MacDailyNews - Where Mac news comes first

Apr 25, 08 - 01:17 pm Comment from: Ampar

Whew. Now I'll sleep better.

I do hope Apple changes some of those licensing terms. While they make some sense, they are more restrictive than MSFT DRM.

No fsking Java please. Time to break this in half forever over Apple's knee.

Java and Flash are the bane of the world. They ensure the worst possible experience on a mobile device. Knife the baby N-O-W.

Steve, thank you for protecting our user experience!

Apple knows what they are doing.

Apr 25, 08 - 01:45 pm Comment from: boyweho

I bet the conversation went a bit like this--
Sun: PLEEEASE, oh god, I'm down on my knees... <grovel, grovel>
Apple: <nothing>

Didn't Sun go public that Apple's next version of OS X would have some kind of HD or filesystem format, and when Apple released it, it didn't, leaving Sun looking kind of stupid...?

You'd think they'd learn not to go public until Apple goes public... Apple doesn't work with companies who can't have private talks and keep them that way...

Apr 25, 08 - 01:47 pm Comment from: ron

"To work with Apple to build a JVM (Java Virtual Machine) for the iPhone and we're sort of moving forward with that."

Just 'sort of'.

That's a really positive 'maybe'.

I'm glad they have not supported java and flash so far. This could be the last chance to get an open standards-based web. The zombies don't seem to care though.

What 'n' said

no java

Apr 25, 08 - 02:20 pm Comment from: Ampar

"Sun: PLEEEASE, oh god, I'm down on my knees..."

I think that was a different but still awkward situation in the restroom in an airport in Minnesota.

Apr 25, 08 - 02:23 pm Comment from: HMCIV

Good news guys. The Java installation will be OPTIONAL. Just because it's out there doesn't mean you have to have it. (Unlike Pokemon.)

Sun is so far behind in their development of an up-to-date JVM for the Mac OS X. Maybe if they were better with that, I could believe them when they're talking about a JVM for the iPhone.

In the meantime, ho hum, maybe they should concentrate their efforts on that Gphone that they're helping with. How's that working for you, Sun? I'm not holding my breath on that either.

Apr 25, 08 - 02:37 pm Comment from: TheConfuzed1

Am I the only one who wants Java and Flash? There's no reason not to give it to those who want it. Make it an optional install and those who would rather not have it, don't have to.

Java is dead

Apr 25, 08 - 02:44 pm Comment from: JadisOne

I thought Sun had its own mobile platform they were developing?

I know I don't want an extra layer of Java crap on my iPhone.

.... I don't understand Mac People... you critizie Microsoft for its monopoly actions, but you encourage & praise Apple for doing the same thing. Its makes no sense. Apple asserts too much control over its products ...AFTER THEY HAVE BEEN PURCHASED! What if Windows Mobile, Blackberry, & Palm required you to only by applications for your device through their stores! There would be a backlash ... its makes business sense for Apple, but its sucks that the consumer won't have the choice to add products such as java, flash, etc. to their device.
I respect Apple for attempting to protect the user experience... but its sucks that they also limit a user's choice with their devices!

Apr 25, 08 - 02:54 pm Comment from: Jim - TIV

@Mac_ATTY ".... I don't understand Mac People... you critizie Microsoft for its monopoly actions, but you encourage & praise Apple for doing the same thing"

and you're point is????

:-p

Apr 25, 08 - 02:55 pm Comment from: Jim - TIV

lol... your

@Mac_ATTY

"you criticize Microsoft for its monopoly actions, but you encourage & praise Apple for doing the same thing. Its makes no sense. Apple asserts too much control over its products ...AFTER THEY HAVE BEEN PURCHASED!"

The reason we give Apple the freedom to have control over our products even after we've bought them is because we know Apple makes terrific things for our products, they put alot of love and care into what they create and what they build that we dont mind if they have a ton of control. We trust them, and we know they can create beautiful software to justify its control.

NO JAVA. Apple knows this. We dont even think about it, the answer is no.

Apr 25, 08 - 03:26 pm Comment from: studentrights

@Mac_ATTY ".... I don't understand Mac People... you criticize Microsoft for its monopoly actions, but you encourage & praise Apple for doing the same thing."

We criticize Microsoft for it's monopoly over the entire desktop operating system "industry" not for its monopoly control of its own products. There is a difference.


"but its sucks that the consumer won't have the choice to add products such as java, flash, etc. to their device. "

Then don't buy it and go use products by other companies that sacrifice user experience for choice, like Windows Mobile and Sybian.

Payback is a bitch... for all those years when Java sucked on OS 9 and lower

If SUN microsystems wrote thier java apps using Apples objective C++ or whatever version of C it is they have authored OSX with, then and only then could SUN microsysytems hope to ever have Java apps running on the iphone.

