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What a shitty attitude. Apple won't make a computer in that form factor and offers us an overpriced, underpowered, overheating poor excuse for a netbook called the Air.

Nov 02, 09 - 10:08 am Comment from: British Mac Head

Well do you blame them. Good move Apple

Nov 02, 09 - 10:10 am Comment from: British Mac Head

Billy Bob, OS X is sold separately as an upgrade. Ti be used on On Apple branded hardware only. That's why it's si cheap compared to Windows 7ista ultimate. You can't have your cake and eat it pal.

Nov 02, 09 - 10:14 am Comment from: Mr. Reeee

Good.

WANT a Mac?
BUY a Mac!

Billy Bob Gaits: What a shitty attitude. Apple won't make a computer in that form factor and offers us an overpriced, underpowered, overheating poor excuse for a netbook called the Air.

You're quite mistaken there. The Air with its Core 2 Duo is far faster than the crippled netbooks with their weak Atom CPUs.

You want a Porsche engine, you buy a Porsche.

You want a Swiss Bank Account, you go to Switzerland

You want a Rolex, you buy a Rolex.

You want Mac OS X, you get an Apple computer.


so far I'm one for four in that list :-(

This crap reminds me of the kit car from the 1980's that mounted a fake Ferrari 308 body on a Pontiac Fiero. Very tacky and very low class.

And now the sore loser attitude when the licensing agreement is broken, then bitching about it, AND then blaming Apple for cutting off someone else's dishonest activity. What gall.

Nov 02, 09 - 10:23 am Comment from: breeze

If the incompetent competition thinks that the way to level the innovation and IP playing fields is to try and pry Apple and it's the Mac OS apart and force it to license or otherwise, let them all take advantage of it, they are all in for a rude awakening.

Incompetence and lack of innovating technological prowess is their hallmark, and wanting access to Apple's platforms and access to it's IP is proof of this incompetence.

Michael Dell, Balmer, Pystar and all other imitating, intimidating and stagnating monkeys: Your mother's can all be real proud of your lackluster achievements. Take a tip from Apple : Think Different...

Nov 02, 09 - 10:26 am Comment from: Mormegil

Ohhhhhhh, so THAT'S why OS X stopped working on my Newton

This will only egg hackers on to challenge Apple even more. At least these netbook users are running OS X and not XP and all of the people I know running it have purchase a retail OS X copy. Apple is not going to make any profit margin at offering Mac laptops for under $300 anyway (even Dell has stated publicly they hate netbooks, low profits). An Atom powered netbook is no challenge to Apple as there is no comparison on performance to Apple's C2D and above processor offerings. Apple sells computers to the high end of the market. They will never sell a cheap netbook for under $300.

Is not Apple enjoying the best sales quarters of it's company history? Why waste time on this? Are netbooks really a factor here? How about offering an ads only based OS X for netbooks with Atom processors? Unlock for $100 or something? Make this into a business opportunity for the low end market Apple will never sell hardware to?

Nov 02, 09 - 10:52 am Comment from: January 24, 1984

Clearly they have something coming. That something will have some similarities with netbooks. Best to eradicate any comparisons now.

Apple really loves to help foster that whole "evil fascist" cloud that's growing over their heads.

Nov 02, 09 - 11:11 am Comment from: cptnkirk

I think they're doing this because of the Psystar fiasco. they can't let the netbook thing continue and challenge Psystar at same time. they must act to protect their EUL and their IP.

While hacking a netbook, I've discovered that there are a lot of "would be" Mac buyers that are completely enamored of OS X. Once they start using it, they use it more and more. I think this will lead many to upgrade to a real Mac.

My netbook is the first PC I've ever bought. I own seven Macs and have used Macs exclusively since 1991. Apple needs a mobile, introductory Mac equivalent to a Macmini. $999 for the Macbook is too pricey. How about a $599 or $799 offering for the
uninitiated Mac user?

Nov 02, 09 - 11:15 am Comment from: alansky

@Billy Bob Gates:

Quit yer whining, moron.

R2, you're an idiot. So, any person or company that wants to exercise control over their intellectual property is deemed an "evil facist". Your type of hyperbole is the worst in the world because it devalues the true meaning of words, bastardizing language. "Evil" and "Facist" are descriptors that should be saved for the real thing. Whine about how everything should be free, and how it's all about 'You' if you like, but quit tossing egregious labels; especially where they are as idiotic as your last post.

Nov 02, 09 - 11:37 am Comment from: Jubei

Good move Apple. You want a Mac then buy a Mac. Can't afford one now? Then save your money till you have enough.

