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Jun 22, 08 - 09:53 am Comment from: MacMarc

It's not a matter of IQ. It's a problem of cognitive distortion. If MDN were smarter, you'd know that.

Jun 22, 08 - 10:00 am Comment from: Journo

MacMarc,

MDN is not blaming IQ per se. If you had a higher IQ, you'd know that.

Also, general stupidity can correctly be attributed to why such pricing schemes work in the first place.

@MacMarc:

Questioning the "smarts" of those behind MDN is a telltale sign of low IQ.

MDN, with their "Takes" and "SteveJack" opinion articles, is consistently one of the best written tech sites on the Web.

If only the average IQ could be few points higher, the world would be so much better off.

Amen!

MDN MW: "Interest" - LOL!

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the old iPhone also include a dock and the new one doesn't. So there is another $50 to tack on. I might be remembering wrong though.

Makes sense...

Typically when buying an expensive non-essential item (looking for a colour A3 laser printer right now), I tend to check the list price, a consumer report or review, a number of stores and also eBay.

Then come up with what my collar and cap limits are and off I go to haggle with someone or other...

Say the new Apple Store in Sydney the other day. Just great!

Forget the psychobabble crap. It is appealing because it gets into the affordable range. And for those who say it cost the same in the long run, I have one word to say....
Lay-a-way...

I am a long time Apple supporter. I have always been intrigued by the innovation that comes out of Cupertino, and have gladly spent my hard-earned money on Apple products. And I will continue to do so.

Having said all that, there is something so un-Apple about this iPhone deal with AT&T;. I really feel like both Apple and AT&T;are taking folks for a ride.

For instance: why should I ~have to~ pay extra for a 3G contract when there isn't 3G service in my region? I should have the option to get it or not.

I've been looking online for a 1 gen. iPhone so that I don't have to pay extra for services I'll never use. The only problem with this is...oh yea, YOU CANT GET THEM ANYMORE through reputable sources such as, oh I don't know, APPLE.

I know there's eBay and a few "iPhone stores" out there, but I am sketchy about buying from them.

So...Apple and AT&T;have forced consumers into services that many may not ever use/need, AND the consumer ~has to~ pay even more for them.

I seriously hope that Steve Jobs was held at gun-point to agree with this current contract with AT&T;. If he did it consciously I feel sorry for him.

Jun 22, 08 - 10:11 am Comment from: R

99% of IQ testing is rubbish. 14% of everyone knows that!

Apple has always been pretty clear-- you want, you pay. End of story. It's just now with AT&T;, they're willing to compromise their old technique for the cellphone model: you want, you pay, and pay, and pay, and pay, and pay... and pay.

Maybe in the future, when the iPhone becomes as popular as the iPod, they can return with a pay up front model with lower monthly rates. Fat chance, but here's to hopin'!

Jun 22, 08 - 10:43 am Comment from: lurker

Dear MDN,

Sadly, average IQ will forever remain average.

Jun 22, 08 - 10:47 am Comment from: fastmemory

@R:

I couldn't agree more. But, Apple and AT&T;are big, big businesses, who know a good thing when they see it, and know most of all how to separate you from a lot of your money, and still leave you smiling as they do it.

So don't hold your breath waiting on price reductions.

$199? HA!!

I needed to put that into my car for gas over the last two weeks. Certainly can't spare it for APPLE!! Damm Demoncrats blocking any attempt for domestic energy production they don't like which is most or ways that can't supply the needs of a growing population like ANWAR, OFFSHORE and NUCLEAR!!

The Saudi's and Kuwaiti's are going to help and boost output, but not the other OPEC nations, in fact they are going to reduce output!!! Just look at the "other" OPEC nations ad you can see what's going on!

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=akNrdSRvoZ2I&refer=home

BEFORE YOU COMMUNISTS SCREAM, Remember, its inexpensive energy that supplies the world economy and prevents inflation, alternate energy is EXPENSIVE ENERGY.

For instance SOLAR costs 35¢ a killawat hour compared to 3-5¢ for oil!!

Democrats want to sue OPEC NOW! HA!!

Jun 22, 08 - 11:02 am Comment from: fastmemory

@Mad:

I'm one of those Damm Democrats, AND live in Florida, and I'm for at the very least limited drilling. But you do realize, don't you, that it will be conservatively 7-10 -and I've read possibly as much as 15 years- before any supplies come on line from any newly opened areas.

You'll probably need to gas up before then.

