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The forbidden model between iMac and Mac Pro!!!

I don't buy it. I think it will be a tablet of some kind. "Mac Pro mini" as a name makes no sense as it combines two descriptors for Mac. If there is such a product, why not just give it a classic name like "Macintosh" (not "Mac" anything).

Sep 20, 08 - 12:14 pm Comment from: JAYGEE

Hmm, sounds interesting.

That would make me happy. A Mac Mini Pro would work for me. I have a perfectly good 30" monitor on a dual 1.8 G5. I've been sitting on the fence for about a year now. I just don't see an iMac in my future. Although, the Mac Pro's in the refurbished section seem reasonable sometimes.

Mac Mini Pro makes more sense to me.

Sep 20, 08 - 12:27 pm Comment from: ChamFan

Looks great - I'd buy one definitely!!

Could someone explain something?

People don't want a Mac Pro. It's not a big seller, and the form has not changed in 8 years so they are appealing to a very limited market.

A mini is more of a "switcher box", something to try out the mac environment but you end up having all of these external devices hooked up to it, such as external drives and external media burners...

Why hasn't Apple released a Mac Pro without the extreme workstation features? What is up their butt? People DO upgrade hard drives, and some people DO upgrade video cards. People DO have their own large monitors. Businesses DO have their own monitors and keyboards.

Sep 20, 08 - 12:35 pm Comment from: R

I agree. There needs to be a "tower" of some sort that doesn't require a mortgage or lottery-winnings. A smallish tower could have an upgradeable video card, ram, maybe one extra bay for your stuff-du-jour. It wouldn't have to be the Mac Pro barn that lets you cram a small couch into it.

Apple, I really want one.

The reason for the Mac Pro is simple. Professional audio and video houses need that kind of power. It is not a consumer machine, which is why most don't see demand for it. But it is a big seller to the people that need that kind of power. Could Apple do themselves a favor by offering a lower power tower directed at consumers? Probably, but the Mac Pro is absolutely a necessity to Apples lineup.

Sep 20, 08 - 12:46 pm Comment from: TowerTone

That's odd. I heard it was a software update that turned your Mini into a brick.

That is the last time I go to that "Nine-ish to Noon" rumor site....

I have a iMac Core2Duo 2Ghz, and I've holding to get at least 1 Xeon processor Mac in my desktop. If this is true, I definitively will buy it. Of course I rather prefer a iMac with Xeon processor, but I believe it is not possible by now and the Mac pro is too expensive for me. The processor inside Mac Mini and iMac are mobile processors optimized to produce less heat and consume less power. But the Xeon processor is optimize for performance over heat dissipation (is less hot that G5, but still close as powerful). So a desktop with power will be very welcome.

Sep 20, 08 - 12:51 pm Comment from: Andy

Personally, I think that a 'Mini Pro' tower makes no sense at all. Does anyone remember the iMac? What market do you think the iMac is for? The iMac is the logical choice for those who want desktop computing power without the price premium on the Mac Pros. So the Mac Pro is aimed for more industrial use and the Mac mini as a barebones step into the Mac world.

Now explain why Apple would want to cripple the iMac with a machine that does all the things the iMac already provides?

And for those customization pleas - Steve has said before that Macs 'aren't meant for that', considering his fear is probably being sued by people who no longer are able to enjoy the Mac experience because they botched a parts installation.

How about building your own PC, and creating your own personal Linux distro to run on it?

Sep 20, 08 - 12:53 pm Comment from: Bitjockey

I'm with you guys. I don't care what they call it but I need a headless mini tower type unit with a couple of HD bays and a couple of expansion slots for video and audio cards. Such a unit could be used as a home data/media server or a consumer level A/V workstation. The pro's are too big. iMac's are beautiful, but I'll never buy one because the integrated display will outlast the usefulness of the cpu electronics by many years. C'mon Apple how about a computer for the rest of us? (heh heh)

I was waiting for this for 3 years, basically ever since I got my G5 iMac and discovered how limited it was for what I wanted to do.