Nov 02, 09 - 11:38 am Comment from: hardmanb

I am still waiting to see who the "deep pockets" are behind Psystar.

The "if you can't compete with them"...then "steal their (intellectual) software developments and destroy their business plan and business advantage" is despicable and should be prosecuted.

If you don't like what others are doing well, then do it yourself and compete honestly. Don't be evil.

@Its a rumor,

For Apple, the "uninitiated Mac user" who isn't willing to spend a thousand dollars on a computer is not worth their time. They care about profit margins and following your suggestion would erode those profits.

Remember when Tim Cook said that they "can't build a great computer for $399" in response to the netbook hype? What he really meant was that they can't build one for $99 while jacking the price up to $399 in order to make a fat profit. It's pretty much the same for anything under $999 where only the Mac mini exists.

As long as they can maintain a core base of people like alansky who will pay them billions of dollars every year for overpriced machinery like the MacBook Air, Apple feels they're on the right track. Any threat to that, like the Hackintosh community, must be extinguished.

@ It's a rumor
'...While hacking a netbook, I've discovered that there are a lot of "would be" Mac buyers that are completely enamored of OS X. Once they start using it, they use it more and more. I think this will lead many to upgrade to a real Mac. ...'

Why?

If these '"would-be" Mac buyers' have not bought a Mac, and are running OS X so well that they're "completely enamored of" it, why would these cheap computer users ever buy a Mac?

From your description, they've already chosen not to pay the money, and are happily using OS X anyway.
Where's the incentive for these people to open their wallets to Apple?

Other hardware makers are profiting from Apple's hard work to make this great software.
Apple would be correct and smart to shut down the hacking.

@Sparky,

I had evil and fascist in quotes for a reason.

Nov 02, 09 - 11:52 am Comment from: KingMel

I seriously doubt that the hacked netbooks use a valid (paid for) copy of the Mac OS. So Apple is losing absolutely nothing in terms of revenue by preventing this, and might actually end up gaining a few Mac Book customers.

Apple may be losing some valuable good will from people who enjoy tinkering with new things like MacOS X netbooks, and who might come up with some useful upgrades in the open source software world.

Nov 02, 09 - 11:54 am Comment from: Mr. Reeee

If you can't afford a new Mac, there's a very simple solution; Buy a used Mac. Check out craigslist for local sellers, or eBay if you're stuck in the boonies.

You can get one that's a couple of years old for about half the cost of a new one. It should last for quite a few more years... yeah, Macs are like that.

I've got a seven+ year old Titanium PowerBook that's still going strong!

Nov 02, 09 - 12:05 pm Comment from: Predrag

Apple, much like many other businesses, has a clearly defined and fairly consistent business strategy. It relies on building hardware products, as well as developing wide range of software for those products. Many components of that software are not available for retail sale (Mac OS X, iPhone OS, iLife apps, as well as other applications and tools that are included with Mac OS and iPhone OS, as well as development tools for both, etc). Apple also sells their hardware on an open global market. They package their products (hardware/software/services) and sell this package, setting the price as they see fit. Apparently, the strategy is working very well for them, since the public perceives these prices as fair (otherwise, the public wouldn't be buying).

To say that Apple jacks up the price on their hardware (compared to some arbitrarily chosen piece of hardware from another maker) is incredibly myopic. Ordinary OEM builders (such as Sony, Dell, HP, Fujitsu...) pay Microsoft a license for the OS (to the order of $40 or so), then compensate the expense for that license by installing demo crapware from various software vendors. They have practically zero expenses for the OS component on their hardware (crapware fees essentially practically paying for MS license), so their R&D;expenditures are used mainly for putting together various components from other manufacturers and perhaps designing a box for them.

There is a reason why perceived profit margins on Apple hardware are so high; solid part of those profits went right back into development and support of superb software.

What is interesting is how when one compares an iMac to a truly comparable all-in-one computer from another manufacturer (and in all-in-one market, suddenly there are very few devices to compare), the iMac comes out as cheap, or even cheaper than the competitors. When actual R&D;must be done in order to build and sell a computer, it has to be paid for somehow.

Hackintosh community is not a reasonable threat to Apple's business model yet, but the "netbook" space is the one area where there is a potential for the threat becoming serious. Much like piracy of some software being a threat to the viability of the developer, hacking an OS and putting it onto a "netbook" or any other non-Apple hardware is undermining the business model that threatens the existence of Apple.

Does anyone here really believe we would actually HAVE a sustained Mac platform to work on if Apple was somehow FORCED to compete in the razor-thin profit netbook market space?