Jun 22, 08 - 11:02 am Comment from: DLMeyer

R and lurker each seem to have a better understanding of "IQ" than MDN - an "average IQ" will always be "100". By definition. That's what the "100" stands for ... average, typical, NORMAL. And then there's the question of "what IS an IQ?", the answer to which varies depending on the test used to measure it.
Few of those tests measure "social smarts".
Most measure math and other problem-solving smarts.
Few measure neurotic tendencies.
Most measure raw language skills.
Few measure real-world interactions.
Most just measure your ability to get by in a standard "school" environment.
Which in NO way devalues my 2-standard-deviation bonus. Right?

@Bob Sagot,

You are remembering correctly, Sir. Perhaps Apple found that most people didn't like / use their docks, however, I'm betting that is NOT the case from my anecdotal tests.

MDM is exactly right...people...especially in our I want it now, ADD, U.S. society are Sheeple being led around by their noses.

The new iPhone will cost you $240 more for the contract AND $50 for the dock, so $290 plus you'll be needing a new shiny case too won't you.

All this and, as another wise poster put in, you cannot opt out of the 3G network if you don't have it in your area.

Yes...there is a reason, why I can sell my used 2.5G iPhone on Ebay for 2X what it will cost me "now" for a 3G.

People...are stupid...not us of course....Them

yes it's true with the iphone and the contract schemes that come along with it apple has changed sides. before it was: what the customer wants, know it is: what the market demands.

i would be gladly paing 700 euros upfront if i didn't have to pay the ridiculous service fees t-mobile here in germany wants. because so the iphone is too expensive for me over 2 years vs. my samsung + prepaid. not worth it for me.

so this is now round 2 and again no iphone for me. (and that's ironic because it seems to become the most important apple product and the only one which i dont't own.)

oh...for my above post the $290 is w/o the contract uplift...so the actual delta is $490.

Of course there is time value of money, but don't make me bust out my NPV calculations...

DLMeyer is right. Smart people know IQ is bunkum, or should unless their ego needs a little boost! Doesn't measure creativity either, the thing that, when coupled with smarts, leads to innovation.

Jun 22, 08 - 11:13 am Comment from: HMCIV

Questioning the IQ of MDN, MDN posters, people who buy iPhone 2.0s for $199 instead of $599 all indicates you have nothing better to do on a Sunday.

That means your social life is less consequential than everyone who went to church this morning instead of surfing the web.

i meant: now it is what the market demands.

Jun 22, 08 - 11:17 am Comment from: fastmemory

Uh oh, here we go.

Jun 22, 08 - 11:22 am Comment from: BiZarRo BaLlmEr

Surprised there wasn't an additional model added. Maybe in January. I thought I saw a study where women preferred a smaller phone to hold. Narrower.

@Mad Mac Maniac

Take your GOP talking points and go home. Or better yet, learn to think for yourself.

Had Reagan not dismantled Carter's energy policies, alternative energies would be as cheap and as common as gas, coal, and nuclear.

More domestic drilling would not solve anything. The oil companies are already sitting on thousands of leases for drilling that they are not using. Plus, the rigs and ships just don't exist to start more offshore drilling right now anyhow. So any extra oil would be years from hitting the market.

And even then it wouldn't matter, because the high gas prices are not a supply/demand problem. It is due to futures market manipulation by commodity investors. Like Enron a few years ago screwing us Californians and like the housing bubble, this is a case of investors driving the market out of control. This has nothing to do with any kind of shortage nor higher demand. Any increased supply, would simply go onto this commodity market where the prices are being driven up.

The real problem is deregulation (the Enron loophole - look it up). The solution is regulation. Regulation of markets is not communist... not even close. Regulation ensure a free and fair market that is unmanipulated by big money. Gee, that sounds remarkably like capitalism to me! So stop hurling epithets and trying to demonize people and learn a little economics and history.

Watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbdtTGYQBMU
and read this: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/06/17/broadcasts/main4188620.shtml

But you do realize, don't you, that it will be conservatively 7-10 -and I've read possibly as much as 15 years- before any supplies come on line from any newly opened areas.

It's more like 5-7 years, but along with building new fail safe nuclear power plants, a few exotic alternative energy sources. Exploring Oil shale, coal conversion and tapping natural gas, there is LIGHT at the end of the tunnel. Instead of the DEMOCRATS "WE WILL SIT ON OUR HANDS AND HOPE A WHITE KNIGHT CHEAP SOURCE OF ENERGY APPEARS THEN WE WON"T APPROVE IT BECAUSE WE WANT THE GREAT COUNTRY OF USA TO FALL TO COMMUNIST CHINA!!"

GO ahead and sue OPEC, tax the oil companies profits who refine our oil and provide Americans DECENT JOBS and all the other idiotic EMOTIONAL answers that don't solve the problem.