I finally broke down and got a Mac Pro a month and a bit ago, but if they release this now I'm gonna actually be kind of annoyed...

Sep 20, 08 - 12:55 pm Comment from: Bitjockey

@Andy

Read my post above

Sep 20, 08 - 12:56 pm Comment from: Rainer

I don't believe it.
What I could believe would be the existence of an easier-to-service MacMini for Enterprise customers.
The MacMini is about as much computing-power as 95% of the users in the Fortune 500 companies need - a 4 GB Mini with X3100 or successor would lift that number to 99%.

Sep 20, 08 - 01:00 pm Comment from: Andy

@ Bitjockey

I still don't see the point, though. If you have the money to burn - why not shell out for a Mac Pro and get what you want? If the iMac is so 'inadequate', then pester Apple into releasing a more powerful model - which they have repeatedly done.

The iMac is the consumer level machine aimed at businesses and individuals who want desktop power but not the price of a Mac Pro. The Mac Pro is for those who want an industrial machine for crunching tasks or individuals who want to boast about their performance.

http://flickr.com/photos/superfrunny/2862211309

The defining element of a Mac Pro, in addition to its processing power, is its almost infinite upgrade path using cards, etc etc.A “Mini” will obviously not be upgradable in the same way, so calling it a “Pro” is a contradiction in terms, at least as far as Apple is concerned.

But no matter how you look at it, some people don't want all-in-ones. Whether they already have a nice monitor, don't like the iMac's glossy screen, or want to be able to get inside the computer, these people including myself just won't buy them.

People really aren't thinking here. It won't necessarily be called a "Mac Pro Mini" even if it exists so getting your underwear in a bunch over that or disbelieving the rumour because of that name is just stupid. Many other recent rumours have pointed to a redesign of the Mac mini and aluminium is an obvious choice. If this "brick" is not a tablet (I still think it may be), then it's just the redesigned mini in an aluminium shell. This need not have anything to do with the fabled "mini-tower" that everyone who is still locked in PC world, thinks people want.

The Mac mini is already highly serviceable as it is. If they made it open up a bit easier, and added a discrete video card, it would be exactly as described here, but it still wouldn't be the mini-tower or "Mini Mac pro" that everyone always angst's over.

In other words this is a story about a possible update to the Mac Mini that someone is just confusing everyone about by using the term "Mac Mini Pro" and conflating the idea with the so called "mini-tower." Why would Apple produce a product in direct competition to one of it's number one selling products, i.e. - the iMac? Makes no sense.

Dave: But no matter how you look at it, some people don't want all-in-ones.

Some being the operative word. The traditional desktop market is shrinking around its main bastion: the gaming PC. Which the major game producers have begun to abandon.

Very few people actually use the expansion card feature any more today — USB and other developments have wiped out most of that former market. So for most purposes except the most extreme ones even laptops are actually sufficient expansion-wise for probably 95% of the user base.

Sep 20, 08 - 01:35 pm Comment from: HazMatt

I'm sorry Andy, I have to dissect your entire post...

"Personally, I think that a 'Mini Pro' tower makes no sense at all. Does anyone remember the iMac? What market do you think the iMac is for? The iMac is the logical choice for those who want desktop computing power without the price premium on the Mac Pros."

The iMac is in a completely different class than the Mac mini or Mac Pro; it has an integrated display, and the others don't. And I'm not alone in disqualifying the iMac from consideration based on the fact that the display is hopelessly married to the rest of the computer. I'd like to keep my monitor when it comes time to upgrade my computer, thank-you-very-much.

"So the Mac Pro is aimed for more industrial use and the Mac mini as a barebones step into the Mac world."

So now that I've convincingly disqualified the iMac as an option, you would agree that we have a need for a mid-range computer, i.e. this 'Mac Pro mini'?

"Now explain why Apple would want to cripple the iMac with a machine that does all the things the iMac already provides?"