For Apple, the "uninitiated Mac user" who isn't willing to spend a thousand dollars on a computer is not worth their time.

That's because they're not. Take a look at Dell's revenues and profit margins. Apple doesn't want to make crap, and it's just not feasible to make a decent product with the kind of margin that Dell and the other netbook makers have to live on.

-jcr

So? Just don't update to 10.6.2 or stick with Leopard.

Apple won't separate OSX from its factory hardware because it's afraid of having to support the near-infinite number of hardware combinations that Windows and Linux desktop users have.

It's fair to want to control the final outcome of your product, and I don't blame Apple for refusing to build netbooks.

It does seem petty, though.

I'm not sure who this really is going to affect, though. Those people with "hackintosh" netbooks will simply refuse to upgrade to 10.6.2 It won't prevent people from making "hackintoshes". I'm sure it will be a matter of days before some Finnish or Swedish hacker figures out a way around it, anyway...

Apple gained a wealth of incoming customers due, in part, to Vista and its many, many imperfections. With Windows 7 performing significantly better than Vista and rivaling XP, I wonder what will happen to the flow of customers. I assume many of them will be willing to stick with Windows, since they no longer have the "Vista Blues"

I like my Macbook just fine, and probably will continue to purchase Macs as notebooks, but using Windows 7 at work and at home has given me hope that people like me will have several good options to choose from.

Nov 02, 09 - 12:16 pm Comment from: Predrag

R&D that goes into Mac OS X, iLife and other software that comes with every Mac is not a proportionate component of a price of a Mac. Regardless of the retail price of that Mac (be it $500 Mini or $3,500 MacPro), same software goes on each of them. Therefore, each sold Mac is expected to recover equal proportion of the R&D budget (actually the part of it spent on Mac OS and other Mac software development and support).

As we know, Apple's profit margins on these tend to be in the 30s. Therefore, for a $3,500 MacPro, they are recovering some $1,200 in profits. However, a Mac Mini will only fetch around $200. A $500 netbook would have to cost $300 to make in order to get the nominal profit, which is literally impossible to do with Apple's manufacturing and design standards. Not to mention the amount of damage it would do to the $1,000 MacBook sales.

Nov 02, 09 - 12:26 pm Comment from: Mr. Reeee

Netbooks are a fad with a high rate of return. Sure, they work for some users who understand and accept the performance and feature limitations of netbooks. It's people who purchase netbooks thinking they will replace their full-featured/performance computers who are in for a jolt... and return the things.

Even putting aside the low-to-zero profitability of netbooks, Apple specializes in and sells user SATISFACTION. They are not interested in selling products that frustrate and infuriate their end-users.

Many Mac users, myself included, had no idea of what type of potential was hidden away in their Macs. The fact that Apple has always designed and built machines that have the expansion potential to do almost anything (with third-party add-ons) via built-in FireWire, USB, Ethernet, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, high-quality displays, full-sized keyboards, etc. is a very real part of the Mac mystique.

Selling cheap, underpowered machines that would detract from Apple's reputation is something Apple is not interested in doing. The netbook makers have that segment of the market fully covered. Even Microsoft appears to have has little regard for netbooks, citing them as profit killers.

Nov 02, 09 - 12:33 pm Comment from: breeze

@R2:

You're not only an idiot you're an ignorant one. Apple has since it's breakout maintained an unrivaled and rapidly growing "core base" of loyal customers that is the envy of every company in the world. They are all individuals who appreciate the trouble free, transparent, user friendly and superior computing experience Apple has to offer them above any other available.

These loyal customers all appreciate Apple's new innovative offerings and willingly embrace them by purchasing them, no one forces them to.

Since Apple always leads the industry with it's new hardware offerings and there is never anything comparable to these new products they certainly are never overpriced.

Apple is a choice never a trap.

If it is too expensive - don't buy it. Does the 'Macs are overpriced crowd' go to Black Bird and demand lower prices their dinner, complain because Hugo Boss charges too much, want Ferrari to drop an engine in their Fiesta, moan about the price of a 3 bedroom condo because they can only afford a one bedroom apartment?

Apple can charge what they want to. Obviously the market is telling Apple they can or they would be going out of business. The '...overpriced crowd' are not Apple's market. If you want something save up and buy it or join the rest of America and charge it and pay it off. Quit whining about why you can't have something and do something about it. Get a temporary second job and sock the price of a used Mac away then buy it. Do something about your situation.