I'm a certified Mensan, the more I get involved in politics, the more I'm convinced the Democrats by and far are just plain raving idiots!

Right now China with a Cuba license are drilling a mere 60 miles from the coast of my house in Florida.

China is the worlds second largest consumer of oil next to the USA.

How long are you STUPID Democrats going to wait?

DRILL NOW!! Not within 10 miles of course, just the outer cont. shelf.

$10 a gal gas (if clueless Obama gets elected) and no alternative electric cars because there is not enough nuclear power plants.

Save the USA, lock up a Democrat on election day!

It is not all Democrats, it is the liberials that give many Democrats a bad name. Reagan Democrats do have brains. By the way I am a Republican and know many democrats with brains, liberials are the one's with a loose screw.

Had Reagan not dismantled Carter's energy policies, alternative energies would be as cheap and as common as gas, coal, and nuclear.

Did you ever research why the energy policies were dismantled?

More domestic drilling would not solve anything. The oil companies are already sitting on thousands of leases for drilling that they are not using.

Hmmm, I wonder why a Oil company wouldn't drill and make a profit on those leases? Perhaps it's not economically viable? Did you bother to ask them?

Plus, the rigs and ships just don't exist to start more offshore drilling right now anyhow. So any extra oil would be years from hitting the market.

Ahh and the population will increase by then as well, more people with more needs to heat their homes, drive their cars to get food and other necessary things. Guess we just fsck them right?

And even then it wouldn't matter, because the high gas prices are not a supply/demand problem.

And China didn't sink a well 60 miles off the coast of Florida because they felt like it.

It is due to futures market manipulation by commodity investors.

Ahh Wall Street and capitalism is at fault lets do communism! Greed is bad, but it's ok for the government to control and ruin everything!

Greed works, it motivates people to do things instead of sitting on their asses. It does have to be watched and regulated as not to cause major problems. But it's a lot better than communism or socialism which has been tried and failed in many countries.

Like Enron a few years ago screwing us Californians and like the housing bubble, this is a case of investors driving the market out of control. This has nothing to do with any kind of shortage nor higher demand. Any increased supply, would simply go onto this commodity market where the prices are being driven up.

Actually the housing bubble was caused by the Fed lowering the prime rate to avoid deflation caused the anti-inflation policies put into place back in the seventies. The devaluation of the dollar in response to massive foreclosures is the cause of high oil prices in the US. I agree more loan regulation is in order now of course. But the Fed wanted a real estate bubble to stimulate the economy into a inflationary trend instead of a deflationary one. A real estate bubble is driven by speculation, naturally you can't too much regulation and expect to stimulate people's greed in the process.

Your view that speculators are to blame is false, they are reactionary to real world information. China is indeed the second largest consumer of oil (cheap energy) in the world. Clinton made China favored nation trade status and thus caused their economy to grow out of control and consume more world's resources, including oil. (also steel, lumber etc etc.)

Before China, America consumed over 70% of the worlds resources, it's these resources that gave the quality of life, security and health you enjoy.

Clinton gave that all away. The Democrats now want to sue OPEC, which includes Saudi Arabia and Kawait, our only friends who are producing more oil.

Most Democrats in my experience have never been in the military or out of the country to see what is going on in the real world.

They are in general clueless.

Jun 22, 08 - 12:34 pm Comment from: Denny

Hey guys this is a mac site. Take you political science and economic policy discussions elsewhere.

Jun 22, 08 - 12:37 pm Comment from: ron

"that it will be conservatively 7-10 -and I've read possibly as much as 15 years- before any supplies come on line from any newly opened areas. "

All these maroon politicians spout the same FUD. If I need a wall, I can't complain that it will take me a month to build it. I MUST start today with the first brick. We NEED more oil dammit!

The average IQ of Internet users is in ballistic free-fall and has been for some time, and it appears there is no end in sight for utterly brainless Mac fanbois.

I think most people will be fine without the dock.

You're absolutely right, . If you don't have 3G in your area, you should not be expected to pay the $30 for 3G service. Those who don't live in places without access to AT&T;3G (and there are MANY) should be able to go with the old $20 unlimited Edge package.

For all we know that might be the case. The intricate details of iPhone 3G plans and requirements are trickling out slowly. So by the time July 11th rolls around, it should all be sorted out and hopefully those outside of 3G areas won't have to pay for it.

Mrbama writes, "Had Reagan not dismantled Carter's energy policies, alternative energies would be as cheap and as common as gas, coal, and nuclear."