I don't understand why you think the iMac would be 'crippled' in any way by the introduction of this new 'Mac Pro mini'. Perhaps you mean "cannibalize iMac sales"? If so, that is possible, but a more diverse product line would certainly fill what many perceive to be a gap in the lineup.

"And for those customization pleas - Steve has said before that Macs 'aren't meant for that', considering his fear is probably being sued by people who no longer are able to enjoy the Mac experience because they botched a parts installation."

If that's really what all-knowing Steve said, I'd take issue with that. The people who want to customize (upgrade) their Macs should be able to do so if they wish. If Apple wants to make generally non-upgradeable Macs, that's their prerogative; I understand how tightening down some hardware components can result in a better machine – I get it. But all I really want to do is upgrade my graphics card a few years from now.

"How about building your own PC, and creating your own personal Linux distro to run on it?"

No thanks.

p.s. Regarding your last post, iMac ≠ headless Mac; isn't it obvious?

Sep 20, 08 - 01:37 pm Comment from: R

Want better video. If it's not through upgradability, then let me by it from the start. Integrated graphics suck.

Just another thought:

A "Mac midi" would be exactly what most other manufacturers already offer. It would be the exact opposite of a "product which the other manufacturers cannot match".

Sep 20, 08 - 01:52 pm Comment from: studentrights

I can tell you one thing it will cost between $1500 and $2,500, 4GB RAM limit, and a swappable graphics card. No sots other than that.

"This need not have anything to do with the fabled "mini-tower" that everyone who is still locked in PC world, thinks people want."

I take issue with that. I've been a mac user my entire life and I still think this is a good idea.

Sure, the iMac is fine for most users. Yes, this would serve a relatively limited market. But the market it would appeal to is still significantly larger than the one that exists for the Mac Pro.

Sep 20, 08 - 02:01 pm Comment from: BC Kelly

Whatever you want to call it

Whatever it may do

Whatever it may have

It will still be a Mac



And if the Baby

Comes in at $400-500

Change the Game

Change the World™



BC

Sep 20, 08 - 02:03 pm Comment from: flappo

it's obv

it's the pc from i'm a pc

thank gawd ms are doing our ads for us

Sep 20, 08 - 02:08 pm Comment from: Madmax

I don't believe Apple is going to let the rush to Micro PC's that use Atom processors in $300 dollar sub-notebooks go unchallenged.

Students on tight budgets are going to compare ibooks - excellent as they are - with much cheaper sub-notes that will do internet and basic tasks.

Apple has the scaleable OS and the portable screen technology to blend the two with internet/phone connectivity. Hence the comment about offering something which the market can't match but which will initially hit revenue as it carves market share.

Sep 20, 08 - 02:10 pm Comment from: Andy

@HazMatt

Well, the market for the iMac has to come from somewhere, otherwise Apple would be fools to waste money on it, right? And whilst Steve may very well be 'all knowing' (heh) - his opinion DOES matter when it comes to Apple - since he calls the shots!

If Steve has a personal dislike of customizing your Mac, you can bet that'll filter down into the product design, one way or another.

I just don't see what a Mac mini tower would achieve, since Apple already have a solid desktop lineup. And, presumably, since you want to customize your Mac, you'll know a thing or two about computers, right? There's nothing aside from the warranty forbidding you to do that to any current Mac machine.

Apple's ultimate philosophy is to make simple elegant consumer machines anyone can learn within a matter of hours if not minutes, and be unencumbered by thoughts of drive/graphics cards etc upgrades.

And honestly, if the demand for this customization is so great, then why aren't you pestering Apple/Steve into creating this dream machine?

All that said, I understand where you're coming from, but don't think Apple is the company you're looking for, in that regard. If hobbyists are say, 2 to 5% of the Mac market then it's likely they'll be passed over in favor of the iMac buyers.

Thank you for taking the time to dissect my original post, anyhow.

Jacob: Yes, this would serve a relatively limited market. But the market it would appeal to is still significantly larger than the one that exists for the Mac Pro.

