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Jan 04, 09 - 12:04 pm Comment from: loloontheair

Hopefully those new batteries won't expand to double size as my current 17" did otherwise it might create more damage than preventing trackpad to work.

Jan 04, 09 - 12:35 pm Comment from: theloniousMac

Let's see.

House payment or MacBook Pro?

Jan 04, 09 - 12:41 pm Comment from: alansky

A non-removable battery for the MacBook Pro, the King Kong of portable workstations??? You gotta be kidding!!! Why not offer it in pink, while they're at it?

@ loloontheair

One of the biggest advantages of the type of battery they are talking about here is that it doesn't swell, explode or anything dangerous at all. It's not only more powerful, it's non-toxic, non-explosive, etc. The only downside is the cost and the need to recycle the silver in the batteries. Putting it into the top of the line product of the top of the line computer maker, solves the whole price issue, making the batteries non-removable helps with the recycling.

from the manufacturers website:

"The company is currently working with leading manufacturers of notebook computers, cell phones, and smart phones to incorporate silver-zinc technology in next generation products. A silver-zinc battery option will be rolled out in a major notebook computer in 2009. The battery is slated to be released as a premium extended life battery. The notebook will be 'dual chemistry enabled,' which means it will work with either silver-zinc or lithium-ion batteries. ..."

It better last a LONG time if you can't swap it out.

Jan 04, 09 - 01:00 pm Comment from: Predrag

The laptop battery issue is pretty much of the same magnitude as the cellphone battery issue. Virtually every laptop has a removable one, just like every cellphone (except the iPhone, of course). Another fact is that practically nobody who has a laptop/cellphone with a removable battery has ever removed it in the lifetime of their laptop(s)/cellphone(s). If they actually held onto that laptop/cellphone for that long for the battery to die on them, they either bought a new after-market (or OEM) battery, or bought a new replacement laptop/cellphone.

If this non-removable battery means much longer battery life, then I say do it across the entire portable line. I'd love a MacBook with 7-hour battery life.

Jan 04, 09 - 01:03 pm Comment from: MichaelD

...and if I hear ONE word about glossy screens from ANY of you...

Jan 04, 09 - 01:13 pm Comment from: Cubert

A battery that is not user replaceable will be a show stopper for MANY people.

GLOSSY??!!! NOOOOOOooooooooooo......

Jan 04, 09 - 01:18 pm Comment from: Predrag

The MANY people for whom the non-replaceable battery would be a show-stopper represent minuscule percentage of Apple's buying population, especially now, since majority of ordinary consumers are buying laptops as their primary and only home computers, which end up sitting on an end table for the most of their useful life, expending about 20 charge-discharge cycles per year.

This is especially true for (almost) un-luggable 17" monster laptop.

Jan 04, 09 - 01:22 pm Comment from: doc

The screaming from a bunch of people, people who couldn't FIND much less replace a car battery, about how terrible this is will be overwhelming.

wow, Apple really keeps in touch with reality as of lately. Glossy-only on the MB Pros is so remarkably stupid that it hurts, phasing out the superior FireWire technology is crazy, and now batteries that can't be replaced/swapped? Can we pretty please get someone back at Apple who actually works with their machines and doesn't only think about cost efficiency and ROI all day long? Thankyou.

Jan 04, 09 - 01:38 pm Comment from: Predrag

Clara:

That is PRECISELY what has happened at Apple. Unlike Dell, HP and others, who ONLY think about ROI, Apple listens to their customers. They finally figured out what people need and what they DON'T need and are phasing out the stuff that's collecting dust on 99% of their machines once they get into the consumers' hands. This may be unfortunate to a very small group of professional users who had very specific needs which will no longer be addressed by Apple's hardware. For the rest of the Apple-buying world, this will mean slightly cheaper hardware (or slightly better, for the same price).

One real downside to having a laptop that you can't remove they battery is that you cannot kill all power to the machine.

So if you want to clean it, or upgrade RAM etc...
You will have to do it with the machine being hot.
Sounds like a good way to fry your laptop.

Jan 04, 09 - 01:43 pm Comment from: Predrag

In other words, Apple has been selling cars with heated seats to people living in Florida. I'm sure someone in Florida would have the need for those heated seats, but for the vast majority, they'd be paying for something they would never need.

I never use FW. I never use internal optical drive on my laptop (I have my iMac for that). I never replaced or swapped battery on any of my portables in the last 10 years. And you have to admit, vast majority of average laptop users are just like me. I really have no need for those heated seats and I feel I'm needlessly paying for them.