The down side of that would be that SUN Microsystems would not be able to hawk the same apps to WINCE or SYMBIAN users, something I suspect they would like to do because of the thought of how many W&S;operated phones there are out there...billions!

Greed permeates all crevices, it needs abusiness that has been toasted once before almost to death to recognise the danger.

1995-97, the years that Apple nearly died on the alter of OS licensing.

Beware, Beware the ides of March!!

Apr 25, 08 - 04:29 pm Comment from: Bitjockey

@Mac_ATTY

Microsoft and the box assemblers allow users the freedom to do pretty much whatever they please with their systems. This lack of control is the main reason those systems are so unreliable. When I feel the urge for a tech fix and an all nighter coming on, I go visit my friends with PC's and we customize and install and uninstall, and laugh and tech for hours. it's a great feeling when after a hard days work the new sound card or scanner actually works. Your friend buys you drinks and fixes you a big dinner. I don't mind doing it once in awhile. Of course when all I really want to do is compute, I go home to my Mac's. You may not be able to turn a Mac into a can opener, but you count on them doing a great job on what they were designed to do.

Apr 25, 08 - 04:33 pm Comment from: Bitjockey

Oh yeah. No JVM or Flash on the iPhone please!

I don't mind the idea of compatibility.

Yes! Compatibility is nice!

I pick compatibility.

"Sun continues working on Java for Apple iPhone, iPod touch"

Rick chokes on his cornflakes, calls Stevie J. and says,

"You're not gonna let that happen right?"

It's pretty obvious to us "fanbois" that MOST non-Apple things are quite useless. They were useful as competitive tools against Microsoft (Java, Netscape) but with Apple and Google in charge, most things are pretty useless.

Java as a programming language can step aside because Objective-C 2.0 is just fantastic, and the platforms are validated. Not only will OS X run on the desktop, back-end but also in mobile devices and set-top TV boxes. Done!

As a run-anywhere platform, no need. OS X runs on everything.

Adobe strong armed a lot of people in its day. Time for payback also. What's with the super expensive CS suite? Too microsofty.

As for Microcrap, the reason we let Apple (and for many of us, Google as well) do whatever they want is because we TRUST those companies.

The day Apple or Google screws the trust (why else $100 rebate on the iPhone?) then the hoards will revolt.

For the time being, we are still gunning for MS.

Sun also had its day. Step aside now please. You're just wasting our time and distracting us with crap.

All Java weenies had better jump ship to Objective-C yesterday. Or is the writing on the wall not big enough?

A Geek Analyst Programmer Businessman.

It totally screws up the open standards of the Web.

AJAX should suffice.

Look at where irresponsible choice and competition got the world with falling inline with MS.

Some people need to calm down and think of the bigger picture, stop being part of the "I want it and I want it know, screw the problems in the future" these selfish protagonists fail to understand the time frame it takes to create / push through a required or agreed level of quality and a better standard for everyone, and ... it ain't weeks or months.

If quality and security aren't your goal then buy a PC with Xp or Vista.

Apr 26, 08 - 02:14 am Comment from: TheConfuzed1

Contrary to what most of you seembto think, there are plenty of use whom would welcome both Kava and Flash on our iPhones. If you don't like it, fine; don't install it. But don't act as of you're the voice for everyone. As Apple users, we are supposed to be champions of choice. Please don't sit there and presume to make the choice for everyone.

Apr 26, 08 - 02:19 am Comment from: TheConfuzed1

it's clear to me that I need more practice typing with my thumbs.

This topic's discussions really makes me wonder who is a true Mac fan and WHO IS A SHILL FOR APPLE!.

The idea that people don't want an OPTION or opportunity to use software created on other platform environments really strikes me as unbelievable. I don't see any negative side for the CONSUMER on Sun giving us code that will allow us more choice in software and Adobe giving us more choices in entertainment.

Apple is a company who is acting anticompetitive if they bar Java & Flash from the iPod/iPhone line. You people who don't agree with me really ought to think about NOT BEING A SHILL FOR APPLE. (At least don't make it so obvious.)...

... and get this: I'm a big Apple fan. Demonize me you psychos!

Hope this helps! -
- non-shill

There are plenty of alternative platforms for that java garbage. If Java is so important to you Apple fan or not, go get another damn phone.

Not all "options" make sense. Sun makes hardware, let them figure their own sh$t out.

Another phone eh? Right!

I'm gettin' an iPhone there is no other choice I see out there that is better.

And YOU don't get it...

I am a supporter of CHOICE and the CONSUMER. As such, if Sun wants to implement Java and Adobe wants to implement their Flash the only result I see that could come from it is COMPETITION. Competition is not a bad thing. It is good to have around so that companies don't get too greedy and monopolistic.