It would be a relatively uninspiring "me too" product, aimed at a shrinking segment of the market where the margins are so razor-thin even now that PC manufacturers are forced to shovel crapware onto their products to eke out any profit at all.

Plus it would require Apple to expensively introduce a third hardware platform in addition to the mobile and server chip sets just for that new and particularly unprofitable machine.

Well, even lead ducks will "fly" for a bit if you just toss them hard enough...


A real "wow" product could be a "Mac pad", successfully marrying the easy-to-use but limited iPhone OS X and the more complex but flexible Mac OS X. And if they should actually be able to pull that off, that would indeed be "a product which the competition will not be able to match" — both for its software (Mac+iPhone OS X) and hardware (custom chips from P.A. Semi). It would also be plausible that it might need some subsidies (lowered margins) at first as announced...

Sep 20, 08 - 02:18 pm Comment from: DLMeyer

R, get off my turf, dude.
The pictured "MacMini Pro" doesn't meet what I've specified in the past (or what R specified here) thus does not meet my needs. I need a second internal HD. I need up to a minimum of 4GB of RAM and would prefer that to be in four slots - matched pairs are fine, thank you. And I insist on a graphics card, interchangable! Four cores - 1x4 or 2x2 - are not ruled out by the form factor shown, but seem unlikely - and that is highly desirable.
My opinion.

If two drives don't fit, it's a Mini II. If it has what DLMeyer wants, it can be called a Pro.

Sep 20, 08 - 02:40 pm Comment from: DogGone

There certainly is a niche for a low cost desktop that is upgradable. I paid $1600 for a discontinued G4 Sawtooth in 1999. It is still running with 10.5 and drive and CPU upgrades. I use it mainly as a file server now.

Whilst the upgradability is useful I would prefer cheaper pricing on the Mac Mini. To be able to replace my G4 for $400 would be sweet. Disc space is easily solved with external drives.

Sep 20, 08 - 02:40 pm Comment from: Macintosher

This is just possible...

Sep 20, 08 - 02:52 pm Comment from: alansky

Personally, I've been hoping for a Mac Mini Pro since the original mini first appeared. Now that iMacs come only with glossy screens, I have little doubt that many pros and prosumers would welcome an alternative to the monster Mac Pro. The Apple Cinema Display line is also in serious need of a makeover, however. I don't know how Apple justifies excluding their pro users from the video conferencing features of OS X. Standalone iSight cameras are out of production, scarce and expensive.

Sep 20, 08 - 03:02 pm Comment from: Andy

I suppose, come to think of it, the alternative to adding a new Mac to the lineup would be to remove the Mac mini altogether in favor of a 'mini pro' that could hook up to a Cinema Display and so on?

"It would be a relatively uninspiring "me too" product, aimed at a shrinking segment of the market where the margins are so razor-thin even now that PC manufacturers are forced to shovel crapware onto their products to eke out any profit at all."

I'm not sure you understand what I want. Not a $500-1000 piece of crap like what most PC manufacturers sell, but a $1800-2400 tower with a smaller form factor than the Mac Pro but still large enough to put in a decent quad core (2 x 2 or 1 x 4), a second hard drive, 4 ram slots, and one or two PCIe slots so you can upgrade graphics and maybe add a sound card or tv tuner or something. This would position it between the iMac and Mac Pro. There are so many high end features on the Mac Pro that most people don't need, yet for someone who DOES NOT WANT AN ALL-IN-ONE (like myself and many others), it is the only option except for the mini. I can only assume that anyone who doesn't see the need for this market isn't a serious computer user, because the iMac, while great for most people, is still a very limited machine in some ways, and the Mac Pro, while an awesome machine, has many expensive features that only a select few need. A balance between the two would be a good computer.