This is patent nonsense. Most of those policies were little more than boondoggles. Others involved artificial distinctions like "old oil vs. new oil" that Reagan was right to drop. But I suspect Mrbama is anxiously awaiting a second "Carter" term.

And Mad Mad Maniac reminds us, "Right now China with a Cuba license are drilling a mere 60 miles from the coast of my house in Florida."

Indeed, and it's quite possible any fields will extend from their drill site into those US territorial waters. So they could be pumping out OUR OIL while we sit and cogitate.

But speaking of China, and since this a nominal Mac site, I'll note I'm using my new "Made in China" iMac. (It's all sourced there.) Gotta' admit though, it is NICE. And this is the *base* model!

If congress takes over the oil companies, I'm sure gas will be cheaper and more plentyfil. NOT. Look at the Post office, roads, and the largest employer is government.
When the government does things it becomes a jobs program. Never a profit, never on time. Talk about high gas prices. If the government takes over, I say even higher prices but there won't even be gas at the gas station. Then let the black market begin. I know him, can I please fill my tank and here is $50 for you and $100 for the gas.
ozy

@macmarc: it's actually called 'cognitive dissonance'

anyway, I know quite a few people like that, they don't fill up the gas tank because 'it's too expensive', meanwhile the per gallon price is steadily increasing, if they had at least filled up, they would have gotten the maximum amount of gas at the cheapest price!

now that Apple has established the iPhone as a must have product. Apple can now go for volume. They no longer need revenue sharing.

The App Store is where Apple will make up for the loss in monthly revenue sharing. It is the new MS-Office money maker...

Apple has planned this out nicely. i will buy AAPL when it gets closer to MacWorld 2009. or if it actually crossed 210.

Oh, and if RIMMʻs Touch Blackberry turns out to be another fake iPhone, then maybe investors should ʻshortʻ RIMM too.

Jun 22, 08 - 01:53 pm Comment from: Brau

Wow. An article crammed with bafflegab for the age-old financing scheme of "Buy now, pay later" or "Don't pay a dime until 2009" etc.

I am disappointed Apple feels they need to use deceptive tactics to make sales. Overall I think it breeds mistrust of Apple and cheapens their brand image.

Time value of money. People are not necessarily stupid to spread out costs over time. Makes sense to put off the actual cost of owning a product and lock in the price you'll pay as money will be cheaper down the road. Especially after we all go to church and get taken over by China.

Jun 22, 08 - 02:03 pm Comment from: PowerPhone

More cowbell
Less bucks
That's what it's all about.

Same with oil, mrboma.
Leases don't equate to finds, just the right to it if there is some.
And prices of futures are directly affected by percieved supply for demand.
Also, regulation may not be Communist, but their system was based on regulation and was a complete failure.

Jun 22, 08 - 02:16 pm Comment from: Asmodeus

Amen.

People are stupid, fat, lazy, consuming pigs. Period.

Did I say stupid?

Jun 22, 08 - 02:16 pm Comment from: Arnold Ziffel

@Mad Mac Maniac and Raymond in DC:


Actually, the Chinese are NOT drilling for oil off of FL:

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/40776.html

Jun 22, 08 - 02:55 pm Comment from: shen

"Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the old iPhone also include a dock and the new one doesn't. So there is another $50 to tack on. I might be remembering wrong though."

i got a dock with my first gen...

"And China didn't sink a well 60 miles off the coast of Florida because they felt like it."

MMM nad Raymond, i love this new conservative talking point. the only trouble is i have yet to find someone who can actually show evidence of this drilling china is supposed to be doing.

in fact "On Wednesday, Vice President Dick Cheney gave a speech to the Chamber of Commerce in which he claimed that China, in cooperation with the Cuban government, is drilling for oil “60 miles off the coast of Florida.” “Even the communists have figured out” that drilling for oil is the solution to the energy crisis, Cheney argued.

It’s a talking point favored by the right wing. Cheney was quoting conservative columnist Geroge Will, who wrote on June 6 that China is drilling “60 miles off Florida,” “closer to South Florida than U.S. companies are.” The same day Cheney spoke, Rep. Roy Blunt (R-MO) wrote that Castro was allowing drilling “45 miles from the Florida keys.” Rep. George Radanovich (R-CA) and House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-OH) have also raised the specter of Chinese drilling just off U.S. shores.

The problem, of course, is that the claim is completely false. After his claim was thoroughly debunked in the press, Cheney acknowledged that he had, in fact, lied in his speech, though his statement today offered no apology and issued only a half-hearted backtrack of his original claim.