There is no other product out there that is even close to the iPhone. When you suggested I use something else I could only think DUMBASS!

RE: "I'm gettin' an iPhone there is no other choice I see out there that is better."

I am currently waiting for an iPhone that reaches the 40 gig. mark. It will then have plenty of space for my media. For now I'm planning on getting yet another iPod (an 80 gigger) for my car commute.

Sorry for insulting you goop but I don't think it is that radical to think of having all of the pie not just what Apple carves for you. Think of the Apple commercial 1984 and what it means to you.

<object width="425" height="355"></param></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/OYecfV3ubP8&hl=en&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

Sun is looking for relevance. We don neeed no stinking Java.

@wha

get the hell outta here what that choice bullsh$t, somebody needs to slap that sugar out of your tank sweety.

and no you are not allowed to have an iPhone. Accept the facts you 3-eyed frog. =]

I think sun is talking about running applications in java, not web sites.

Apple is looking to build the very first viable mobile computing platform.

Apple wants to OWN the new platform which they are currently nurturing, so they are using their own technologies.

Until they have established the iPhone/iPod as the ONLY mobile platform worth developing for, they will NOT let competing languages/platforms play.

Apple is tending its own garden. They have decided to support open web standards (thus no Flash).

It suits them to favor Objective-C because that happens to be the coding language of the multi-touch interface.

Objective-C uses C syntax. So does Java. A decent Java programmer will be able to pick it up relatively quickly.

And Cocoa Touch (iPhone 2 coding interface) is an exquisite trojan horse for Mac desktop development.

They will provide developers an avenue for selling their gorgeous looking, innovative Objective-C multi-touch apps to people who are guaranteed own the hardware that runs the new mobile platform.

And you can either like it or lump it.

Until their platform reaches monopoly status (AND they abuse it when it gets there), people squawking about choice can choose another brand of phone to use.

Because we all have our choices to make.
And Apple chooses not to get fucked-over this time round.

Apr 27, 08 - 02:20 am Comment from: twilightmoon

Wha: "Apple is a company who is acting anticompetitive if they bar Java & Flash from the iPod/iPhone line. You people who don't agree with me really ought to think about NOT BEING A SHILL FOR APPLE. (At least don't make it so obvious.)..."

TheConfuzed1: "here are plenty of use whom would welcome both Kava and Flash on our iPhones. If you don't like it, fine; don't install it. But don't act as of you're the voice for everyone. As Apple users, we are supposed to be champions of choice."

Reality Check: "The blind stupidity of the idiots on these forums never fails to astound me. What is it about choice and competition that you guys hate so much? Do you *like* paying premium prices for limited choice?"

What is at stake here is an open standards compliant, interoperable web without any proprietary hooks that tie it into any one company. That means no Java, no Silverlight, no Flash. Unless those respective companies donate those technologies to the OSS community and relinquish control over them, keep them out of the iPhone.

This is not about Apple, this is about the future of the internet. The iPhone has a very unique chance to push for the adoption of a fully open and standards compliant internet, which many of you above posters want to muck up with a bunch of proprietary crap.

Please step back and think about not today or tomorrow but years down the line. Do you honestly believe the web would not be a better place if it was not owned and controlled by a single company or group of companies that owned the standards that pushed content to us?

For that reason alone, and not because of any Apple worshipping, I am hoping Apple keeps Flash and Java and the rest off the iPhone.

"continues to pursue talks"

In other words, Schwartz will keep leaving messages on Steve's voice mail until he gets a restraining order.

-jcr

"Unless those respective companies donate those technologies to the OSS community and relinquish control over them, keep them out of the iPhone."

I see where you're coming from on that, but there's a far more compelling reason than standards compliance to keep Sliverlight, Java, and Flash off the iPhone. Simply put, they're bloated crap.

There's an outside chance of Adobe beating flash into an acceptable form, but I wouldn't hold my breath. As for Silverlight, why the hell would anyone want to install a bloated knock-off of a bloated pig like Java on your phone?

-jcr

Jeez.
It's so simple. If you don't want Java, then don't download it.
Having a Java for the iPhone is a matter of giving a choice to you, and a choice to developers too.

You don't want choice? You only want what Steve Jobs personally provides unto you. It's weird how Apple users deliberately limit themselves and seem to embrace those limitations.

I'm not as opposed to Java, Flash, or anything else being put on the iPhone. I like the concept of the "program once and play on everything". I've got "ThinkFree" office suites on my PowerBook and enjoy using it instead of "MS Office For Mac" and even "Neo Office".

However, I have seen how far behind Sun is with it's Java Virtual Machine support for the Mac OS X, and can only imagine how far behind the iPhone would be with this. If the JVM was more up-to-date for the Mac, I would be more inclined to take this story more seriously, instead of just another pipe dream and vaporware story.

Just my 2¢.