Oh wait - it's easier to complain. Complaining and being a victim have replaced baseball as America's national pastime.

I know that if I sent one of these complainers my MBP they would complain that I missed a finger print when I cleaned it up or it was shipped standard and next day. Life may not be fair but who mandated it had to be. Every day I become a bigger fan of Larry Winget.

...and NOT next day.

Apple never "supported" the Atom processor -- the Atom was a happy recipient of compatibility with Intel's other chips. Also, we all know Intel has been lobbying Apple to adopt the Atom on some of it's future product offerings. Perhaps this is simply confirmation that Apple has closed the door on the Atom in favor of other chip designs?

I can't believe some some people have the temerity to bitch because a product won't work in a manner for which it was never intended. Remember, the only legal way to get a copy of Snow Leopard without buying a new machine is to purchase an upgrade copy for $29. How many of those Hackintoshes are running legal copies of Leopard (or Snow Leopard, even) to begin with. Methinks not many at all.

Nov 02, 09 - 12:52 pm Comment from: F. Maxwell

@R2

I'm sorry that you don't have the kind of income where you can afford a Mac, but Apple is a business, not a philanthropic organization, so don't whine when they don't slash their profit margins for people like you or let you use their OS without buying their hardware.

Apple's computers are not overpriced. Anyone who says that they are is simply uninformed and/or stupid. Tell me where else you can get a computer with a 27" screen that has 2560x1440 pixels and all of the other features of an iMac 27" for $1699? Computer World magazine called it "Stunning." The best laptops made are Apple. Even Consumer Reports gets that, awarding Apple the top spot in each category.

You're the same kind of person who thinks that any car that costs more than a Hyundai is "overpriced."

Nov 02, 09 - 01:13 pm Comment from: Jim - TIV

@ R2

lol bro... you're "evil & fascist" post is snagging them just as fast as a Zune Tang thread, good job.

It's in Quotes for a reason people...

Nov 02, 09 - 01:15 pm Comment from: MacTony

and the crying has begun......... Evil Apple is only interested in profit margins. They should give their OS away and destroy their current business model. As a shareholder, I am sure glad they don't listen to the idiots.

Nov 02, 09 - 01:17 pm Comment from: MacTony

OT, but I received my Magic Mouse over the weekend. Absolutely the best mouse that I have owned.

Smart marketing, tease them by allowing them to play with the Mac OS then get feed back by percentage of users. That give a view if who will use it and then add in Microsoft Bob's that will switch.
No put the brakes on it, create a noise, and pop there on version of the net book and sell the Hell out of it.

Smart!

Did anyone see that one?

Right move, Apple. If users want to experience the crappiness of Netbooks, then let them suffer with an inferior OS as well.

There are plenty of used iBooks for sale that are more cost-effective than buying a new piece-de-merde netbook.

Nov 02, 09 - 01:26 pm Comment from: cogitoergomac

So much BS from people who don't know what they are talking about. Kind of like Windoze users dissing Macs.
1. I can afford my and my family's Macs. We own an iMac, an Air, an MBP 15, two MacBooks, two Minis, and two Apple TVs, several iPhones, etc. Much as I like my wife's MacBook Air, it is substantially bigger when open on an airplane lap tray than the Dell Mini; that's why I wanted to try this.
2. I bought a Dell Mini 10v, in part because I wanted the fun of doing it, and I wanted something small to carry around for short trips.
3. I own a 5-pack of Snow Leopard and two individual copies [for my office machines: the MBP and the Dell]. Granted, even though I bought the license for a copy of Snow Leopard, that doesn't necessarily give me any right to install it on an unsupported platform. I am simply responding to the broadside, specualtive allegations of piracy some have leveled here with zero proof.
4. Installation on the Dell had its challenges, but it was pretty rewarding to get Snow Leopard going.
5. Apple has the absolute right to cut off Atom support, just like it has the right to block Palm from using iTunes.
6. I don't think Apple products are overpriced. That's not why I tried this little experiment. I think they are oversized. There's a difference.
7. While the Mini is cheap, it is most definitely not underpowered for its intended use. On my "MacBook Nano," I have a 120gb iTunes library, including movies I watch and over 7000 ALAC tunes and about 2000 iTunes+ tunes. I have a 40,000+ iPhoto library, I run VMware Fusion 3.0 with XP, etc., etc. Fusion is a bit slow, but it works. I run Pages, Numbers, Mail, iCal, & MS Office.
8. It's not pretty but it works. And everyone who sees it in action says one word: "cool." I would gladly pay 750-1000 for an Apple version.
9. I remember my original Duo machines. They were very compact and had a nice dock to go with them. I took them everywhere. I wish Apple still made something like that.