Cheney’s comments were so egregiously false that a member of his own party took to the Senate floor to correct the record. Sen. Mel Martinez (R-FL) decried claims of “some fabricated Cuba/China connection,” saying they have “no merit.”

so, next time a lying sack of shit repub is about to open his mouth (or type) just think better about it and crawl back into your hole.

Jun 22, 08 - 03:14 pm Comment from: Arnold Ziffel

Thanks, Shen, for the elaboration.

By the way, I heard the Chinese are actually drilling for oil in the

Sea of Tranquility!

MacMarc had it right in the first post when he said: "It's not a matter of IQ. It's a problem of cognitive distortion."

This is how we're programmed to think. If MDN wants to bemoan anything have them bemoan the evolutionary path that created our current brain structure.

Behavioral economics is all about understanding how real people act in real world situations as opposed to how economic man acts in a perfect world. If you think you're immune to making cognitive errors, it's only because you don't know what you don't know.

The book referenced in the article, "Predictably irrational", is a very good read for people who are interested in the topic.

We just have to recognize that it is in our nature to make certain cognitive mistakes and that we can learn to recognize and reduce (eliminate is far too strong a word) the effects of this cognitive error through understanding and practice.

I'll also dispute MDN's statement that: "Apple has priced the iPhone to appeal to the short-attention-span/instant-gratification mentality that's so prevalent today." If you think that instant gratification is a new phenomenon it's only because you don't know any history.

ok if the iphone costs 200. and the new cheapest plan is 160 more. really if you think about it the old iphone cost 400. then really the new 3g is 240 cheaper total.

i meant 40 dollars cheaper

Every time I hear someone mention their Mensa membership I get ready to listen to some stupid .

Didn't anyone tell you that there are appropriate and inappropriate times to spew ideology?

Geeze, try some COMMON SENSE, it'll get you further than bragging about your club memberships.

As far as your comments about the underlings, keep 'em to yourself and I won't have to tell you how ignorant you are...

Jun 22, 08 - 04:01 pm Comment from: MCCFR

Republican politicians lying to serve their own ends…I'm truly shocked and appalled.

They've never done anything dishonest, incompetent or unethical before, except for Watergate, arms-to-Iran, lying about Iraqi WMD and Al-Qua'ida links to Saddam Hussein, politicising the role of US Attorneys, outing Valerie Plame, circumventing the legislation regarding Presidential records by using Republican Party e-mail addresses instead of official Federal e-mail systems. losing several hundred thousand e-mails and awarding uncontested contracts to financial supporters of the Republican Party (which may have resulted in fraud, loss or theft of over $23 billion in Iraq alone).

But other than 35 years of incompetence and dishonesty, they're golden.

Jun 22, 08 - 05:07 pm Comment from: FreddyThePig

If I go to AT&T;and buy some stupid iPhone copycat ripoff phone and get the data plan what do I pay?
Right, I pay $30.00 per month.
So, I'm paying $30.00 per month for data - because - that's the price of the data plan. It's not AT&T;ripping me off; it's not a hidden cost of the iPhone, it's the cost of the data plan. I'll pay it because the iPhone is 3G capable, and if I'm in 3G territory I'll be using 3G. So far I fail to see what's so unfair about this.
And in all this talk I've failed to hear anyone mention that if Apple would have said the new 3G iPhone will be $299 or even $399 - that the basic monthly charge from AT&T;would be right there at $39 for voice and $30 for data.

How many of you people calculate the lifetime cost of gas and then blame the auto dealer for the high "true" cost of the car, or SUV you are buying.

Go buy some crappy Blackberry, or some crappy iPhone ripoff and pay ...... oh, yeah, $70 a month.

Jun 22, 08 - 05:25 pm Comment from: shen

"How many of you people calculate the lifetime cost of gas and then blame the auto dealer for the high "true" cost of the car, or SUV you are buying."

if more people did that, maybe we wouldn't have so many 11-17 MPG cars on the road......

say you drive about the average 12000 miles a year, and get the mid range SUV 15 mpg, that is about $3200 a year in gas at $4 a gallon, isn't it?

so if you drive it to the 10 year warranty, that is $32,000 in gas for a car that costs you what, $25k-$40k? yeah i wonder why truck and SUV sales are down.....

me, i actually did figure the lifetime cost before i bought my iPhone.... that is *why* i bought an iPhone.

Republican or Democrat. They're both sides of the same coin. Vote Libertarian or STFU if you get the same sellout politicians you've had for the last 50+ years! Remember that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. The only truly wasted votes are the ones for Republicans or Democrats. They have no interest in changing anything because they've been bought and paid for by lobbyists.