Predrag:

Apple better listen to all the pros who are the most likely buyers of the high end machines.

Apple already screwed us on the 15" - ONLY GLOSSY SCREEN.

If that is the case with the new 17" I won't replace my present 17" with a new one - I will instead buy the last incarnation of the present 17 WITH A MATTE SCREEN..

I've been a Mac user since 1984 - a Glossy screen is a deal breaker for me.

CR

Hookers for the year or macbook pro?

Glossy......YESSSSSSSSSSSSS!

@ Predrag
"....and are phasing out the stuff that's collecting dust on 99% of their machines once they get into the consumers' hands. This may be unfortunate to a very small group of professional users..."

As in: the Mac loyalists who kept Apple alive during dire times. I don't have an issue with changes in the battery; we need new technology there. But I wouldn't diss the small group of professionals, like myself, that kept Apple alive until Jobs could come back and nurse the company back to health.

zot me babty. you little snitch fscjkk

I've never complained about non-user replaceable batteries in the iPhone or iPod, since I value the resulting streamlined design and I end up replacing the phone or laptop long before the battery wears out. But laptops have considerably longer life-spans than cell phones and MP3 players. And when I do decide to replace a laptop - particularly a Mac - I'm counting on the sale of the old laptop to help pay for the new replacement model.

A non-replaceable battery would dramatically lessen the resale value of the laptop.

@Predrag I am one of those people who mainly uses my Macbook Pro at home. Although I don't travel that often with the laptop, after a year and a half of use I can already see a noticeable drop in battery performance - perhaps because the battery accumulates recharge cycles every time you unplug/plug the power cable and every time there's a restart. It's hard to avoid this unless you remove the battery altogether.

Now this 18 month old Mac is a 2.4Ghz machine with 4GB ram, 300 GB HD, and an 8600M GT with 256MB VRAM - so I am NOWHERE near needing or wanting to replace it. And yet I DO expect the battery to require replacement within the year. Regardless of when I decide to sell/replace this laptop, I consider it essential that I can easily replace the battery when needed, and/or that when I sell it, the buyer can also expect to replace the battery if and when needed.

For this reason, I hope and expect Apple will offer a reasonably priced battery replacement service for these new machines, and I hope the recycle value of the worn out battery will help offset the cost of its replacement.

Correction:

"and I end up replacing the phone or IPOD long before the battery wears out."

First of all, anyone who buys any computer without an extended service plan is an idiot. Second, I too much prefer matte but I've seen the glossies in the Apple Store and the glare is not at all as bad as described- the screen too is gorgeous. I'd still go for matte, but glossy isn't a deal-breaker- lack of firewire is. Also, I'd hope that the battery life is significant, and doesn't fade year-to-year. And, of course, we're all getting upset whether or not we're in the market for this machine and before it's even been officially announced. I think everyone should just chill till we know facts rather than rumors. And that DEFINITELY includes Steve's health!

I find it amusing how some self-acclaimed experts always try to point out to others why no one (read: ordinary consumers) actually needs THIS or THAT particular feature on whatever product that is currently being crippled by Apple. Yet, as soon as Apple's tiny marketshare is being discussed, these same people are up in arms, quickly pointing out the importance of the few who actually work with Apple's os/machines - and how these "individualists" happens to actually be something of a very important driving force in the industry. Go figure...

Let's face it, today's Apple is all about gaining market share. Hence, they have to cut costs wherever it's possible. Or does someone really believe that going all-glossy was a technical or maybe aesthetically related decision?

@t.parson Apple is not just "cutting costs." This design change, if true, would mainly provide a more streamlined machine with better performance, since the battery could be larger and irregularly shaped and would not use up extra space for a latch mechanism. Just compare an iPhone to the competition and you'll see the benefit.

Regarding Mac fans being up in arms whenever "Apple's tiny marketshare" is impacted by the loss of a feature, I think this is perfectly justified. Macs are not, and should not, be designed for the lowest common denominator: the ignorant, cheapskate knuckle draggers who think a $500 Dell is comparable to a $1300 Macbook. While it's great that the masses are finally realizing the VALUE of Apple products, it's important that Apple never alienate its core customers. To do so would eventually result in Apple becoming another Dell or HP, which would ultimately doom the brand.

Was the cigar Bill put in Monica meant to be removable?

Or was it meant to last a lifetime?