HEY! Apple waited until Windows 7 was out.
Quit your bitchin'.

Nov 02, 09 - 02:26 pm Comment from: auramac

You want cheap, go to the dollar store. Or e-Bay. Or Apple Store refurbished. We don't need no stinkin' netbooks when we have the iPhone and iPhone touch. Might as well get last generation's Macbook, or iBook, even. Netbooks are for Snow White and the Seven Dwarves.

Nov 02, 09 - 02:38 pm Comment from: larryennis18466

I agree with cogitoergomac. I have a iMac, Quicksilver G4, iPhone, iPod Video, iPod Nano and a Apple TV. I was always a Mac user and will always be. The HP Mini I have was the first PC ever I bought because I love computers and I wanted a challenge and feel the gratification in hacking the Mini to run OS X. I wanted to see what it was all about. I even took it a step further, and it not only boots into OS X, it even boots into Windows XP, Windows 7 and Linux. It quad-boots. It was a great project. But to tell all of you, like the iPhone, there will be a work around and someone will be able to put 10.6.2 on a netbook and post it on the web how to do it.

I always find it interesting that the people who yell the loudest about Apple's "high prices" and "ridiculous profits" are perfectly willing to bend over for Microsoft's nearly 80% profit margin on Windows, Windows Server, and Office.

Os X Netbooks are cooooolllll! Tiny, fling-it-in-your-bag kit. Cheap enough not to be the end of the world if stolen and... powerful enough to watch movies and run pretty hefty Photoshop jobs with speed and ease.

Apple's missing a trick here and is clearly worried all its 'loyal' fan base are so loyal they're falling over themselves to get kitted out with mini Dells, HP's and Samsungs

I agree completely with cogitoergomac. I have been a Mac user since the original 1984 128k machine, and have a house and office full of them. But when I travel, my MacBook Pro is simply too big to open in a cramped airline seat. I love my iPhone, but it is not suitable to actually doing work (e.g. writing) on a plane. I have toyed with the idea of a Hackintosh netbook computer just to have a small "Mac" to take with me on the plane. Apple has nothing like that and has stated that they have no interest in making such a device.

Nov 02, 09 - 03:43 pm Comment from: Ting

@Predrag: Well said! Impressive analysis of the business model Apple has created.

@KingMel
Apple may be losing some valuable good will from people who enjoy tinkering with new things like MacOS X netbooks, and who might come up with some useful upgrades in the open source software world.

Can you put a headcount on this? And then flow through to calculate (using probabilities) the number of useful upgrades you feel Apple has somehow deprived the open source software world of? And on that point, since when (and more specifically how) has anyone been entitled to benefit off the success of Apple?

@R2
What he really meant was that they can't build one for $99 while jacking the price up to $399 in order to make a fat profit.

Please can you offer some information of substance in support of you claim? Can you the cite source(s) of cost accounting information on which you base the $99 figure? In the absence of third-party sourced that can be independentaly verified, it is hard to take you seriously so get working mate!

@Yakov
Apple won't separate OSX from its factory hardware because it's afraid of having to support the near-infinite number of hardware combinations that Windows and Linux desktop users have.

I don’t think Apple is afraid at all. They are just smart enough to compete while not competing. They have defined their market sweet spot and serve it very well without competition which explains why “Once you go Mac, You never go back.”

Nov 02, 09 - 04:04 pm Comment from: grognard

If Apple reads these comments, then I think they should take notice. I was hoping that the new macbook was going to be a Mac Book Air - LCt. Same design as the air, but in polycarbonate. and come in at the $699-$799 range. They could do this. And it would sell This is almost twice the price of other netbooks,, but half the cost of the pro air, which would get a corresponding performance boost and maintain its price. This would truly be the laptop 'for the rest of use" as it would maintain a usable (for writing /spreadsheet/ presenation, photos, etc.) screen size. Heck even a movie is enjoyable at this size.

I know you can get an Air refurb for a reasonable price, but a MBA LC for $699, is the compliment to ones Ipod or iphone when traveling.... Or for student on the cheap.

Not sure a tablet would fit the bill here.

If they do this they better make their own netbook for $499 in January , damn bastards, I don't care what anyone says they need to make cheaper laptops!!!

Nov 02, 09 - 05:34 pm Comment from: cogitoergomac

@grognard: I agree. An even airier Air would sell well, I think. Side by side, my wife's Air is way more attractive, though it still takes up more room than my Hack.