ford screwed up my Pep Boy's alternator while fixing something else because I chose to replace my out-of-warranty alternator elsewhere, I'm suing Ford. But the warranty for my iPod alternator is only 1 year unlike Ford's! And what agreement did you sign when you bought an iPod? Did it include the right for Apple to trash your purchased music if Apple didn't like where you bought it?

I never said it was OK for M$ to break the use of Linux on an xBox, don't imply so. I didn't say Apple broke the iPod, only made Harmony purchases useless (or at best much lower quality after all the encoding/decoding to wash out the DRM).

Once FairPlay is licensed, my complaint will subside.

Please don't confuse what's good for the consumer with what's good for Apple or the record companies. Get past the Apple-Real Networks fight for what it isn't - a sullying of the iPod, but making your $$ available for music downloads to others other than Apple.

Frankly nobody will be able to offer an online music store that includes the iPod without FairPlay because Apple will not license FairPlay (it doesn't have enought pressure in the market to consider it). But I'm sure when Apple is forced to license it, it will make it sound like the best thing ever and insanely great. It's all about DRM...

"And if Ford screwed up my Pep Boy's alternator while fixing something else because I chose to replace my out-of-warranty alternator elsewhere, I'm suing Ford."

Ford never screwed up your Pep Boy's alternator. The alternator simply became incompatible with your vehicle due to improvements that Ford made to it's electronics system. If you had used an authorized Ford replacement alternator as suggested, it would still be compatible and supported.

Maybe you could still use the Pep Boy's alternator on an alternative vehicle produced by Pep Boy's, or Wal-Mart, or Napster, or Dell, or ... oh, none of those make a vehicle that you have any desire to purchase? I'm surprised...

[Apple should lock out iPod users from downloading from other stores]

No, just from using software other than iTunes.

[and nobody should mess with the temple of iPod]

Are customers allowed the 'freedom of choice' to mess with xBox?

[I didn't disagree to use iTunes on my iPod (BTW, I don't own an MP3 player, but I do use iTunes on Macs and PCs)]

But, in order to use Real's downloads you must forfeit iTunes as your music software. Did you forget?

[I chose (hypothetically) to expand my options in purchasing legal music for my iPod. And of course I don't expect Apple to maintain that choice.]

Currently your choices in purchasing legal music for an iPod are CDs and iTMS. Apple doesn't SUPPORT other stores presently.

[I DO expect them not to muck with it without telling me.]

Apple did tell 'us' that future updates may effect the use of Harmony. And your files will still work, just not on an iPod.

[Apple doesn't muck with your Word files, and make them work only with AppleWorks, do they?]

You are welcome to use any 'application' software on your Mac that you choose to, Apple won't support any other OS. iTunes is part of the iPods 'OS' - or at the very least, part of it's operating software.

[the alternator - if it died under warranty, I'm going back to Ford.]

As you would be entitled to.

[if Ford screwed up my Pep Boy's alternator while fixing something else because I chose to replace my out-of-warranty alternator elsewhere, I'm suing Ford.]

Well, good luck with that. However, sarcasm aside - you'd be within your rights.

[And what agreement did you sign when you bought an iPod?

When you begin using your new iPod, Apple assumes that you've read the EULA and agree to abide by it.

[Did it include the right for Apple to trash your purchased music if Apple didn't like where you bought it?]

I think you music is still available, just not through iTunes or the iPod.

[I never said it was OK for M$ to break the use of Linux on an xBox, don't imply so.]

I never meant you personally. I was trying to illustrate a point. Unsuccessfully, apparently.

[I didn't say Apple broke the iPod, only made Harmony purchases useless]

That appears to be the one and the same to you.

[(or at best much lower quality after all the encoding/decoding to wash out the DRM).]

Speak to The 'Big Four' regarding DRM. Apple is only doing so to placate them. But can't currently sell download music without it. No one can. You know this!

[Once FairPlay is licensed, my complaint will subside.]

Or if more 'stores' are available from 'within' iTunes software. Ask Apple.

[Please don't confuse what's good for the consumer with what's good for Apple or the record companies.]

iTunes married to the iPod is good for the consumers. Many consumers seem to agree. So much so that iPods, have 91.7% marketshare. Why? Is it because 'it just works'!?

[Get past the Apple-Real Networks fight for what it isn't - a sullying of the iPod,]

Again, I disagree. iTunes is the prescribed software for the iPod.

[but making your $$ available for music downloads to others other than Apple.]

Which could be done by adding more 'stores' within iTunes.

[Frankly nobody will be able to offer an online music store that includes the iPod without FairPlay because Apple will not license FairPlay]

Yet.

[it doesn't have enought pressure in the market to consider it]

Probably.