I wouldn't have no problem with apple pulling all these freak decisions to streamline their machines for the homeuser crowd - as long as they'd give us professional users decent alternatives. However, they don't.

@$64K question, I imagine it was only expected to last long enough to get the job done, but I suspect removability was also a requirement.

Chris-
Chill out and get film for the glossy screen.
I don't know whether these glossy screen absolutists are crazy, lazy, ignorant, or just looking for something to tear their hair about, but THERE'S A CHEAP AND EASY SOLUTION TO YOUR PROBLEM.

@Nathan,

let's see, you did apply a matte-film to a glossy MBP 15' and compared it next to a last-gen (original) MBP 15' Matte and you're not really sure what the fuzz is all about? Honestly?

Let me guess, you need a dog when you're crossing the street, right?

I am on my second battery for my macbook, until ultra capacitors become widespread batteries need to be removable.

@peragrin How old is your Macbook?

These new batteries better represent a BIG technological breakthrough if they will no longer be user replaceable! I'm reserving judgment until the facts come out, but user replaceability would be a LOT to give up for only a minor enhancement to performance. Anyone who flies between the coasts, or to Europe/Far East, for business counts on being able to swap out batteries during the flight. Similarly, my 4.5 year old 1.33 GHz Powerbook G4 continues to function well as a second laptop only because I've been able to buy a new battery for it after the original lost much of its ability to hold a charge.

A non replaceable battery! This is the iPod fiasco all over again! Once the word got out that the iPod had non replaceable batteries the sales fell off to practically zero! The same thing will happen to the 17" MacBook Pro! Mark my words! iCal it right now!

Same thing happened to the floppyless iMacs and the firewireless MacBooks!

Get real. A 17" MacBook Pro with a 7 to 9 hour battery life will sell big time. What PC with 2 batteries lasts that long?

Jan 04, 09 - 05:10 pm Comment from: justme2

Predrag: One of the first purchases I made when I got my MacBook last year for my birthday (or was it two years ago?) was an extra battery for the machine; I do a lot of traveling and there are times when I need to work but can't find a place to plug in, so an extra battery is vital.

I use the optical drive in my MacBook to install software, especially if I'm on the road, and to watch DVDs that I purchase while traveling (watched part of a Disney bio that I purchased while in Disneyland just last week).

I use the FireWire port to transfer photos downloaded from my Nikon D60 to my eGo drive, and then plug that drive into my iMac to save the photos to my mega-storage drive.

Just because you don't use that stuff doesn't mean no one needs it.

I'll take a wait and see attitude on the battery issue, but the non-replaceable battery pretty much talked me out of trying to wheedle a MacBook Air out of my spouse. (I've gotten used to the glossy screen on the MacBook so that's no problem.)

Jan 04, 09 - 05:15 pm Comment from: justme2

@Al -- You may be right that a laptop with 7 to 9 hour battery life will sell...but how long will your laptop spend at the Apple Store waiting for a new battery? I've had friends who've just gone out and bought new iPods rather than dealing with the hassle of battery replacement...you can't do that very easily (or cheaply) with a MacBook Pro. And if that laptop is your only computer, you're pretty much SOL if they're out of batteries when you need one.

@justme2 Apple offers same day in-store battery replacement service for the Macbook Air for $129, the same as the price of a Macbook Pro battery alone. I'd say that's pretty reasonable.

a very small group of professional users who had very specific needs (...) will no longer be addressed by Apple

Isn't that the very definition of Apple's pro market??

Non-removable battery? High gloss screen? All for Apple's high-end pricing?
A sub-$1000 Gateway running Vista (yes, VISTA) looks better every day.

Apple offers same day in-store battery replacement service for the Macbook Air for $129

That same Gateway's battery can be swapped out within seconds and for free.

Now don't get me wrong here, I HATE fscking PCs!!!
But when Apple's doing their best to screw themselves (again), it's time to shop around.

Jan 04, 09 - 06:01 pm Comment from: Derek in Milan

Swapping batteries.

No-one does it - its another usage fantasy, popular amongst wannabee execs flying around the world in economy where there are no power outlets.

'But I have to work for 8 hours miles from a power outlet!'

Then buy a bloody generator.

More CRAP written about batteries on this page than a reasonable person can stand.

@ still confused, You're still confused.

Apple charges $129 for the battery replacement. Period. That includes the battery itself and the labor.

If an integrated battery gives you the battery life of two user-replaceable batteries, all in a package that is slimmer and sleeker, then that's a benefit not a drawback.