Apple doesn't have to innovate their mac hardware that much. Really, most of what they have done hasn't BEEN particularly innovative. They've made progressively smaller and sleeker all-in-ones, progressively more powerful towers, and progressively smaller and sleeker laptops. The innovation is the software (OS, etc.), the hardware and design quality, and the integration of hardware and software. A tablet would not be innovative, there are tons of tablets (touch and otherwise) out there. For the most part they are niche products and will probably remain that way for the forseeable future no matter what Apple does. Touch is a gimmick on anything much larger than an iPhone, or for most computing tasks when compared with the utility of a keyboard and mouse.

"Plus it would require Apple to expensively introduce a third hardware platform in addition to the mobile and server chip sets just for that new and particularly unprofitable machine."

How would this be expensive? The chipset and processors already exists. Intel has a desktop lineup. This doesn't make sense.

Sep 20, 08 - 03:37 pm Comment from: Romeodawg

Couldn't the brick also be the next gen Apple TV? What's missing now on Apple TV is videoconferencing and Remote Control access of your Mac... If you could power up the ATV so you get Apple TV, plus iChat video, plus complete access of your computer via the TV (like Timbuktu, iChat Screen share, etc.), that would seem to bring an actual solution to a current problem. And it's the marriage of the mini and the current Apple TV (which also seems long overdue for an upgrade...)

Sep 20, 08 - 03:39 pm Comment from: Grifterus

How about a new Cube? I love the design of those machines.

I still want one for my collection, hehe!!

Apple needs a small tower for enterprise use.

@ DL Meyer

You just described a Mac Pro. If you're intention was to argue for a mini-tower, that's not it.

Please just let us use third-party GPUs in Mac Pros...

...or even better please support SLI/Crossfire on Mac Pro mobos and still let us use any nVidia or ATi GPU in them.

Apple's new found love of GAMING for iPhone could maybe be reflected in their Mac Pro range?

Just pointing something out. Sure, the "Brick" could be one of these things discussed, but generally speaking, code words are just that -- CODE words --, that do not give clues about the actual product's qualities. A "brick" could be anything... literally anything. Not brick-like, or brick-shaped in any way. Heck, it could be software.

That said, I really do want a mid-tower headless Mac! Been waiting for one for a long time. Those of you who say it's a bad idea obviously just don't see the need for such a product themselves, but there's a _lot_ of us who still want one. If they don't release one this year, I'll end up getting a Mac Pro. The Mini doesn't cut it, and I don't want an iMac for all the reasons outlined above, and other reasons as well. And, if you don't want an iMac for these reasons, they are very good reasons, so don't discount them please. Though, it's a fantastic machine for lots of people, as is the Mini!

@ping: I'm not sure you understand what I want. Not a $500-1000 piece of crap like what most PC manufacturers sell, but a $1800-2400 tower with a smaller form factor than the Mac Pro but still large enough to put in a decent quad core (2 x 2 or 1 x 4), a second hard drive, 4 ram slots, and one or two PCIe slots so you can upgrade graphics and maybe add a sound card or tv tuner or something.

Take the Mac Pro, cancel one of the two quad-core Xeons in product configuration and — boom! — you're already there!

There is no step three (nor really a dire need for another product line).


@ping: Apple doesn't have to innovate their mac hardware that much.

Not at all, actually. See above.


@ping: Really, most of what they have done hasn't BEEN particularly innovative. They've made progressively smaller and sleeker all-in-ones, progressively more powerful towers, and progressively smaller and sleeker laptops. The innovation is the software (OS, etc.), the hardware and design quality, and the integration of hardware and software.

Maybe, if we leave the iPhone / iPod Touch platform aside for a minute.


@ping: A tablet would not be innovative, there are tons of tablets (touch and otherwise) out there.

And how many of these have a usability comparable to an extrapolated iPhone platform?

There are hundreds of cellphones out there. Why did Apple have to add yet another?

A touch user interface is no panacea, but a really usable internet pad above the size of the iPhone has its legitmate uses. Whether there could be a market big enough to justify the development effort is of course another matter.