[But I'm sure when Apple is forced to license it,]

Why will they be forced to? Everyone seems happy with iTMS.

[it will make it sound like the best thing ever and insanely great.]

Well Steve either learned to do this from Bill or Bill from Steve.

[It's all about DRM...]

Of that, there is no doubt.

So what took so long for Glaser to notice? He made such a stink when he put Harmony out there with anti-Apple petitions and all.

After all that noise, evidently, he still didn't have enough iPod customers to make another stink. (iPod users aren't so dumb then to download Real's garbage. They knew their music wasn't going to last long, so even 49 cents wasn't a bargain.)

It just would have been an embarrassment to him.

That was my thought exactly! One wonders when/if anyone at Real noticed.

Guys like Rob Glaser think and plan out battles.

Guys like Bill Gates think and plan out wars.

Guys like Steve Jobs think and plan our wars while establishing legacies and creating dynasties.

Lots of Apple kool-aid being drunk here. Wow. Glad the SJ Reality Distortion Field isn't reaching through my thick skull!

People fighting everything that even faintly slights Apple, yet we all agree that DRM is evil and reduces choice. Go figure.

And sorry, multiple "stores" within iTMS under the same restrictive DRM is not more choice when key-holder is the same for them all.

I now understand Andrew Kantor and why he read The Cult of Mac

Zup,

[sorry, multiple "stores" within iTMS under the same restrictive DRM is not more choice when key-holder is the same for them all.]

All things considered the DRM is currently better than nothing. You know what it 'allows' for. However, I would agree no DRM would be BEST.

Regarding 'multiple stores' - did the Apple Store within a store at CompUSA work? Well yes, it kind of did. Certainly, if the CompUSA staff were just a little less Anti-Apple it would have faired better. I'll never understand why these guys won't appreciate 'that a sale is a sale'. Would a waiter refuse to sell liver and onions to a customer - because they didn't 'like' it? In BUSINESS, that makes no sense. (As an aside, I was at RadioShack last Friday inquiring about a FireWire cable. The 'sales' guy didn't think that the 'HP iPod' was a good idea. When questioned, he answered that he didn't like HP. Can you believe that?)

Regarding your comment on 'key-holder'. Microsoft is the 'key-holder' of its OS as is Apple of theirs. Neither will 'allow' you to modify the workings of THEIR product. You may ADD to it - by developing, developing, developing programs that run ON their OSes. But, changing THEIR product is vorbotten.

BTW, are all the stores at a mall the exact same store? Is it possible for any mall to have a BonMarche AND a Target on the property? I mean other than rent, house-keeping and security why does the owner of the 'property' care who their tenants are?

[People fighting everything that even faintly slights Apple... Go figure.]

Criticism of Apple - or MS - for ACTUAL faults, serves ALL of us. Bitching because you can't have 100% YOUR way is unproductive.

[I now understand Andrew Kantor and why he read The Cult of Mac] and this [Lots of Apple kool-aid being drunk here. Wow. Glad the SJ Reality Distortion Field isn't reaching through my thick skull!]

I've offered a reasonable argument, and I haven't called you names. But now, you've resorted to insulting me. As you wish.

It's about time people started seeing Apple for what they are - every bit as fascistic as Micro$oft.

---every bit as fascistic as Micro$oft.---

hahaha.. there's no way you could have come up with that word without knowing the word 'fascist' which is.. of course an adjective and a noun.. so.... why not call Apple fascist..?

....We have a team of English majors looking into this bizarre butchery of the English language.

People fighting everything that even faintly slights Apple, yet we all agree that DRM is evil and reduces choice. Go figure.
--
Huh.. Copy Protection is new? The reason its in your face with Digital Music is because it's so easy.. Copy Protection with any other format is the same, except it's difficult so that difficulty is enough to dissuade bootlegging.. DUH!

Reduces choice? Here's a choice.. the Beatles form in 2004 as opposed to the early sixties and never make any music because everything they make is copies and distributed through p2p..

as a result they make no $$$ and never end up making Revolver, Rubber Soul or Sgt. Peppers, etc...

Some choice..

Having said that.. I ask you.. how many people do you know have Dual VCR's so you can rent a movie from Blockbuster and copy it.. how many people are willing to spend the money and take the time to steal?

With digital music it's made so incredibly easy that you HAVE to enforce it with software/technology.. sooo why are you complaining? Because it's software that's stopping you as opposed to your own laziness? Got it..

Copy protection isn't new. But multiple, incompatible DRMs is. When the DRM is consistent across the board, your choice will be greater and the artist is protected. The rest of your arguement really doesnt' apply here. But it is a valid point about protecting artists' material.