Glossy screens have been discussed to death. I've owned both and I'm perfectly happy with the glossy, in fact I prefer it.

Apple does not have "high end pricing". Their prices are competitive with those of comparable machines on the market. A sub $1000 Gateway POS running Vista is not in any way shape or form comparable to a Macbook.

I'm not 100% happy with everything Apple does, but if you're going to complain, at least have something valid to complain about.

Jan 04, 09 - 06:13 pm Comment from: Derek in Milan

Actually, more CRAP written on this page than a reasonable man can stand - period.

It must be time to close down the Club of Apple and the Club of PC and start to just live again, using whatever computer makes you happy.
Does anyone really CARE anymore? Its all about Google anyway. Apple have dumped MacWorld - no-one cares anymore.


Fantasising about the use you will get from your laptop is a way of justifying your life, your work - its bollocks.

No one 'needs' to work while traveling. In fact the purpose of traveling is to enjoy the ride, not to create a little special place just like your office on a frickin 747. Sitting there like a damn fool staring at a little screen, while life goes by you.

Talk to women, have a drink, read a book, sleep. God help us, you might even THINK.
Whoa, I went too far, sorry.

Idiots.

@Derek in Milan....yes you do indeed go too far. I work sometimes when I travel for various reasons your closed mind didn't think of. One is that I actually save some types of work from the office that is best done during travel. It also passes the time on a 10 hour flight. It helps me get caught up in my paperwork which makes me happier and more relaxed.

The battery I can live with. I am not sure about the screen but I am most unhappy about no firewire. Bad idea as I use firewire a lot (Sony camcorder, various external HDs. I also use the optical drive alot and am stunned that someone said that this is typical. Typical? How do you load software? Music? Ever put on a legal digital copy of a movie? Make a DVD backup?...and the beat goes on. Cripes....get a cheap, stripped down PC if all you do is e-mail and cruise the net.

A pro machine should by its very nature have OPTIONS...as different pros have many different requirements.

"House payment or MacBook Pro?"

MacBook Pro, obviously. The government will bail out the house.

"House payment or MacBook Pro?"

You had a house? You were lucky. All we had was a hole in the ground with a cardboard box for a roof.

I have been using portables since 1993 and i have never owned more than one at a time.

with non-removable extended-life battery

Oh jesus, first glossy screens, removing Firewire ports and now this.

Glossy screens on laptops Just Don't Work™ and neither do nasty dirt collecting anti-glare filters that just peel with temperature and yellow with age.

Firewire ports are a must for large data transfers or cloning your boot drives, which in a laptop is essential because hard drive failure on the road is not a option.

Now we will be limited to a set batter life, no extending it with spare batteries with again is a essential option for some of us road warriors.

Apple has been losing desktop sales, and now they are about to kill their laptop sales.

Why Apple? Why?

Apple offers same day in-store battery replacement service for the Macbook Air for $129, the same as the price of a Macbook Pro battery alone. I'd say that's pretty reasonable.

Reasonable yes if you can get into a Apple Store and out fast without buying Pro Care.

Another thing, Apple DOESN'T have stores on every street corner.

I have to drive 300 miles to get to the nearest Apple Store just to have my battery replaced?

WTF?? :(

Similarly, my 4.5 year old 1.33 GHz Powerbook G4 continues to function well as a second laptop only because I've been able to buy a new battery for it after the original lost much of its ability to hold a charge.

Well now Apple just can't have you making your computer last longer with a new battery now can it?

You see you go to get your battery replaced and then they tempt you with a new computer....

Jan 04, 09 - 08:59 pm Comment from: alansky

The 17-inch MacBook Pro is purchased primarily by pros who need portable power. A non-replaceable battery means you can't carry a spare. DUH??? And glossy screens are gross, regardless of what the peanut gallery thinks about them.

Jan 04, 09 - 09:20 pm Comment from: Predrag

Alansky:

You'd be surprised how small the percentage of "pro" users of 17" MBP actually is. Don't just assume something because you happen to fall into a certain category yourself. The big MBP is most often the desktop replacement of choice for somewhat more affluent ordinary consumers. Instead of getting an iMac, they get MBP. It's big, it has plenty of screen real estate, and you can take it to the john too! For them, none of those issues matter; they like glossy, and they are only vaguely familiar about the existence of some battery inside their computer.

If the battery ends up running for 7-8 hours, and continues to keep charge after three years of moderate use, the discussion of this thread will be mute at best.