@ping: For the most part they are niche products and will probably remain that way for the forseeable future no matter what Apple does.

I would be careful extrapolating from the current state of affairs. The same could have been said above the iPhone (and has been said!).


ping: Plus it would require Apple to expensively introduce a third hardware platform in addition to the mobile and server chip sets just for that new and particularly unprofitable machine.

@ping: How would this be expensive? The chipset and processors already exists. Intel has a desktop lineup. This doesn't make sense.

Oh yes, it does! It would be an entirely different motherboard, different chipsets, different chips with separate lifecycles to integrate in Apple's product strategy and release schedules and above all it would create a long-lasting dependency exactly because of its expandability - there would have to be additional driver variants, extensions APIs; there would be additional transition headaches and support needs when people would expect (and demand!) that their internal cards should be compatible across models (Mac "midi" / Mac Pro) and across successive models even within the same lines...

This would be a complex, worrisome, weakly margined and at best (for Apple) marginally useful product.

Of course I could be wrong, but with a shrinking desktop market overall this is about the last thing I'd expect to actually materialize. It would be a conservative, conventional and just marginally attractive product.

Jobs will gadly leave this segment to his PC competitors.

Sep 20, 08 - 04:29 pm Comment from: Brau

There are a few market factors Apple simply must reply to regardless of what new features they may pioneer:

In my experience, switchers are often people who bought PCs because everyone else had one and most admit to knowing nothing about computers. Out of a deeply ingrained fear of viruses, they don't use their PCs for much and as such can't envision using one for anything other than email or internet surfing. They want the promise of freedom from malware but ultimately cannot imagine the Mac experience being any different so they want an inexpensive desktop to leave in "the other room". Clean design, style, and all-in-one seem to mean a lot to them.

Out of the five people I have convinced to switch over the last 2 years, three bought iMacs, one bought a MacBook Pro, and only one bought a Mac Mini (but later upgraded to 17" MBP). For them, Apple simply needed to have the right products available when these people decided to make the jump as they were so disillusioned with MicroSoft that the cost was not really a factor.

For many youth it is a very different story. When they leave home they don't have money and it is at this time they will justify whatever low price they can afford. Right now the Windows assemblers have a wide advantage in this market. Sub-$500 laptops are beginning to make a serious dent in overall PC sales and Apple's current line doesn't have an answer. As I discovered with my niece, she would pay a little more for a Mac but not 2-3 times the price of a Windows based machine, hence she is eying an Acer laptop. Apple simply must deliver a small laptop around $600 or so if they want to sell to her ilk.

SO.... I will lay a bet on Apple releasing a small laptop and/or tablet and bet against them putting any significant R&D;into a Mac Mini. It will be modeled after the MacBook Air but smaller and cheaper. It will have a new killer feature, but like the MBA also will have all the pundits squawking over expanded networking/hardware restrictions put in place in order for Apple to protect their iTunes assets.

Gonna be fun to watch!

The Mac mini was introduced as low cost option directed at PC users wanting to try OS X side by side with the PC before they made the big switch.

The Mac Pro mini is designed to replace that PC. There are rumors that the price points on the new MacBooks and the "Brick" will be something the competitors will not be able to match for their performance levels and OS benefits.

The "Brick" and the new MacBooks will be the machines that PC users have been waiting for to make finally make the switch.

"We will be delivering state-of-the-art new products (...) that our competitors will not be able to match." - Apple CFO Peter Oppenheimer, July 21, 2008

July 2008?? Apple's been doing this since April 1976....

Sep 20, 08 - 05:18 pm Comment from: HMCIV

Well crap! There goes my scam to sell Mac Mini "Pros" which are actually bricks painted grey.

Why is it so hard to screw people over?

Any word on pricing?

An iMac motherboard in a $799-$999 MiniPro case just might have a market.

I agree with others here: give it user-accessible RAM, drives, video card & vRAM, and maybe one open slot. And please have an easy-open case, unlike the current Mini's pry-and-pray.